In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
that fills up to save folder options.

When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.

The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
"BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.

Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
"desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?

--
Zag

West of House
There is a small mailbox here.

>read leaflet
"WELCOME TO USENET!

USENET is a game of adventure, danger,
and low cunning. In it you will
explore some of the most amazing
territory ever seen by mortals. No
computer should be without it!"

On 10/12/23 01:19 PM, this is what Zaghadka wrote:
> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
> that fills up to save folder options.
>
> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>
> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>
> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>
Do you know where the 'bags' setting is? probably the registry? Might be nice if we could change it then, of course at
the cost of using drive space.

I don't know how Linux does it but it too remembers all the folders. Not only just the initial view, but folders can be
shown as detail list or icons, just like windows, but it also can remember each folders zoom factor for that type of
view for each folder. That's kind of a complex storage system. This may be exactly the way Windows does it, I've never
done that much testing to verify, I just know the basic view is remembered.
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
> that fills up to save folder options.
>
> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>
> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>
> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?

Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
users who keeped needing that bumped up.

Remember that there are limits for desktop.ini .

The idea is, small files can be stored in a $MFT slot entry,
which is 1KB or so, as far as I know. The design intent
could be, that all the desktop.ini actually live inside
the $MFT. If you added too much material to the desktop.ini,
then it starts taking 4K clusters, and those clusters end up all
over the disk.

File 99429
\Users\myname\Pictures\desktop.ini
$STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident) <=== resident means inside the $MFT
$FILE_NAME (resident)
$DATA (resident)

I think your idea has merit -- it's a question of how
much info must be stored with each BAG entry. A big directory
can take up a fair amount of space - in this case 96 clusters
of 8 sectors each. It's the small directories which are resident,
that bloating them would not help matters.

File 587216
\Users\myname\Downloads
$STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident)
$FILE_NAME (resident)
$FILE_NAME (resident)
$OBJECT_ID (resident)
$INDEX_ROOT $I30 (resident)
$INDEX_ALLOCATION $I30 (nonresident)
logical sectors 2835792-2836559 (0x2b4550-0x2b484f) <=== separate clusters, outside $MFT
$BITMAP $I30 (resident)

Another option would be to add a new metadata file called $BAGS
and it would live like the $MFT lives. Only directories would
be in it (fewer filenum than $MFT -- would use same filenum
as the $MFT uses). But they could afford to make the entry
size bigger than 1KB. That would change the NTFS spec and
need a new version number.

They could also use yet another sqlite file for storing
that info (indexed by filenum). There are already sqlite files
for tracking the installation of Metro Apps.

They have actually "done awful things" already. The other
day, I was running an icacls dump, and I thought for a moment
my disk drive was broken, when I looked at the output text file.
But they've added yet another God-awful security feature, which
spells things out ("Tell me a story" style) for individual files.
How is that innovation ? It looks ridiculous, like Romper Room.

They are not adverse to being Bad Monkeys. It's done
just when it suits them.

Paul

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:

> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
> that fills up to save folder options.
>
> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>
> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>
> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?

Actually they're called shell bags, or shellbags, due the key names in
the registry. I keep a .reg file that will blank those settings in the
registry. It has (between the dashed lines):

----------

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags]
[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagsMRU]

[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ShellNoRoam\Bags]
[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ShellNoRoam\BagMRU]

[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags]
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags]
[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU]
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU]

[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Wow6432Node\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags]
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Wow6432Node\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags]
[-HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Wow6432Node\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU]
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Wow6432Node\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU]

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell]
"BagMRU Size"=dword:4e20
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU]
"BagMRU Size"=dword:4e20

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\Bags\AllFolders\Shell]
"FolderType"="NotSpecified"

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\Explorer]
"NoSaveSettings"=-
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\Explorer]
"NoSaveSettings"=-

----------

There are cleaner tools that will also wipe the shell bags. CCleaner
can use its winapp2.ini file to tell CCleaner to wipe the shell bags;
see https://community.ccleaner.com/topic/32310-winapp2ini-additions/. I
would prefer a less obtuse method of getting CCleaner to wipe shell
bags, like have an registry option that says "Clear shell bags".
Bleachbit also relies on winapp2.ini to perform custom registry cleanup.
So, I made up my own .reg file for that task.

Note that you lose customization of folders. Also, the history rolls
out: older entries get removed, which means eventually you will lose
those folder attributes, and why some users complain about losing those
attributes. You can up the history size, but I don't now remember the
registry entry to edit. I got aware of shell bags back in Windows XP,
and later. However, maybe Microsoft took away the option from users to
set the shell bags history depth. The count is in the thousands, so you
have to open a lot of "new" folders (those you haven't opened before) to
encounter the rollover to lose old entries.

Shell bags will remain even after the associated folder(s) have been
deleted, and why some privacy paranoids want to delete them. Often
users give a folder a descriptive name which belies its contents, so
forensics can use info in shell bags to see what folders you have now
and what folders you had before. Shell bags can be used to reconstruct
your activity in the file system along with exposing names of folders
you previously deleted.

Nirsoft has their ShellBagView tool to show you what has been stored in
the registry. You can select some items, or all items, to reset, but
I'm not sure what reset does. Perhaps it deletes the individually
numbered bag entries, or just clears them while leaving them in the
registry.

There is also SANS Inst's Shell Bags Explorer that shows the folders in
a tree list, and is at:

https://www.sans.org/tools/shellbags-explorer/

Another shell bags tool is from Privazer:

https://privazer.com/en/download-shellbag-analyzer-shellbag-cleaner.php

Mostly shell bags are used to remember size and location of windows.
However, they also remember folder names (to know which to apply sizing
and location). desktop.ini holds other customizations.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/shell/how-to-customize-folders-with-desktop-ini

If you set File Explorer to show hidden and system files, you may find
you start to accidentally delete the desktop.ini files as well. You hit
Ctrl+A to select all files which includes desktop.ini, hit Delete, and
now the icon, thumbnail, infotip, folder type, and other customizations
are lost. There is no window sizing or location stored in desktop.ini.
Even the folder name is not listed since the desktop.ini file applies to
whichever folder it is in. For example, sometimes users don't like that
a folder was assigned as a picture or video folter type, so they
right-click on the folder, select Properties, click the Customize
folder, and change the folder type (how it is optimized). They can do
the same when they want a special icon to show for the folder. Delete
the desktop.ini file under that folder, and all those customizations
disappear.

I just use my .reg file to wipe them all shell bags at the same time.
However, I don't often run my .reg file. Maybe once or twice a year.
And then I found out I've lost the folder type or folder icon
customizations I spent time to configure before.

Paul wrote:
> On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>
>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>
>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>
>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>
> Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
> of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
> users who keeped needing that bumped up.
>
>
> Paul
>
When was the last time on Win10/11 you needed to change or clear the
registry 'Bags/BagsMRU' and related keys

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 10/13/2023 2:25 AM, ...winston wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>> On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
>>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>>
>>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>>
>>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>>
>>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>
>> Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
>> of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
>> users who keeped needing that bumped up.
>>
>>
>>     Paul
>>
> When was the last time on Win10/11 you needed to change or clear the registry 'Bags/BagsMRU' and related keys
>
I've never had to do it.

But the people who have it done, tend to need
it more than once. This implies "some style of usage"
that I did not ask any questions as to what they were
doing with it.

So it's a feature -- and some people seem to trigger pathology.

Maybe it is large quantities of media files plus wanting to
view them a particular way ? I don't have a media collection here.

Paul

Paul wrote:
> On 10/13/2023 2:25 AM, ...winston wrote:
>> Paul wrote:
>>> On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
>>>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>>>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>>>
>>>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>>>
>>>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>>>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>>>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>>>
>>>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>>>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>>
>>> Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
>>> of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
>>> users who keeped needing that bumped up.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>>
>> When was the last time on Win10/11 you needed to change or clear the registry 'Bags/BagsMRU' and related keys
>>
> I've never had to do it.
>
> But the people who have it done, tend to need
> it more than once. This implies "some style of usage"
> that I did not ask any questions as to what they were
> doing with it.
>
> So it's a feature -- and some people seem to trigger pathology.
>
> Maybe it is large quantities of media files plus wanting to
> view them a particular way ? I don't have a media collection here.
>
> Paul
>

Likewise, never had to either.

Powershell command
((gp "HKCU:\SOFTWARE\Classes\Local
Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU").Nodeslots).count

=> Shows 1090 being remembered on this fully updated Win10 Pro 22H2
That's after the last clean install(replaced HD with an SSD) in July 2020

Iirc the default limit is 5000 folders

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 02:25:32 -0400, "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Paul wrote:
>> On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
>>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>>
>>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>>
>>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>>
>>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>
>> Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
>> of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
>> users who keeped needing that bumped up.
>>
>When was the last time on Win10/11 you needed to change or clear the
>registry 'Bags/BagsMRU' and related keys

Just now. That's why I posted. It's a ticking time bomb and it doesn't
prune itself when it hits the limit. So your folder views just stop
working and you're off to Google. I'd rather lose all customization at
that point and have it still work.

So, let me get this right, your argument is this broken design generally
works for most users so "this is fine?" (dog in room on fire)

Yes, I know you were asking Paul but wow man, talk about being a complete
apologist. This should not work this way.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:58:44 -0400, Big Al <Bears@invalid.com> wrote:

>On 10/12/23 01:19 PM, this is what Zaghadka wrote:
>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>
>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>
>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>
>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>
>Do you know where the 'bags' setting is? probably the registry? Might be nice if we could change it then, of course at
>the cost of using drive space.

I used to. It keeps getting increased by MS. I assume they limit it to
limit the size of the registry, so I go with Microsoft's recommendation
as they did all the testing for response time. When I did know, it never
mattered how much I increased it; it eventually ran out. It's a time bomb
with absolutely no explantion as to why your folder view settings no
longer persist.

The only real workaround is to periodically blow away Shell:Bags and
Shell:BagMRU. It doesn't take long to get the stuff you want a custom
view for back the way it was.

Naturally, "Bags" is a per-user setting, so you'll find it in:

HKCU\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell

You can safely prune the whole thing. It will lose your explorer window
sizes and any special views (returning them to defaults). It is trivial
to set them back.

>I don't know how Linux does it but it too remembers all the folders.

You know damn well how. Linux does sane.

I'm sure there's a flat, editable, per-user text file with a "." in front
of it right in each folder. I would be surprised if it were otherwise. I
would not be surprised, however, if each file manager had its own cfg
file. Go look at your hidden files and tell me if I'm right.

MS's way is like storing it in /etc. Only it's the registry, which is
worse by far.

The funny thing is, even Microsoft has a hidden file called "desktop.ini"
for each folder, but only uses it for very specific things. Worse, it's a
system file, so just turning on show hidden doesn't work. You also have
to uncheck "hide OS files."

This is an example of a desktop.ini:

>[ViewState]
>Mode=
>Vid=
>FolderType=Generic
>[.ShellClassInfo]
>IconResource=C:\Windows\Icons\Mandala.ico,0

It decides whether it's a generic, music, photos, etc. folder. It also
stores a custom icon if you chose one.

Why they insist on doing registry too when they already have that flat,
editable file drives me up a wall. This is such an *easy* fix.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 10:26:58 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/13/2023 2:25 AM, ...winston wrote:
>> Paul wrote:
>>> On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
>>>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>>>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>>>
>>>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>>>
>>>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>>>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>>>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>>>
>>>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>>>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>>
>>> Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
>>> of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
>>> users who keeped needing that bumped up.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Paul
>>>
>> When was the last time on Win10/11 you needed to change or clear the registry 'Bags/BagsMRU' and related keys
>>
>I've never had to do it.
>
>But the people who have it done, tend to need
>it more than once. This implies "some style of usage"
>that I did not ask any questions as to what they were
>doing with it.
>
>So it's a feature -- and some people seem to trigger pathology.
>
>Maybe it is large quantities of media files plus wanting to
>view them a particular way ? I don't have a media collection here.
>
Yeah. The behavior is switching custom views a lot. Going to thumbnails
and going back to list view, for instance. File Manager doesn't overwrite
a folder bag. It just adds a new bag. The bag that broke on mine was the
Recycle Bin, and I had already set it several times to "group by" "date
deleted."

Then it just stopped working, on its own. I didn't make a change, but
when I tried to change it back, it wouldn't persist. At some point,
Windows ran out of bags and nerfed my Recycle Bin view, even though it's
the default view. You have to know these things or you're stuck.

TL;DR: Twitchy power user.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 19:30:53 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>
>Actually they're called shell bags, or shellbags, [snip]

The subkey is "Bags," as I stated. I thought the subkey was more
important because someone might want to search on it. Otherwise, yeah,
they're shell bags.

[snip]

>I just use my .reg file to wipe them all shell bags at the same time.
>However, I don't often run my .reg file. Maybe once or twice a year.
>And then I found out I've lost the folder type or folder icon
>customizations I spent time to configure before.

That's a good copy/paste for anyone who runs into this problem.

I have a bookmark in Registry Workshop. I just fire up that and blow them
away. Better than a .reg file for me because I run as a standard user.
I'd have to go into an admin console to register it, and then HKCU
wouldn't work. I'd have to include the actual user identifier.

I highly recommend Registry Workshop, btw. It has must-have features like
bookmarks, backup, and undo.

http://www.torchsoft.com/en/rw_information.html

So it's trivial to fix. Finding out that you need to do it, or that you
don't need to reinstall your OS, that's a trick. I ran into this on
Windows 98, IIRC. Definitely by XP. I increased the max value on XP.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 18:35:00 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>The idea is, small files can be stored in a $MFT slot entry,
>which is 1KB or so, as far as I know.

I think 1KiB, 1024 characters including LFs, is plenty to include all the
detail they need, don't you?

If they ran out of characters, they could use unfriendly names, ie:

Sort=1
Group=2
X=800
Y=600

1KiB is plenty. 512B is plenty, in fact. Bit mask changes if they really
can't do that. Then a DWORD is enough. This is not rocket science.

I don't think it's literally stored in the $MFT though. It's a flat file
that I can delete. What do you mean by that?

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Zaghadka wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 02:25:32 -0400, "...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Paul wrote:
>>> On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
>>>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>>>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>>>
>>>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>>>
>>>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>>>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>>>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>>>
>>>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>>>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>>
>>> Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
>>> of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
>>> users who keeped needing that bumped up.
>>>
>> When was the last time on Win10/11 you needed to change or clear the
>> registry 'Bags/BagsMRU' and related keys
>
> Just now. That's why I posted. It's a ticking time bomb and it doesn't
> prune itself when it hits the limit. So your folder views just stop
> working and you're off to Google. I'd rather lose all customization at
> that point and have it still work.
>
> So, let me get this right, your argument is this broken design generally
> works for most users so "this is fine?" (dog in room on fire)
>
> Yes, I know you were asking Paul but wow man, talk about being a complete
> apologist. This should not work this way.
>

Lol..wasn't an argument, just a curious question(for Paul).

I suspect, almost everyone else has the same answer - 'never had to do it'

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

"...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Paul wrote:
>> On 10/13/2023 2:25 AM, ...winston wrote:
>>> Paul wrote:
>>>> On 10/12/2023 1:19 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
>>>>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>>>>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>>>>
>>>>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>>>>
>>>>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>>>>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>>>>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>>>>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>>>
>>>> Kids like unscalable design ? I always got a kick out
>>>> of the limited size of the Bags thing. There were a few WinXP
>>>> users who keeped needing that bumped up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Paul
>>>>
>>> When was the last time on Win10/11 you needed to change or clear the registry 'Bags/BagsMRU' and related keys
>>>
>> I've never had to do it.
>>
>> But the people who have it done, tend to need
>> it more than once. This implies "some style of usage"
>> that I did not ask any questions as to what they were
>> doing with it.
>>
>> So it's a feature -- and some people seem to trigger pathology.
>>
>> Maybe it is large quantities of media files plus wanting to
>> view them a particular way ? I don't have a media collection here.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
> Likewise, never had to either.
>
> Powershell command
> ((gp "HKCU:\SOFTWARE\Classes\Local
> Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell\BagMRU").Nodeslots).count
>
> => Shows 1090 being remembered on this fully updated Win10 Pro 22H2
> That's after the last clean install(replaced HD with an SSD) in July 2020
>
> Iirc the default limit is 5000 folders

In my earlier reply, I knew there was a registry setting to up the count
of shell bags. That only means it will take longer for the FIFO roll
out to forget a folder view. I've only encountered losing the folder
view once, and at that time found out to edit the registry to up the
shell bag count from 5000 up to 20000 (decimal). The default count
(5000) gets used if the registry entry is missing, so you have to add
the registry entry to decrease or increase the shell bag count. See:

https://winaero.com/change-number-of-folder-views-to-remember-in-windows-10/

The registry entry you add/edit is:

Key: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell​
Data name (DWORD): BagMRU Size
Data value: 5000 default, up to 20000 max

Don't ask me why 20000 is the max. Microsoft must've put some limit on
that settings. Perhaps if you specify a larger count, Microsoft is
going to use a limit of 20000. I just looked at my setting, and I
must've created the data item and upped it to 10000 sometime after a
fresh install in Win10.

Is is a user settings, so you would have to log into every Windows
account to change it there, or dig for the matching key under
HKEY_USERS\<sid> after finding the sid (security identifier) for an
account. Some SIDs (the short ones) are system specific, so don't edit
those. Unless you wrest control over the accounts of others (if there
are any on your computer), you probably shouldn't be touching registry
settings for other accounts, so just touch the HKCU registry hive.

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:

> It's a ticking time bomb and it doesn't prune itself when it hits the
> limit. So your folder views just stop working and you're off to
> Google. I'd rather lose all customization at that point and have it
> still work.

That is not my experience. When the shell bags MRU (Most Recently Used)
count is exceed, it is a FIFO operation: oldest folder views (bags) get
dropped. When the count of shell bags hits the BagMRU Size limit, new
entries push old entries out, and that's when you lose the old folder
view for the old bag entry. As more buffalos stampede into the herd,
the ones at the cliff get pushed off.

Do you have a legit value for BagMRU Size in the registry? If not
defined, the default of 5000 gets used. Apparently the high limit is
20000 (decimal).

While I managed once to lose some folder views because of the shell bags
roll out, I've never lost all folder views all at once when hitting the
BagMRU Size limit.

On 10/13/2023 2:36 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's a ticking time bomb and it doesn't prune itself when it hits the
>> limit. So your folder views just stop working and you're off to
>> Google. I'd rather lose all customization at that point and have it
>> still work.
>
> That is not my experience. When the shell bags MRU (Most Recently Used)
> count is exceed, it is a FIFO operation: oldest folder views (bags) get
> dropped. When the count of shell bags hits the BagMRU Size limit, new
> entries push old entries out, and that's when you lose the old folder
> view for the old bag entry. As more buffalos stampede into the herd,
> the ones at the cliff get pushed off.
>
> Do you have a legit value for BagMRU Size in the registry? If not
> defined, the default of 5000 gets used. Apparently the high limit is
> 20000 (decimal).
>
> While I managed once to lose some folder views because of the shell bags
> roll out, I've never lost all folder views all at once when hitting the
> BagMRU Size limit.
>

So what we could be seeing, is a bug then, something to report to the Feedback Hub.

Bags is supposed to have "Most Recently Used" behavior, and what users
are supposed to notice, is "random folders have lost their setting"
and "I go to another folder and now it has lost its view preference".
As in your buffalo analogy, the oldest buffalo goes over the cliff,
one after another, in FIFO order.

So Zaghadka correcting the Recycle bin view, it should be preserved, while
some other folder gets kicked to the curb. As I understand it,
that is how it is supposed to work. As you explain.

*******

The Recycle Bin is a "projection", involving the collection of information
from multiple partitions. It is not a conventional folder, and in a sense,
it is "already" a custom view. It is a custom view, with custom preferences,
a dangerous mix. I don't know how any changes you make there, "should be stored".
No idea. Could the routine that does that, use only the information for
some C: folder, to determine the sorting ?

File 64
\$Recycle.Bin
$STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident)
$FILE_NAME (resident)
$INDEX_ROOT $I30 (resident)
$INDEX_ALLOCATION $I30 (nonresident)
logical sectors 24-31 (0x18-0x1f)
$BITMAP $I30 (resident)

File 3727
\$Recycle.Bin\S-1-5-18\desktop.ini <=== there are many more gubbins like this
$STANDARD_INFORMATION (resident)
$FILE_NAME (resident)
$DATA (resident)

cmd.exe
cd /d c:
dir /ah # Should see hidden C:\$Recycle.Bin
dir /ah $Recycle.Bin

Directory of C:\$Recycle.Bin # Information sorted by SIDs and well-known-SID
# No desktop.ini declaring a custom view yet.

05/26/2023 01:51 AM <DIR> .
10/13/2023 07:03 AM <DIR> ..
02/06/2022 05:50 AM <DIR> S-1-5-18
02/15/2023 06:39 PM <DIR> S-1-5-21-1111111111-222222222-3333333333-1000
04/04/2022 08:23 AM <DIR> S-1-5-21-4444444444-5555555555-6666666666-1001

But we know that this baby exists -- C:\$Recycle.Bin\S-1-5-18\desktop.ini

*******

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/secauthz/well-known-sids # Typical MSFT documentation
# Special, my ass.

SECURITY_LOCAL_SYSTEM_RID S-1-5-18 A special account used by the operating system.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-server/identity/ad-ds/manage/understand-security-identifiers

S-1-5-18 System (or LocalSystem) # Better documentation. It's SYSTEM token.
# More details available on page.

There is a desktop.ini in S-1-5-18 . And there's a CLSID in it. Which just
might call the custom recycle bin code. I have a picture of notepad opening
the desktop.ini in here.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/90ZFq5ym/recycle-bin-traversal.gif

[.ShellClassInfo]
CLSID={645FF040-5081-101B-9F08-00AA002F954E}
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-8964

https://strontic.github.io/xcyclopedia/library/clsid_645FF040-5081-101B-9F08-00AA002F954E.html

Now, the only reason I can "navigate" down there, is I have the output of nfi.exe
and I "know" something is there. That's how I can name it. Feeling around with
various "dir /ah" attribute sorts, would take forever.

You would think it would be possible to restore the shellbag-induced view
in C:\$Recycle.Bin\S-1-5-18\ by the usual File Explorer operation,
but the folder is not owned by the user.

Paul

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:36:56 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's a ticking time bomb and it doesn't prune itself when it hits the
>> limit. So your folder views just stop working and you're off to
>> Google. I'd rather lose all customization at that point and have it
>> still work.
>
>That is not my experience. When the shell bags MRU (Most Recently Used)
>count is exceed, it is a FIFO operation: oldest folder views (bags) get
>dropped. When the count of shell bags hits the BagMRU Size limit, new
>entries push old entries out, and that's when you lose the old folder
>view for the old bag entry. As more buffalos stampede into the herd,
>the ones at the cliff get pushed off.
>
Yeah. Not my experience. If it worked that way, this would all be fine.
What happens to me, whenever I exceed the limit, is that a folder will no
longer take customization. Random folders will also lose customization
and not retain settings. File Manager will change the view of an affected
open folder, but when you close and reopen it, the customization is lost.

Since it was the most recent folder I had opened, if it works the way you
say, it should have been placed at the head of the herd. That should have
killed a stray folder in the back. This would present no problem.

Doesn't seem to work that way any time I've run into the problem.

Only cure I've found is to delete the Bags key (and BagMRU just to be
clean about it). I've had this happen only a few times over the years. It
generally takes years before I hit the limitation. Two maybe three times
for the life of my XP install (a decade, iirc).

First time it's ever happened on 11 and I adopted it immediately on RTM.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 16:48:35 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/13/2023 2:36 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's a ticking time bomb and it doesn't prune itself when it hits the
>>> limit. So your folder views just stop working and you're off to
>>> Google. I'd rather lose all customization at that point and have it
>>> still work.
>>
>> That is not my experience. When the shell bags MRU (Most Recently Used)
>> count is exceed, it is a FIFO operation: oldest folder views (bags) get
>> dropped. When the count of shell bags hits the BagMRU Size limit, new
>> entries push old entries out, and that's when you lose the old folder
>> view for the old bag entry. As more buffalos stampede into the herd,
>> the ones at the cliff get pushed off.
>>
>> Do you have a legit value for BagMRU Size in the registry? If not
>> defined, the default of 5000 gets used. Apparently the high limit is
>> 20000 (decimal).
>>
>> While I managed once to lose some folder views because of the shell bags
>> roll out, I've never lost all folder views all at once when hitting the
>> BagMRU Size limit.
>>
>
>So what we could be seeing, is a bug then, something to report to the Feedback Hub.
>
>Bags is supposed to have "Most Recently Used" behavior, and what users
>are supposed to notice, is "random folders have lost their setting"
>and "I go to another folder and now it has lost its view preference".
>As in your buffalo analogy, the oldest buffalo goes over the cliff,
>one after another, in FIFO order.
>
>So Zaghadka correcting the Recycle bin view, it should be preserved, while
>some other folder gets kicked to the curb. As I understand it,
>that is how it is supposed to work. As you explain.

Yeah. If it's a bug, it's a very known, very old bug. It goes back to XP
at least. When it happened in Windows 7, my Games Explorer lost its
customizations and would not take them again until I blew away the Bags
key.

I don't know if it goes through a period of "normal behavior" as
VanguardLH describes. Eventually, it stops working that way.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:21:50 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

>In my earlier reply, I knew there was a registry setting to up the count
>of shell bags. That only means it will take longer for the FIFO roll
>out to forget a folder view. I've only encountered losing the folder
>view once, and at that time found out to edit the registry to up the
>shell bag count from 5000 up to 20000 (decimal). The default count
>(5000) gets used if the registry entry is missing, so you have to add
>the registry entry to decrease or increase the shell bag count. See:
>
>https://winaero.com/change-number-of-folder-views-to-remember-in-windows-10/
>
>The registry entry you add/edit is:
>
>Key: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell?
>Data name (DWORD): BagMRU Size
>Data value: 5000 default, up to 20000 max
>
>Don't ask me why 20000 is the max.

So weird, right? If it was 32768, that might make some kind of sense.

There is no DWORD value "BagMRU Size" on my Windows 11 install, so lord
knows what the default is. I assume no value is some arbitrary default.

Anyway, I don't need to do any of that. I can just delete the proper keys
from time to time. It really is pretty trivial to get things back.

It's just funny to me that it still behaves this way.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 10/13/2023 12:26 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 16:58:44 -0400, Big Al <Bears@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/12/23 01:19 PM, this is what Zaghadka wrote:
>>> In all the years I've been using Windows, there's this key called "Bags"
>>> that fills up to save folder options.
>>>
>>> When it reaches it's maximum, Windows stops retaining folder options.
>>>
>>> The max has been increased with each edition of Windows, but still
>>> appears to be finite, because I just had to blow away my "Bags" and
>>> "BagMRU" keys again to get Windows 11 to keep its folder settings.
>>>
>>> Why the hell haven't they fixed this by sticking the folder settings in
>>> "desktop.ini" or something? I mean truly, WTAF?
>>>
>> Do you know where the 'bags' setting is? probably the registry? Might be nice if we could change it then, of course at
>> the cost of using drive space.
>
> I used to. It keeps getting increased by MS. I assume they limit it to
> limit the size of the registry, so I go with Microsoft's recommendation
> as they did all the testing for response time. When I did know, it never
> mattered how much I increased it; it eventually ran out. It's a time bomb
> with absolutely no explantion as to why your folder view settings no
> longer persist.
>
> The only real workaround is to periodically blow away Shell:Bags and
> Shell:BagMRU. It doesn't take long to get the stuff you want a custom
> view for back the way it was.
>
> Naturally, "Bags" is a per-user setting, so you'll find it in:
>
> HKCU\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell
>
> You can safely prune the whole thing. It will lose your explorer window
> sizes and any special views (returning them to defaults). It is trivial
> to set them back.
>
>> I don't know how Linux does it but it too remembers all the folders.
>
> You know damn well how. Linux does sane.
>
> I'm sure there's a flat, editable, per-user text file with a "." in front
> of it right in each folder. I would be surprised if it were otherwise. I
> would not be surprised, however, if each file manager had its own cfg
> file. Go look at your hidden files and tell me if I'm right.
>
> MS's way is like storing it in /etc. Only it's the registry, which is
> worse by far.
>
> The funny thing is, even Microsoft has a hidden file called "desktop.ini"
> for each folder, but only uses it for very specific things. Worse, it's a
> system file, so just turning on show hidden doesn't work. You also have
> to uncheck "hide OS files."
>
> This is an example of a desktop.ini:
>
>> [ViewState]
>> Mode=
>> Vid=
>> FolderType=Generic
>> [.ShellClassInfo]
>> IconResource=C:\Windows\Icons\Mandala.ico,0
>
> It decides whether it's a generic, music, photos, etc. folder. It also
> stores a custom icon if you chose one.
>
> Why they insist on doing registry too when they already have that flat,
> editable file drives me up a wall. This is such an *easy* fix.

It's because they are attempting to keep their desktop.ini
files, under 700 or so bytes.

Paul

On 10/13/2023 5:29 PM, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 13:21:50 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> In my earlier reply, I knew there was a registry setting to up the count
>> of shell bags. That only means it will take longer for the FIFO roll
>> out to forget a folder view. I've only encountered losing the folder
>> view once, and at that time found out to edit the registry to up the
>> shell bag count from 5000 up to 20000 (decimal). The default count
>> (5000) gets used if the registry entry is missing, so you have to add
>> the registry entry to decrease or increase the shell bag count. See:
>>
>> https://winaero.com/change-number-of-folder-views-to-remember-in-windows-10/
>>
>> The registry entry you add/edit is:
>>
>> Key: HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes\Local Settings\Software\Microsoft\Windows\Shell?
>> Data name (DWORD): BagMRU Size
>> Data value: 5000 default, up to 20000 max
>>
>> Don't ask me why 20000 is the max.
>
> So weird, right? If it was 32768, that might make some kind of sense.
>
> There is no DWORD value "BagMRU Size" on my Windows 11 install, so lord
> knows what the default is. I assume no value is some arbitrary default.
>
> Anyway, I don't need to do any of that. I can just delete the proper keys
> from time to time. It really is pretty trivial to get things back.
>
> It's just funny to me that it still behaves this way.
>

https://superuser.com/questions/1752744/shell-bags-registry-hacks

"The requirements listed in the question are all handled by the
app WinSetView. It's a free, open source, portable app that works
by setting/clearing the same registry keys/values as outlined in
Keith Miller's answer."

https://lesferch.github.io/WinSetView/

https://lesferch.github.io/WinSetView/Manual.html

"CaptureCustom.vbs

This script captures Explorer view settings that can’t be set in WinSetView,
such as Recycle Bin and Control Panel views. First run WinSetView to set
your desired Explorer default view settings. Next, set Recycle Bin, Control Panel,
etc. to your desired views and close those windows. Then run CaptureCustom.vbs.
It will export the ControlPanel, BagMRU, and Bags keys to a file named CaptureCustom.reg.
"

So there does seem to be something different enough, that the author of
that program did not bother with a Recycle Bin solution.

Paul

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:38:16 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

>> Why they insist on doing registry too when they already have that flat,
>> editable file drives me up a wall. This is such an *easy* fix.
>
>It's because they are attempting to keep their desktop.ini
>files, under 700 or so bytes.

I think that would be quite manageable. Rn, the file takes up less than
50B. If they ditch retaining window size by resolution, it would take no
more than 200-300B. With 700B, they could probably even manage size by
screen res.

Now, if they want to keep the files under 100B, that's a different story.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten