On 2023-08-24, Phil Howell <phow9917@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I used to work for NCR in the 1970s on their I-series machines,
> these were minis that would compete with the VAX when it came out (1977)
> as well as with Burroughs Univac and IBM and some others (DG HP)
> All the OS and utilities were written in a block structured ALGOL-like language,
> When a machine was installed at a customer site, one of the first things to do
> was to run a sysgen, which compiled and linked all this to build a system image to run,
> this was then saved to disk for subsequent use.
> This in-house language was strictly for use only by systems programmers in
> head office, and not released (AFAIK), but the resultant systems proved very reliable.
> But then DEC in the 1980s was way more successful than NCR or DG anyway...
>

That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
saying, the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established
by the mid-1970s. (I'm going off historical documents and the
recollections of people here as in the mid 1970s I wasn't even in
secondary school yet. :-)).

One thing of interest above is you say the OS itself was also written
in this language. Are you referring to the kernel-level code here
or something else ?

Based on what people have said in this thread, I was able to track down
the Algol variant used in AOS/VS. It's called DG/L and has a Wikipedia
page here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DG/L

The Algol 60 language page is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algol_60

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
> saying, the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established
> by the mid-1970s.

The idea was fairly widespread quite a bit earlier, actually. Burroughs
did ESPOL (an Algol derivative systems language) in starting in 1966.
IBM first described BSL in 1968; it evolved into PL/S, PL/X, etc, which
are still used in OS and VM. The folks who founded Prime wrote a DOS
for the Honeywell x16 machines in 1968, and later used it as the basis
for their product in 1973. CMU first released BLISS in 1970.

None of that means people quit doing things in assembler, of course, but
the writing was on the wall in the '60s. CP/M first had a bunch of PL/1
derivative code, some of which which was later recoded in assembler.
BSL and PL/S notwithstanding, IBM still has a fair amount of assembler
in their stuff.

Jean Sammet wrote a paper on this sort of thing in 1971:

https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=807055

De

On 2023-08-24, Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
> > That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
> > saying, the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established
> > by the mid-1970s.
>
> The idea was fairly widespread quite a bit earlier, actually. Burroughs
> did ESPOL (an Algol derivative systems language) in starting in 1966.

Just done some reading about this and the follow-on language NEWP.

It has now become _very_ clear to me that the use of ALGOL-based languages
in OS development was very seriously widespread by the time DEC came to
design VMS. Pity DEC didn't join them.

Thanks to everyone for the references.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-08-25 14:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-08-24, Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>>> saying, the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established
>>> by the mid-1970s.
>>
>> The idea was fairly widespread quite a bit earlier, actually. Burroughs
>> did ESPOL (an Algol derivative systems language) in starting in 1966.
>
> Just done some reading about this and the follow-on language NEWP.
>
> It has now become _very_ clear to me that the use of ALGOL-based languages
> in OS development was very seriously widespread by the time DEC came to
> design VMS. Pity DEC didn't join them.

Including Multics. Not an outstanding success exactly...
Most companies that went that way early was way less successful than
DEC, so it is kindof strange to claim that DEC did it wrong and they did
it right...

Johnny

On 2023-08-25, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-08-25 14:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-08-24, Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>>>> saying, the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established
>>>> by the mid-1970s.
>>>
>>> The idea was fairly widespread quite a bit earlier, actually. Burroughs
>>> did ESPOL (an Algol derivative systems language) in starting in 1966.
>>
>> Just done some reading about this and the follow-on language NEWP.
>>
>> It has now become _very_ clear to me that the use of ALGOL-based languages
>> in OS development was very seriously widespread by the time DEC came to
>> design VMS. Pity DEC didn't join them.
>
> Including Multics. Not an outstanding success exactly...
> Most companies that went that way early was way less successful than
> DEC, so it is kindof strange to claim that DEC did it wrong and they did
> it right...
>

In way too many cases, marketing success (at least in the short term,
and sometimes in the longer term) doesn't appear to be related to
technical elegance.

After all, we all use Windows...

OTOH, Unix with its portable HLL approach, has outlasted VMS...

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:39:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:

> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
> saying,
> the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established by the
> mid-1970s. (I'm going off historical documents and the recollections of
> people here as in the mid 1970s I wasn't even in secondary school yet.
> ).
>
> One thing of interest above is you say the OS itself was also written in
> this language. Are you referring to the kernel-level code here or
> something else ?

And starting in 1966...

http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/EMAS/EMAS_Papers/
EMAS_The_Edinburgh_Multi_Access_System.pdf

Or for my lecture on it (I was involved, as you will see):

http://www.bobeager.uk/emas/

On 25/08/2023 14:14, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:39:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>> saying,
>> the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established by the
>> mid-1970s. (I'm going off historical documents and the recollections of
>> people here as in the mid 1970s I wasn't even in secondary school yet.
>> ).
>>
>> One thing of interest above is you say the OS itself was also written in
>> this language. Are you referring to the kernel-level code here or
>> something else ?
>
> And starting in 1966...
>
> http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/EMAS/EMAS_Papers/
> EMAS_The_Edinburgh_Multi_Access_System.pdf
>
> Or for my lecture on it (I was involved, as you will see):
>
> http://www.bobeager.uk/emas/

Just adding another toot of the horn. I am an Edinburgh Computer
Science graduate, so my early background is EMAS and its implementation
language IMP, both of which I still miss today. A good number of my
class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:

> On 2023-08-25 14:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-08-24, Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:

>>>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>>>> saying, the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established
>>>> by the mid-1970s.

>>> The idea was fairly widespread quite a bit earlier, actually. Burroughs
>>> did ESPOL (an Algol derivative systems language) in starting in 1966.

>> Just done some reading about this and the follow-on language NEWP.

>> It has now become _very_ clear to me that the use of ALGOL-based languages
>> in OS development was very seriously widespread by the time DEC came to
>> design VMS. Pity DEC didn't join them.

> Including Multics. Not an outstanding success exactly...
> Most companies that went that way early was way less successful than
> DEC, so it is kindof strange to claim that DEC did it wrong and they did
> it right...

Many of the companies which did this were competing in the mainframe universe
(the Seven Dwarfs, later consolidated into the BUNCH) against the number 1
company in that universe.

The companies in the minicomputer universe who did this were also competing
against the number 1 company in THAT universe.

Hard to shift the 400kg gorilla.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 17:38:31 +0100, Roy Omond wrote:

> On 25/08/2023 14:14, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:39:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>>> saying,
>>> the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established by the
>>> mid-1970s. (I'm going off historical documents and the recollections
>>> of people here as in the mid 1970s I wasn't even in secondary school
>>> yet. ).
>>>
>>> One thing of interest above is you say the OS itself was also written
>>> in this language. Are you referring to the kernel-level code here or
>>> something else ?
>>
>> And starting in 1966...
>>
>> http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/EMAS/EMAS_Papers/
>> EMAS_The_Edinburgh_Multi_Access_System.pdf
>>
>> Or for my lecture on it (I was involved, as you will see):
>>
>> http://www.bobeager.uk/emas/
>
> Just adding another toot of the horn. I am an Edinburgh Computer
> Science graduate, so my early background is EMAS and its implementation
> language IMP, both of which I still miss today. A good number of my
> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).

I am looking at resurrecting EMAS. There are IMP compilers around, still.
Someone I know has written a viable IMP to C translator.

And you may find the end of my lecture rather interesting.

On 8/25/2023 12:38 PM, Roy Omond wrote:
> A good number of my
> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).

Ah, isn't sort of like asking if anyone remembers the TK50 or
RC25?

--

--- Rob

On 8/25/2023 5:50 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> On 8/25/2023 12:38 PM, Roy Omond wrote:
>>    A good number of my
>> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
>
> Ah, isn't sort of like asking if anyone remembers the TK50 or
> RC25?
>

Some of us do. I had an RC25 and I still have TK50's... :-)

bill

On 8/25/2023 5:50 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> On 8/25/2023 12:38 PM, Roy Omond wrote:
>>    A good number of my
>> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
>
> Ah, isn't sort of like asking if anyone remembers the TK50 or
> RC25?

Everyone that had to wait for a MicroVAX II to boot on
a TK50 tape probably remember ...

Arne

On 8/25/2023 9:03 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-08-25, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2023-08-25 14:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> It has now become _very_ clear to me that the use of ALGOL-based languages
>>> in OS development was very seriously widespread by the time DEC came to
>>> design VMS. Pity DEC didn't join them.
>>
>> Including Multics. Not an outstanding success exactly...
>> Most companies that went that way early was way less successful than
>> DEC, so it is kindof strange to claim that DEC did it wrong and they did
>> it right...
>>
>
> In way too many cases, marketing success (at least in the short term,
> and sometimes in the longer term) doesn't appear to be related to
> technical elegance.
>
> After all, we all use Windows...
>
> OTOH, Unix with its portable HLL approach, has outlasted VMS...

VMS still exist.

If we limit Unix to kernel of Unix origin then I don't see it as
unrealistic that VMS outlast Unix.

Tru64 is dead. HP-UX is practically dead. Solaris is close to dead.
AIX is not well. And FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD seem to increasingly
get status of hobby OS for enthusiasts.

Arne

In article <mddbkeuq2ya.fsf@panix5.panix.com>,
news@alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) wrote:

> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> > Most companies that went that way early was way less successful
> > than DEC, so it is kindof strange to claim that DEC did it wrong
> > and they did it right...
>
> Many of the companies which did this were competing in the
> mainframe universe (the Seven Dwarfs, later consolidated
> into the BUNCH) against the number 1 company in that universe.

And IBM was re-writing its mainframe operating systems in the PL/S
derivative of PL/I <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PL/S> in the early
1970s. That is still used to maintain them.

> The companies in the minicomputer universe who did this were also
> competing against the number 1 company in THAT universe.

However, DEC's "High-Level Language" for systems programming was BLISS,
which is a lot closer to the machine and less portable than PL/S or C.
DEC had plenty of good ideas for fixing this in the 1980s and early 1990s,
but they all got cancelled until Alpha. That ended up using C for a lot
of the additions to VMS, and the rise of PCs and RISC platforms meant DEC
was already in deep trouble by then.

John

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 5:17:02 PM UTC-7, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 8/25/2023 5:50 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> > On 8/25/2023 12:38 PM, Roy Omond wrote:
> >> A good number of my
> >> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
> >
> > Ah, isn't sort of like asking if anyone remembers the TK50 or
> > RC25?
> Everyone that had to wait for a MicroVAX II to boot on
> a TK50 tape probably remember ...
>
> Arne

You may remember the famous comedian, Ernie Slo-VAX, after whom it was named.

On 8/25/2023 8:17 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 8/25/2023 5:50 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
>> On 8/25/2023 12:38 PM, Roy Omond wrote:
>>>    A good number of my
>>> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
>>
>> Ah, isn't sort of like asking if anyone remembers the TK50 or
>> RC25?
>
> Everyone that had to wait for a MicroVAX II to boot on
> a TK50 tape probably remember ...
>

After installing MicroVMS from that box of RX50's a TK50 would be
like trading in a VW for a Ferrari.

bill

In article <kksieaF4cdU2@mid.individual.net>,
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 17:38:31 +0100, Roy Omond wrote:
>
>> On 25/08/2023 14:14, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:39:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>>>> saying,
>>>> the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established by the
>>>> mid-1970s. (I'm going off historical documents and the recollections
>>>> of people here as in the mid 1970s I wasn't even in secondary school
>>>> yet. ).
>>>>
>>>> One thing of interest above is you say the OS itself was also written
>>>> in this language. Are you referring to the kernel-level code here or
>>>> something else ?
>>>
>>> And starting in 1966...
>>>
>>> http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/EMAS/EMAS_Papers/
>>> EMAS_The_Edinburgh_Multi_Access_System.pdf
>>>
>>> Or for my lecture on it (I was involved, as you will see):
>>>
>>> http://www.bobeager.uk/emas/
>>
>> Just adding another toot of the horn. I am an Edinburgh Computer
>> Science graduate, so my early background is EMAS and its implementation
>> language IMP, both of which I still miss today. A good number of my
>> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
>
>I am looking at resurrecting EMAS. There are IMP compilers around, still.
>Someone I know has written a viable IMP to C translator.
>
>And you may find the end of my lecture rather interesting.

That would be interesting. One wonders if an initial target may
be an ICL 2900 emulator? I understand that EMAS was ported to
370/XA; would it boot under Hercules?

Interesting, the EMAS virtual memory subsystem was ported to
Unix in the 80s by Charles Forsyth at the University of York.
He wrote a rather interesting paper on this that you may find
interesting: https://www.terzarima.net/doc/taste.pdf

- Dan C.

On Sat, 26 Aug 2023 13:44:55 +0000, Dan Cross wrote:

> In article <kksieaF4cdU2@mid.individual.net>,
> Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
>>On Fri, 25 Aug 2023 17:38:31 +0100, Roy Omond wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/08/2023 14:14, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:39:41 +0000, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>>>>> saying,
>>>>> the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established by the
>>>>> mid-1970s. (I'm going off historical documents and the recollections
>>>>> of people here as in the mid 1970s I wasn't even in secondary school
>>>>> yet. ).
>>>>>
>>>>> One thing of interest above is you say the OS itself was also
>>>>> written in this language. Are you referring to the kernel-level code
>>>>> here or something else ?
>>>>
>>>> And starting in 1966...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ancientgeek.org.uk/EMAS/EMAS_Papers/
>>>> EMAS_The_Edinburgh_Multi_Access_System.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Or for my lecture on it (I was involved, as you will see):
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bobeager.uk/emas/
>>>
>>> Just adding another toot of the horn. I am an Edinburgh Computer
>>> Science graduate, so my early background is EMAS and its
>>> implementation language IMP, both of which I still miss today. A good
>>> number of my class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
>>
>>I am looking at resurrecting EMAS. There are IMP compilers around,
>>still.
>>Someone I know has written a viable IMP to C translator.
>>
>>And you may find the end of my lecture rather interesting.
>
> That would be interesting. One wonders if an initial target may be an
> ICL 2900 emulator?

It would indeed. The emulator is in progress; I currently have a compiler
bug I need to fix. See the lecture for more details.

> I understand that EMAS was ported to 370/XA; would
> it boot under Hercules?

It would, but there are incomplete sources. I was the only person to
preserve sources, and they are for 29800 (the lecture explains why).
Incidentally, I did quite a bit of the XA porting. That was to a 4381.

> Interesting, the EMAS virtual memory subsystem was ported to Unix in the
> 80s by Charles Forsyth at the University of York. He wrote a rather
> interesting paper on this that you may find interesting:
> https://www.terzarima.net/doc/taste.pdf

Yes, I will certainly have a look at that!

On 2023-08-26 14:50, bill wrote:
> On 8/25/2023 8:17 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 8/25/2023 5:50 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
>>> On 8/25/2023 12:38 PM, Roy Omond wrote:
>>>>    A good number of my
>>>> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
>>>
>>> Ah, isn't sort of like asking if anyone remembers the TK50 or
>>> RC25?
>>
>> Everyone that had to wait for a MicroVAX II to boot on
>> a TK50 tape probably remember ...
>>
>
>
> After installing MicroVMS from that box of RX50's a TK50 would be
> like trading in a VW for a Ferrari.

Agree. I did install MicroVMS from RX50 once. Oh boy did I wish I had
had a TK50 instead.
(With that said, I really hate the TK50. Not the idea, but that specific
drive. The TK70 was a huge improvement!)

Johnny

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 8:51:02 AM UTC-4, bill wrote:
> After installing MicroVMS from that box of RX50's a TK50 would be
> like trading in a VW for a Ferrari.

Yup - expensive and requires a lot of service 8-}

I had MicroVAX II External Field Test serial #414 which came with
a TK50 (this was the original TK50 that just had the lighted button -
the blinking green activity LED* was still in the future). The very first
time we tried to use it, the tape got stuck in the drive.

I asked a DEC tech who happened to be on-site for some other
issue to look at it (I had it out of the BA123 on a table). He said,
and I quote, "DEC wouldn't make a piece of <bleep> like that".

* DEC kept adding LEDs to subsequent models, culminating in a
ridiculous 10 front panel LEDs in the DLT8000. And even that was
not enough - they issued a firmware update to dual-purpose the
"operate handle" LED when they fixed the issue of door lock
solenoids burning out. When Quantum took over ownership of
the product line (as opposed to just manufacturing) their first new
design was a big departure with just 3 LEDs - ready/activity, write
lock, and fault.

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 8:22:03 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> If we limit Unix to kernel of Unix origin then I don't see it as
> unrealistic that VMS outlast Unix.
>
> Tru64 is dead. HP-UX is practically dead. Solaris is close to dead.
> AIX is not well. And FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD seem to increasingly
> get status of hobby OS for enthusiasts.

Netflix (as one example of many) would disagree with that statement:
https://itsfoss.com/netflix-freebsd-cdn/

Op zaterdag 26 augustus 2023 om 16:51:23 UTC+2 schreef Johnny Billquist:
> On 2023-08-26 14:50, bill wrote:
> > On 8/25/2023 8:17 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> >> On 8/25/2023 5:50 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
> >>> On 8/25/2023 12:38 PM, Roy Omond wrote:
> >>>> A good number of my
> >>>> class colleagues ended up at DEC (remember Spiralog ?).
> >>>
> >>> Ah, isn't sort of like asking if anyone remembers the TK50 or
> >>> RC25?
> >>
> >> Everyone that had to wait for a MicroVAX II to boot on
> >> a TK50 tape probably remember ...
> >>
> >
> >
> > After installing MicroVMS from that box of RX50's a TK50 would be
> > like trading in a VW for a Ferrari.
> Agree. I did install MicroVMS from RX50 once. Oh boy did I wish I had
> had a TK50 instead.

IIRC vmsinstal used backup with verify to read the 40 floppy's. And then 10 more for a mandatory update.

Fun times.

Oswald

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
> On 2023-08-25, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2023-08-25 14:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> On 2023-08-24, Dennis Boone <drb@ihatespam.msu.edu> wrote:
>>>>> That's seriously interesting thanks. So, contrary to what some are
>>>>> saying, the idea of writing an OS in such a way was well established
>>>>> by the mid-1970s.
>>>>
>>>> The idea was fairly widespread quite a bit earlier, actually. Burroughs
>>>> did ESPOL (an Algol derivative systems language) in starting in 1966.
>>>
>>> Just done some reading about this and the follow-on language NEWP.
>>>
>>> It has now become _very_ clear to me that the use of ALGOL-based languages
>>> in OS development was very seriously widespread by the time DEC came to
>>> design VMS. Pity DEC didn't join them.
>>
>> Including Multics. Not an outstanding success exactly...
>> Most companies that went that way early was way less successful than
>> DEC, so it is kindof strange to claim that DEC did it wrong and they did
>> it right...
>>
>
> In way too many cases, marketing success (at least in the short term,
> and sometimes in the longer term) doesn't appear to be related to
> technical elegance.
>
> After all, we all use Windows...

No, we don't. No Windows machines around _here_ ;-)

> OTOH, Unix with its portable HLL approach, has outlasted VMS...

And was inspired by Multics.

Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

On 2023-08-26 20:25, terry-...@glaver.org wrote:
> On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 8:51:02 AM UTC-4, bill wrote:
>> After installing MicroVMS from that box of RX50's a TK50 would be
>> like trading in a VW for a Ferrari.
>
> Yup - expensive and requires a lot of service 8-}
>
> I had MicroVAX II External Field Test serial #414 which came with
> a TK50 (this was the original TK50 that just had the lighted button -
> the blinking green activity LED* was still in the future). The very first
> time we tried to use it, the tape got stuck in the drive.

The story of the TK50... The tape always get stuck with a fast flashing
red button, and no way to get it out of that state except to power cycle
the thing, and then remove the tape by hand and rewind it into the
cartridge by hand. The firmware was horrible, and the UI was not at all
thought through properly.

And then you can to open the thing up and clean the heads regularly too.

But actually, with the TK70, the UI and firmware side was mostly sorted,
and it actually can be used in a sane way. You still have the constant
cleaning to deal with, though.

> I asked a DEC tech who happened to be on-site for some other
> issue to look at it (I had it out of the BA123 on a table). He said,
> and I quote, "DEC wouldn't make a piece of <bleep> like that".

:-)

> * DEC kept adding LEDs to subsequent models, culminating in a
> ridiculous 10 front panel LEDs in the DLT8000. And even that was
> not enough - they issued a firmware update to dual-purpose the
> "operate handle" LED when they fixed the issue of door lock
> solenoids burning out. When Quantum took over ownership of
> the product line (as opposed to just manufacturing) their first new
> design was a big departure with just 3 LEDs - ready/activity, write
> lock, and fault.

The dual purpose of the handle and LEDs on the TK50 is infuriating and
not working. I remember that the TK85 (or whatever I looked at) had more
LEDs, but didn't work any better than a TK70 in my experience. But as I
said, personally, I find the TK70 to be as good as I could expect
already. I could get it to clear the error, rewind and let me take the
tape out when it detected some kind of error. Something the TK50 didn't
let me do. Wasn't much beyond that that I wanted/needed. It usually
works well enough.

Johnny

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 10:27:33 AM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> But actually, with the TK70, the UI and firmware side was mostly sorted,
> and it actually can be used in a sane way. You still have the constant
> cleaning to deal with, though.

And then they came out with the TZ30. Rumors that the TZ30 was the result of a drunken bar bet between a DECie and a Mitsubishi upper manager are unconfirmed. 8-}

> The dual purpose of the handle and LEDs on the TK50 is infuriating and
> not working. I remember that the TK85 (or whatever I looked at) had more
> LEDs, but didn't work any better than a TK70 in my experience. But as I
> said, personally, I find the TK70 to be as good as I could expect
> already. I could get it to clear the error, rewind and let me take the
> tape out when it detected some kind of error. Something the TK50 didn't
> let me do. Wasn't much beyond that that I wanted/needed. It usually
> works well enough.

LTO had the benefit of hindsight, mostly a whole lot of "We don't want to make THOSE mistakes again!" My experience with LTO has been positive, except when they're broken - then they're a pain to repair.