Getting back to VMS without black magic....

How does one get networking up on the Student System?
And, once one does, is DECWindows on there so that one can work
from a remote X-terminal?

bill

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 1:32:33 PM UTC, bill wrote:
> Getting back to VMS without black magic....
>
> How does one get networking up on the Student System?
> And, once one does, is DECWindows on there so that one can work
> from a remote X-terminal?
>
>
> bill

If this is the VSI Student system then you may get a better response on the VSI forums https://forum.vmssoftware.com/index.php

bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> Getting back to VMS without black magic....
>
> How does one get networking up on the Student System?

VSI put up a video on YouTube about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf53T7i8RGs

> And, once one does, is DECWindows on there so that one can work
> from a remote X-terminal?

Of course..

cu,
Martin

On 11/2/2023 12:56 PM, Martin Vorländer wrote:
> bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Getting back to VMS without black magic....
>>
>> How does one get networking up on the Student System?
>
> VSI put up a video on YouTube about this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf53T7i8RGs

Thank you. I am not a big YouTube fan (I leave that to my grandson!)
but I will take a look.

>
>> And, once one does, is DECWindows on there so that one can work
>> from a remote X-terminal?
>
> Of course..

And, thank you again.

bill

On 2023-11-02, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/2/2023 12:56 PM, Martin Vorländer wrote:
>> bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Getting back to VMS without black magic....
>>>
>>> How does one get networking up on the Student System?
>>
>> VSI put up a video on YouTube about this:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf53T7i8RGs
>
> Thank you. I am not a big YouTube fan (I leave that to my grandson!)
> but I will take a look.
>

Anyone want to guess how many adverts poor Bill will have to sit through ?

The number of unskippable adverts on Youtube has grown to insane levels.

>>
>>> And, once one does, is DECWindows on there so that one can work
>>> from a remote X-terminal?
>>
>> Of course..
>
> And, thank you again.
>

I don't know if you are still a xhost type person, but these days,
I use "ssh -X" exclusively when running X11 over the network.

I have no need to run X11 where VMS is involved however, so I don't
know if there are any VMS-specific problems with that approach.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

Simon Clubley wrote:

> Anyone want to guess how many adverts poor Bill will have to sit through ?
> The number of unskippable adverts on Youtube has grown to insane levels.

zero here ... I pay for google play music, so get advert-free youtube
included.

On 2023-11-02 19:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-11-02, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/2/2023 12:56 PM, Martin Vorländer wrote:
>>> bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Getting back to VMS without black magic....
>>>>
>>>> How does one get networking up on the Student System?
>>>
>>> VSI put up a video on YouTube about this:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf53T7i8RGs
>>
>> Thank you. I am not a big YouTube fan (I leave that to my grandson!)
>> but I will take a look.
>>
>
> Anyone want to guess how many adverts poor Bill will have to sit through ?
>
> The number of unskippable adverts on Youtube has grown to insane levels.

Agreed. It has become horrible.

>>>> And, once one does, is DECWindows on there so that one can work
>>>> from a remote X-terminal?
>>>
>>> Of course..
>>
>> And, thank you again.
>>
>
> I don't know if you are still a xhost type person, but these days,
> I use "ssh -X" exclusively when running X11 over the network.
>
> I have no need to run X11 where VMS is involved however, so I don't
> know if there are any VMS-specific problems with that approach.

You mean apart from the fact that it don't work? ;-)
This was discussed in a thread not long ago in this group (I think). I
know it was discussed somewhere at least. The problem is that the ssh
server in VMS don't know about such options, and don't hook up with X.

Johnny

On 02/11/2023 22:32, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-11-02 19:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
>> On 2023-11-02, bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/2/2023 12:56 PM, Martin Vorländer wrote:
>>>> bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Getting back to VMS without black magic....
>>>>>
>>>>> How does one get networking up on the Student System?
>>>>
>>>> VSI put up a video on YouTube about this:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf53T7i8RGs
>>>
>>> Thank you.  I am not a big YouTube fan (I leave that to  my grandson!)
>>> but I will take a look.
>>>
>>
>> Anyone want to guess how many adverts poor Bill will have to sit
>> through ?
>>
>> The number of unskippable adverts on Youtube has grown to insane levels.
>
> Agreed. It has become horrible.
>
>>>>> And, once one does, is DECWindows on there so that one can work
>>>>> from a remote X-terminal?
>>>>
>>>> Of course..
>>>
>>> And, thank you again.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know if you are still a xhost type person, but these days,
>> I use "ssh -X" exclusively when running X11 over the network.
>>
>> I have no need to run X11 where VMS is involved however, so I don't
>> know if there are any VMS-specific problems with that approach.
>
> You mean apart from the fact that it don't work? ;-)
> This was discussed in a thread not long ago in this group (I think). I
> know it was discussed somewhere at least. The problem is that the ssh
> server in VMS don't know about such options, and don't hook up with X.
>
>   Johnny
>

I don't recall seeing any intrusive adverts on YouTube

--
Chris

On 2023-11-02, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-11-02 19:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> I don't know if you are still a xhost type person, but these days,
>> I use "ssh -X" exclusively when running X11 over the network.
>>
>> I have no need to run X11 where VMS is involved however, so I don't
>> know if there are any VMS-specific problems with that approach.
>
> You mean apart from the fact that it don't work? ;-)
> This was discussed in a thread not long ago in this group (I think). I
> know it was discussed somewhere at least. The problem is that the ssh
> server in VMS don't know about such options, and don't hook up with X.
>

Yuck. :-( That I was not aware of and that's rather poor if you are correct.

Is it just UCX that doesn't work or is Multinet also lacking this support ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-11-02, Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don't recall seeing any intrusive adverts on YouTube
>

There are addons you can add to your own systems that you cannot add
to work systems. I assume you are using one of those (unless you are
paying for YT).

It's far worse than normal TV because they also kick in most times when
you start clicking on the timeline to look at other parts of the video.
This means you are continually subjected to multiple uninterruptable ads
while you are trying to work out whether the video is useful and whether
to watch the whole thing. :-(

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 11/3/2023 9:10 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-11-02, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2023-11-02 19:18, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know if you are still a xhost type person, but these days,
>>> I use "ssh -X" exclusively when running X11 over the network.
>>>
>>> I have no need to run X11 where VMS is involved however, so I don't
>>> know if there are any VMS-specific problems with that approach.
>>
>> You mean apart from the fact that it don't work? ;-)
>> This was discussed in a thread not long ago in this group (I think). I
>> know it was discussed somewhere at least. The problem is that the ssh
>> server in VMS don't know about such options, and don't hook up with X.
>>
>
> Yuck. :-( That I was not aware of and that's rather poor if you are correct.
>
> Is it just UCX that doesn't work or is Multinet also lacking this support ?

The VMS port by VSI of OpenSSH does not yet support X port forwarding.

It's coming soon.

--
-- Rob

In article <ui2rrr$2pmp3$2@dont-email.me>,
Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>On 2023-11-02, Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I don't recall seeing any intrusive adverts on YouTube
>
>There are addons you can add to your own systems that you cannot add
>to work systems. I assume you are using one of those (unless you are
>paying for YT).

Google maintains a profile of identifiable unique users. It includes
location information most of the time, and any accounts they can associate
with it. This profile is used to deliver ads to you that Youtube thinks
are relevant, and in this time of year in the US it includes a lot of
targetted political ads.

This also determines the volume of ads you get. If I watch a video on
one side of Virginia, I will get far fewer ads than someone watching
the same video on the other (richer) side of the state.

No two people get the same experience.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 2023-11-04, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <ui2rrr$2pmp3$2@dont-email.me>,
> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>On 2023-11-02, Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't recall seeing any intrusive adverts on YouTube
>>
>>There are addons you can add to your own systems that you cannot add
>>to work systems. I assume you are using one of those (unless you are
>>paying for YT).
>
> Google maintains a profile of identifiable unique users. It includes
> location information most of the time, and any accounts they can associate
> with it. This profile is used to deliver ads to you that Youtube thinks
> are relevant, and in this time of year in the US it includes a lot of
> targetted political ads.
>
> This also determines the volume of ads you get. If I watch a video on
> one side of Virginia, I will get far fewer ads than someone watching
> the same video on the other (richer) side of the state.
>
> No two people get the same experience.

I watch Youtube anonymously in private browsing mode, so there's no
browsing history for it to work with.

It's just the sheer quantity and the _same_ advert repeating multiple
times that is so annoying. Here is an example, found at random by searching
for North Yorkshire Moors walking videos on Google UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI5Ov-LRXXo

It's less than 10 minutes, but I still got the same immune support
medicine advert several times (followed by a random advert) while
clicking at several points in the video. :-(

I then picked another one from the results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj8gX8CiA9I

and got the _same_ bloody advert several times again for a video
under 15 minutes!!! I know I will now be unlikely to buy that product
if I ever need something like that in the future. :-)

(BTW, the video subject was picked to be inoffensive to _everyone_ :-))

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-11-06 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-11-04, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <ui2rrr$2pmp3$2@dont-email.me>,
>> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-02, Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't recall seeing any intrusive adverts on YouTube
>>>
>>> There are addons you can add to your own systems that you cannot add
>>> to work systems. I assume you are using one of those (unless you are
>>> paying for YT).
>>
>> Google maintains a profile of identifiable unique users. It includes
>> location information most of the time, and any accounts they can associate
>> with it. This profile is used to deliver ads to you that Youtube thinks
>> are relevant, and in this time of year in the US it includes a lot of
>> targetted political ads.
>>
>> This also determines the volume of ads you get. If I watch a video on
>> one side of Virginia, I will get far fewer ads than someone watching
>> the same video on the other (richer) side of the state.
>>
>> No two people get the same experience.
>
> I watch Youtube anonymously in private browsing mode, so there's no
> browsing history for it to work with.

While I'm sometimes surprised by the amount of belief people have in
what Google might be doing (it's sometimes pretty far from reality),
sometimes I get surprised in the other direction as well. Like now.
Browsing in anonymous mode is not as anonymous as you might think. There
is a lot of information that can be extracted out, which can still be
used to get some pretty good idea of tracking of users. Sure, it's less
precise than what can be done in non-anonymous mode, but it's far from zero.

Johnny

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 4:46:16 PM UTC, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
> > On 2023-11-04, Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> In article <ui2rrr$2pmp3$2...@dont-email.me>,
> >> Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
> >>> On 2023-11-02, Chris Townley <ne...@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't recall seeing any intrusive adverts on YouTube
> >>>
> >>> There are addons you can add to your own systems that you cannot add
> >>> to work systems. I assume you are using one of those (unless you are
> >>> paying for YT).
> >>
> >> Google maintains a profile of identifiable unique users. It includes
> >> location information most of the time, and any accounts they can associate
> >> with it. This profile is used to deliver ads to you that Youtube thinks
> >> are relevant, and in this time of year in the US it includes a lot of
> >> targetted political ads.
> >>
> >> This also determines the volume of ads you get. If I watch a video on
> >> one side of Virginia, I will get far fewer ads than someone watching
> >> the same video on the other (richer) side of the state.
> >>
> >> No two people get the same experience.
> >
> > I watch Youtube anonymously in private browsing mode, so there's no
> > browsing history for it to work with.
> While I'm sometimes surprised by the amount of belief people have in
> what Google might be doing (it's sometimes pretty far from reality),
> sometimes I get surprised in the other direction as well. Like now.
> Browsing in anonymous mode is not as anonymous as you might think. There
> is a lot of information that can be extracted out, which can still be
> used to get some pretty good idea of tracking of users. Sure, it's less
> precise than what can be done in non-anonymous mode, but it's far from zero.
>
> Johnny
Try Duckduckgo as an alternative to Google browsing: https://duckduckgo.com/spread

On 2023-11-07, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>> I watch Youtube anonymously in private browsing mode, so there's no
>> browsing history for it to work with.
>
> While I'm sometimes surprised by the amount of belief people have in
> what Google might be doing (it's sometimes pretty far from reality),
> sometimes I get surprised in the other direction as well. Like now.
> Browsing in anonymous mode is not as anonymous as you might think. There
> is a lot of information that can be extracted out, which can still be
> used to get some pretty good idea of tracking of users. Sure, it's less
> precise than what can be done in non-anonymous mode, but it's far from zero.
>

They can do loose association based on the IP address the request is
coming from (assuming CGNAT or similar is not in use).

They can do some generic browser fingerprinting (depending on what
Javascript you allow to run and on whether the browser is lying to the
website.)

They cannot get to information that exists in the browser outside of
the private session.

Is there something else they can get access to ?

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

On 2023-11-07 20:14, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2023-11-07, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 14:30, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>
>>> I watch Youtube anonymously in private browsing mode, so there's no
>>> browsing history for it to work with.
>>
>> While I'm sometimes surprised by the amount of belief people have in
>> what Google might be doing (it's sometimes pretty far from reality),
>> sometimes I get surprised in the other direction as well. Like now.
>> Browsing in anonymous mode is not as anonymous as you might think. There
>> is a lot of information that can be extracted out, which can still be
>> used to get some pretty good idea of tracking of users. Sure, it's less
>> precise than what can be done in non-anonymous mode, but it's far from zero.
>>
>
> They can do loose association based on the IP address the request is
> coming from (assuming CGNAT or similar is not in use).
>
> They can do some generic browser fingerprinting (depending on what
> Javascript you allow to run and on whether the browser is lying to the
> website.)
>
> They cannot get to information that exists in the browser outside of
> the private session.
>
> Is there something else they can get access to ?

There is a lot of fingerprinting going on. Even when you don't allow
javascript.

Johnny

> They can do some generic browser fingerprinting (depending on what
> Javascript you allow to run and on whether the browser is lying to the
> website.)

Blocking javascript dramatically reduces the risk surface, but these
days it breaks an awful lot of stuff. (I do it anyway.)

For your horrorification:

https://seon.io/resources/browser-fingerprinting/

De