On Saturday, November 18, 2023 at 6:12:51 AM UTC-5, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 17/11/2023 21:06, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > In article <20231117130709.1798...@eircom.net>,
> > Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >> On 17 Nov 2023 12:39:52 -0000
> >> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> >>
> >>> However, at some point the momentum built up until "Linux" as a concept
> >>> took off, and then everybody kind of forgot about GNU and the GNU
> >>> environment and philosophy... then they forgot about the Unix environment
> >>> and philosophy... now it is just a mess.
> >>
> >> I suspect that Richard Stallman trying to get everyone to call it
> >> GNU-Linux didn't help.
> >
> > No. In general, I think Stallman has done more harm than good to the
> > free software movement in recent years.
> > --scott
> >
> Politics and ideology are always the enemies of sound engineering.
>
> --
> It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
> for the voice of the kingdom.
>
> Jonathan Swift

Time for me to kick in my own thoughts on this topic:

E.O.Wilson once said: Humans have Paleolithic Emotions, Medieval Institutions, and God-Like Technology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s30m6Bpj2U

IMHO this explains a lot of stuff I see online, and off.

Neil Rieck
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
https://neilrieck.net

On 11/18/23 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
>> security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
>
> Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
>
> Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

But for HOW LONG if it uses insecure methods ? :-)

On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 23:15:11 -0500
"56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

> On 11/18/23 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
> > "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
> >> security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
> >
> > Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
> >
> > Revolut is one of the biggest banks.
>
>
> But for HOW LONG if it uses insecure methods ? :-)

They've been operating since 2015, had a data breach in 2022
resulting from a phishing attack which netted some personal data (about
5000 people) and a bug in their US payment system that let them (not their
customers) lose $20m. Note carefully that neither of these was an
infrastructure attack.

Pretty small potatoes compared to say the Capital One data breach
in 2019 that let 100 million credit card application details out or the JP
Morgan Chase data breach of 83 million accounts or the Experian breach of
24 million customer's personal details or the ransomware attack on the US
branch of ICBC (that's the world's biggest bank) or Flagstar bank which has
had three data breaches in the last two years or the IBM Moveit data breach
earlier this year that leaked medical records of 4.1 million people in
Colerado. It's even small compared to Bank of Ireland's 22 data breaches
over six months leaking personal data of over 50,000 customers.

I'd say the evidence is that their security stacks up pretty well.

As anyone involved professionally in data security (hint that
includes me) knows the vast majority of compromises these days result from
social engineering (various forms of phishing) not technical issues.

Peruse this https://tech.co/news/data-breaches-updated-list if you
don't believe me.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>> Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
>> security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
>
> Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
>
> Revolut is one of the biggest banks.

Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

But there are big banks using public cloud.

Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
HSBC - Amazon cloud
JP Morgan - multi cloud
Bank of America - IBM cloud
Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
UBS - Microsoft cloud

The US military also use public cloud. After spending
years on court room battles I believe DoD split the
contract between Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle.

Arne

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 16:33:38 -0500
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

> On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
> > "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
> >> Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
> >> security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
> >
> > Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
> >
> > Revolut is one of the biggest banks.
>
> Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.

Depends how you measure - by valuation ($33bn) it's bigger than
Deutsche Bank ($25bn).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 11/19/2023 5:47 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 16:33:38 -0500
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
>>> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>> Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
>>>> security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
>>>
>>> Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
>>>
>>> Revolut is one of the biggest banks.
>>
>> Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.
>
> Depends how you measure - by valuation ($33bn) it's bigger than
> Deutsche Bank ($25bn).

Usually the size of banks are measured by asset value.

The two numbers you provide are not fully comparable.

Revolut is a private company and the number was a valuation
done in March 2021 when getting new investors on board (a time
where fintech companies were valued very high).

The DB number is the actual market cap today.

Arne

On 19/11/2023 21:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
>> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>     Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
>>>     security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
>>
>>     Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
>>
>>     Revolut is one of the biggest banks.
>
> Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.
>
> But there are big banks using public cloud.
>
I find that frightening, irresponsible and yet strangely believable.

Big banks should be broken up. They have way too much power and take
fuck all responsibility.

> Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
> HSBC - Amazon cloud
> JP Morgan - multi cloud
> Bank of America - IBM cloud
> Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
> UBS - Microsoft cloud
>
> The US military also use public cloud. After spending
> years on court room battles I believe DoD split the
> contract between Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle.
>
> Arne
>

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 11/19/23 1:58 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 23:15:11 -0500
> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/18/23 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
>>> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
>>>> security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
>>>
>>> Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
>>>
>>> Revolut is one of the biggest banks.
>>
>>
>> But for HOW LONG if it uses insecure methods ? :-)
>
> They've been operating since 2015,

Many of the others since the 1800s :-)

> had a data breach in 2022
> resulting from a phishing attack which netted some personal data (about
> 5000 people) and a bug in their US payment system that let them (not their
> customers) lose $20m. Note carefully that neither of these was an
> infrastructure attack.

But a very relevant attack nevertheless. Doesn't matter
where you cast blame - damage done.

> Pretty small potatoes compared to say the Capital One data breach
> in 2019 that let 100 million credit card application details out or the JP
> Morgan Chase data breach of 83 million accounts or the Experian breach of
> 24 million customer's personal details or the ransomware attack on the US
> branch of ICBC (that's the world's biggest bank) or Flagstar bank which has
> had three data breaches in the last two years or the IBM Moveit data breach
> earlier this year that leaked medical records of 4.1 million people in
> Colerado. It's even small compared to Bank of Ireland's 22 data breaches
> over six months leaking personal data of over 50,000 customers.

The way modern biz/banking likes to do things, NONE of
your stuff is very "secure". Basically I don't *do*
online banking - and WILL change banks if that becomes
their only option.

And yes, banks WILL find a way to blame YOU for any
losses ..... can you afford to go up against their
lawyers ???

Should you put up with this shit ???

Hey, it's your MONEY/SAVINGS/FUTURE/SECURITY ... do
not go gently ........

> I'd say the evidence is that their security stacks up pretty well.

But only for a few years.

Wait until NK focuses ........

> As anyone involved professionally in data security (hint that
> includes me) knows the vast majority of compromises these days result from
> social engineering (various forms of phishing) not technical issues.

I agree. But MANY problems result from system-level
weaknesses too. You see it in the news almost weekly
now ... giant tech-biz, everything spilled.

Humans ARE the weakest link - fer sure - but not the
ONLY weakness. Alas those "other" weaknesses will be
able to do FAR more damage FAR more quickly.

> Peruse this https://tech.co/news/data-breaches-updated-list if you
> don't believe me.

Stats are fine, but look at the next/next-next lines
on the vulnerabilities list ....

I'm old-school, not a fool, I know how badly systems-level
issues can damage.

Things like Docker/Kubernetes are great - but DO remember
their vulnerabilities too. It's all well documented.

NK knows this stuff too.

On 11/19/23 7:09 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/11/2023 21:33, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 11/18/2023 3:01 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 01:16:41 -0500
>>> "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:
>>>>     Big banks/biz, govt/mil, need to err on the side of
>>>>     security. Google can err on the side of high-volume.
>>>
>>>     Read this https://cloud.google.com/customers/revolut/
>>>
>>>     Revolut is one of the biggest banks.
>>
>> Revolut is not a big bank. It is a pretty small bank.
>>
>> But there are big banks using public cloud.
>>
> I find that frightening, irresponsible and yet strangely believable.
>
> Big banks should be broken up. They have way too much power and take
> fuck all responsibility.

Ummmm ... not necessarily "broken up" - "Big Banks"
have a very useful place/function. They are fiscal
"glue".

However they SHOULD be liable for the results of
using CRAP methods/security. They CAN do better,
but will need to be FORCED into it.

>> Deutsche Bank - Google cloud
>> HSBC - Amazon cloud
>> JP Morgan - multi cloud
>> Bank of America - IBM cloud
>> Goldman Sachs - Amazon cloud
>> UBS - Microsoft cloud
>>
>> The US military also use public cloud. After spending
>> years on court room battles I believe DoD split the
>> contract between Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Oracle.

Anyone who uses "public cloud" and even IMAGINES that
it's good/secure should be BADLY, BROADLY, sued.

No BS ... lay into them !