Bob Martin wrote:

> On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
> under Settings/Security.
> Currently showing January 1, 2022

In terms of security updates, the Pixel3 got its final, no really, final update
today (didn't move the month up from oct 21 to feb 22) yesterday it got another
play update (likewise that didn't move the month up from jan 22 to feb 22)

So they're still not making it easy to tell which versions we've got.

On 8 Feb 2022 at 20:03:16, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
>> under Settings/Security.
>> Currently showing January 1, 2022
>
> In terms of security updates, the Pixel3 got its final, no really, final update
> today (didn't move the month up from oct 21 to feb 22) yesterday it got another
> play update (likewise that didn't move the month up from jan 22 to feb 22)
>
> So they're still not making it easy to tell which versions we've got.
>
Nope! I'm thinking of side-loading the latest OTA file from the factory image site.

On 9 Feb 2022 08:04:43 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:

>> In terms of security updates, the Pixel3 got its final, no really, final update
>> today (didn't move the month up from oct 21 to feb 22) yesterday it got another
>> play update (likewise that didn't move the month up from jan 22 to feb 22)
>>
>> So they're still not making it easy to tell which versions we've got.
>>
> Nope! I'm thinking of side-loading the latest OTA file from the factory image site.

I've never sideloaded the "update", which, I presume, is the "Security
Update" (given there are a dozen major updates, but three main ones:
a. Android Version
b. Security Update
c. Google Play Version

I have two questions about what Bob Martin informed us about:
1. How does one manually sideload a Pixel "Security Update"?
2. Can a Samsung Galaxy A32-5G perform a similar task?

Bob Martin wrote:

> I'm thinking of side-loading the latest OTA file from the factory image site.

I still think it'll say 5th oct 21, rather than 1st feb 22

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> 1. How does one manually sideload a Pixel "Security Update"?

in short ... download the appropriate ota .zip file onto the phone, boot into
recovery mode by holding vol- while powering on, choose sideload from the menu,
select the zip file

> 2. Can a Samsung Galaxy A32-5G perform a similar task?

Don't think samsungs have the equivalent of unlocked bootloader, one of the
beauties of nexus/pixel devices

On 10 Feb 2022 at 20:13:02, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking of side-loading the latest OTA file from the factory image site.
>
> I still think it'll say 5th oct 21, rather than 1st feb 22

Yes, it does, and Jan 1 for Google Play Services, but I wasn't feeling comfortable
about the update as it didn't complete at the first attempt.

The sideload of the OTA file went OK so now I'm happy :-)

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 20:18:16 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

>> 1. How does one manually sideload a Pixel "Security Update"?
>
> in short ... download the appropriate ota .zip file onto the phone, boot into
> recovery mode by holding vol- while powering on, choose sideload from the menu,
> select the zip file

Given every Usenet thread should add value as a team sport, I thank Andy for
explaining that there are URIs out there that contain the OTA zip file,
presumably only for the Nexus and Pixel devices based on what you say below.

I need to admit I never really understood what a "bootloader" really is, as
I always assumed it was just the "kernel" or something basic out of the way.
Of course, ignorance, after being admitted, should then begin to be cured:
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+is+unlocked+android+bootloader>

How's this for the high-level (everyone should know this) type of summary?
a. The bootloader is stored in "special stable memory"
b. It's the very first software that runs upon booting
c. Then it starts up the second software, which is the Android OS
d. Sometimes the bootloader checks in between if the OS is "approved"
e. If the check fails, then the OS is not loaded.
<https://www.technorms.com/25689/android-bootloader-locked-unlocked-guide>
<https://www.unlockphone.codes/what-unlocked-bootloader-does/>
<https://source.android.com/devices/bootloader/locking_unlocking>

>> 2. Can a Samsung Galaxy A32-5G perform a similar task?
>
> Don't think samsungs have the equivalent of unlocked bootloader, one of the
> beauties of nexus/pixel devices

I presume you're saying the bootloader is already unlocked, by default, for
Samsung and Nexus devices, but not for the Samsungs, is that right?

If so, then the obvious next step to explore is unlocking the bootloader.

The last phone I rooted was a Samsung Galaxy S3 whose USB port was destroyed
so I rooted it with a single-step program widely available, and hence, I
really didn't learn anything about unlocking (none of my others are rooted).

I don't remember unlocking the bootloader then, but I did unlock the
bootloader on an iPhone 4 to make it work on T-Mobile back in the day.

Even though it was a single click to root the Samsung Galaxy S3, apparently,
nowadays, perhaps?, you need more steps now than we did on the olden days.

It seems each device needs its own bootloader unlock sequence, apparently.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bootloader+unlock+samsung+galaxay+a32-5g>
First hit shows, at least one reliable bootloader unlock for a Samsung.
*Samsung Galaxy S 4 Bootloader Unlocked*
<https://www.xda-developers.com/samsung-galaxy-s-4-bootloader-unlocked/>
<https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/bootloader-hacking-details.2259933/>

But I'm interested in the phone that I have, but this says it can't be done.
<https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/samsung-galaxy-a32-5g.12145/>

And yet, the Internet being what it is, these imply that it can be done.
*How to unlock bootloader on Samsung Galaxy A32 5G*
<https://www.naldotech.com/unlock-samsung-galaxy-a32-bootloader/>
<https://thetechtalkies.com/how-to-unlock-bootloader-on-samsung-galaxy-a32-5g/>
<https://www.rootingsteps.com/unlock-bootloader-samsung-galaxy-a32/>
<https://www.hardreset.info/devices/samsung/samsung-galaxy-a32-5g/faq/bootloader-unlock/samsung-bootloader/>

For now, I'll have to live vicariously off you pixel owners because you have
the _perfect_ phone at the right timeframe, to tell us when Google stops
updating the GOogle Play System Update.

Let's always keep in mind that these are _different_ things:
a. Android version update
b. Android security patch version update
c. Google Play System Update <=== this is what this thread is all about

When does Google stop updating the Google Play System Update for the Pixel?
(Do we know _that_ answer yet?)

On 11 Feb 2022 08:14:37 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:

>>> I'm thinking of side-loading the latest OTA file from the factory image site.
>>
>> I still think it'll say 5th oct 21, rather than 1st feb 22
>
> Yes, it does, and Jan 1 for Google Play Services, but I wasn't feeling comfortable
> about the update as it didn't complete at the first attempt.
>
> The sideload of the OTA file went OK so now I'm happy :-)

I'm desperately trying to understand (and learn from) everything said here.
That's how Usenet works (it's a team sport where everyone adds their value).

Given this thread is about the two dozen core modules in project Mainline,
may I ask Andy and/or Bob Martin which specific OTA are you talking about?

The reason I ask is there are three key update versions.
a. Android version update
b. Android security patch update
c. Google Play system update <=== this thread is about this date!

If Andy or Bob can provide the URI to the OTA file I could probably figure
it out for myself but since it's just described as an OTA, which one is it?
A. Is it an OTA for the Android version update?
B. Is it an OTA for the Android security patch update?
C. Is it an OTA for the Google Play system update? <=== this is what we want

Which OTA zip file is Bob and Andy talking about?

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Given this thread is about the two dozen core modules in project Mainline,
> may I ask Andy and/or Bob Martin which specific OTA are you talking about?

In general they're all stored here, one per nexus/pixel model, per month, these
are the "full" OTA ROM images.

<https://developers.google.com/android/ota>

In particular we're talking about the blueline=pixel3 SP1A.210812.016.C1 file
from this month, which is the final OTA for this phone, which actually
identifies as october since it's just a set of bugfixes to the android 12
upgrade they received then.

Normally the phones receive a "delta" OTA update with just the differences from
the previous month rather than using the full OTA. For 11 months a year the OTA
(whether delta or full) is just security patches, but once a year it's the major
version upgrade.

But OTAs aren't play updates, those only seem to have come into effect for
pixel3 since october, when the normal delta OTA updates reached end of the road
for that device.

Hopefully the play updates will keep the core components updated, but we
certainly won't get android 13 that way, and it remains to be seen what else we
do get ...

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:41:55 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> In general they're all stored here, one per nexus/pixel model, per month,
> these are the "full" OTA ROM images.
> <https://developers.google.com/android/ota>

Thanks for that URL to the so-called "full" over-the-air ROM zip images.
*Full OTA Images for Nexus and Pixel Devices*
Which, in effect, sideloads that "full factory image" using adb over USB:
c:\> adb sideload ota_file.zip

Full, in this sense means some value of "full" which is as yet unknown.
a. Android version update <== It seems that the "full" OTA includes this
b. Android security patch update <== The "full" OTA seems to include this
c. Google Play system update <== But does the "full" OTA also include this?

> In particular we're talking about the blueline=pixel3 SP1A.210812.016.C1 file
> from this month, which is the final OTA for this phone, which actually
> identifies as october since it's just a set of bugfixes to the android 12
> upgrade they received then.

Thanks for being detailed as I'm desperately trying to figure out answers.

Looking, that 1.5GB file is named "12.0.0 (SP1A.210812.016.C1, Feb 2022)"
<https://dl.google.com/dl/android/aosp/crosshatch-ota-sp1a.210812.016.c1-d3a532dd.zip>

Where I see what you mean they also update the Android OS version between:
"11.0.0 (RQ3A.211001.001, Oct 2021)" & "12.0.0 (SP1A.210812.015, Oct 2021)"

> Normally the phones receive a "delta" OTA update with just the differences from
> the previous month rather than using the full OTA. For 11 months a year the OTA
> (whether delta or full) is just security patches, but once a year it's the major
> version upgrade.

Thank you for explaining that they update both the patch level (each time)
and the OS version (roughly about yearly) where both seem to be commingled.
a. Android version update <== This is updated about once a year
b. Android security patch update <== This is updated about once every month
c. Google Play system update <== But when/how/where is this updated?
> But OTAs aren't play updates, those only seem to have come into effect for
> pixel3 since october, when the normal delta OTA updates reached end of the road
> for that device.

Thanks for reiterating that fact, since it was _you_ who figured that out.
I just knew Project Mainline (aka Google Play System Updates) existed.

I only know "Google Play System Updates" can be done either
a. Unilaterally by Google over some internal mechanism over the net
b. Or, by an "Android Partner" over the air by some other internal mechanism

That's confusing.

Even more confusing, it seems, based on what you said prior, that
1. You used to get Google Play Services Updates over the air
2. But now you get those Google Play Services Updates over the net

Is that right?

BTW, I'm not even sure what those two things are, where I assume one of the
two components of Android listed below _does_ that update, at some directive
A. Google Play services <com.google.android.gms>
B. Google Play Store <com.android.vending>

This is all so confusing.
I'm just trying to nail down the question asked in the SUBJECT line.

Do you have more details on how _any_ of the above programs update the
Google Play Version?
> Hopefully the play updates will keep the core components updated, but we
> certainly won't get android 13 that way, and it remains to be seen what else we
> do get ...

Please do keep an eye on what happens to these three specific versions:
a. Android version
b. Android security patch version
c. Google Play system update version

I suspect you won't get the first two much longer, but the question in this
thread is all about that third item which contains two dozen core modules.

As far as I know, Google hasn't published an EOL date for the "Google Play
System Updates" (have they?), so it's important to us that you keep us
informed since you are on the exact right hardware to help us figure that
out (which is, after all, the answer we seek).

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Thanks for that URL to the so-called "full" over-the-air ROM zip images.
> *Full OTA Images for Nexus and Pixel Devices*
> Which, in effect, sideloads that "full factory image" using adb over USB:
> c:\> adb sideload ota_file.zip

If you download the image to a PC, you have to use ADB to sideload it to the
phone over USB, but if you download the image to the phone itself, you don't
need to use usb, the bootloader can flash itself.

> Full, in this sense means some value of "full" which is as yet unknown.

The difference between a full OTA and a factory image, is that the latter can
only be installed by wiping the phone, the former leaves user data intact.

The difference between a full OTA and a delta OTA, is that a full one can be
installed by the user, but it only makes sense to install the correct delta
between the current installed version and the newly available version.

> a. Android version update <== It seems that the "full" OTA includes this
> b. Android security patch update <== The "full" OTA seems to include this
> c. Google Play system update <== But does the "full" OTA also include this?

I would suspect so, e.g. the ART and associated libraries, but we were never told.

>> In particular we're talking about the blueline=pixel3 SP1A.210812.016.C1 file
>> from this month, which is the final OTA for this phone, which actually
>> identifies as october since it's just a set of bugfixes to the android 12
>> upgrade they received then.
>
> Thanks for being detailed as I'm desperately trying to figure out answers.
>
> Looking, that 1.5GB file is named "12.0.0 (SP1A.210812.016.C1, Feb 2022)"
> <https://dl.google.com/dl/android/aosp/crosshatch-ota-sp1a.210812.016.c1-d3a532dd.zip>

crosshatch=pixel3XL blueline=pixel3, but yes

> Where I see what you mean they also update the Android OS version between:
> "11.0.0 (RQ3A.211001.001, Oct 2021)" & "12.0.0 (SP1A.210812.015, Oct 2021)"
>
>> Normally the phones receive a "delta" OTA update with just the differences from
>> the previous month rather than using the full OTA. For 11 months a year the OTA
>> (whether delta or full) is just security patches, but once a year it's the major
>> version upgrade.
>
> Thank you for explaining that they update both the patch level (each time)
> and the OS version (roughly about yearly) where both seem to be commingled.

Yes, pixel owners are used to a single, monthly update, sometimes it's a few 10s
of MB, other times it's over 1 GB.

When my previous phone (Nexus5X) reached end of life, that was that, brick wall,
no such thing as "one final update" a few months later, no core updates to
firmware via play, so I bought a new phone and gave the old one to my Dad,
despite being 3 years old it had newer firmware than his.

> a. Android version update <== This is updated about once a year
> b. Android security patch update <== This is updated about once every month
> c. Google Play system update <== But when/how/where is this updated?

The play update mechanism appears to have changed in the past three months,
either in practice, or in terms of visibility, it sounds encouraging, for those
of us with phones > 3 years old, if it keeps them "somewhat" up to date within
the same major version, rather than left to rot.

>> But OTAs aren't play updates, those only seem to have come into effect for
>> pixel3 since october, when the normal delta OTA updates reached end of the road
>> for that device.
>
> Thanks for reiterating that fact, since it was _you_ who figured that out.
> I just knew Project Mainline (aka Google Play System Updates) existed.

I'm not convinced that google will actually be providing any fixes outside the
core components, e.g. no qualcomm driver fixes (SoC, GPS, audio, camera, GPU
DRM, codecs, sensors) that have also been updated monthly by the OTA.

After all why would they set a 3 year life, and then at the end of that life,
still go on providing device specific fixes? The core components, yes I can see
they have to produce them anyway, so slipping them out to all phones is a
benefit that doesn't cost them much.

> I only know "Google Play System Updates" can be done either
> a. Unilaterally by Google over some internal mechanism over the net
> b. Or, by an "Android Partner" over the air by some other internal mechanism
>
> That's confusing.
>
> Even more confusing, it seems, based on what you said prior, that
> 1. You used to get Google Play Services Updates over the air
> 2. But now you get those Google Play Services Updates over the net
>
> Is that right?

With pixels, I think they have always come over the net

> BTW, I'm not even sure what those two things are, where I assume one of the
> two components of Android listed below _does_ that update, at some directive
> A. Google Play services <com.google.android.gms>
> B. Google Play Store <com.android.vending>
>
> This is all so confusing.
> I'm just trying to nail down the question asked in the SUBJECT line.
>
> Do you have more details on how _any_ of the above programs update the
> Google Play Version?
>
>> Hopefully the play updates will keep the core components updated, but we
>> certainly won't get android 13 that way, and it remains to be seen what else we
>> do get ...
>
> Please do keep an eye on what happens to these three specific versions:
> a. Android version
> b. Android security patch version
> c. Google Play system update version

yes, I've taken screenshots of the version numbers that are exposed, I wish
there was more specific version info was available, I tried inware but it's not
much more detail.

<http://andyburns.uk/misc/pixel3_20220212.jpg>

> I suspect you won't get the first two much longer, but the question in this
> thread is all about that third item which contains two dozen core modules.

Pretty sure of that, barring some bug that's reputation-damaging to google
affecting most android devices.

> As far as I know, Google hasn't published an EOL date for the "Google Play
> System Updates" (have they?), so it's important to us that you keep us
> informed since you are on the exact right hardware to help us figure that
> out (which is, after all, the answer we seek).

I expect it'll roll on and on, at least until they jump to a new runtime like
they did for dalvik->art

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 17:39:08 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

> If you download the image to a PC, you have to use ADB to sideload it to the
> phone over USB, but if you download the image to the phone itself, you don't
> need to use usb, the bootloader can flash itself.

Ah. Thanks.

I love to learn, and therefore, whenever I read anything, a million
questions come to the fore (which I have to stifle), where, in this case of
adb, I was wondering why a PC might be needed, so I'm glad that it isn't.

I wouldn't be asking for clarification if I wasn't trying to figure it out.

>> Full, in this sense means some value of "full" which is as yet unknown.
>
> The difference between a full OTA and a factory image, is that the latter can
> only be installed by wiping the phone, the former leaves user data intact.

Ah, again, thanks. That makes too much sense. I'm ignorant of this stuff.
Hence I do appreciate your clarifications as I have never owned a Pixel.
(I have a T-Mobile Nexus 5 somewhere, but I can't find it.)

The fact you have the Pixel 3 is perfect because you're in the best position
to answer the question of the SUBJECT of this thread, which is the focus.

a. Android version ==> this has likely ended already for the Pixel 3
b. Android security patch version ==> this likely just ended for the Pixel 3
c. Google Play system update version ==> but _when_ does this end?

> The difference between a full OTA and a delta OTA, is that a full one can be
> installed by the user, but it only makes sense to install the correct delta
> between the current installed version and the newly available version.

Yes. Agreed.

What is most important to flesh out the SUBJECT of this thread is for you to
let us know if you can keep installing the project Mainline modules over the
"Google Play System Update" Mechanism.

I'm not even sure if the Google Play System Update mechanism can be
controlled manually or not. Can it?

When there are no longer those OTA zip files on that URL waiting for you:
<https://developers.google.com/android/ota>

My question to you, moving forward, is:
*How do you plan on updating the Google Play System Update version?*

>> a. Android version update <== It seems that the "full" OTA includes this
>> b. Android security patch update <== The "full" OTA seems to include this
>> c. Google Play system update <== But does the "full" OTA also include this?
>
> I would suspect so, e.g. the ART and associated libraries, but we were never told.

Ah. Yes. I forgot. You said prior that the ART updated, and we _know_
they're part of Android 12's Mainline (and not in Android 11's Mainline).

The question for us to figure out, for the future, now that your OTA zip
files ended, is how to update the Google Play System Update version moving
forward.
a. Do you manually update the Google Play System Update moving forward?
b. Or will Google push it to you somehow over the net?

I do not know the answer but your Pixel 3 is in the perfect position to find
out (it may take a few months though as a Pixel3 only reached EOL recently).

> crosshatch=pixel3XL blueline=pixel3, but yes

BTW, what confused me a lot is you kept using "OTA" but, in reality, nothing
was being done "over the air". It was all done over the net.

That confused me.

> Yes, pixel owners are used to a single, monthly update, sometimes it's a few 10s
> of MB, other times it's over 1 GB.

Thank you for making me aware of that. It's a nice Pixel feature, for sure
that you can download an "OTA" file over the net and install it at will.

> When my previous phone (Nexus5X) reached end of life, that was that, brick wall,
> no such thing as "one final update" a few months later, no core updates to
> firmware via play, so I bought a new phone and gave the old one to my Dad,
> despite being 3 years old it had newer firmware than his.

This is an important point _if_ Google updates the Project Mainline stuff
forever (or some version of forever, meaning there is no stated EOL date).

For example, on my iPad, Safari is updated with the iOS version, so when
they no longer update the iOS version, that's the end of Safari updates.

But, poignantly so, Chrome is _not_ updated with the Android OS version, so,
on my Android phone, no matter which Android version I have (about
4.something I think it is), Chrome can be updated by the user unilaterally.

My point is that Nexus5X wasn't as doomed as it would have been had it been
an iPad in so much as it still can update most of Android.

Just not the version & security patches.

But maybe...
Maybe...
Maybe that Nexus5X can _still_ get the project mainline files.
That is the question in the SUBJECT line after all.

> The play update mechanism appears to have changed in the past three months,
> either in practice, or in terms of visibility, it sounds encouraging, for those
> of us with phones > 3 years old, if it keeps them "somewhat" up to date within
> the same major version, rather than left to rot.

Absolutely.
That's my whole point.

As far as I know, Google has not stated any EOL date for the Project
Mainline two dozen core modules. And Google donates them to the AOSP.

Depending on what portion of Android those two dozen core modules comprise,
that would mean that _much_ of Android is still updated, even when the
Android version and security patches are no longer available for that phone.

Your Pixel 3 is beautifully positioned to figure this out for the team.

> I'm not convinced that google will actually be providing any fixes outside the
> core components, e.g. no qualcomm driver fixes (SoC, GPS, audio, camera, GPU
> DRM, codecs, sensors) that have also been updated monthly by the OTA.

I'm not sure.
That's really the SUBJECT after all.

Bear in mind I equate Project Treble with Project Mainline which "assumes"
Qualcomm does their part (treble) as does Google (mainline) to update us.

Again, you're perfectly positioned to figure that out for the team.

> After all why would they set a 3 year life, and then at the end of that life,
> still go on providing device specific fixes? The core components, yes I can see
> they have to produce them anyway, so slipping them out to all phones is a
> benefit that doesn't cost them much.

That statement confuses me a bit because I agree that it's likely something
like this for your Pixel 3... where this is my current guess
1. Android version ==> Your pixel 3 is forever stuck on Android 12
2. Android security patches ==> Your pixel 3 is forever done with the latest
3. Google Play System Updates ==> As far as I know, this has no EOL date

Assuming #3 is correct, the only question is _how_ we get those updates.

>> Is that right?
>
> With pixels, I think they have always come over the net

I see now, embarrassingly belatedly, whenever you and Bob Martin were
discussing "OTA", you always meant that you get those zip file over the net.

It's my fault for assuming you meant "over the air" so that's why you see me
confused when you think you've explained it clearly.

To me OTA had meant over the air; not over the net.
I apologize for my mistake.

>> Please do keep an eye on what happens to these three specific versions:
>> a. Android version
>> b. Android security patch version
>> c. Google Play system update version
>
> yes, I've taken screenshots of the version numbers that are exposed, I wish
> there was more specific version info was available, I tried inware but it's not
> much more detail.

inware?
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+is+android+inware>

Ah. I see.
*Inware* by evowizz (rated 4.4)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.evo.inware>

I never saw Inware in my searches as my filters filter out anything that
requires GSF (which Inware does). No big deal though. I'll download it.

I already use a few like this but I will try the "inware" app and compare.
*Device Info HW* by Andrey Efremov (rated 4.6)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.andr7e.deviceinfohw>
> <http://andyburns.uk/misc/pixel3_20220212.jpg>

Very few people post screenshots so I'm ecstatic that you did so.

Thank you for that screenshot which says:
a. Android version = 12
b. Security patch version = 5 October 2021 (you explained why it's oct)
c. Google Play System Update version = 2022-01-01 S+ (311323004)

InWare for me says the following version information on the Galaxy A32-5G.
a. Android version = 11
b. Security patch version = November 1, 2021
c. Google Play System Update version = 2021-06-01 (302001200)

However, Device Info HW for me uses different languages & values:
a. Android version = 11
b. Security = 01.11.21
c. Google Play Services = 21.48.15 (150400-414534850)
d. JavaVM = ART 2.1.0 (this is the Android runtime environment, I think)

Very important _new_ information arose this week over here:
*Big March Android System Update Through Google Play & Google Play Services*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fIAd_j1gC0w/m/oV1wA2V8BAAJ>

As a result of that information, I suspect I was wrong about (c) below.
a. Android version
b. Security version
c. Play version

It looks like the last item above is actually a complex triad, perhaps?
[1] Google Play System
[2] Google Play Services
[3] Google Play Store

Which I can collapse perhaps into "Google Play {System,Services,Store}"
given it's three (frustratingly confusing) versions which are related.

If that's correct, then I'll start to summarize that what matters is:
a. *Android version*
b. *Security version*
c. *Google Play {System,Services,Store} versions*

At the highest level, does _that_ triad above summarize what matters most?
If so, what we need is _others_ to report their recent update results.
c(y). Google Play System version (Settings > About > Software)
c(e). Google Play Services version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Services)
c(t). Google Play Store version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Store)

Locations for that "YET" triad are:
A. Google Play S(Y)stem version (Settings > About > Software)
B. Google Play S(E)rvices version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Services)
C. Google Play S(T)ore version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Store)

Each of us should report what these five versions are to help everyone.

My T-Mobile Samsung Galaxy A32-5G is currently at:
1. Android version 11
2. Security patch update version February 1, 2022
3. Google Play System version June 1 2021
4. Google Play Services version 22.02.21 (150400-428111784)
5. Google Play Store version 29.4.13-21 [0] [PR] 429618493

*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/m/q7-iaUiwBgAJ>
--
Usenet is a team sport where, together, we pitch in to learn about Android.

Bob Martin wrote:

> On my Pixel 3 running Android 12 the date of Google Play system update is
> under Settings/Security.
> Currently showing January 1, 2022

Bob Martin... can you help us by reading this thread posted recently.
*Big March Android System Update Through Google Play & Google Play Services*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fIAd_j1gC0w/m/oV1wA2V8BAAJ>

As a result of that information, I suspect I was wrong about (c) below.
a. Android version
b. Security version
c. Play version

It looks like the last item above is actually a complex triad, perhaps?
[1] Google Play System
[2] Google Play Services
[3] Google Play Store

Which I can collapse perhaps into "Google Play {System,Services,Store}"
given it's three (frustratingly confusing) versions which are related.

If that's correct, then I'll start to summarize that what matters is:
a. *Android version*
b. *Security version*
c. *Google Play {System,Services,Store} versions*

At the highest level, does _that_ triad above summarize what matters most?
If so, what we need is _others_ to report their recent update results.
c(y). Google Play System version (Settings > About > Software)
c(e). Google Play Services version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Services)
c(t). Google Play Store version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Store)

Locations for that "YET" triad are:
A. Google Play S(Y)stem version (Settings > About > Software)
B. Google Play S(E)rvices version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Services)
C. Google Play S(T)ore version (Settings > Apps > Google Play Store)

Each of us should report what these five versions are to help everyone.

My T-Mobile Samsung Galaxy A32-5G is currently at:
1. Android version 11
2. Security patch update version February 1, 2022
3. Google Play System version June 1 2021
4. Google Play Services version 22.02.21 (150400-428111784)
5. Google Play Store version 29.4.13-21 [0] [PR] 429618493

*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/m/q7-iaUiwBgAJ>
--
Usenet is a team sport where, together, we pitch in to learn about Android.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> 4. Google Play Services version 22.02.21 (150400-428111784)

Given this confusingly named triad (Google Play {System,Services,Store}),
I "think" I just proved that the Google Play _Services_ version can be
updated manually (or automatically) via the Google Play Store app.

Even though I do not set Android to a Google account, I can't delete the
Google Play Store client app, which I think is key to the updates.

The Google Play Store client _can_ update apps even without an account.
But I have my Google Play Store client settings set to not autoupdate.
Hence, all Google Play Store run updates would be fully manual for me.

Knowing from this thread that there are updates, I'll see what happens now.
*Big March Android System Update Through Google Play & Google Play Services*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fIAd_j1gC0w/m/oV1wA2V8BAAJ>
a. I opened up the default (unused) Google Play Store client app.
b. I pressed the Google Play Store Settings three-dots menu & then update.
c. Then I pressed the "Google Play Services" update (24MB) button.

Before:
1. Android version 11
2. Security patch update version February 1, 2022
3. Google Play System update June 1 2021
4. *Google Play Services version* 22.02.21 (150400-428111784)
5. Google Play Store version 29.4.13-21 [0] [PR] 429618493

After:
1. Android version 11
2. Security patch update version February 1, 2022
3. Google Play System version June 1 2021
4. *Google Play Services version* 22.06.15 (150400-428792003)
5. Google Play Store version 29.4.13-21 [0] [PR] 429618493

Given this confusingly named triad (Google Play {System,Services,Store}),
I "think" I just proved that the Google Play _Services_ version can be
updated manually (or automatically) via the Google Play Store app.
--
Usenet is for purposefully helpful kind-hearted people to teach each other.

Apparently... (as far as anyone can tell, at least so far, it seems...)
*Almost all of Android is updated forever* (i.e., there is no EOL date!)

As with all _modern_ operating systems, Android is composed of multiple
layers, most of which appear to be updated independently, such as:
a. *Android version*
b. *Security version*
c. *Google Play {System,Services,Store} versions*
Note there are over two dozen core modules updated in just (c) above.
As far as anyone knows, these are updated forever (there is no EOL).

On the Android newsgroup for the past month, a few of us have been testing
how long "forever" happens to be, where some people with the Pixel 3's are
apparently still getting updates despite any previously published EOL dates.
*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/m/q7-iaUiwBgAJ>

Backing up those tests, Google released updates to essentially _all Android
phones_ this week, which a few of us tested to be the case.
*Big March Android System Update Through Google Play & Google Play Services*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/fIAd_j1gC0w/m/oV1wA2V8BAAJ>

What was updated this week for all Android phones was a combination of the
above Google based layers that are updated over the Internet independently.

But other layers are also updated completely independently & often forever.
1. User apps are often updated forever (and very many are open source);
2. Key apps like Chrome are updated forever (some of those are open source);
3. Firmware (such as the Qualcomm modem firmware) are updated over the net;
4. Security updates (these are rolled out monthly)
5. Android versions (these are what changes Android 11, say, to Android 12);
6. Core modules (updated either over GPS on the net or OTA by partners);
[In addition, all core modules are donated to AOSP to maintain forever.]

In the "core modules" area alone, Google updated almost all phones today.
*Big March Android System Update Through Google Play & Google Play Services*
<https://www.droid-life.com/2022/03/01/google-system-update-march-improvements/>
"This isn't just a Google Pixel update that comes out each month
and is instead a platform-level set of updates for all or most
Android phones. Google has issued this type of stuff for some time."

*The March 2022 Google System Update is chock-full of changes*
<https://www.androidcentral.com/phones/the-march-2022-google-system-update-is-chock-full-of-changes>
"Google has released the March 2022 System Updates.
These updates are available for all Android devices, not just Pixels"

*Android March 2022 update unveiled*
<https://www.tomsguide.com/news/android-march-2022-update-unveiled-all-the-new-features-for-your-phone>
"The Google System Update for March 2022 includes a host of tweaks
and new features coming to most Android phones."

*What is Google Play System Update?*
<https://www.insidetechno.com/get-latest-google-play-system-update/>
"From now on, an update will be shared with the public every month
on new features and fixes to issues. Google has a new support page
that keeps detailed records of all system updates made to Google Play.
The first roundup was posted in December 2021."

This is the page which explains what's in these Android-forever updates.
*What's new in Google System Updates*
<https://support.google.com/product-documentation/answer/11412553>
--
Usenet is an assemblage of purposefully helpful people teaching each other.

As a related aside, and as we've determined "most" of Android is updated
forever (i.e., there is no stated EOL date), the two things that _do_ have
stated EOL dates are the
a. Android version
b. Security patch level

This article shows that Samsung has the longest dates for those two things.
*Google just surrendered its update authority to Samsung*
<https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-vs-google-updates-3104089/>
"With a promise of four years worth of OS updates
and five years of security patches, Samsung's guarantee
is the best in the Android business.
Even more astounding is that Samsung is backdating its pledge
to include older devices as well."

"Samsung's latest policy is even better than Google's
three OS and five years of security pledge that came
with the Pixel 6 series."

Bearing in mind that most of Android is outside those two things,
the article went into the history, saying
"Google and its partners put a lot of work into initiatives
like 2017's Project Treble, 2019's Project Mainline,
and working with chipset vendors like Qualcomm to support
four Android OS versions since the end of 2020."

*Understanding Project Treble and Android updates*
<https://www.androidauthority.com/project-treble-818225/>
"To solve the hardware abstraction layer issue,
Android 8.0 Oreo and later version like Android 9.0 Pie
formalize the division between hardware subsystems like audio or camera,
and their clients on the software side. These new formal divisions
specify the interface between a HAL and its users.
There are now around 60 formal interfaces for various
hardware components, known as HIDLs."

*Google reveals Project Mainline:*
*Get Android component updates via Google Play*
<https://www.androidauthority.com/google-project-mainline-984001/>
"Google has announced Project Mainline, allowing core Android components
to be updated via Google Play.
Core Android components previously had to be updated via a full
OTA update from a manufacturer.
Google says another benefit is that major security fixes
can be deployed via this method."

*Google, Qualcomm make it easier to update Android phones*
*with Snapdragon chips*
<https://www.androidauthority.com/google-qualcomm-extend-android-updates-for-snapdragon-1186099/>
"Google and Qualcomm are teaming up to extend Android updates
for Snapdragon phones.
It should be easier to give phones up to four Android OS versions,
and four years of security updates.
You�ll need a phone using the Snapdragon 888 or newer."
--
Every thread on Usenet serves as a permanent reference for future users.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> as we've determined "most" of Android is updated forever
I think we've determined that there *are* mechanisms where large parts of
android could be updated, be we seem to be seeing a lack of appetite (at least
for pixel devices) for the manufacturers to use them ...

Were any of your samsung devices affected by the weak cryptostorage issue, have
they received the fix?

Also a lack of willingness to give clear version indicators letting us see what
versions we may have received updates for.

I keep meaning to copy some of the APEX files over to a linux box where I can
mount them as loopback filesystems and see inside, but sorry I'm busy with
life/work at moment.

Andy Burns wrote:

>> as we've determined "most" of Android is updated forever

> I think we've determined that there *are* mechanisms where large parts of
> android could be updated, be we seem to be seeing a lack of appetite (at least
> for pixel devices) for the manufacturers to use them ...

Hi Andy,

It behooves us to nail this down as I'm confused what is updated when & how.

While there are at least a half dozen important layers of Android which are
updated on a variety of schedules, I think the fundamental layers may be:
a. The Android key app version levels
b. The Android version & security patch levels
c. The Google Play {System,Services,Store} update levels

While (a) is clearly forever (meaning frequent updates with no stated EOL),
and while (b) is clearly an advertised number of years and OS versions, it's
(c) that has changed greatly since Android 10 when Projects {Treble &
Mainline} were devised way back in 2017.

Like you said, we've established that they _can_ update; but do they?
I don't know.
> Were any of your samsung devices affected by the weak cryptostorage issue, have
> they received the fix?

I'm not one who keeps up with the latest versions of anything, and, given I
disable a lot of Google services on my phone (as I do Microsoft services on
Windows), I may not be the best person to ask this question of.

The recent articles "claimed" that "almost all" Android devices will be
updated with the recent update, but we don't know for sure _what_ they
updated (at least I don't know that for sure).

I wish they'd put all the settings in the same location, but they don't:
1. Settings > Software update
2. Settings > About phone > Software information
3. Settings > Apps > Your apps > Google Play {Services,Store}
4. Google Play Store > ... > Settings > About > Play Store version > Update Play Store
5. Google Play Store > ... > Updates

I just looked at my Samsung Galaxy A32-5G which has the following:
a. I never update the key apps (most of which I disable on sight)
b. Android 11 (update scheduled for May) & Feb 2022 security patch level
c. Google Play {System,Services,Store}
System === June 1, 2021
Services === 22.06.15
Store === 29.5.14-21
d. Google Services Framework === 11-6684105

Note that is a different version than the Google Play Store APK stored here:
<https://www.apkmirror.com/apk/google-inc/google-play-store/>
Google Play Store 29.6.17
<https://www.apkmirror.com/apk/google-inc/google-play-store/google-play-store-29-6-17-release/>

But then I noticed that the Google Play Store has an 11MB update available.
... Pending
... Downloading
... Installing
That updated Google Play Services (which I had already recently updated!) to
Services === 22.06.18

Now that my Aurora Store is working again, I turned off the filter to not
show Google apps, and then checked for updates to my google play store app.
I couldn't find the "Google Play Store" on Aurora so I resorted to a search.
<https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/113412>
Google Play Store > ... > Settings > About > Play Store version > Update Play Store
But it says my Google Play Store app is "up to date".

I also cleared the cache and data for the Google Play Store app and I
rebooted because, as you're aware, Google slips some things in so
surreptitiously that even we don't know it's there until we do that.

> Also a lack of willingness to give clear version indicators letting us see what
> versions we may have received updates for.

Yup. It's frustrating. Google needs to hire people like you and me who know
how to design a spec for how the versions should be provided to users.

It's a disorganized mess that everything is both updated in a different
place, and the update versions are each displayed in a different place.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Were any of your samsung devices affected by the weak cryptostorage issue,
>> have they received the fix?
>
> I may not be the best person to ask this question of.

CVE-2021-25444, but presumably you don't store crypto data on a phone?

Even if you don't use it, interesting to see if the fix has made its way to you

Andy Burns wrote:

> CVE-2021-25444, but presumably you don't store crypto data on a phone?

The only "crypto" I personally store on my Android 11 Samsung phone are
a. Keepass password databases
b. TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt encrypted containers

I don't even use a PIN or fingerprint or face id, as I don't live in a slum.

However, I don't even know _how_ to tell if that fix made it to my phone.
Where would I look and what would I be looking for on the phone?

> Even if you don't use it, interesting to see if the fix has made its way to you

This implies it's not for Android 11 but only for Android 10, 8, & 9 only.
<https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2021-25444>

This says directly it only affects those versions of Android.
<https://security.samsungmobile.com/securityUpdate.smsb>
SVE-2021-21948 (CVE-2021-25444): IV reuse in Keymaster TA
Reported on: May 25, 2021
Affected versions: O(8.1), P(9.0), Q(10.0)

Hence my response to you is twofold:
1. How would I know if a given CVE is patched onto my phone?
2. Even if I did know, it doesn't seem like my phone needs that patch.

在 2022年3月11日星期五 UTC-8 05:14:13，<Andy Burnelli> 写道：
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
> > CVE-2021-25444, but presumably you don't store crypto data on a phone?
> The only "crypto" I personally store on my Android 11 Samsung phone are
> a. Keepass password databases
> b. TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt encrypted containers
>
> I don't even use a PIN or fingerprint or face id, as I don't live in a slum.
>
> However, I don't even know _how_ to tell if that fix made it to my phone.
> Where would I look and what would I be looking for on the phone?
> > Even if you don't use it, interesting to see if the fix has made its way to you
> This implies it's not for Android 11 but only for Android 10, 8, & 9 only..
> <https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2021-25444>
>
> This says directly it only affects those versions of Android.
> <https://security.samsungmobile.com/securityUpdate.smsb>
> SVE-2021-21948 (CVE-2021-25444): IV reuse in Keymaster TA
> Reported on: May 25, 2021
> Affected versions: O(8.1), P(9.0), Q(10.0)
>
> Hence my response to you is twofold:
> 1. How would I know if a given CVE is patched onto my phone?
> 2. Even if I did know, it doesn't seem like my phone needs that patch.
Top 7 PDF Background Removers in 2023
https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/pdf-background-remover

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:55:16 PM UTC-7, Skylly W wrote:
> 在 2022年3月11日星期五 UTC-8 05:14:13，<Andy Burnelli> 写道：
> > Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> > > CVE-2021-25444, but presumably you don't store crypto data on a phone?
> > The only "crypto" I personally store on my Android 11 Samsung phone are
> > a. Keepass password databases
> > b. TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt encrypted containers
> >
> > I don't even use a PIN or fingerprint or face id, as I don't live in a slum.
> >
> > However, I don't even know _how_ to tell if that fix made it to my phone.
> > Where would I look and what would I be looking for on the phone?
> > > Even if you don't use it, interesting to see if the fix has made its way to you
> > This implies it's not for Android 11 but only for Android 10, 8, & 9 only.
> > <https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2021-25444>
> >
> > This says directly it only affects those versions of Android.
> > <https://security.samsungmobile.com/securityUpdate.smsb>
> > SVE-2021-21948 (CVE-2021-25444): IV reuse in Keymaster TA
> > Reported on: May 25, 2021
> > Affected versions: O(8.1), P(9.0), Q(10.0)
> >
> > Hence my response to you is twofold:
> > 1. How would I know if a given CVE is patched onto my phone?
> > 2. Even if I did know, it doesn't seem like my phone needs that patch.
> Top 7 PDF Background Removers in 2023
> https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/pdf-background-remover
How to Screen Record on Windows [Windows 11/10/8/7]
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-screen-record-on-windows

On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 12:10:35 AM UTC-7, Areil Barte wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:55:16 PM UTC-7, Skylly W wrote:
> > 在 2022年3月11日星期五 UTC-8 05:14:13，<Andy Burnelli> 写道：
> > > Andy Burns wrote:
> > >
> > > > CVE-2021-25444, but presumably you don't store crypto data on a phone?
> > > The only "crypto" I personally store on my Android 11 Samsung phone are
> > > a. Keepass password databases
> > > b. TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt encrypted containers
> > >
> > > I don't even use a PIN or fingerprint or face id, as I don't live in a slum.
> > >
> > > However, I don't even know _how_ to tell if that fix made it to my phone.
> > > Where would I look and what would I be looking for on the phone?
> > > > Even if you don't use it, interesting to see if the fix has made its way to you
> > > This implies it's not for Android 11 but only for Android 10, 8, & 9 only.
> > > <https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2021-25444>
> > >
> > > This says directly it only affects those versions of Android.
> > > <https://security.samsungmobile.com/securityUpdate.smsb>
> > > SVE-2021-21948 (CVE-2021-25444): IV reuse in Keymaster TA
> > > Reported on: May 25, 2021
> > > Affected versions: O(8.1), P(9.0), Q(10.0)
> > >
> > > Hence my response to you is twofold:
> > > 1. How would I know if a given CVE is patched onto my phone?
> > > 2. Even if I did know, it doesn't seem like my phone needs that patch..
> > Top 7 PDF Background Removers in 2023
> > https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/pdf-background-remover
> How to Screen Record on Windows [Windows 11/10/8/7]
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-screen-record-on-windows
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-record-audio-on-powerpoint
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-download-videos-from-twitter
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-record-teams-meeting
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-record-audio-on-iphone
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/chrome-record-screen
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/instagram-reels-audio-download
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/youtube-to-mp3-converter
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-stream-netflix-on-discord
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/screen-record-snapchat
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/screenshot-google-maps
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-stream-switch-on-discord
https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/record-audio-from-computer

在 2023年7月18日星期二 UTC-7 00:12:42，<Areil Barte> 写道：
> On Tuesday, July 18, 2023 at 12:10:35 AM UTC-7, Areil Barte wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:55:16 PM UTC-7, Skylly W wrote:
> > > 在 2022年3月11日星期五 UTC-8 05:14:13，<Andy Burnelli> 写道：
> > > > Andy Burns wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > CVE-2021-25444, but presumably you don't store crypto data on a phone?
> > > > The only "crypto" I personally store on my Android 11 Samsung phone are
> > > > a. Keepass password databases
> > > > b. TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt encrypted containers
> > > >
> > > > I don't even use a PIN or fingerprint or face id, as I don't live in a slum.
> > > >
> > > > However, I don't even know _how_ to tell if that fix made it to my phone.
> > > > Where would I look and what would I be looking for on the phone?
> > > > > Even if you don't use it, interesting to see if the fix has made its way to you
> > > > This implies it's not for Android 11 but only for Android 10, 8, & 9 only.
> > > > <https://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2021-25444>
> > > >
> > > > This says directly it only affects those versions of Android.
> > > > <https://security.samsungmobile.com/securityUpdate.smsb>
> > > > SVE-2021-21948 (CVE-2021-25444): IV reuse in Keymaster TA
> > > > Reported on: May 25, 2021
> > > > Affected versions: O(8.1), P(9.0), Q(10.0)
> > > >
> > > > Hence my response to you is twofold:
> > > > 1. How would I know if a given CVE is patched onto my phone?
> > > > 2. Even if I did know, it doesn't seem like my phone needs that patch.
> > > Top 7 PDF Background Removers in 2023
> > > https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/pdf-background-remover
> > How to Screen Record on Windows [Windows 11/10/8/7]
> > https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-screen-record-on-windows
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-record-audio-on-powerpoint
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-download-videos-from-twitter
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-record-teams-meeting
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-record-audio-on-iphone
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/chrome-record-screen
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/instagram-reels-audio-download
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/youtube-to-mp3-converter
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-stream-netflix-on-discord
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/screen-record-snapchat
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/screenshot-google-maps
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/how-to-stream-switch-on-discord
> https://www.awzware.com/screen-recording/record-audio-from-computer
https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/combine-jpg-images-into-one-pdf
https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/how-to-save-pdf-as-word
https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/how-to-print-double-sided-pdf
https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/pdf-word-count
https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/remove-watermark-from-pdf
https://www.swifdoo.com/blog/how-to-add-pages-to-pdf
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