An interview with Dave Cutler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs

p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West" (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
http://neilrieck.net
http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> An interview with Dave Cutler:
[...snip...]
>
Since this post earlier today, there have been at least two more

Thinkers vs Doers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1VcqmSceMw

Software with zero bugs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrrb5aQQcFk

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
http://neilrieck.net
http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html

On 2023-10-18 20:37, Neil Rieck wrote:
> An interview with Dave Cutler:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs

Fun. And a PDP-11/70 frontpanel replica running RSX behind him as well. :-)

If anyone is interested - that front panel can be had from here:
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11
(in case people don't already know about it).

Johnny

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> An interview with Dave Cutler:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
>
> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West" (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
>
> Neil Rieck
> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> http://neilrieck.net
> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html

HE SOLD STOLEN CODE TO A CROOK ... IS THAT ADMIRABLE?

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> An interview with Dave Cutler:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
>
> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West" (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
>
> Neil Rieck
> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> http://neilrieck.net
> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html

he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?

On 10/18/2023 9:53 PM, Rob Ses wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck
> wrote:
>> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but
>> I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West"
>> (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's
>> departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
>
> he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?

Really?

Who else has an OS in Macro-32 and Bliss??

Arne

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 5:51:06 PM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-10-18 20:37, Neil Rieck wrote:
> > An interview with Dave Cutler:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
> Fun. And a PDP-11/70 frontpanel replica running RSX behind him as well. :-)
>
> If anyone is interested - that front panel can be had from here:
> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11
> (in case people don't already know about it).
>
> Johnny

Reminiscent of the Cylon face plate on Battle Star Galactica

Neil

On 2023-10-19 12:29, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 5:51:06 PM UTC-4, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2023-10-18 20:37, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>> An interview with Dave Cutler:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
>> Fun. And a PDP-11/70 frontpanel replica running RSX behind him as well. :-)
>>
>> If anyone is interested - that front panel can be had from here:
>> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11
>> (in case people don't already know about it).
>>
>> Johnny
>
> Reminiscent of the Cylon face plate on Battle Star Galactica

Every OS has its own pattern running on the front panel. I'm trying to
remember... Maybe it was RT-11 that had the pattern that actually looks
like Cylons... Anyone remember for sure? (Yes, this is getting OT.)

Johnny

On 2023-10-18, Rob Ses <sesrob7@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45?PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
>> An interview with Dave Cutler:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
>>
>> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West" (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
>>
>> Neil Rieck
>> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
>> http://neilrieck.net
>> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
>
> he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?

You really need to be more careful about the things you say.

You have just accused him of stealing and then selling the source code
for a commercial product, VMS, to Microsoft.

That is very, very, factually incorrect and is libel.

Cutler instead took his _ideas_ from MICA (which at that point was a
cancelled product BTW) to Microsoft and implemented those _ideas_ in
WNT. MICA was an OS in its own right (with lots of very nice ideas)
and had nothing to do with VMS.

BTW, it's a pity he didn't take his ideas for a certain other something
else from that DEC project to Microsoft and implement them once there.
We would have all been better off because we would have had a more
safer alternative to C for low-level work.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:21:17 AM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-10-18, Rob Ses <ses...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45?PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> >> An interview with Dave Cutler:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
> >>
> >> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West" (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
> >>
> >> Neil Rieck
> >> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> >> http://neilrieck.net
> >> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
> >
> > he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
> You really need to be more careful about the things you say.
>
> You have just accused him of stealing and then selling the source code
> for a commercial product, VMS, to Microsoft.
>
> That is very, very, factually incorrect and is libel.
>
> Cutler instead took his _ideas_ from MICA (which at that point was a
> cancelled product BTW) to Microsoft and implemented those _ideas_ in
> WNT. MICA was an OS in its own right (with lots of very nice ideas)
> and had nothing to do with VMS.
>
> BTW, it's a pity he didn't take his ideas for a certain other something
> else from that DEC project to Microsoft and implement them once there.
> We would have all been better off because we would have had a more
> safer alternative to C for low-level work.
>
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Microshit settled with DEC in 1995 ... everyone knows the story ...

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:21:17 AM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-10-18, Rob Ses <ses...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45?PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> >> An interview with Dave Cutler:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
> >>
> >> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West" (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
> >>
> >> Neil Rieck
> >> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> >> http://neilrieck.net
> >> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
> >
> > he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
> You really need to be more careful about the things you say.
>
> You have just accused him of stealing and then selling the source code
> for a commercial product, VMS, to Microsoft.
>
> That is very, very, factually incorrect and is libel.
>
> Cutler instead took his _ideas_ from MICA (which at that point was a
> cancelled product BTW) to Microsoft and implemented those _ideas_ in
> WNT. MICA was an OS in its own right (with lots of very nice ideas)
> and had nothing to do with VMS.
>
> BTW, it's a pity he didn't take his ideas for a certain other something
> else from that DEC project to Microsoft and implement them once there.
> We would have all been better off because we would have had a more
> safer alternative to C for low-level work.
>
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

DEC “FORCED MICROSOFT INTO ALLIANCE WITH LEGAL THREAT”

https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat

"Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m. The alliance gave Microsoft a way to pay DEC off without appearing to. The settlement came to about $105m including the $75m Microsoft kicked in to bolster DEC’s NT service and support operation. "

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:21:17 AM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-10-18, Rob Ses <ses...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45?PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> >> An interview with Dave Cutler:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxmZPMg7vIs
> >>
> >> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West" (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
> >>
> >> Neil Rieck
> >> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> >> http://neilrieck.net
> >> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html
> >
> > he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
> You really need to be more careful about the things you say.
>
> You have just accused him of stealing and then selling the source code
> for a commercial product, VMS, to Microsoft.
>
> That is very, very, factually incorrect and is libel.
>
> Cutler instead took his _ideas_ from MICA (which at that point was a
> cancelled product BTW) to Microsoft and implemented those _ideas_ in
> WNT. MICA was an OS in its own right (with lots of very nice ideas)
> and had nothing to do with VMS.
>
> BTW, it's a pity he didn't take his ideas for a certain other something
> else from that DEC project to Microsoft and implement them once there.
> We would have all been better off because we would have had a more
> safer alternative to C for low-level work.
>
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat

"At the time there were those who alleged there was more to the deal than met the eye, and that Microsoft had been forced into the relationship to avoid getting sued by DEC for poaching its intellectual property. After all, Dave Cutler, chief architect of Windows NT, was also responsible for the VAX/VMS operating system while he was at DEC, and the similarities between the two environments have often been noted. Well, according to an informed source who spoke to our sister publication ClieNT Server News last week, when Cutler left DEC for Microsoft in October 1988, he not only took engineers with him, but also took the Mica operating system code he had been working on for DEC’s brutally aborted Prism RISC project, which was abandoned when DEC decided to use the MIPS RISC chip instead (CI No 970). DEC, of course, eventually did end up with a home- grown RISC, dumping MIPS for its Alpha chip only a few years later. Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m."

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 10:25:05 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 9:53 PM, Rob Ses wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck
> > wrote:
> >> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but
> >> I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West"
> >> (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's
> >> departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
> >
> > he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
>
> Really?
>
> Who else has an OS in Macro-32 and Bliss??
>
> Arne

https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat

"At the time there were those who alleged there was more to the deal than met the eye, and that Microsoft had been forced into the relationship to avoid getting sued by DEC for poaching its intellectual property. After all, Dave Cutler, chief architect of Windows NT, was also responsible for the VAX/VMS operating system while he was at DEC, and the similarities between the two environments have often been noted. Well, according to an informed source who spoke to our sister publication ClieNT Server News last week, when Cutler left DEC for Microsoft in October 1988, he not only took engineers with him, but also took the Mica operating system code he had been working on for DEC’s brutally aborted Prism RISC project, which was abandoned when DEC decided to use the MIPS RISC chip instead (CI No 970). DEC, of course, eventually did end up with a home- grown RISC, dumping MIPS for its Alpha chip only a few years later. Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m."

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 1:56:14 PM UTC-4, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 10:25:05 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > On 10/18/2023 9:53 PM, Rob Ses wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck
> > > wrote:
> > >> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but
> > >> I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West"
> > >> (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's
> > >> departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
> > >
> > > he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > Who else has an OS in Macro-32 and Bliss??
> >
> > Arne
> https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat
>
> "At the time there were those who alleged there was more to the deal than met the eye, and that Microsoft had been forced into the relationship to avoid getting sued by DEC for poaching its intellectual property. After all, Dave Cutler, chief architect of Windows NT, was also responsible for the VAX/VMS operating system while he was at DEC, and the similarities between the two environments have often been noted. Well, according to an informed source who spoke to our sister publication ClieNT Server News last week, when Cutler left DEC for Microsoft in October 1988, he not only took engineers with him, but also took the Mica operating system code he had been working on for DEC’s brutally aborted Prism RISC project, which was abandoned when DEC decided to use the MIPS RISC chip instead (CI No 970). DEC, of course, eventually did end up with a home- grown RISC, dumping MIPS for its Alpha chip only a few years later. Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m."

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 10:25:05 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 9:53 PM, Rob Ses wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck
> > wrote:
> >> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but
> >> I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West"
> >> (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's
> >> departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
> >
> > he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
>
> Really?
>
> Who else has an OS in Macro-32 and Bliss??
>
> Arne

DEC “FORCED MICROSOFT INTO ALLIANCE WITH LEGAL THREAT”

https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat

"At the time there were those who alleged there was more to the deal than met the eye, and that Microsoft had been forced into the relationship to avoid getting sued by DEC for poaching its intellectual property. After all, Dave Cutler, chief architect of Windows NT, was also responsible for the VAX/VMS operating system while he was at DEC, and the similarities between the two environments have often been noted. Well, according to an informed source who spoke to our sister publication ClieNT Server News last week, when Cutler left DEC for Microsoft in October 1988, he not only took engineers with him, but also took the Mica operating system code he had been working on for DEC’s brutally aborted Prism RISC project, which was abandoned when DEC decided to use the MIPS RISC chip instead (CI No 970). DEC, of course, eventually did end up with a home- grown RISC, dumping MIPS for its Alpha chip only a few years later. Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m."

On 2023-10-19, Rob Ses <sesrob7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Microshit settled with DEC in 1995 ... everyone knows the story ...

Everyone except you apparently. VMS was not the target of those
legal matters. Once again, there was nothing of interest in VMS
as far as Microsoft was concerned.

The design ideas in MICA were a different matter however, and as
I already mentioned, MICA was an OS in its own right and had nothing
to do with VMS. It was an OS that would allow you to run some VMS
user code on it, but it was NOT VMS.

Some reading for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_MICA

It really is a shame this didn't become a reality.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-10-19, ultr...@gmail.com <ultradwc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> DEC ?FORCED MICROSOFT INTO ALLIANCE WITH LEGAL THREAT?
>
> https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat
>
> "Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m. The alliance gave Microsoft a way to pay DEC off without appearing to. The settlement came to about $105m including the $75m Microsoft kicked in to bolster DEC?s NT service and support operation. "

As you have just been told, MICA is absolutely nothing to do with VMS
and it was an OS in its own right, with a very different (and very nice)
internal design.

Its sole interaction with the VMS world is that you could run some
well-behaved VMS user mode programs on it because it was planned to
support some of the VMS APIs and was seen as a way of moving the VMS
userbase to a more modern and more flexible operating system.

The internals of MICA had nothing to do with the internals of VMS
however, and MICA was a much cleaner and much more elegant design.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:58:46 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck wrote:
> > An interview with Dave Cutler:
> [...snip...]
> >
> Since this post earlier today, there have been at least two more
>
> Thinkers vs Doers
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1VcqmSceMw
>
> Software with zero bugs
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrrb5aQQcFk
> Neil Rieck
> Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
> http://neilrieck.net
> http://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html

Here's some more new stuff from Dave's Garage:
" Could Have Been a COBOL Programmer! Dave Cutler Interview"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGSyCRN9R6A

And this: Oral History of Dave Cutler Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29RkHH-psrY

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
https://neilrieck.net
https://neilrieck.net/OpenVMS.html

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:13:37 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-10-19, ultr...@gmail.com <ultr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > DEC ?FORCED MICROSOFT INTO ALLIANCE WITH LEGAL THREAT?
> >
> > https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat
> >
> > "Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m. The alliance gave Microsoft a way to pay DEC off without appearing to. The settlement came to about $105m including the $75m Microsoft kicked in to bolster DEC?s NT service and support operation. "
>
> As you have just been told, MICA is absolutely nothing to do with VMS
> and it was an OS in its own right, with a very different (and very nice)
> internal design.
>
> Its sole interaction with the VMS world is that you could run some
> well-behaved VMS user mode programs on it because it was planned to
> support some of the VMS APIs and was seen as a way of moving the VMS
> userbase to a more modern and more flexible operating system.
>
> The internals of MICA had nothing to do with the internals of VMS
> however, and MICA was a much cleaner and much more elegant design.
> Simon.
>
> --
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
> Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

AND AS YOU HAVE JUST BEEN TOLD IT WAS STOLEN CODE ...

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:13:37 PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-10-19, ultr...@gmail.com <ultr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > DEC ?FORCED MICROSOFT INTO ALLIANCE WITH LEGAL THREAT?
> >
> > https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat
> >
> > "Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m. The alliance gave Microsoft a way to pay DEC off without appearing to. The settlement came to about $105m including the $75m Microsoft kicked in to bolster DEC?s NT service and support operation. "
>
> The internals of MICA had nothing to do with the internals of VMS
> however, and MICA was a much cleaner and much more elegant design.
> Simon.

you forgot "minus the security" ...

Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>On 2023-10-18, Rob Ses <sesrob7@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
>
>You really need to be more careful about the things you say.
>
>You have just accused him of stealing and then selling the source code
>for a commercial product, VMS, to Microsoft.

If only he had... the world might have been a lot better off... it took
Microsoft many years to get up to the level of operating system features
that DEC had more than twenty years earlier...

>BTW, it's a pity he didn't take his ideas for a certain other something
>else from that DEC project to Microsoft and implement them once there.
>We would have all been better off because we would have had a more
>safer alternative to C for low-level work.

You mean like real per-process memory protection and reliable pre-emptive
processes? Microsoft did eventually figure that stuff out with win7....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 1:55:14 AM UTC+3, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
> >On 2023-10-18, Rob Ses <ses...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
> >
> >You really need to be more careful about the things you say.
> >
> >You have just accused him of stealing and then selling the source code
> >for a commercial product, VMS, to Microsoft.
> If only he had... the world might have been a lot better off... it took
> Microsoft many years to get up to the level of operating system features
> that DEC had more than twenty years earlier...
> >BTW, it's a pity he didn't take his ideas for a certain other something
> >else from that DEC project to Microsoft and implement them once there.
> >We would have all been better off because we would have had a more
> >safer alternative to C for low-level work.
> You mean like real per-process memory protection and reliable pre-emptive
> processes? Microsoft did eventually figure that stuff out with win7....
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Can you elaborate?
I am not aware of anything related to per-process memory protection or to
preemptive processes that is principally different between Windows 7 and
15 years earlier Windows NT 3.1.

On 2023-10-19, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>
>>BTW, it's a pity he didn't take his ideas for a certain other something
>>else from that DEC project to Microsoft and implement them once there.
>>We would have all been better off because we would have had a more
>>safer alternative to C for low-level work.
>
> You mean like real per-process memory protection and reliable pre-emptive
> processes? Microsoft did eventually figure that stuff out with win7....
> --scott

No, Pillar. We have plenty of language choices for higher-level
programming, but we have what is a monoculture of one language when
it comes to low-level programming.

If Pillar had been adopted by DEC for use in production systems, DEC's
position in the marketplace at the time would have given the industry
a viable option to C.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-10-19, ultr...@gmail.com <ultradwc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:13:37?PM UTC-4, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-10-19, ultr...@gmail.com <ultr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > DEC ?FORCED MICROSOFT INTO ALLIANCE WITH LEGAL THREAT?
>> >
>> > https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat
>> >
>> > "Last year, somone from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology apparently found whole chunks of Mica comment for comment, note for note still there in Windows NT. And G Pascal Zachary, in Show-Stopper, his 1994 book on NT, says that Cutler saw Mica as the rough equivalent of NT. The source described Microsoft as having been dragged kicking and screaming into the alliance, despite the fact that DEC was allegedly prepared to lodge a suit claiming damages of upwards of $500m to $600m. The alliance gave Microsoft a way to pay DEC off without appearing to. The settlement came to about $105m including the $75m Microsoft kicked in to bolster DEC?s NT service and support operation. "
>>
>> As you have just been told, MICA is absolutely nothing to do with VMS
>> and it was an OS in its own right, with a very different (and very nice)
>> internal design.
>>
>> Its sole interaction with the VMS world is that you could run some
>> well-behaved VMS user mode programs on it because it was planned to
>> support some of the VMS APIs and was seen as a way of moving the VMS
>> userbase to a more modern and more flexible operating system.
>>
>> The internals of MICA had nothing to do with the internals of VMS
>> however, and MICA was a much cleaner and much more elegant design.
>
> AND AS YOU HAVE JUST BEEN TOLD IT WAS STOLEN CODE ...

That's a serious allegation to make Bob.

Even if the above article is true (and that's a massive if because
I have never seen this reported elsewhere) how do you know it was
stolen ?

For example, I thought part of the DEC culture at the time was that
you could take some cancelled projects with you, but if you made
anything of them, you were expected to pay DEC royalties.

I'd like to see some reliable reference for the above claim, because
I don't believe the above claim as it is presented above.

I find it absolutely impossible to believe that someone of Cutler's
stature would outright steal code from a former employer and that
the new employer would then allow that stolen code to be used in the
new employer's operating system. That's just not believable on multiple
levels.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 10/19/2023 1:59 PM, ultr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 10:25:05 PM UTC-4, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 10/18/2023 9:53 PM, Rob Ses wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 2:37:45 PM UTC-4, Neil Rieck
>>> wrote:
>>>> p.s. I know that some people here think of Cutler as the enemy but
>>>> I am not one of those. DEC lost Cutler after DEC closed "DEC West"
>>>> (Seattle) in early 1988. Nathan Myhrvold heard about Cutler's
>>>> departure and made the introduction to Bill Gates.
>>>
>>> he sold stolen vms code to a crook ... that's admirable?
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> Who else has an OS in Macro-32 and Bliss??
>>
>> Arne
>
> DEC “FORCED MICROSOFT INTO ALLIANCE WITH LEGAL THREAT”
>
> https://techmonitor.ai/technology/dec_forced_microsoft_into_alliance_with_legal_threat

It is still not clear to me what code you claim was stolen.

VMS is primarily written in Macro-32 and Bliss

VAXELN was written in Pascal

Mica should have been written in Pillar but Mica never materialized and
the code was not written

NT kernel is written in C.

Arne