This damn thing has 26 iterations for startup.
What the devil is that all about?

Ed

On 29/09/2023 11:11, Ed Cryer wrote:
> This damn thing has 26 iterations for startup.
> What the devil is that all about?
>
> Ed

With one tab open mine starts with 8 but likewise Firefox starts with 9
so its just the way these things work. At least Edge tells me what each
one is for whereas Firefox labels them all Firefox.

Ed Cryer wrote:
> This damn thing has 26 iterations for startup.
> What the devil is that all about?
>
> Ed
After 1 minute of opening all 4(Firefox, Chrome, Edge, SeaMonkey)
Firefox - 17
Chrome -13
Edge - 7
SeaMonkey -1

Hint for Chrome and Edge - Configuration found in settings makes a
difference

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 9/29/2023 6:11 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
> This damn thing has 26 iterations for startup.
> What the devil is that all about?
>
> Ed

I'd have done these with win32 executables, but I can't
get the role to display, so I have to "approximate for educational purposes".

I can show some info from a bash-shell launched Firefox, to illustrate.
The browsers are using process isolation, to limit the reach of
"browser exploits". Say for example, you are playing a VP8 movie
and it is malformed and it tips over the process which decodes
movies (not shown - maybe it starts just when the movie plays).
The browser carries on, and maybe the error console shows the
movie died while it was playing. Clicking the video frame, might
start the movie playing again (if you dare).

WALLACE$ ps
PID TTY TIME CMD
525 pts/0 00:00:00 bash

801 pts/0 00:00:03 firefox <=== parent process
876 pts/0 00:00:00 Socket Process
924 pts/0 00:00:00 Privileged Cont[ainer]
978 pts/0 00:00:00 WebExtensions <=== process just for "plugins" ?
1048 pts/0 00:00:00 Web Content \
1051 pts/0 00:00:00 Web Content \___ These handle tabs. The parent can fork more
1055 pts/0 00:00:00 Web Content / of these, as the tab count rises.

WALLACE$ ps aguwwwx | grep firefox
801 18.8 1.2 3302320 414436 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:03 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox
876 0.1 0.1 210460 47540 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... socket
924 4.6 0.4 2492192 152024 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
978 1.1 0.3 2445804 105404 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
1048 0.1 0.2 2389928 75636 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
1051 0.2 0.2 2389928 77184 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
1055 0.2 0.2 2389928 76596 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
WALLACE$

Without process isolation, a movie playing *could* have
taken down the browser and... infected the OS with the exploit
the movie source was planning. By making the movie player
"non-privileged" and isolating it from the rest of the
browser, the hope is that any damage can be limited.

*******

I loaded MSEdge into Linux (a VM on this machine) and this is what it looks like.
Notice how the PPID numbers show a two layer process model. The parent
feeds three zygotes, the zygotes herd turtles underneath them, all
in the name of process isolation. Chrome should have a similar structure.

PID PPID

bullwin+ 6723 2406 0 8592134 274132 3 11:30 pts/0 00:00:01 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge
bullwin+ 6733 6723 0 8493945 65024 2 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=zygote
bullwin+ 6734 6723 0 8493943 65536 3 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=zygote
bullwin+ 6735 6734 0 8390905 3968 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/nacl_helper
bullwin+ 6738 6734 0 8493949 18348 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=zygote
bullwin+ 6764 6733 0 8568202 129740 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:01 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=gpu-process
bullwin+ 6768 6723 0 8502675 94604 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=utility
bullwin+ 6790 6738 0 8504454 40024 2 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=utility
bullwin+ 6797 6738 0 296738478 63252 0 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=renderer
bullwin+ 6798 6738 3 297280014 259816 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:13 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=renderer

The parent "2406" is likely the bash shell I launched /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge from.
The 6723 PID is the parent for the rest of the stuff.

To really see the whole thing, I'd have to go to a news site and
play a video, and see what else shows up.

*******

In Win11, MSEdge would have two sets. It has the web browser set.
But it also has a set used for "OS consumption", if a program needs
HTML/js services of some sort. The browser may disappear, but if
you expect some of the system graphical services to work,
you shouldn't necessarily kill the second set.

Paul

Paul wrote:
> On 9/29/2023 6:11 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:
>> This damn thing has 26 iterations for startup.
>> What the devil is that all about?
>>
>> Ed
>
> I'd have done these with win32 executables, but I can't
> get the role to display, so I have to "approximate for educational purposes".
>
> I can show some info from a bash-shell launched Firefox, to illustrate.
> The browsers are using process isolation, to limit the reach of
> "browser exploits". Say for example, you are playing a VP8 movie
> and it is malformed and it tips over the process which decodes
> movies (not shown - maybe it starts just when the movie plays).
> The browser carries on, and maybe the error console shows the
> movie died while it was playing. Clicking the video frame, might
> start the movie playing again (if you dare).
>
> WALLACE$ ps
> PID TTY TIME CMD
> 525 pts/0 00:00:00 bash
>
> 801 pts/0 00:00:03 firefox <=== parent process
> 876 pts/0 00:00:00 Socket Process
> 924 pts/0 00:00:00 Privileged Cont[ainer]
> 978 pts/0 00:00:00 WebExtensions <=== process just for "plugins" ?
> 1048 pts/0 00:00:00 Web Content \
> 1051 pts/0 00:00:00 Web Content \___ These handle tabs. The parent can fork more
> 1055 pts/0 00:00:00 Web Content / of these, as the tab count rises.
>
> WALLACE$ ps aguwwwx | grep firefox
> 801 18.8 1.2 3302320 414436 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:03 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox
> 876 0.1 0.1 210460 47540 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... socket
> 924 4.6 0.4 2492192 152024 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
> 978 1.1 0.3 2445804 105404 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
> 1048 0.1 0.2 2389928 75636 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
> 1051 0.2 0.2 2389928 77184 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
> 1055 0.2 0.2 2389928 76596 pts/0 Sl 10:35 0:00 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox ... tab
> WALLACE$
>
> Without process isolation, a movie playing *could* have
> taken down the browser and... infected the OS with the exploit
> the movie source was planning. By making the movie player
> "non-privileged" and isolating it from the rest of the
> browser, the hope is that any damage can be limited.
>
> *******
>
> I loaded MSEdge into Linux (a VM on this machine) and this is what it looks like.
> Notice how the PPID numbers show a two layer process model. The parent
> feeds three zygotes, the zygotes herd turtles underneath them, all
> in the name of process isolation. Chrome should have a similar structure.
>
> PID PPID
>
> bullwin+ 6723 2406 0 8592134 274132 3 11:30 pts/0 00:00:01 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge
> bullwin+ 6733 6723 0 8493945 65024 2 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=zygote
> bullwin+ 6734 6723 0 8493943 65536 3 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=zygote
> bullwin+ 6735 6734 0 8390905 3968 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/nacl_helper
> bullwin+ 6738 6734 0 8493949 18348 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=zygote
> bullwin+ 6764 6733 0 8568202 129740 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:01 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=gpu-process
> bullwin+ 6768 6723 0 8502675 94604 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=utility
> bullwin+ 6790 6738 0 8504454 40024 2 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=utility
> bullwin+ 6797 6738 0 296738478 63252 0 11:30 pts/0 00:00:00 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=renderer
> bullwin+ 6798 6738 3 297280014 259816 1 11:30 pts/0 00:00:13 /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge --type=renderer
>
> The parent "2406" is likely the bash shell I launched /opt/microsoft/msedge/msedge from.
> The 6723 PID is the parent for the rest of the stuff.
>
> To really see the whole thing, I'd have to go to a news site and
> play a video, and see what else shows up.
>
> *******
>
> In Win11, MSEdge would have two sets. It has the web browser set.
> But it also has a set used for "OS consumption", if a program needs
> HTML/js services of some sort. The browser may disappear, but if
> you expect some of the system graphical services to work,
> you shouldn't necessarily kill the second set.
>
> Paul

Why does Widows require all those iterations?
Here's my thinking;
A browser is a browser.
It surfs the Net using input parameters.
It can do that with one version loaded.
Any more iterations ask the question; What are you doing here?

Ed

On 9/29/2023 2:17 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:

> Why does Widows require all those iterations?
> Here's my thinking;
> A browser is a browser.
> It surfs the Net using input parameters.
> It can do that with one version loaded.
> Any more iterations ask the question; What are you doing here?
>
> Ed
>

It's sorta like sandboxing, where "dangerous" or
"things with larger attack surfaces" are put inside
their own process.

The processes communicate with pipes.

request
Parent ----------> Movie Decoder
<-------
ack

The children can be simplified things.
Perhaps they don't even "network" in a
conventional sense. Or parse Javascript
or HTML.

Chrome was first to do this, and Firefox
came next, followed by MSEdge making a xerox
copy of Chrome (multiple processes and all).

At one time, during the transition, you
could flip the thing back to "single process"
and "conventional model". But eventually that
option was removed, once they ground the rough
edges off their invention. It used to be slow
as molasses to start up and shut down. (20 seconds
would not have been abnormal, at first.)

Paul