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computers / comp.misc / Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

SubjectAuthor
* An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsBen Collver
+* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsStefan Ram
|`- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJulieta Shem
+* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsStefan Ram
|+* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsBen Collver
||+* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJavier
|||`* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsStefan Ram
||| `* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJavier
|||  `* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsStefan Ram
|||   `- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJavier
||`* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJulieta Shem
|| +* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsStefan Ram
|| |`* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJulieta Shem
|| | +* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsRichard Kettlewell
|| | |+* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformscandycanearter07
|| | ||`- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsDan Purgert
|| | |`- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJulieta Shem
|| | +* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsStefan Ram
|| | |`* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsAnton Shepelev
|| | | `* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformscr0c0d1le
|| | |  `* Stoicism [was: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms]Anton Shepelev
|| | |   `* Re: Stoicism [was: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms]D
|| | |    `* Re: Stoicism [was: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms]D
|| | |     `- Re: Stoicism [was: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms]Anton Shepelev
|| | +- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsComputer Nerd Kev
|| | +- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsScott Dorsey
|| | `- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsRetrograde
|| +* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsStefan Ram
|| |`- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJulieta Shem
|| `* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsAnton Shepelev
||  `- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsJulieta Shem
|`- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsRich
+* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsTheo
|+* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsscott
||`* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsComputer Nerd Kev
|| `* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsTheo
||  `* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsscott
||   `- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsTheo
|`- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsAnton Shepelev
`* Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsAnton Shepelev
 `- Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platformsRich

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Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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From: not...@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Subject: Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms
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 by: Computer Nerd Kev - Mon, 4 Dec 2023 20:55 UTC

Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> wrote:
> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>>>provide an easy way for me to continue this conversation from August
>>>2023 (now in December 2023) with my choice of colors, font and text
>>>editor? Just that already affects the discussion in relevant ways.
>>
>> Technically, I can answer any post I can still read, but
>> often people do not like it when one responds to old posts.
>
> Why not?

In the case of this thread, the start is beyond the maximum 500
(even 1000) posts that I have my newsreader set to fetch headers
for, so the previous discussion isn't visible. Unlike Google Groups
user's replies to thirty year old discussions, this probably isn't
equally disruptive to all readers. Some will fetch more headers (if
not expired on their news server), or keep previously downloaded
headers/posts, depending on their software and configuration.

This does prevent the frequently-seen issue on old forums where
some fool replies to a decades old thread, making it appear again
to readers who fail to notice the dates of earlier posts in the
thread, and who then respond themselves asking eg. why the OP is
using such old technology.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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From: jsh...@yaxenu.org (Julieta Shem)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms
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 by: Julieta Shem - Mon, 4 Dec 2023 23:24 UTC

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>>> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>>>> What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
>>>> communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with
>>>> the education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because
>>>> they don't seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves
>>>> into.
>
> In reality, many people are well aware of the issues with other
> communication platforms.

That's good news.

>>> But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!
>> That's life. Why are they leaving?
>
> People stop using Usenet for a variety of reasons, including:
>
> - they found better alternatives for their use cases
> - they followed their communities elsewhere
> - they got sick of spam
> - they got sick of trolls (in the broadest possible sense)
> - they became too busy

That's my case --- often too busy. But I come back whenever I can and
right now I'm a phase where I think I can be here regularly.

> - they aged out

That's life.

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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From: jsh...@yaxenu.org (Julieta Shem)
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 by: Julieta Shem - Mon, 4 Dec 2023 23:29 UTC

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:

> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>>What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
>>communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with the
>>education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because they don't
>>seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves into.
>
> |The sage
> |does not recruit students;
> |the students seek him.
> from a part of a translation of the
> text of the I Ching diagram four.

I would totally agree with this part of this translation. I in no way
meant that we should be bringing any kids or anyone in here. That's no
good education. I think good education is /living/ a good education.
The fact that I exchange ideas here in the way that we do is one of my
contributions to the education of the world. I'm giving the example.
I'm often around the hip kids and they never find me in any of these
private networks. And often wonder why --- and I tell them. (I don't
even know how these other software-services work and I was never too
curious --- thankfully. It's easy for me to stay away because I dislike
them.)

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

<uklogm$bjg$1@panix2.panix.com>

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From: klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: comp.misc
Subject: Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms
Date: 4 Dec 2023 23:48:38 -0000
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 by: Scott Dorsey - Mon, 4 Dec 2023 23:48 UTC

In article <87r0k2u45w.fsf@yaxenu.org>, Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> wrote:
>ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>
>> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>>>provide an easy way for me to continue this conversation from August
>>>2023 (now in December 2023) with my choice of colors, font and text
>>>editor? Just that already affects the discussion in relevant ways.
>>
>> Technically, I can answer any post I can still read, but
>> often people do not like it when one responds to old posts.
>
>Why not?

Because really there's no point in replying to a thread that ended thirty
years ago and where all the participants have died or at least left Usenet.

All the time on rec.audio.pro we get posts from people asking if that thing
that someone posted for sale in 1992 is still available. It likely is not.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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From: fun...@amongus.com.invalid (Retrograde)
Subject: Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms
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 by: Retrograde - Tue, 12 Dec 2023 03:07 UTC

On 2023-12-04, Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> wrote:
>> But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!
>
> That's life. Why are they leaving?

Cancer, mostly.

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

<20231224005123.8bef4731b578845ced510bc0@gmail.moc>

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From: anton....@gmail.moc (Anton Shepelev)
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Subject: Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms
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 by: Anton Shepelev - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 21:51 UTC

Theo:

> Forums attempt to simulate 'push' by:
> a) Sending you emails about activity. Then it's just a
> bad mailing list, because the emails typically do not
> convey the full content (they just say 'X posted to Y
> thread' or similar) so you have to visit the web site
> anyway

It is true only of idiotic modern forums, which force your
to visit them in order to monitise on it. Normal forums from
the dial-up days did send full notifictions, nor did they
stop sending them if you didn't visit the forum, so that you
had the entire discussion tree (properly threaded) in you e-
mail client.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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 by: Anton Shepelev - Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:03 UTC

Julieta Shem:

> A tool I never investigated properly is Discourse.

It is advertised as an alternatvie to mailing lists, but I
have not found it so. No, it does not work like a mailing
list at all. It garbles my beautiful plain-text hard-
wrapped formatting. It even fails to display my messages in
a monospace font unless I send Markdown direct from my
e-mail client (which is difficult and stupid). It requires
of me to use a modern browser on a modern OS on a modern PC,
even if only to register and enable its incomplete mailing-
list mode. A mailing list must be acessible to anyone with
but an e-mail client, without any browser, let alone a
phone. I have complained about it, but nobody cares, people
and projects are moving away from Usenet, IRC, and mailing
lists to Discourse and Discourd. Nobody seems to care
anymore.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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 by: Anton Shepelev - Sun, 24 Dec 2023 00:15 UTC

Dean:

> In the 90's for Open Source projects the "community
> platforms" where Usenet newsgroups and mailing lists

Many open-source projects /still/ are -- an omission
amounting to a lie.

> run on Listserv or Majordomo (Mailman didn't show up until
> 1999). IRC was used for text based chat but without SSL!.

I still use IRC without SSL from my old PC, and guess
what? -- no problem.

> CVS was the open source version control system of choice
> or you might have been unlucky enough to use Visual Source
> Safe at work, whilst Subversion wouldn't show up until
> 2000.

The reader's critical defences are being softened up.

> But the 90's are more than 20 years in the past and IPv6
> is actually seeing meaningful adoption now. Many of the
> above technologies are as completely foreign to people
> with 10+ years of industry experience as Compact
> Cassettes, VHS, LaserDisc and maybe CDs or even DVDs.

Irrelevant blather, a logical diversion to insinuate a false
analogy. By the way, some of the best music is /still/
being released exclusively on CD.

> As people have embraced Git and even now IPv6

This hackneyed malapropism of the word `embrace' betrays a
typical corporate speechwriter.

> -- we too can and must embrace newer platforms that offer
> a better experience for us humans as we work together on
> Perl related projects.

A false analogy again, for stupid readers. Why the funk
does he thing modern platform provide a better experience?

> This will mean making some difficult and dispassionate
> decisions to deprecate long cherished platforms, as we
> embrace contemporary alternatives.

Now flattery, makes you feel proud and to feel like an adult
to migrage your mailing list to Discourse, whereas in fact
it is a very childish decision.

> Will a newcomer have a satisfactory experience?

Why on earth should a system be optimised for newcomers
instead of expericed users? For no reason at all. Any
efficient tool or system is optimied primarily for
experienced user. Yes, modern comerical software is
optimised for newcomer, for obvious reasons.

> How discoverable is it?

How hypocritical. The corporate giants are working very hard
to make traditinal communication platforms undiscoverable.

> How high/low is the barrier of entry?

Yes, it should be reasonably high to repel lamers.

> How familiar is the interface to newcomers?

The less the better. To be efficient, the interface should
be adapted to experienced users.

> How intuitive and effective is the user interface?

About as intuitive as the vi(m) editor, that is -- intuitive
once you graps the concept, but before that.

> Will questions be taken seriously and answered in a timely
> manner?

Nothing to do with modern vs traditional communication
platforms, at least directly. Some modern platform
encourage early answers by rating systems, scores, and by
archiving old discussions. Those are stupid, artificial,
limitations.

> Is the platform providing reasonable privacy and
> moderation controls?

Experience has tought us that any centralised control may be
harmful to a good free-flowing discussion. But I see no
problems with either privact or moderation in mailinsg lists
or IRC.

> How much time will admins spend maintaining the platform
> compared to maintaining the community on the platform?

I can see throught that. Create a Discord account to let a
third party manage your platform. Futhermore, maintaining a
mailing list, IRC channel, or a Usenet group is not
difficult.

> Would it be set up now if it didn't already exist?

Say what?

> Mailing lists are a good example which we can compare to
> my criteria.

Then did not you apply them to mailing lists in a structural
manner, point by point?

> If you can find the right list

Not an argument. This assumes the right list is hard to
find, but no evidence is provided.

> Your email address is blasted out to all subscribers which
> aren't visible to you

Wrong: mailing list software can mask your address, if you
so desire.

> whilst your inbox is already being filled with all
> discussion on the list even if you're not interested

The author is unaware of server-side and client-side
filters. Setting one up to sort variousl mailng lists to
their individual folders (say, IMAP folder) is /very/ easy.
Alternatively, one can even activate vacation mode and
access all mailinsg lists via NNTP though Gmane.

> assuming there is any discussion.

Hypocritical assumption of the opposite, which he so desires
and works for.

> Good luck finding old questions or discussions to
> contribute or update on.

Mailing list usually have searchable arhives, plus one may
search in one's e-mail client. Unlike moder platforms,
replaying to old threads /is/ possible.

> Once something is sent it can never be edited or removed
> from recipients.

Great. Teaches one to respect one's readers, not to hurry,
to proof-read.

> Users have each others email addresses so can contact each
> other without moderation.

Oh, horrors! Of course, the author wants to contol all
their comminuication.

> You can set up filters in your email if you care to, but
> this is an inconsistent user interface that is user
> dependent and you're still having to maintain the folder's
> unread messages.

Great: one is free to choose one's favourite approach to
filtering.

> Emails themselves become dominated by reply text, making
> reviewing threads high effort and low signal compared to
> interfaces like reddit or even a classic but inferior
> webforum layout.

Everything in this sentence is wrong. Decicaed client
software provides super-efficient facilities for navigaing
between threads, messages, and inside a message. Quoted text
is efficiently managed, and minimied, because netiquette
requires that one quote only the relevant parts. A tree-like
hierarchy of messages is condiductive to conherence, by
keeping related messages together, which is impossible in
the flat layout. The Reddit interface is so heavy and
cluttered, they I will prefer and old flat webforum any day.

> If I started a new community I wouldn't create an email
> list.

Yeah, your stinking attitude was obvious from the start.

> Run IRC through the above criteria and its even worse!

I wonder: how many years have you been an active
partiticpant in IRC? Zero?

> To have a good experience users need to connect
> continuously or set up something that does.

Say what? How exactly do occasional disconnections hurt?

> Then try to sift through the stream of content to find
> some signal.

The magic of IRC is all about diving /into/ that stream of
content. Otherwise, you of course can relay on mentioned of
you nick, of which all clients notificy the user is one way
or other.

> If there's any significant activity, questions and
> comments will get lost in the stream or conflated with
> other discussion.

This is wrong. Can anybody recall a time when they had
trouble reading fast enough? Can anybody recall a situation
when they lost track of their discussion in an active IRC
channel? I can't. I don't know why it does not happen, but
it simply does not.

> So let's not, metaphorically speaking, hand new Perl
> programmers an audio cassette saying "this really is the
> best way to listen to music" and then expect them to take
> Perl seriously or to conclude that it is anything other
> than a dead language.

Not an argument. Just another false analogy.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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From: jsh...@yaxenu.org (Julieta Shem)
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 by: Julieta Shem - Sun, 24 Dec 2023 07:12 UTC

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> writes:

> Julieta Shem:
>
>> A tool I never investigated properly is Discourse.
>
> It is advertised as an alternatvie to mailing lists, but I
> have not found it so. No, it does not work like a mailing
> list at all. It garbles my beautiful plain-text hard-
> wrapped formatting. It even fails to display my messages in
> a monospace font unless I send Markdown direct from my
> e-mail client (which is difficult and stupid). It requires
> of me to use a modern browser on a modern OS on a modern PC,
> even if only to register and enable its incomplete mailing-
> list mode. A mailing list must be acessible to anyone with
> but an e-mail client, without any browser, let alone a
> phone. I have complained about it, but nobody cares, people
> and projects are moving away from Usenet, IRC, and mailing
> lists to Discourse and Discourd. Nobody seems to care
> anymore.

Thanks for the report. (We may archive this subthread.)

Public-inbox at

https://public-inbox.org/README

looks pretty good.

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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 by: Rich - Sun, 24 Dec 2023 15:57 UTC

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> wrote:

> Dean:
>
>> In the 90's for Open Source projects the "community platforms" where
>> Usenet newsgroups and mailing lists
>
> Many open-source projects /still/ are -- an omission amounting to a
> lie.

Journalists get things wrong all the time -- in fact it is much more
common for them to be wrong about nearly everything they write than for
them to actually be correct. This is what is behind the concept of
"Gell-Mann Amnesia" for readers
(https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/).

Now, while journalists do sometimes lie explicity (more often in
political contexts than others) most often their falsehoods are simply
because they have a journalism degree, and are writing about something
technnical that they simply do not understand in even the slightest.

> This hackneyed malapropism of the word `embrace' betrays a typical
> corporate speechwriter.

What do you think is the definition of "journalist" today. They *are*
"typical corporate speechwriters" by and large.

>> -- we too can and must embrace newer platforms that offer a better
>> experience for us humans as we work together on Perl related
>> projects.
>
> A false analogy again, for stupid readers. Why the funk does he thing
> modern platform provide a better experience?

Because the two people he asked questions are in that 'new youngster'
group that has only known 'modern platforms' and so obviously they said
"modern platforms offer a better experience" -- which he used directly
without thought (journalists seldom 'think').

>> Your email address is blasted out to all subscribers which aren't
>> visible to you
>
> Wrong: mailing list software can mask your address, if you so desire.

See "Journalist" above -- it is *very* likely this journalist has never
used a proper mailing list, ever, and his only real world connection to
one is the corporate email blast every three days trying to drum
eyeballs over to the advertising portal webpage.

>> whilst your inbox is already being filled with all discussion on the
>> list even if you're not interested
>
> The author is unaware of server-side and client-side filters. Setting
> one up to sort variousl mailng lists to their individual folders (say,
> IMAP folder) is /very/ easy. Alternatively, one can even activate
> vacation mode and access all mailinsg lists via NNTP though Gmane.

See "journalist" above -- yes, he is 100% unaware that one can have
server/client filtering to sort the emails into different boxes.

>> Users have each others email addresses so can contact each other
>> without moderation.
>
> Oh, horrors! Of course, the author wants to contol all their
> comminuication.

See "journalist" above -- his 'communications' goes through multiple
levels of editors -- so his world view is that it is good to do so, as
that is all he has ever known.

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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 by: Anton Shepelev - Sat, 30 Dec 2023 18:21 UTC

Stefan Ram to Julieta Shem:

> > But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are
> > leaving!
>
> That's life.

Sounds fatalistic. Life is not an unstoppable cosmic force,
but rather something we humans forge for ourselves with our
decisions and actions.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Re: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms

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 by: cr0c0d1le - Mon, 1 Jan 2024 18:49 UTC

Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> writes:

> Stefan Ram to Julieta Shem:
>
>> > But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are
>> > leaving!
>>
>> That's life.
>
> Sounds fatalistic. Life is not an unstoppable cosmic force,
> but rather something we humans forge for ourselves with our
> decisions and actions.
As someone who practices Stoicism, I would say the reverse is true. Fate
is set in stone, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't give your 100% in
whatever you undertake.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent.

Stoicism [was: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms]

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From: anton....@g{oogle}mail.com (Anton Shepelev)
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 by: Anton Shepelev - Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:56 UTC

cr0c0d1le:

> > Sounds fatalistic. Life is not an unstoppable cosmic
> > force, but rather something we humans forge for
> > ourselves with our decisions and actions.
>
> As someone who practices Stoicism, I would say the reverse
> is true. Fate is set in stone, but it doesn't mean you
> shouldn't give your 100% in whatever you undertake.

So you have read the big four -- Epictetus, Musonius Rufus,
Marcus Aurelius (not a philosopher), and Seneca (not a
philosopher)? No, I do not believe fatalism/determinism is
postulated by all stoics, especially the Roman ones, who
concentrated on the practical, ethical aspect. The main
priciple, I am sure, is realising that man is in control of
his own perceptions and decisions, and cannot (entirely)
control externalities. This view does not require
determinism, does it?

> Sorry, I went off on a tangent.

Glad you did.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

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 by: D - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 11:31 UTC

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024, Anton Shepelev wrote:

> So you have read the big four -- Epictetus, Musonius Rufus,
> Marcus Aurelius (not a philosopher), and Seneca (not a
> philosopher)? No, I do not believe fatalism/determinism is
> postulated by all stoics, especially the Roman ones, who
> concentrated on the practical, ethical aspect. The main
> priciple, I am sure, is realising that man is in control of
> his own perceptions and decisions, and cannot (entirely)
> control externalities. This view does not require
> determinism, does it?

I agree. Determinism tends to lead to passivity and at worst collapse
into some kind of solipsism, if you really believe in it. The fact that
people argue that you still should give your best, paradoxically weakens
their position, since the act of arguing that is itself and argument
against determinism.

I have no read anything about determinism in the above, but I have read
about indifference, but in my opinion, that indifference in the classics
is not equivalent to determinism.

Best regards,
Daniel

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 by: D - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 11:48 UTC

And another thought... maybe this could be a good opportunity to revive
alt.philosophy.debate?

Best regards,
Daniel

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 by: Anton Shepelev - Wed, 17 Jan 2024 13:42 UTC

Anton Shepelev:
<20231230212158.f1195c840ef1abe60af9a4ee@gmail.moc>
Life is not an unstoppable cosmic force, but rather
something we humans forge for ourselves with our
decisions and actions.

cr0c0d1le:
As someone who practices Stoicism, I would say the
reverse is true. Fate is set in stone, but it doesn't
mean you shouldn't give your 100% in whatever you
undertake.

Anton Shepelev:
So you have read the big four -- Epictetus, Musonius
Rufus, Marcus Aurelius (not a philosopher), and Seneca
(not a philosopher)? No, I do not believe
fatalism/determinism is postulated by all stoics,
especially the Roman ones, who concentrated on the
practical, ethical aspect. The main priciple, I am sure,
is realising that man is in control of his own
perceptions and decisions, and cannot (entirely) control
externalities. This view does not require determinism,
does it?

D: I agree. Determinism tends to lead to passivity and at
worst collapse into some kind of solipsism, if you really
believe in it. The fact that people argue that you still
should give your best, paradoxically weakens their
position, since the act of arguing that is itself and
argument against determinism.

I have no read anything about determinism in the above,
but I have read about indifference, but in my opinion,
that indifference in the classics is not equivalent to
determinism.

And another thought... maybe this could be a good
opportunity to revive alt.philosophy.debate?

I don't think this is a subject for debate, but rather for
an easy conversation over tea. Redirected to alt.philosophy.

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