On 2023-06-19 19:27, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-19, Pizza RAC <pizzaracorders@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> come to the U.S. with Biden in charge no one will ever be able to retire :)
>
> You are delusional if you think only one party is responsible.
>
> Looking at your country from Europe, I am filled with a mixture of
> horror and sadness at what you are doing to yourselves.
>
> The Democrats are destroying your social fabric (look at your major
> cities in general and San Francisco in particular).
>
> The Republicans are destroying your business and intellectual fabric
> in the name of short term profit and the Democrats have no interest
> in reversing that.
>
> Both parties have no interest in getting your debt under control and
> only offer short-term solutions that put off the day of reckoning and
> will make the collapse when it comes just more massive than it would
> be if it happened today.
>
> You are now so weak and cripplied by your short-term thinking, you can
> only threaten China (and bully your traditional allies) with sanctions
> to try and stop China becoming a bigger competitor, instead of competing
> with them as a business rival.
>
> The US is currently in the early stages of the modern day version of
> the fall of the Roman Empire.

I really shouldn't be adding posts to this stupid topic.

Competing with China is nothing like a business rivalry. At some point
this needs to be addressed properly.

https://youtu.be/0xlq4WSpUH8

Johnny

On 6/19/2023 11:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-06-19 16:41, Pizza RAC wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 6:43:08 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>>
>>> Now, my last VMS work seem to have come to an end the 30th June.
>>> So I'll probably never be able to work with this new VMS version.
>>> I was 64 in may -23 so I will probably simple retire...
>>>
>>> Ah well, 30+ years with VMS is not that bad anyway... :-)
>>>
>>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>> come to the U.S. with Biden in charge no one will ever be able to
>> retire :)
>
> Yeah. I guess that concept only exist in socialist countries, like Sweden.
>

I was forced to retire at 61 from the Army and at 65 from the
University. I would gladly go back to work even with my current
health problems because being retired sucks.

Retirement in the US isn't going away. Finding a decent job if
your over 60 (or in many cases even 50) is much more of a problem.

bill

On 6/19/2023 11:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-06-19 16:41, Pizza RAC wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 6:43:08 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>>
>>> Now, my last VMS work seem to have come to an end the 30th June.
>>> So I'll probably never be able to work with this new VMS version.
>>> I was 64 in may -23 so I will probably simple retire...
>>>
>>> Ah well, 30+ years with VMS is not that bad anyway... :-)
>>>
>>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>> come to the U.S. with Biden in charge no one will ever be able to retire :)
>
> Yeah. I guess that concept only exist in socialist countries, like Sweden.

I think that is also possible in a possibly non-socialist country, but it sure
isn't helped by fascist Republicans, and the US seems to growing some of them.

I know this isn't the venue for politics. But I grow tired of seeing the same
old thing over and over again. One would think that supposedly intellegent
humans would sooner or later learn. But apparently not.

In the 1930s a great evil arose. Many bad things happened. And now, 90 years
later, it's happening again.

Racism in the US and elsewhere.

We see attempts to silence political opponents in other countries, but that
would never happen in the USA, right? Too bad nobody mentioned that to the
"dangerous" idiot in Florida.

I guess some in Israel feel it's their turn, and are doing to the Palestinians
what the Nazis did to them. Wonder when they will schedule their "crystal night".

But the biggest thing I'm really pissed off about, "find me 11,800 votes".

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/19/2023 12:33 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> On 6/19/2023 10:41 AM, Pizza RAC wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 6:43:08 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>>
>>> Now, my last VMS work seem to have come to an end the 30th June.
>>> So I'll probably never be able to work with this new VMS version.
>>> I was 64 in may -23 so I will probably simple retire...
>>>
>>> Ah well, 30+ years with VMS is not that bad anyway... :-)
>>>
>>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>> come to the U.S. with Biden in charge no one will ever be able to retire :)
>
> If only the data backed up that baseless statement that the economy suffers
> under a Democrat in the White House.

I will agree with that, to a point. What really amazes me is that with 330
million or so people, we cannot find even one better than the last 2. And it's
looking worse each day.

Just remember, we got Trump because the Democrats were leaning way too far left.
He is their fault. Can't we find anyone in the middle.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of bill via Info-vax
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2023 3:40 PM
> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
> Cc: bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI has released 9.2-1
>
> On 6/19/2023 11:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > On 2023-06-19 16:41, Pizza RAC wrote:
> >> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 6:43:08 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Now, my last VMS work seem to have come to an end the 30th June.
> >>> So I'll probably never be able to work with this new VMS version.
> >>> I was 64 in may -23 so I will probably simple retire...
> >>>
> >>> Ah well, 30+ years with VMS is not that bad anyway... :-)
> >>>
> >>> Jan-Erik.
> >>
> >> come to the U.S. with Biden in charge no one will ever be able to
> >> retire :)
> >
> > Yeah. I guess that concept only exist in socialist countries, like Sweden.
> >
>
> I was forced to retire at 61 from the Army and at 65 from the University. I
> would gladly go back to work even with my current health problems because
> being retired sucks.
>
> Retirement in the US isn't going away. Finding a decent job if your over 60 (or
> in many cases even 50) is much more of a problem.
>
> bill
>

I would tend to agree, but the challenge is that to many people think 60-65 means your work career(s) are over.

If one works 30 years and decides to retire at age 60-65, then given the additional longevity of relatively health people's age expectations, the question needs to be asked "what are you going to do with your remaining 25-30 years?"

Playing golf is only an answer if you are an avid golfer and can afford the high expenses associated with golf. Hobbies? Sure, but every day?

Imho, after 60, you are only getting started and one should take this age to determine what you want to take on as a second career or job that is perhaps based on something you really like to do - even if it means volunteering. Joining a gym is a great activity for all of us who have avoided this for many years. Private consulting using years of experience is an option for some - especially if willing to get new certs like VMware, network, security related.

One thing for sure - everyone needs a reason to get out of bed in the morning and have activities on your daily schedule that you are looking forward to doing.

😊

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 6/19/2023 5:35 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
> I will agree with that, to a point.  What really amazes me is that with
> 330 million or so people, we cannot find even one better than the last
> 2.  And it's looking worse each day.
>
> Just remember, we got Trump because the Democrats were leaning way too
> far left.  He is their fault.  Can't we find anyone in the middle.

You can probably find some people in the middle.

But getting them elected may be difficult.

The US inherited the winner takes all from the British.
Most votes in a house district get the seat - other votes
doesn't count. Most votes in the state for senate get the
seat - other votes doesn't count. Most votes in the state
for president (for most states) get all electors. That
system tend to lead to a two party system. Small parties
do not have many chances.

On top of that the US got the public primaries. To
become a candidate for one of the two parties the
potential candidates need to get most votes from
the registered voters for that party (if closed primary,
which is still very common). That favors candidates
that are in the middle of the party's registered voters
over candidates that are in middle of all voters. It tend
to lead to more extreme candidates.

So the system push for a two party system with extreme
candidates.

In many countries in continental Europe there is a
totally different system. Seats in parliament is distributed
to parties according to their share of votes. And at least
some countries got low minimum to get seats.

That makes it easy for new small parties to get in. So it is not
unusual with 5-10 parties in parliament.

And the prime minister is elected by parliament. And a typical
parliament looks like:

right parties
right-center parties
center parties
left-center parties
left parties

and it very often end up that the center parties control who
become prime minister.

And that tend to result in center oriented prime ministers.
Tradition is not for the center parties to get the prime
minister role for themselves, instead they pick someone from
either right-center or left-center that is willing to compromise
over the middle.

That system also has its drawbacks. It often frustrates the
voters that there are so little differences between how
different prime ministers actually govern.

But people in the political center get elected. Almost
every time!

Arne

On 6/19/2023 1:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> That's all well and good Rob, but what happens when China grows a bit
> stronger and then decides to show you who the boss is by cutting off
> your imports ?

Americans can no longer get cheap furniture, cheap tools and all
sorts of cheap junk from China.

They will survive.

> Outside of that, what happens when changing world relationships result
> in a decline of the dollar as a reserve currency ?

That would fix the US trade deficit. The dollar would drop and
that would make foreign goods in the US more expensive and
US goods abroad cheaper.

There is probably a reason why China has fought so hard
to keep its currency low to the dollar.

> That's where the US
> currently gets most of its bullying power from.

It doesn't really give any power.

> In the old days, your military had to worry about protecting your
> industrial base from an enemy. These days, all your enemy needs to
> do is to threaten to stop sending you the goods they now produce
> for you.

If the goods are critical yes.

But China export is mostly consumer stuff.

> Unlike you, China has a strong industrial base, and so is far better
> placed to handle that situation than you are. They don't need to
> produce the best product on the market to survive the destruction of
> the US economy (if they decide to do that), they just need to produce
> a product that is good enough.

China is relative self sufficient. But there are a few things
they need. Including oil.

> Think about that if they decide to destroy the Taiwan fabs. They will
> survive that (even though they will be badly damaged initially), but
> your economy will not.

That is a risk.

But both the US and to some extent Europe are building
semi-conductor fabs to counter that scenario.

Arne

On 6/19/2023 1:27 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> You are now so weak and cripplied by your short-term thinking, you can
> only threaten China (and bully your traditional allies) with sanctions
> to try and stop China becoming a bigger competitor,

The US sanctions Russia, Iran, North Korea etc..

The US is starting to put some restrictions that probably
can be compared to sanctions on China as well.

I am pretty sure that US has not put any sanctions on its
traditional allies.

> instead of competing
> with them as a business rival.

So should the US back in 1940 had ditched the UK and
"competed with Germany as business rivals" or during the
cold war ditched Europe and "competed with USSR
as business rivals"?

I don't think so.

And why should the US do so with Russia or China today??

> The US is currently in the early stages of the modern day version of
> the fall of the Roman Empire.

Maybe.

But other countries seems closer.

Arne

On 6/19/2023 8:20 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-16, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 6/16/2023 8:21 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-15, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>> Lots of useful stuff (I don't get the entropy thing - sure it is
>>>> important, but there are many other things more important IMHO).
>>>
>>> The entropy stuff is a critical part of getting "the world's most
>>> secure operating system" actually back up the standards of modern
>>> operating systems. Before this, random number generation on VMS
>>> was hopeless from a security point of view.
>>>
>>> It's also vital that it's in x86-64 VMS _before_ the first commercial
>>> releases so that software that should be using it can rely on it actually
>>> being present so it does get used in code.
>>>
>>> The amount of effort that VSI are spending on this, at this point in time,
>>> is well justified.
>>
>> How many more VMS licenses will VSI sell because of that feature?
>>
>> My guess: zero.
>
> This is not about selling new systems. This is about being a part of
> work to make sure that existing sites don't get forced to move away
> from VMS because VMS no longer meets the industry standard security standards.
>
> You can have a nice piece of software running on VMS, but that's no
> good unless those VMS systems are secure by modern standards. VMS systems
> _WILL_ be dropped in many areas if they are regarded as no longer being
> secure by today's standards.

Which security standards mandate direct support for entropy generation
in the OS?

>> The OpenSSL maintainers may be happy that they get better entropy
>> with less code.
>
> Replace "better entropy" with "now-acceptable entropy".

Who is saying that current OpenSSL way is no longer acceptable?

> The new entropy
> engine running within the kernel offers a brand-new capability for VMS
> that is considered to be standard elsewhere.
>
> To put this another way, the previous solutions for generating entropy
> within user mode that I am aware of were not suitable by today's standards.

So you say.

I would really like to get some sources.

> Look at previous discussions here about trying to find sources to get
> a bit more entropy while running in user mode.

The topic has been discussed.

And the maintainer of the OpenSSL VMS code has indeed asked
some questions.

But I do not remember him saying that the current code was
not acceptable.

> Maybe I am seeing something here you are missing ?

Possible. I miss a lot of things. So just post links
to the standards, best practice documents etc. specifying
the need for direct OS entropy.

Arne

On 6/19/2023 8:02 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 6/19/2023 8:20 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-06-16, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 6/16/2023 8:21 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> On 2023-06-15, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Lots of useful stuff (I don't get the entropy thing - sure it is
>>>>> important, but there are many other things more important IMHO).
>>>>
>>>> The entropy stuff is a critical part of getting "the world's most
>>>> secure operating system" actually back up the standards of modern
>>>> operating systems. Before this, random number generation on VMS
>>>> was hopeless from a security point of view.
>>>>
>>>> It's also vital that it's in x86-64 VMS _before_ the first commercial
>>>> releases so that software that should be using it can rely on it actually
>>>> being present so it does get used in code.
>>>>
>>>> The amount of effort that VSI are spending on this, at this point in time,
>>>> is well justified.
>>>
>>> How many more VMS licenses will VSI sell because of that feature?
>>>
>>> My guess: zero.
>>
>> This is not about selling new systems. This is about being a part of
>> work to make sure that existing sites don't get forced to move away
>> from VMS because VMS no longer meets the industry standard security standards.
>>
>> You can have a nice piece of software running on VMS, but that's no
>> good unless those VMS systems are secure by modern standards. VMS systems
>> _WILL_ be dropped in many areas if they are regarded as no longer being
>> secure by today's standards.
>
> Which security standards mandate direct support for entropy generation
> in the OS?

Simon sez ...

:-)

>>> The OpenSSL maintainers may be happy that they get better entropy
>>> with less code.
>>
>> Replace "better entropy" with "now-acceptable entropy".
>
> Who is saying that current OpenSSL way is no longer acceptable?

Simon sez ...

>> The new entropy
>> engine running within the kernel offers a brand-new capability for VMS
>> that is considered to be standard elsewhere.
>>
>> To put this another way, the previous solutions for generating entropy
>> within user mode that I am aware of were not suitable by today's standards.
>
> So you say.
>
> I would really like to get some sources.
>
>> Look at previous discussions here about trying to find sources to get
>> a bit more entropy while running in user mode.
>
> The topic has been discussed.
>
> And the maintainer of the OpenSSL VMS code has indeed asked
> some questions.
>
> But I do not remember him saying that the current code was
> not acceptable.
>
>> Maybe I am seeing something here you are missing ?
>
> Possible. I miss a lot of things. So just post links
> to the standards, best practice documents etc. specifying
> the need for direct OS entropy.

People who count for encryption to provide protection don't really care all that
much. Do enough to check the appropriate box, then not their problem.

People who really care about security of course may use SSL, but then what
happens when the encryption is broken? The user's data is available to the
hackers. But what if the app developers insured that the data, if encryption is
defeated, doesn't really mean anything to the hackers. Some custom stuff in
addition to SSL and such. Yeah, even then, some hacker might figure out the
data. But isn't it better to make it as tough for the hacker as one can?

Now I'll hear from some "you got to use standards". I'd ask "why?" The problem
with standards is, everybody knows them.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/19/2023 6:37 PM, kemain.nospam@gmail.com wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Info-vax <info-vax-bounces@rbnsn.com> On Behalf Of bill via Info-vax
>> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2023 3:40 PM
>> To: info-vax@rbnsn.com
>> Cc: bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI has released 9.2-1
>>
>> On 6/19/2023 11:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2023-06-19 16:41, Pizza RAC wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 6:43:08 PM UTC-4, Jan-Erik Söderholm
>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, my last VMS work seem to have come to an end the 30th June.
>>>>> So I'll probably never be able to work with this new VMS version.
>>>>> I was 64 in may -23 so I will probably simple retire...
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah well, 30+ years with VMS is not that bad anyway... :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan-Erik.
>>>>
>>>> come to the U.S. with Biden in charge no one will ever be able to
>>>> retire :)
>>>
>>> Yeah. I guess that concept only exist in socialist countries, like Sweden.
>>>
>>
>> I was forced to retire at 61 from the Army and at 65 from the University. I
>> would gladly go back to work even with my current health problems because
>> being retired sucks.
>>
>> Retirement in the US isn't going away. Finding a decent job if your over 60 (or
>> in many cases even 50) is much more of a problem.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> I would tend to agree, but the challenge is that to many people think 60-65
means your work career(s) are over.
>
> If one works 30 years and decides to retire at age 60-65, then given the
additional longevity of relatively health people's age expectations, the
question needs to be asked "what are you going to do with your remaining 25-30
years?"

Go flying?

> Playing golf is only an answer if you are an avid golfer and can afford the
> high expenses associated with golf. Hobbies? Sure, but every day?

Re-build a classic aircraft?

> Imho, after 60, you are only getting started and one should take this age to
> determine what you want to take on as a second career or job that is perhaps
> based on something you really like to do - even if it means volunteering.
> Joining a gym is a great activity for all of us who have avoided this for many
> years. Private consulting using years of experience is an option for some -
> especially if willing to get new certs like VMware, network, security related.
>
> One thing for sure - everyone needs a reason to get out of bed in the
> morning
> and have activities on your daily schedule that you are looking forward to doing.
>

There is the chance to sleep in late now and then ...

I sort of enjoy having less demands on my time. Can't dodge them all.

Wife: Go to the store and get ...

Daughter: When are you going to take care of that tree branch ...

Kids are gone, grandkids are gone, guess who gets to mow 10+ acres ...

As busy now as ever.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2023-06-19, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
> I really shouldn't be adding posts to this stupid topic.
>
> Competing with China is nothing like a business rivalry. At some point
> this needs to be addressed properly.
>
> https://youtu.be/0xlq4WSpUH8
>

How does that incident compare to what the US are doing to everyone else ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-06-19, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 6/19/2023 8:20 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> This is not about selling new systems. This is about being a part of
>> work to make sure that existing sites don't get forced to move away
>> from VMS because VMS no longer meets the industry standard security standards.
>>
>> You can have a nice piece of software running on VMS, but that's no
>> good unless those VMS systems are secure by modern standards. VMS systems
>> _WILL_ be dropped in many areas if they are regarded as no longer being
>> secure by today's standards.
>
> Which security standards mandate direct support for entropy generation
> in the OS?
>

You can also do it using external devices, which has been the only option
for VMS until now, because the goal is to be able to meet a set of
specified standards.

>>> The OpenSSL maintainers may be happy that they get better entropy
>>> with less code.
>>
>> Replace "better entropy" with "now-acceptable entropy".
>
> Who is saying that current OpenSSL way is no longer acceptable?
>

OpenSSL on VMS, not OpenSSL in general.

>> The new entropy
>> engine running within the kernel offers a brand-new capability for VMS
>> that is considered to be standard elsewhere.
>>
>> To put this another way, the previous solutions for generating entropy
>> within user mode that I am aware of were not suitable by today's standards.
>
> So you say.
>
> I would really like to get some sources.
>

Fair enough. The current standards are the NIST SP 800-90 series of
standards:

https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/sp/800-90a/rev-1/final
https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/sp/800-90b/final
https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/sp/800-90c/draft

In each case, the actual standard can be found in the top right of the
page, under the "Publication:" section.

However, since they can be hard to follow in certain parts, here is
a much more readable introduction-level document from Red Hat discussing
these issues from a Linux point of view:

https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/understanding-random-number-generators-and-their-limitations-linux

Look at the sources Linux is using for the entropy pool. You can't duplicate
that in user mode without access to a kernel module (and underlying OS
support) to help you.

>> Look at previous discussions here about trying to find sources to get
>> a bit more entropy while running in user mode.
>
> The topic has been discussed.
>
> And the maintainer of the OpenSSL VMS code has indeed asked
> some questions.
>
> But I do not remember him saying that the current code was
> not acceptable.
>
> > Maybe I am seeing something here you are missing ?
>
> Possible. I miss a lot of things. So just post links
> to the standards, best practice documents etc. specifying
> the need for direct OS entropy.
>

The NIST and earlier standards specify a series of requirements. You can't
meet those requirements in a software-based solution without kernel support
to get direct access to the entropy sources.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-06-19, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 6/19/2023 1:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> That's all well and good Rob, but what happens when China grows a bit
>> stronger and then decides to show you who the boss is by cutting off
>> your imports ?
>
> Americans can no longer get cheap furniture, cheap tools and all
> sorts of cheap junk from China.
>
> They will survive.
>

They also can't get all the medical supplies and critical equipment
now produced in China, and which would need a _serious_ amount of time
to rebuild that infrastructure within the US.

Are you sure about the above ?

>> That's where the US
>> currently gets most of its bullying power from.
>
> It doesn't really give any power.
>

Yes, it does. The US is currently using its power to force its allies
to also impose sanctions. In a more general way, the US imposes a threat
of being frozen out of the US banking system to get its way.

>> In the old days, your military had to worry about protecting your
>> industrial base from an enemy. These days, all your enemy needs to
>> do is to threaten to stop sending you the goods they now produce
>> for you.
>
> If the goods are critical yes.
>
> But China export is mostly consumer stuff.
>

So what happened to the supply chains during Covid was an illusion ?
(And that was with China still trying to meet its obligations!)

BTW, where did the Covid-specific medical supplies come from ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 6/20/2023 8:51 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-19, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 6/19/2023 1:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> That's all well and good Rob, but what happens when China grows a bit
>>> stronger and then decides to show you who the boss is by cutting off
>>> your imports ?
>>
>> Americans can no longer get cheap furniture, cheap tools and all
>> sorts of cheap junk from China.
>>
>> They will survive.
>>
>
> They also can't get all the medical supplies and critical equipment
> now produced in China, and which would need a _serious_ amount of time
> to rebuild that infrastructure within the US.

It is my understanding that much of the medical stuff comes from India and other
places. Don't know how much comes from China.

> Are you sure about the above ?

Yes, we would survive. We'd learn the lesson to not be so dependent on others,
but, we'd just have to "onshore" what we'd let go of in the past.

>>> That's where the US
>>> currently gets most of its bullying power from.
>>
>> It doesn't really give any power.
>>
>
> Yes, it does. The US is currently using its power to force its allies
> to also impose sanctions. In a more general way, the US imposes a threat
> of being frozen out of the US banking system to get its way.

True.

>>> In the old days, your military had to worry about protecting your
>>> industrial base from an enemy. These days, all your enemy needs to
>>> do is to threaten to stop sending you the goods they now produce
>>> for you.
>>
>> If the goods are critical yes.
>>
>> But China export is mostly consumer stuff.
>>
>
> So what happened to the supply chains during Covid was an illusion ?
> (And that was with China still trying to meet its obligations!)

It's a bit complex. Consider two people in a rubber life raft. They don't get
along, so, one decides to sink the raft, to harm the other. The first person is
also in the life raft. Both would suffer.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 2023-06-20 14:06, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-19, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>
>> I really shouldn't be adding posts to this stupid topic.
>>
>> Competing with China is nothing like a business rivalry. At some point
>> this needs to be addressed properly.
>>
>> https://youtu.be/0xlq4WSpUH8
>>
>
> How does that incident compare to what the US are doing to everyone else ?

Can you provide some facts instead of sweeping generalizations here, please?

You just claiming something is so don't necessarily make it true.
Hard to have a discussion comparing two things when one is a concrete
incident, and the other a sweeping generalization and opinion.

And just for the record, I personally have infinite more trust in the US
than China (which sortof comes obviously from the trust in China being
0, and the trust in the US being non-zero).

Johnny

On Tue, 2023-06-20 at 09:18 -0400, Dave Froble wrote:
> Yes, we would survive.  We'd learn the lesson to not be so dependent
> on others, but, we'd just have to "onshore" what we'd let go of in
> the past.

Greed. I call it pure unalternated greed on the part of Wall Street.
Squeezing us dry for profit. The UK is already hurtling along the same
path that the US has already trod upon. Western Europe isn't that
stupid, well mostly.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

On 2023-06-20 14:51, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-06-19, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 6/19/2023 1:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> That's all well and good Rob, but what happens when China grows a bit
>>> stronger and then decides to show you who the boss is by cutting off
>>> your imports ?
>>
>> Americans can no longer get cheap furniture, cheap tools and all
>> sorts of cheap junk from China.
>>
>> They will survive.
>>
>
> They also can't get all the medical supplies and critical equipment
> now produced in China, and which would need a _serious_ amount of time
> to rebuild that infrastructure within the US.

Very little of that, I'd say.

> Are you sure about the above ?

I would definitely agree with Arne here.

>>> That's where the US
>>> currently gets most of its bullying power from.
>>
>> It doesn't really give any power.
>>
>
> Yes, it does. The US is currently using its power to force its allies
> to also impose sanctions. In a more general way, the US imposes a threat
> of being frozen out of the US banking system to get its way.

??? Sanctions on Russia have not been forced on by the US. You might
better blame the UK in that case, which has been leading this more. Or a
bunch of former eastern european countries, who have various past bad
experiences with Russia, and know all too well what it's all about.

What other contries are there sanctions against? North Korea. Seriously
- you think that the US bullied other countries into those sanctions?
Syria? Iran?

What planet are you living on?

>>> In the old days, your military had to worry about protecting your
>>> industrial base from an enemy. These days, all your enemy needs to
>>> do is to threaten to stop sending you the goods they now produce
>>> for you.
>>
>> If the goods are critical yes.
>>
>> But China export is mostly consumer stuff.
>>
>
> So what happened to the supply chains during Covid was an illusion ?
> (And that was with China still trying to meet its obligations!)

There has been a major issue with semiconductor supplies since Covid
started. But as have been pointed out, these are not very China specific
in any sense. Basically, production and transports in general have been
hit, causing chain effects. Not much tied to China at all.

> BTW, where did the Covid-specific medical supplies come from ?

Are you talking about all the face masks that were substandard and not
usable? Yeah, there were a whole bunch of those delivered to Sweden from
China. I don't think not having them delivered would have made things worse.

Johnny

On 6/20/2023 10:18 AM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
> On Tue, 2023-06-20 at 09:18 -0400, Dave Froble wrote:
>> Yes, we would survive. We'd learn the lesson to not be so dependent
>> on others, but, we'd just have to "onshore" what we'd let go of in
>> the past.
>
> Greed. I call it pure unalternated greed on the part of Wall Street.
> Squeezing us dry for profit. The UK is already hurtling along the same
> path that the US has already trod upon. Western Europe isn't that
> stupid, well mostly.
>

It's a rather complex situation.

"Greed" can be helpful, if it causes good things to happen. But it will usually
be harmful to some. Case, the take over of North America, good for some, but
not so good for the native americans.

I consider myself a bit conservative, but, nothing like the current definition
of conservative in the US. I don't think I'm a socialist, but, I think
government should "do the right thing" without resorting to names. Perhaps it's
the names that are the problem.

For example, Bernie Sanders, who called himself a "socialist" and tried to run
for president. Now, I'm betting over 90% of voters in the US don't understand
just what socialism might be, but, I'm sure over 90% of voters in the US "know"
that socialism is BAD. Why couldn't the idiot just say what he is for, things
that I'd approve of, and ignore the name. Like shooting yourself in the foot,
and taking out the rest of yourself.

Then there is "woke", whatever that is.

Maybe the best thing to do is nuke the Harvard Business School? And declare
open season on lawyers?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/20/2023 11:09 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-06-20 14:51, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-06-19, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 6/19/2023 1:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>> That's all well and good Rob, but what happens when China grows a bit
>>>> stronger and then decides to show you who the boss is by cutting off
>>>> your imports ?
>>>
>>> Americans can no longer get cheap furniture, cheap tools and all
>>> sorts of cheap junk from China.
>>>
>>> They will survive.
>>>
>>
>> They also can't get all the medical supplies and critical equipment
>> now produced in China, and which would need a _serious_ amount of time
>> to rebuild that infrastructure within the US.
>
> Very little of that, I'd say.
>
>> Are you sure about the above ?
>
> I would definitely agree with Arne here.
>
>>>> That's where the US
>>>> currently gets most of its bullying power from.
>>>
>>> It doesn't really give any power.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it does. The US is currently using its power to force its allies
>> to also impose sanctions. In a more general way, the US imposes a threat
>> of being frozen out of the US banking system to get its way.
>
> ??? Sanctions on Russia have not been forced on by the US. You might better
> blame the UK in that case, which has been leading this more. Or a bunch of
> former eastern european countries, who have various past bad experiences with
> Russia, and know all too well what it's all about.
>
> What other contries are there sanctions against? North Korea. Seriously - you
> think that the US bullied other countries into those sanctions?
> Syria? Iran?
>
> What planet are you living on?
>
>>>> In the old days, your military had to worry about protecting your
>>>> industrial base from an enemy. These days, all your enemy needs to
>>>> do is to threaten to stop sending you the goods they now produce
>>>> for you.
>>>
>>> If the goods are critical yes.
>>>
>>> But China export is mostly consumer stuff.
>>>
>>
>> So what happened to the supply chains during Covid was an illusion ?
>> (And that was with China still trying to meet its obligations!)
>
> There has been a major issue with semiconductor supplies since Covid started.
> But as have been pointed out, these are not very China specific in any sense.
> Basically, production and transports in general have been hit, causing chain
> effects. Not much tied to China at all.
>
>> BTW, where did the Covid-specific medical supplies come from ?
>
> Are you talking about all the face masks that were substandard and not usable?
> Yeah, there were a whole bunch of those delivered to Sweden from China. I don't
> think not having them delivered would have made things worse.
>
> Johnny
>

It's so much fun to pick on Simon ...

:-)

As for semiconductors and the auto industry, the auto industry caused that
problem by reducing their orders. Of course then the semiconductor industry
took other orders.

As for Covid-19, where did the vaccine research and production occur? US?
Britain? Germany?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

On 6/20/2023 11:53 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> >
> Maybe the best thing to do is nuke the Harvard Business School?  And
> declare open season on lawyers?
>

Been there, done that.

"First we kill all the lawyers." : Shakespeare

We have a commercial running now where a lawyer says the biggest
complaint against lawyers is that they don't return phone calls.
Funny, I always thought the biggest complaint against lawyers was
that they were scum sucking bottom feeders.

bill

On 20/06/2023 17:55, bill wrote:
> On 6/20/2023 11:53 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>  >
>> Maybe the best thing to do is nuke the Harvard Business School?  And
>> declare open season on lawyers?
>>
>
> Been there, done that.
>
> "First we kill all the lawyers." : Shakespeare
>
> We have a commercial running now where a lawyer says the biggest
> complaint against lawyers is that they don't return phone calls.
> Funny, I always thought the biggest complaint against lawyers was
> that they were scum sucking bottom feeders.
>
> bill
>

I recall the sad story of an airliner full of lawyers that crashed, and
all were killed.
Everybody felt sad for the pilot
--
Chris

On 2023-06-20, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-06-20 14:51, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> Yes, it does. The US is currently using its power to force its allies
>> to also impose sanctions. In a more general way, the US imposes a threat
>> of being frozen out of the US banking system to get its way.
>
> ??? Sanctions on Russia have not been forced on by the US. You might
> better blame the UK in that case, which has been leading this more. Or a
> bunch of former eastern european countries, who have various past bad
> experiences with Russia, and know all too well what it's all about.
>
> What other contries are there sanctions against? North Korea. Seriously
> - you think that the US bullied other countries into those sanctions?
> Syria? Iran?
>

China. Please research the situation with ASML and what the US is doing
to a European company as one example.

That will cause short-term pain to China, but in the long term, as they
are forced to invent a homegrown solution, that will backfire big time
as it means there's one less Western piece of technology they rely on.

That's also going to cause long-term pain for ASML as their currently
world-leading technology ends up facing a Chinese competitor.

>> BTW, where did the Covid-specific medical supplies come from ?
>
> Are you talking about all the face masks that were substandard and not
> usable? Yeah, there were a whole bunch of those delivered to Sweden from
> China. I don't think not having them delivered would have made things worse.
>

Not just those. The Covid tests I had to take were also marked as coming
from China. Apparently, we couldn't produce something like that, in the
timescales required, ourselves.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-06-20, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-06-20 14:06, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-06-19, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>>>
>>> I really shouldn't be adding posts to this stupid topic.
>>>
>>> Competing with China is nothing like a business rivalry. At some point
>>> this needs to be addressed properly.
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/0xlq4WSpUH8
>>>
>>
>> How does that incident compare to what the US are doing to everyone else ?
>
> Can you provide some facts instead of sweeping generalizations here, please?
>
> You just claiming something is so don't necessarily make it true.
> Hard to have a discussion comparing two things when one is a concrete
> incident, and the other a sweeping generalization and opinion.
>

Not an opinion. There's plenty of stuff that's come out about what the
US are up to. (As well as what the UK and other countries are up to).

Some random examples resulting from keyword searches:

1) The US planted backdoors in Cisco equipment:

https://www.infoworld.com/article/2608141/snowden--the-nsa-planted-backdoors-in-cisco-products.html

Exactly the kind of thing they accuse China of doing.

2) The US secretly purchased a Swiss company and sold equipment with
backdoors in it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/

Exactly the kind of thing they accuse China of doing.

3) The US violated the trust placed in it to compromise security standards:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_EC_DRBG

Exactly the kind of thing China would like to do, but are not yet in
a sufficient position of trust to be able to do it.

4) The US spies on close allies for economic purposes:

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-fears-nsa-stole-industrial-secrets/a-16925289
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/snowden-accuses-nsa-of-stealing-business-secrets-370704?eid=1&edate=20140128&utm_source=20140128_AM&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=daily_newsletter&eaddr=%%Email%20Address%%

Exactly the kind of thing they accuse China of doing.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 6/20/2023 1:18 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
> On 20/06/2023 17:55, bill wrote:
>> On 6/20/2023 11:53 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>  >
>>> Maybe the best thing to do is nuke the Harvard Business School?  And
>>> declare open season on lawyers?
>>>
>>
>> Been there, done that.
>>
>> "First we kill all the lawyers." : Shakespeare
>>
>> We have a commercial running now where a lawyer says the biggest
>> complaint against lawyers is that they don't return phone calls.
>> Funny, I always thought the biggest complaint against lawyers was
>> that they were scum sucking bottom feeders.
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> I recall the sad story of an airliner full of lawyers that crashed, and
> all were killed.
> Everybody felt sad for the pilot

I heard it was an even bigger disaster because one seat was empty.

bill