https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/

Dialer and messaging app recording phone numbers, message
content. Are these the same as the default phone and
"Messages" icons? Is there such a thing as a 3rd-party
dialer? I didn't realize that was an "app".

Am 23.03.22 um 13:41 schrieb Mayayana:
> https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/
>
> Dialer and messaging app recording phone numbers, message
> content. Are these the same as the default phone and
> "Messages" icons? Is there such a thing as a 3rd-party
> dialer? I didn't realize that was an "app".

The text is clear:

Google's Messages and Dialer apps for Android devices have been
collecting and sending data to Google without specific notice and
consent, and without offering the opportunity to opt-out, potentially in
violation of Europe's data protection law.

These are the preinstalled apps by Android. If that article proves to be
correct, Google will be in very deep shit.

Did you really expect anything else from this evil company?

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> The text is clear:
>
> Google's Messages and Dialer apps for Android devices have been
> collecting and sending data to Google without specific notice and
> consent

It's fairly obvious that some features, such as identifying names of businesses
that call you (or that you call) but which are not in your contacts list, have
needed to send data to google, in order for those business names to get
looked-up from phone numbers.

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/
>
> Dialer and messaging app recording phone numbers, message
> content. Are these the same as the default phone and
> "Messages" icons? Is there such a thing as a 3rd-party
> dialer? I didn't realize that was an "app".

On non-Google phones - i.e. Samsung, Motorola, etc., etc. - the
'messages' (SMS) and 'dialer' apps are most likely *not* the Google
apps, but brand-specific apps, at least that was the case on my Huawei
phones and is the case on our Samsung phones.

There are indeed 3rd-party 'messages' apps and for non-Google phones
'Google Messages' is such an app. I.e. if I want to, I can install the
Google Messages app on my Samsung phone.

Yes, the 'dialer' is an app. Om my Samsung phone it's called 'Phone'
(listed by Settings -> Apps -> look for an icon of a phone receiver (in
my case a white receiver on a green background)).

There probably are also 3rd-party 'dialer' apps, but I don't know for
sure.

FWIW, Google phones are not popular here (NL). Only one major webshop
has them (and probably Amazon and similar 'foreign' webshops).

"Frank Slootweg" <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

| On non-Google phones - i.e. Samsung, Motorola, etc., etc. - the
| 'messages' (SMS) and 'dialer' apps are most likely *not* the Google
| apps, but brand-specific apps, at least that was the case on my Huawei
| phones and is the case on our Samsung phones.
|

The article included a PDF with further info. They suggest
an app called APK Explorer for people to figure out exactly
what's behid their phone dialing app. I didn't bother, so I don't
know. I just used APKPure to install Simple Dialer and Simple SMS
Messenger, which was recommended in the PDF. Lots more
info in that download for anyone who's interested.

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> On non-Google phones - i.e. Samsung, Motorola, etc., etc. - the
> 'messages' (SMS) and 'dialer' apps are most likely *not* the Google
> apps, but brand-specific apps, at least that was the case on my Huawei
> phones and is the case on our Samsung phones.

On _any_ Android phone, you can add your own contacts, dialer & messages.
<https://i.postimg.cc/DfqZkHSN/telecom01.jpg>

> There are indeed 3rd-party 'messages' apps and for non-Google phones
> 'Google Messages' is such an app. I.e. if I want to, I can install the
> Google Messages app on my Samsung phone.

I'm not surprised Mayayana is utterly clueless even as we've covered the
privacy-aware contacts, dialers, and messaging apps _many_ times here.

Any person who owns more than a single synapse knows that fact.
> Yes, the 'dialer' is an app. Om my Samsung phone it's called 'Phone'
> (listed by Settings -> Apps -> look for an icon of a phone receiver (in
> my case a white receiver on a green background)).

We tested _all_ the dialers long ago, where lately most contacts apps and
many messaging apps already come with their own dialers.

So, in essence, pure dialers are an anachronism in a modern Android phone.

> There probably are also 3rd-party 'dialer' apps, but I don't know for
> sure.

We covered this _many_ times, as we tested all known privacy aware dialers.

> FWIW, Google phones are not popular here (NL). Only one major webshop
> has them (and probably Amazon and similar 'foreign' webshops).

FWIW, even a "google phone" can install privacy-aware non-Google apps.

Most FOSS Google Play Store clients even have a checkbox to filter them out.
<https://i.postimg.cc/W3h4ZZTr/aurora02.jpg>
--
Every Usenet post should strive to add value that wasn't in the original.

Mayayana wrote:

> The article included a PDF with further info. They suggest
> an app called APK Explorer for people to figure out exactly
> what's behid their phone dialing app. I didn't bother, so I don't
> know. I just used APKPure to install Simple Dialer and Simple SMS
> Messenger, which was recommended in the PDF. Lots more
> info in that download for anyone who's interested.

Jesus Christ.

*Mayayana <===> moron*

Even Frank (who is _less_ of a moron than is Mayayana) knows this.

There's _zero_ chance that Mayayana === moron is going to teach us anything.

We've covered _all_ the apk manager/explorer apps many times already.
Nothing Mayayana === moron is going to tell us will ever add to that value.

FWIW, despite my frustration that Mayayana === moron says the dumbest
freaking things about Android phones, I will repeat for the benefit of teh
few that have been hiding under a rock like Mayayana === moron has been,
that the _best_ (by far) apk explorer (IMHO) is this one, by the way.

*A full-featured package manager and viewer for Android *
<https://github.com/MuntashirAkon/AppManager>

That free app does _everything_ (IMHO) you could ever want it to do.
--
It's shocking that people as stupid as Mayayana is, actually do exist.
(It's not that they're ignorant once, but _always_ they can't learn!)

On 23/03/2022 17:11, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
>> On non-Google phones - i.e. Samsung, Motorola, etc., etc. - the
>> 'messages' (SMS) and 'dialer' apps are most likely *not* the Google
>> apps, but brand-specific apps, at least that was the case on my Huawei
>> phones and is the case on our Samsung phones.
>
> On _any_ Android phone, you can add your own contacts, dialer & messages.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/DfqZkHSN/telecom01.jpg>
>
>> There are indeed 3rd-party 'messages' apps and for non-Google phones
>> 'Google Messages' is such an app. I.e. if I want to, I can install the
>> Google Messages app on my Samsung phone.
>
> I'm not surprised Mayayana is utterly clueless even as we've covered the
> privacy-aware contacts, dialers, and messaging apps _many_ times here.
>
> Any person who owns more than a single synapse knows that fact.
>
>> Yes, the 'dialer' is an app. Om my Samsung phone it's called 'Phone'
>> (listed by Settings -> Apps -> look for an icon of a phone receiver (in
>> my case a white receiver on a green background)).
>
> We tested _all_ the dialers long ago, where lately most contacts apps and
> many messaging apps already come with their own dialers.
>
> So, in essence, pure dialers are an anachronism in a modern Android phone.
>
>> There probably are also 3rd-party 'dialer' apps, but I don't know for
>> sure.
>
> We covered this _many_ times, as we tested all known privacy aware dialers.
>
>> FWIW, Google phones are not popular here (NL). Only one major webshop
>> has them (and probably Amazon and similar 'foreign' webshops).
>
> FWIW, even a "google phone" can install privacy-aware non-Google apps.
>
> Most FOSS Google Play Store clients even have a checkbox to filter them out.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/W3h4ZZTr/aurora02.jpg>

Although a non-Google app might not send information to Google directly,
it doesn't operate in a vacuum. It works with, and through, the Android
OS which is provided by Google. We do not know what that OS is doing
when it interacts with a 3rd-party dialer.

And let's not forget that the phone manufacturer may have its own
(modified) version of the OS, and we don't know how that interacts with
the app,whether Google or non-Google, or what the cellphone network
provider does with the dialer and other information that passes through
its system.

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Although a non-Google app might not send information to Google directly,
> it doesn't operate in a vacuum. It works with, and through, the Android
> OS which is provided by Google. We do not know what that OS is doing
> when it interacts with a 3rd-party dialer.

That's fine as a general statement but an _educated_ person wouldn't just
allude to the operating system doing all that spying without _any_ facts.

> And let's not forget that the phone manufacturer may have its own
> (modified) version of the OS, and we don't know how that interacts with
> the app,whether Google or non-Google, or what the cellphone network
> provider does with the dialer and other information that passes through
> its system.

Again, that's a fine general statement which applies to _all_ operating
systems, including those from Google, Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, etc.

If I claimed my neighbors were spying on me on the same basis that you just
did, I'd be just as correct as you were in making your general statements.
--
A key difference between an educated and uneducated person is that the
educated person makes assessments based on the actual facts of the matter.

Am 23.03.22 um 17:22 schrieb Andy Burns:
> Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> The text is clear:
>>
>> Google's Messages and Dialer apps for Android devices have been
>> collecting and sending data to Google without specific notice and
>> consent
>
> It's fairly obvious that some features, such as identifying names of businesses
> that call you (or that you call) but which are not in your contacts list, have
> needed to send data to google, in order for those business names to get
> looked-up from phone numbers.

Totally unnecessary for an Android to fuction. That has to be an opt-in
functionality.It is none of Google's business who calls me or whom I call.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> Totally unnecessary for an Android to fuction. That has to be an opt-in
> functionality.It is none of Google's business who calls me or whom I call.

That's all well and good but it's _also_ totally unnecessary for Apple to be
permanently logging every single attempt to place a FaceTime call or to send
an iMessage, is it not?

At least with Android you can change your default messaging app.
--
A key difference between an educated and uneducated person is that the
educated person makes assessments based on the actual facts of the matter.

On 23/03/2022 21:02, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> Although a non-Google app might not send information to Google directly,
>> it doesn't operate in a vacuum. It works with, and through, the Android
>> OS which is provided by Google. We do not know what that OS is doing
>> when it interacts with a 3rd-party dialer.
>
> That's fine as a general statement but an _educated_ person wouldn't just
> allude to the operating system doing all that spying without _any_ facts.
>
>> And let's not forget that the phone manufacturer may have its own
>> (modified) version of the OS, and we don't know how that interacts with
>> the app,whether Google or non-Google, or what the cellphone network
>> provider does with the dialer and other information that passes through
>> its system.
>
> Again, that's a fine general statement which applies to _all_ operating
> systems, including those from Google, Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, etc.
>
> If I claimed my neighbors were spying on me on the same basis that you just
> did, I'd be just as correct as you were in making your general statements.

Well, if your neighbour stood in the window with a telescope you'd know,
but not if he used a "spy" camera disguised as something else. Then how
would you know? That's the problem with millions of lines of code even
in open-source programs. They could be hidden in plain sight.

You may remember my "fused.location" app post a couple of months ago.
You have far more knowledge of Android than I do, but you hadn't heard
of this system app, and what it did. If Google had named it something
else, we wouldn't be aware of it or what it did, because it was simply
the strange term "fused" together with "location" (which I thought I had
disabled), which intrigued me.

It's the sort of things that Google does which reminds me of Donald
Rumsfeld's comments about "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns". It's
past activity suggests that it /will/ be spying on you, but we'd be
lucky to find out exactly what it did and how it did it.

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Well, if your neighbour stood in the window with a telescope you'd know,
> but not if he used a "spy" camera disguised as something else. Then how
> would you know? That's the problem with millions of lines of code even
> in open-source programs. They could be hidden in plain sight.

Yup. I wasn't saying it's not possible, nor even that it wasn't happening.
I was just saying that I can't make real assessments without actual facts.

> You may remember my "fused.location" app post a couple of months ago.

I don't even _look_ at who posts most things, so I had forgotten that was
you, but I _did_ learn a lot from that discussion, which I appreciate.
> You have far more knowledge of Android than I do, but you hadn't heard
> of this system app, and what it did. If Google had named it something
> else, we wouldn't be aware of it or what it did, because it was simply
> the strange term "fused" together with "location" (which I thought I had
> disabled), which intrigued me.

Yes. We nailed down as many facts as we could in order to assess the thing.
That's all I'm saying. Educated people make assessments based on the facts.

> It's the sort of things that Google does which reminds me of Donald
> Rumsfeld's comments about "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns". It's
> past activity suggests that it /will/ be spying on you, but we'd be
> lucky to find out exactly what it did and how it did it.

Well, I _read_ the report Mayayana referred to, and they had a _lot_ of
details in that report, and they said Google wrote back and did _not_
dispute what the report said, so I _believed_ the report said the truth.

My advice if someone is worried that their _Google_ messages app is spying
on them to simply change the _default_ messaging app to a non-Google APK.

Now then, after I made that suggestion, if you or Joerg or Mayayana or Frank
or Carlos or nospam or Steve, et. al, have facts that show that the
non-google messaging apps are _also_ spying on us, then that's of interest.

But just to claim that _all_ apps spy on us is too general to be useful.
--
A key difference between an educated and uneducated person is that the
educated person makes assessments based on the actual facts of the matter.

Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> schrieb Andy Burns:
>
>> It's fairly obvious that some features, such as identifying names of businesses
>> that call you (or that you call) but which are not in your contacts list, have
>> needed to send data to google, in order for those business names to get
>> looked-up from phone numbers.
>
> Totally unnecessary for an Android to fuction.

I vaguely remember being offered the use of the feature initially, but I have to
say, I can't see anywhere in the dialler app to opt-out of it now.

"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> writes:

> https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/google_messages_gdpr/
>
> Dialer and messaging app recording phone numbers, message
> content. Are these the same as the default phone and
> "Messages" icons? Is there such a thing as a 3rd-party
> dialer? I didn't realize that was an "app".

If you press and hold the app icon, then select (i) then select Advanced
- App details, it will show you the app in the store and who provides
it.