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computers / comp.mobile.android / Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

SubjectAuthor
* re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovVanguardLH
|`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
| `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   |    `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | |||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | || `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||  +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexKen Olson
|  | | ||   |    | |+* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    | ||`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   |    | |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |    | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | ||   |    |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it soLewis
|  | | ||   |    |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||   |      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | ||   |       `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |        `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | | ||   |         `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |          `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |           `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |            `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | ||   |             `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAJL
|  | | ||   |              `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexThe Real Bev
|  | | ||   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | ||      `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | | ||       `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | | | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | | |   `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |  | +- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |  |  `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |  |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  | |  |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covnospam
|  | |  |   |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |  |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |  |     |`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |+- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexMichael Trew
|  | |   | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | |   |    |`* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   |    | `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |   |     `- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |   `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |    `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexXeno
|  | |     +* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexAlan
|  | |     `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
|  | `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complexsms
|  `* Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli
`- Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add CovAndy Burnelli

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Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4kojh$t40$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31423&group=comp.mobile.android#31423

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 18:43:12 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 01:43 UTC

On 2022-04-30 6:27 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 8:33 am, WaltS48 wrote:
>> On 4/30/2022 11:12 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>> More to the point, only people with abnormally low IQ fall for
>>>> paying extra
>>>> for air that has a visible green cap but which has no practical value.
>>>
>>> For what its worth, using nitrogen in tyres is just another way to
>>> suck people into a *regular subscription payment* when they top up
>>> their tyres.
>>
>> It doesn't help the tires but it helps the tire provider's bottom
>> line, or
>> they wouldn't bother to do it.
>>
>> BTW, what did you think about the claim from somebody that steep twisty
>> mountain driving doesn't wear tires any more than driving on flat roads
>> does?
>
> The camber gain from KPI/SAI will always wear tyres more on the outside
> edge during high or full lock turns. Mountain driving, with sharp
> hairpin bends, will guarantee it. Even in normal city street driving,
> camber gain will be prevalent and worse on the nearside tyre. If you
> have a comprehensive understanding of steering and suspension design,
> then it is quite an easy thing to visualise. Weber Auto, on You Tube,
> did something on steering some time back and, IIRC, they explained the
> aspect of KPI/SAI that causes the issue. It is not a well understood
> issue, even in the trade, but is *one* of the reasons tyre rotation is
> essential. Just turn your steering to full lock and look at the camber
> angle of the *inside* wheel - camber gain will be very evident. The
> effect is worse if the vehicle has wider low profile tyres.
>

Just a little follow up:

'If we now compare the effects in Figs. 7.16 and 7.17, we can see that
if kingpin is introduced first, undesirable positive camber results from
steering but if castor is then added in, negative camber is introduced.
By including both camber and castor, the designer can have the benefits
of kingpin inclination but offset the disadvantageous camber gain. For
this reason, it is common to introduce approximately equal amounts of both.'

<https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/kingpins>

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jd688cF368iU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31424&group=comp.mobile.android#31424

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 12:06:02 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t4ke3f$1s7qu$1@paganini.bofh.team>
 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 02:06 UTC

On 1/5/2022 8:44 am, Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:30:43 PM, Xeno wrote:
>
>>> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside tire...
>>>
>>> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
>>> tires when turning)...
>>
>> Nothing to do with load transfer. Effect occurs even at low speeds.
>
> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?

Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical speeds
where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI plus
Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
McPherson Struts.
>
>>> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
>>> probably still have negative camber.
>>
>> Think about KPI/SAI and its effect on camber in turns. You are only
>> thinking of camber gain in bump and/or rebound.
>
> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber

The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.

> increases with increasing steering input at any speed or inclination, do
> you think a slight decrease in positive caster might lessen the inevitable
> camber scrub effect on the outside edge of the inside front tire on tight
> turns?

What you need to be aware of is that when you change the camber angle,
you have made no change to the *included angle*, that is designed in and
cannot be altered. So, if you reduce the camber, you will be
*increasing* the KPI/SAI which will, in turn, worsen the effect of
camber gain and, likely, negatively affect handling *stability*. It is
not wise to make changes to suspensions away from OEM specs unless you
know and understand the cumulative and compounding effects these changes
will have in other areas, the change to camber affecting KPI/SAI being
the perfect case in point.
>
> Would the drawback be decreased stability on the bumpy level straights?

It is quite possible but it would be hard to say given all manufacturers
use different suspensions each with compromises in different places.
Generally, any change from manufacturers specifications risks a
disruptive change in handling characteristics. My own take, I would say
yes.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4krv5$nrb$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=31425&group=comp.mobile.android#31425

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From: sch...@invalid.net (WaltS48)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:40:56 -0300
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t4krv5$nrb$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: WaltS48 - Sun, 1 May 2022 02:40 UTC

On 5/1/2022 2:27 AM, Xeno wrote:
> The camber gain from KPI/SAI will always wear tyres more on the outside
> edge during high or full lock turns. Mountain driving, with sharp
> hairpin bends, will guarantee it. Even in normal city street driving,
> camber gain will be prevalent and worse on the nearside tyre. If you
> have a comprehensive understanding of steering and suspension design,
> then it is quite an easy thing to visualise. Weber Auto, on You Tube,
> did something on steering some time back and, IIRC, they explained the
> aspect of KPI/SAI that causes the issue. It is not a well understood
> issue, even in the trade, but is *one* of the reasons tyre rotation is
> essential. Just turn your steering to full lock and look at the camber
> angle of the *inside* wheel - camber gain will be very evident. The
> effect is worse if the vehicle has wider low profile tyres.

That's a nice summary.

I looked for the youtube you speak of but it's not one of these.

Weber Automotive Tire Care & Wheel Alignment
https://youtu.be/pUp8sJWeHE4

The Importance of Car Alignments | Weber Automotive
https://youtu.be/VqFyOlSdiik

Weber Automotive What is a Steering System and Why is it Important?
https://youtu.be/ztK5NPhNbOc

Maybe this one?

The Importance of Vehicle Suspension | Weber Automotive
https://youtu.be/VdUzoEbj8ww

The graphics are beautiful but they are too light on the detail.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jd6aa5F3ib1U1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 12:41:06 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 02:41 UTC

On 1/5/2022 9:41 am, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 4:37 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 1:25:14 AM, Alan wrote:
>>
>>>> It's in the explanation already provided. You missed it. Try again.
>>>
>>> No. It isn't, so I couldn't miss it.
>>>
>>> But if you think the explanation is in anything provided so far...
>>>
>>> ...just quote it and provide the reference.
>>
>> How could you keep missing the answer when it was explained to you
>> multiple
>> times by multiple people?
>
> How is it that you can't quote where it was explained?
>
>>
>> It was explained to you by someone else already and it's in the
>> explanation
>> of front tire wear on the outside edges that you already were to have
>> read.
>> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>>
>>
>> "When the camber setting becomes positive, the wheel tilts, putting more
>> pressure on the outside shoulder of its tire. Over time, as rubber scrubs
>> off faster on the one edge, the tire develops uneven wear."
>
> But the inside tire in a corner goes into NEGATIVE camber; both from the
> roll of the vehicle to the outside AND because of the suspension moving
> into droop.
>
Beg to differ, the inside wheel camber tends to go more positive in a
turn thus increasing camber gain. Just turn your wheels hard in one
direction whilst parked and you can see that effect. The effect will be
less on the *outside wheel*. You are thinking of higher speeds where
body roll becomes significant but sharp turns aren't possible at such
speeds and it is the slow speed sharp turns where camber gain becomes a
significant issue in tyre wear on the nearside wheel.
>>
>> I'm done with wasting my time with you if you can't get it after being
>> told
>> three or four times.
>
> I hate to pull an Arlen here, but should I collect up all the books I've
> read on vehicle dynamics?

I could do the same but I rely more on the fact that I am a motor
mechanic by trade, done more wheel alignments and steering repairs than
I care to remember, and taught steering and suspensions at a college for
20 years in the 80s and 90s.

FWIW, good texts on the topic are these;

Steering Handbook - Springer
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-05449-0

Chassis Handbook - Springer
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-8348-9789-3

I have both of the above texts, just wish they had been available when I
was teaching the topic - very comprehensive. I also wish I had completed
a mechanical engineering diploma I commenced in the 90s but work and
family pressures put paid to that. Bit off more than I could chew! :-(

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 03:50:11 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sun, 1 May 2022 02:50 UTC

Xeno wrote:

> I could do the same but I rely more on the fact that I am a motor
> mechanic by trade, done more wheel alignments and steering repairs than
> I care to remember, and taught steering and suspensions at a college for
> 20 years in the 80s and 90s.

Before you waste too much time on Alan Baker, he's a moron. He has an IQ of
about 40 and, worse, he loves to disagree with _anything_ you can claim.

You can reference any number of links and he won't even _read_ them before
denying that they say what they say. Then he'll find some random link that
has a couple of the keywords, and he'll paste that verbatim, as if he wrote
it.

In short, the Alan Baker you're dealing with is a moron.
Everyone on the smartphone newsgroups already has him plonked.

Just so you know.
--
Usenet is where friendly people daily gather to discuss topics of interest.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 19:53:25 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 02:53 UTC

On 2022-04-30 7:06 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 8:44 am, Thomas wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:30:43 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>> ...but they won't cause it on the outside edge of the front inside
>>>> tire...
>>>>
>>>> ...as that tire is only lightly loaded (load transfers to the outside
>>>> tires when turning)...
>>>
>>> Nothing to do with load transfer. Effect occurs even at low speeds.
>>
>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>
> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical speeds
> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI plus
> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
> McPherson Struts.
>>>> If it rolls to the outside as a car ACTUALLY DOES, then the tire will
>>>> probably still have negative camber.
>>>
>>> Think about KPI/SAI and its effect on camber in turns. You are only
>>> thinking of camber gain in bump and/or rebound.
>>
>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>
> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.

Wrong.

As I have already shown you.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: sch...@invalid.net (WaltS48)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 00:05:21 -0300
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 by: WaltS48 - Sun, 1 May 2022 03:05 UTC

On 5/1/2022 2:40 AM, Alan wrote:
> And you have it backwards.

The wear on twisty roads is to the outside edge of the front tires,
specifically due to increased positive camber on the inside front tire.

This increased positive camber on turns causes uneven tire wear on the
outside edge of the inside tire even on a properly aligned vehicle.

Read this.
https://www.quora.com/When-turning-I-see-there-is-a-plus-camber-in-a-vehicle-Why

"On most modern cars, when a wheel is turned with considerable lock, the
inner wheel takes on a positive camber. The KPI establishes something
called the scrub radius. The combination of these various angles affects
the wheel camber when steered. The inner wheel in a turn takes on positive
camber because the steering pivot is angled. By the same token, the outer
wheel takes on more negative camber."

The thrust force reality gets even more complicated when you read further.

"What appears to be positive camber is actually negative camber with
respect to the turning force. So it only looks like positive camber - in
fact it's really negative camber, because it's the inner edge of the wheel
that is leading in a turn."

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: canope...@gmail.com (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
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 by: Thomas - Sun, 1 May 2022 03:16 UTC

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:41:06 PM, Xeno wrote:

> Beg to differ, the inside wheel camber tends to go more positive in a
> turn thus increasing camber gain. Just turn your wheels hard in one
> direction whilst parked and you can see that effect. The effect will be
> less on the *outside wheel*.

This is a photo of the added positive camber on the inside front wheel that
you are explaining happens during a slow speed sharp turn almost to lock.
https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg

That's from this discussion.
https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:28:41 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 03:28 UTC

On 2022-04-30 7:41 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 9:41 am, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-04-30 4:37 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>>> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 1:25:14 AM, Alan wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's in the explanation already provided. You missed it. Try again.
>>>>
>>>> No. It isn't, so I couldn't miss it.
>>>>
>>>> But if you think the explanation is in anything provided so far...
>>>>
>>>> ...just quote it and provide the reference.
>>>
>>> How could you keep missing the answer when it was explained to you
>>> multiple
>>> times by multiple people?
>>
>> How is it that you can't quote where it was explained?
>>
>>>
>>> It was explained to you by someone else already and it's in the
>>> explanation
>>> of front tire wear on the outside edges that you already were to have
>>> read.
>>> https://www.utires.com/articles/front-tires-wear-outside-edge-causes-solutions/
>>>
>>>
>>> "When the camber setting becomes positive, the wheel tilts, putting more
>>> pressure on the outside shoulder of its tire. Over time, as rubber
>>> scrubs
>>> off faster on the one edge, the tire develops uneven wear."
>>
>> But the inside tire in a corner goes into NEGATIVE camber; both from
>> the roll of the vehicle to the outside AND because of the suspension
>> moving into droop.
>>
> Beg to differ, the inside wheel camber tends to go more positive in a
> turn thus increasing camber gain. Just turn your wheels hard in one
> direction whilst parked and you can see that effect. The effect will be
> less on the *outside wheel*. You are thinking of higher speeds where
> body roll becomes significant but sharp turns aren't possible at such
> speeds and it is the slow speed sharp turns where camber gain becomes a
> significant issue in tyre wear on the nearside wheel.

You can beg all you want.

Does caster add camber when a wheel is steered outward (left for a right
wheel)? Yes.

Does king pin inclination oppose that change? Yup.

>>>
>>> I'm done with wasting my time with you if you can't get it after
>>> being told
>>> three or four times.
>>
>> I hate to pull an Arlen here, but should I collect up all the books
>> I've read on vehicle dynamics?
>
> I could do the same but I rely more on the fact that I am a motor
> mechanic by trade, done more wheel alignments and steering repairs than
> I care to remember, and taught steering and suspensions at a college for
> 20 years in the 80s and 90s.
>
> FWIW, good texts on the topic are these;
>
> Steering Handbook - Springer
> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-05449-0
>
> Chassis Handbook - Springer
> https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-8348-9789-3
>
> I have both of the above texts, just wish they had been available when I
> was teaching the topic - very comprehensive. I also wish I had completed
> a mechanical engineering diploma I commenced in the 90s but work and
> family pressures put paid to that. Bit off more than I could chew!  :-(
>

Clearly...

....because you've definitely not figured out that KPI acts to reduce camber.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:30:48 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 03:30 UTC

On 2022-04-30 8:16 p.m., Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:41:06 PM, Xeno wrote:
>
>> Beg to differ, the inside wheel camber tends to go more positive in a
>> turn thus increasing camber gain. Just turn your wheels hard in one
>> direction whilst parked and you can see that effect. The effect will be
>> less on the *outside wheel*.
>
> This is a photo of the added positive camber on the inside front wheel that
> you are explaining happens during a slow speed sharp turn almost to lock.
> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg

Yes: that wheel is in SLIGHTLY positive camber...

....when standing still.

Now: what happens when the vehicle is moving?

Are you capable of examining that question quantitatively?

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Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:44:33 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 03:44 UTC

On 2022-04-30 8:05 p.m., WaltS48 wrote:
> On 5/1/2022 2:40 AM, Alan wrote:
>> And you have it backwards.
>
> The wear on twisty roads is to the outside edge of the front tires,
> specifically due to increased positive camber on the inside front tire.
>
> This increased positive camber on turns causes uneven tire wear on the
> outside edge of the inside tire even on a properly aligned vehicle.
>
> Read this.
> https://www.quora.com/When-turning-I-see-there-is-a-plus-camber-in-a-vehicle-Why
>
>
> "On most modern cars, when a wheel is turned with considerable lock, the
> inner wheel takes on a positive camber.

The inner wheel has camber gain from positive caster. No one is
disputing that.

> The KPI establishes something
> called the scrub radius.

Sorry, but that is completely wrong.

> The combination of these various angles affects
> the wheel camber when steered.

That's true but not helpful, because it fails to mention that normal
king pin inclination acts to cause camber loss and thus opposes the
effect of positive caster on the inside wheel of a turn.

> The inner wheel in a turn takes on positive
> camber because the steering pivot is angled. By the same token, the outer
> wheel takes on more negative camber."

Because caster and KPI combine to BOTH influence camber to the negative.

>
> The thrust force reality gets even more complicated when you read further.

"The thrust force reality"?

Do you have the slightest idea that you're talking gibberish?

>
> "What appears to be positive camber is actually negative camber with
> respect to the turning force. So it only looks like positive camber - in
> fact it's really negative camber, because it's the inner edge of the wheel
> that is leading in a turn."

That almost makes sense...

....but then you didn't write it.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

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From: canope...@gmail.com (Thomas)
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Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:45:41 -0700
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 by: Thomas - Sun, 1 May 2022 03:45 UTC

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:

>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>
> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical speeds
> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI plus
> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
> McPherson Struts.

Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a tight turn
goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the process of
negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.

Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of the turn.
https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg

That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning effort).
https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/

>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>
> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.

Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly aligned
vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on the
inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.

Is that your understanding of the net result on premature tire wear as a
result of the suspension geometry changes if a vehicle negotiates hundreds
of slow speed tight turns daily?

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 20:47:21 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 03:47 UTC

On 2022-04-30 8:45 p.m., Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:
>
>>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
>>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
>>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>>
>> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical speeds
>> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
>> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI plus
>> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
>> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
>> McPherson Struts.
>
> Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a tight turn
> goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
> positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the process of
> negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.

But not nearly enough to cause significant tire wear.

Remember: most of the time, the tire is running in a straight line.

>
> Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of the turn.
> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>
> That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning effort).
> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>
>>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>>
>> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
>> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.
>
> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly aligned
> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on the
> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.
>

KPI opposes camber change on the inside wheel of a turn.

Caster is driving it positive: KPI is driving it negative.

And vehicle roll is driving it negative.

> Is that your understanding of the net result on premature tire wear as a
> result of the suspension geometry changes if a vehicle negotiates hundreds
> of slow speed tight turns daily?

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 14:31:20 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 04:31 UTC

On 1/5/2022 12:40 pm, WaltS48 wrote:
> On 5/1/2022 2:27 AM, Xeno wrote:
>> The camber gain from KPI/SAI will always wear tyres more on the
>> outside edge during high or full lock turns. Mountain driving, with
>> sharp hairpin bends, will guarantee it. Even in normal city street
>> driving, camber gain will be prevalent and worse on the nearside tyre.
>> If you have a comprehensive understanding of steering and suspension
>> design, then it is quite an easy thing to visualise. Weber Auto, on
>> You Tube, did something on steering some time back and, IIRC, they
>> explained the aspect of KPI/SAI that causes the issue. It is not a
>> well understood issue, even in the trade, but is *one* of the reasons
>> tyre rotation is essential. Just turn your steering to full lock and
>> look at the camber angle of the *inside* wheel - camber gain will be
>> very evident. The effect is worse if the vehicle has wider low profile
>> tyres.
>
> That's a nice summary.
>
> I looked for the youtube you speak of but it's not one of these.
>
> Weber Automotive Tire Care & Wheel Alignment
> https://youtu.be/pUp8sJWeHE4
>
> The Importance of Car Alignments | Weber Automotive
> https://youtu.be/VqFyOlSdiik
>
> Weber Automotive What is a Steering System and Why is it Important?
> https://youtu.be/ztK5NPhNbOc
>
> Maybe this one?

It was, I think, this Weber Auto Youtube Channel;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKfTe2WSAMc

It might not have been, was quite a while back and I have watched a lot
of videos in the intervening period. It was a *classroom situation* and
utilised a strut/knuckle assembly mounted in a vise and used to
demonstrate the camber gain when the wheel is turned to the lock, the
stub axle point further downward as the steering is swung away from
centre. It clearly shows the *lifting* of the vehicle which provides the
majority of the self centering of the steering, especially on cars with
a forward weight bias, ie. FWD.
>
> The Importance of Vehicle Suspension | Weber Automotive
> https://youtu.be/VdUzoEbj8ww
>
> The graphics are beautiful but they are too light on the detail.

Yeah, not much available on the net that adequately explains it all.

Even though I retired from teaching the topic at college level some 20
years ago, I still retain an interest in education hence scan videos
looking for good teaching material. John Kelly at WeberAuto YouTube
Channel is a good source of inspiration. I can just imagine the
preparation and planning he has put into his videos, after all, used to
do it myself. Back then, in the 80s and early 90s, I was heavily into
computer animation for educational purposes. Of course, that has all
been eclipsed by the numerous advances and developments in computers
since then. An example of my early graphics animation attempts;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9LEu6ClKS4

It was originally a slide tape program and my intention was to convert
it to live interactive video for use in CBT. It also needed rescripting
because there are a few logic errors/omissions in the original script
which annoyed me no end. I was in the process of rescripting it when
illness enforced my early retirement. Someone else took up the baton and
created a youtube video but didn't alter the original script, they just
used the slide tape audio direct. Most annoying. I still have all the
original animation masters archived here - somewhere.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jd6h33F4o5kU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 14:36:49 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t4kvoj$1up3s$1@paganini.bofh.team>
 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 04:36 UTC

On 1/5/2022 1:45 pm, Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:
>
>>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
>>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
>>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>>
>> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical speeds
>> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
>> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI plus
>> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
>> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
>> McPherson Struts.
>
> Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a tight turn
> goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
> positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the process of
> negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.
>
> Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of the turn.
> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>
> That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning effort).
> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>
>>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>>
>> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
>> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.
>
> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly aligned
> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on the
> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.
>
> Is that your understanding of the net result on premature tire wear as a
> result of the suspension geometry changes if a vehicle negotiates hundreds
> of slow speed tight turns daily?

Yes, my understanding precisely. And my car has to negotiate a lot of
such tight turns on a daily basis, tighter to the left because we are in
RHD country, on the right for LHD country. That's why I use the terms;
nearside and offside rather than left side and right side. Anyway, the
outside of my left front tyre is always rearing the most, that's why I
need to rotate tyres regularly.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jd6h5nF4o5kU2@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 14:38:15 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t4kvs9$7b4$2@dont-email.me>
 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 04:38 UTC

On 1/5/2022 1:47 pm, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 8:45 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>
>>>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn have a
>>>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based scrub
>>>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>>>
>>> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical speeds
>>> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
>>> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI plus
>>> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
>>> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
>>> McPherson Struts.
>>
>> Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a tight
>> turn
>> goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
>> positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the process of
>> negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.
>
> But not nearly enough to cause significant tire wear.
>
> Remember: most of the time, the tire is running in a straight line.
>
>>
>> Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of the
>> turn.
>> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>>
>> That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning effort).
>> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>>
>>
>>>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>>>
>>> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
>>> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.
>>
>> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly
>> aligned
>> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on the
>> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.
>>
>
> KPI opposes camber change on the inside wheel of a turn.

KPI creates a positive camber change.
>
> Caster is driving it positive: KPI is driving it negative.
>
> And vehicle roll is driving it negative.
>
>> Is that your understanding of the net result on premature tire wear as a
>> result of the suspension geometry changes if a vehicle negotiates
>> hundreds
>> of slow speed tight turns daily?
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jd6h6uF4o5sU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 14:38:54 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t4ku1g$1uhih$1@paganini.bofh.team>
 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 04:38 UTC

On 1/5/2022 1:16 pm, Thomas wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:41:06 PM, Xeno wrote:
>
>> Beg to differ, the inside wheel camber tends to go more positive in a
>> turn thus increasing camber gain. Just turn your wheels hard in one
>> direction whilst parked and you can see that effect. The effect will be
>> less on the *outside wheel*.
>
> This is a photo of the added positive camber on the inside front wheel that
> you are explaining happens during a slow speed sharp turn almost to lock.
> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>
> That's from this discussion.
> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/

Misses the point of KPI/SAI. This video clip doesn't;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcZ63unEyU

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4l5b9$6ei$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 22:20:41 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 05:20 UTC

On 2022-04-30 9:38 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 1:47 pm, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-04-30 8:45 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn
>>>>> have a
>>>>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based
>>>>> scrub
>>>>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>>>>
>>>> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical
>>>> speeds
>>>> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
>>>> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI plus
>>>> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
>>>> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
>>>> McPherson Struts.
>>>
>>> Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a tight
>>> turn
>>> goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
>>> positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the process of
>>> negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.
>>
>> But not nearly enough to cause significant tire wear.
>>
>> Remember: most of the time, the tire is running in a straight line.
>>
>>>
>>> Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of the
>>> turn.
>>> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>>>
>>> That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning
>>> effort).
>>> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>>>>
>>>> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
>>>> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.
>>>
>>> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly
>>> aligned
>>> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on the
>>> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.
>>>
>>
>> KPI opposes camber change on the inside wheel of a turn.
>
> KPI creates a positive camber change.

In correct.

Draw a diagram of a steering axis with normal,
closer-to-the-the-vehicle-centre-at-the-top KPI and no caster at all.

Whichever direction you move the steering will cause the stub axle to
point downward.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4l5f0$6ei$2@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 22:22:40 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 05:22 UTC

On 2022-04-30 9:38 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 1:16 pm, Thomas wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:41:06 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>
>>> Beg to differ, the inside wheel camber tends to go more positive in a
>>> turn thus increasing camber gain. Just turn your wheels hard in one
>>> direction whilst parked and you can see that effect. The effect will be
>>> less on the *outside wheel*.
>>
>> This is a photo of the added positive camber on the inside front wheel
>> that
>> you are explaining happens during a slow speed sharp turn almost to lock.
>> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>>
>> That's from this discussion.
>> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>>
>
> Misses the point of KPI/SAI. This video clip doesn't;
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcZ63unEyU
>

Wow.

That video gets so much wrong.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4l76j$1vqmf$1@paganini.bofh.team>

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From: canope...@gmail.com (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 22:52:38 -0700
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 by: Thomas - Sun, 1 May 2022 05:52 UTC

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 9:36:49 PM, Xeno wrote:

>> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly aligned
>> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on the
>> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.
>>
>> Is that your understanding of the net result on premature tire wear as a
>> result of the suspension geometry changes if a vehicle negotiates hundreds
>> of slow speed tight turns daily?
>
> Yes, my understanding precisely. And my car has to negotiate a lot of
> such tight turns on a daily basis, tighter to the left because we are in
> RHD country, on the right for LHD country. That's why I use the terms;
> nearside and offside rather than left side and right side. Anyway, the
> outside of my left front tyre is always rearing the most, that's why I
> need to rotate tyres regularly.

Moving forward on that topic, I thank you for giving a rationale why it's
the nearside tire that wears its outside edge the most on twisty roads.

One confusion I still have is about the magnitude of the wear between the
nearside tire outside edge and the farside tire inside edge on a lock turn.

Knowing that the farside camber goes from negative to more negative, and
the nearside camber goes from negative to positive, aren't both tires at an
'extreme' camber when at the middle of the sharp curve?

If the magnitude of the farside negative camber was the same as the
magnitude of the nearside positive camber on those turns, wouldn't the wear
equal out over time given we can assume about equal number of left turns as
right turns?

I suspect that the magnitude of the positive camber on the nearside tire is
GREATER than the magnitude of the negative camber on the farside tire.

Is that the case?

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jd6mqjF5nk1U1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 16:14:40 +1000
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 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 06:14 UTC

On 1/5/2022 3:20 pm, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 9:38 p.m., Xeno wrote:
>> On 1/5/2022 1:47 pm, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-30 8:45 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based
>>>>>> scrub
>>>>>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>>>>>
>>>>> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical
>>>>> speeds
>>>>> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
>>>>> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI
>>>>> plus
>>>>> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
>>>>> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
>>>>> McPherson Struts.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a
>>>> tight turn
>>>> goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
>>>> positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the
>>>> process of
>>>> negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.
>>>
>>> But not nearly enough to cause significant tire wear.
>>>
>>> Remember: most of the time, the tire is running in a straight line.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of
>>>> the turn.
>>>> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>>>>
>>>> That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning
>>>> effort).
>>>> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>>>>>
>>>>> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as it is
>>>>> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster angle*.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly
>>>> aligned
>>>> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on the
>>>> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.
>>>>
>>>
>>> KPI opposes camber change on the inside wheel of a turn.
>>
>> KPI creates a positive camber change.
>
> In correct.
>
> Draw a diagram of a steering axis with normal,
> closer-to-the-the-vehicle-centre-at-the-top KPI and no caster at all.
>
> Whichever direction you move the steering will cause the stub axle to
> point downward.

And, in so doing, increases camber to the positive. And you can *see*
this effect just by turning the steering to either lock! Well done,
you're learning something. Keep at it, you'll get there - eventually.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4lafp$5r2$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 23:48:25 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sun, 1 May 2022 06:48 UTC

On 2022-04-30 11:14 p.m., Xeno wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 3:20 pm, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-04-30 9:38 p.m., Xeno wrote:
>>> On 1/5/2022 1:47 pm, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2022-04-30 8:45 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn
>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber based
>>>>>>> scrub
>>>>>>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical
>>>>>> speeds
>>>>>> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
>>>>>> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of KPI/SAI
>>>>>> plus
>>>>>> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
>>>>>> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
>>>>>> McPherson Struts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a
>>>>> tight turn
>>>>> goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
>>>>> positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the
>>>>> process of
>>>>> negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.
>>>>
>>>> But not nearly enough to cause significant tire wear.
>>>>
>>>> Remember: most of the time, the tire is running in a straight line.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of
>>>>> the turn.
>>>>> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning
>>>>> effort).
>>>>> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as
>>>>>> it is
>>>>>> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster
>>>>>> angle*.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly
>>>>> aligned
>>>>> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire on
>>>>> the
>>>>> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight turns.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> KPI opposes camber change on the inside wheel of a turn.
>>>
>>> KPI creates a positive camber change.
>>
>> In correct.
>>
>> Draw a diagram of a steering axis with normal,
>> closer-to-the-the-vehicle-centre-at-the-top KPI and no caster at all.
>>
>> Whichever direction you move the steering will cause the stub axle to
>> point downward.
>
> And, in so doing, increases camber to the positive. And you can *see*
> this effect just by turning the steering to either lock!  Well done,
> you're learning something. Keep at it, you'll get there - eventually.

No! KPI makes camber go into the NEGATIVE.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<jd6qroF6fpqU1@mid.individual.net>

 copy mid

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From: xenol...@optusnet.com.au (Xeno)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech,misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Sun, 1 May 2022 17:23:33 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <t4lafp$5r2$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Xeno - Sun, 1 May 2022 07:23 UTC

On 1/5/2022 4:48 pm, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 11:14 p.m., Xeno wrote:
>> On 1/5/2022 3:20 pm, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-30 9:38 p.m., Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 1/5/2022 1:47 pm, Alan wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-30 8:45 p.m., Thomas wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 7:06:02 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does weight transfer to the front tires on a steep downhill turn
>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>> compounding wear effect over and above the increased camber
>>>>>>>> based scrub
>>>>>>>> radius on the inside tire outside edge on those tight turns?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Technically, it should *reduce* the effect but, given the typical
>>>>>>> speeds
>>>>>>> where the tight turns are made, weight transfer will be minimal.
>>>>>>> Besides, the effect of camber gain from the combination of
>>>>>>> KPI/SAI plus
>>>>>>> Caster will far outweigh any camber gain from suspension bump or
>>>>>>> rebound, especially in the case of vertical guide suspensions like
>>>>>>> McPherson Struts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for that helpful clarification. The inside wheel on a
>>>>>> tight turn
>>>>>> goes from negative camber of a degree or half degree or whatever to
>>>>>> positive camber of a degree or half degree or whatever in the
>>>>>> process of
>>>>>> negotiating that slow tight turn, which is a huge change in camber.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not nearly enough to cause significant tire wear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember: most of the time, the tire is running in a straight line.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is a photo of that positive camber position in the middle of
>>>>>> the turn.
>>>>>> https://carfromjapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/2-4-1024x683.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's from this discussion (on how the geometry affects turning
>>>>>> effort).
>>>>>> https://carfromjapan.com/article/driving-tips/steering-wheel-returns-to-center-after-turn/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since kingpin angle (like castor angle) contributes to wheel camber
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The greatest effect comes from *King Pin Inclination*, or SAI as
>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>> known these days, but that effect is compounded by the *caster
>>>>>>> angle*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. The geometries all tie in together such that even a perfectly
>>>>>> aligned
>>>>>> vehicle will prematurely wear the outside edge of the front tire
>>>>>> on the
>>>>>> inside of a curve if they frequently negotiate slow speed tight
>>>>>> turns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> KPI opposes camber change on the inside wheel of a turn.
>>>>
>>>> KPI creates a positive camber change.
>>>
>>> In correct.
>>>
>>> Draw a diagram of a steering axis with normal,
>>> closer-to-the-the-vehicle-centre-at-the-top KPI and no caster at all.
>>>
>>> Whichever direction you move the steering will cause the stub axle to
>>> point downward.
>>
>> And, in so doing, increases camber to the positive. And you can *see*
>> this effect just by turning the steering to either lock!  Well done,
>> you're learning something. Keep at it, you'll get there - eventually.
>
> No! KPI makes camber go into the NEGATIVE.

Oh dear, and I thought we were getting somewhere with your education.
Instead you are turning into a recalcitrant. Sad!

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4oq5b$uah$1@dont-email.me>

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From: michael....@att.net (Michael Trew)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2022 10:34:18 -0400
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 by: Michael Trew - Mon, 2 May 2022 14:34 UTC

On 4/29/2022 9:48, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>>
>> When you say a "static" balancer, do you mean a bubble balancer? I've
>> seen some used shop equipment come up for sale on FB Marketplace and
>> Craigslist before, still usually out of my preferred price range (cheap).
>
> The problem that anyone who has never worked on cars has with the term
> "dynamic balancing" is they fall prey to the fear-based marketing.
>
> Harbor Freight also sells a crappy bead breaker tool, which isn't designed
> for larger tires, but which works for those bigger SUV tires if you put a
> wooden board on it to "extend" its base as you step on the board to keep
> the bead breaker from tipping backward on those larger diameter tires.

Why is a tire larger than 18 inches ever necessary for a non-commercial
vehicle? I don't think I've ever had a vehicle (I've owned well over 30
vehicles) with a larger than 15 inch diameter tire. That includes my
F-150 and C10 trucks. My '97 Chrysler LHS *might* have had 16" tires,
at the largest. I hate needlessly large modern trucks and SUV's.

Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)

<t4or6a$7pi$1@dont-email.me>

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From: michael....@att.net (Michael Trew)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,rec.autos.tech
Subject: Re: "Google Wallet may be making a return" (and "Why is it so complex
to add Covid-19 Vaccination Cards to the Apple Wallet?!)
Date: Mon, 02 May 2022 10:51:54 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <t4grm7$17vn$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 by: Michael Trew - Mon, 2 May 2022 14:51 UTC

On 4/29/2022 10:11, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Michael Trew wrote:
>
>>> 1. HF magnetic light (AA only - I never buy AAA items - ever!)
>>
>> Why no AAA batteries?
>
> Logic. Sense. Practicality.

True, but some things, you can't help. Both my Roku box for the TV and
the DVD/VCR combo take AAA batteries. I didn't design the remotes; they
are what they are.

> Fun fact: Did you ever take apart a 9V battery cube? (Guess what's inside.)

No I haven't, but I looked it up. Looks like 6 little 1.5V batteries;
interesting.

> For _years_ I've been documenting my, oh, it's well over sixty tires by
> now, where I wrote a tutorial at the 40-tire mark long ago (I don't have
> kids at home anymore that have cars to be fixed with them learning how).
>
> BTW, I'm logical and sensible, so if there is _anything_ I've suggested
> above that you would like to understand the logic of, then just ask.
>
>> I fix most things on cars myself, and there is a satisfaction to that
>> (although it's also relevant to cheap/necessity for me).
>
> I have never been to a mechanic in my life and I own cars for decades.

I don't own any BMW's, but if you're bored enough, feel free to come
visit -- I've got a 6 car garage, and car projects for weeks! ;)

New Garage:

https://postimg.cc/mt2LFr46
https://postimg.cc/SjGQsMBM

Part of my mess:

https://postimg.cc/PL6yZdsR

There are several Geo Metros out of view, as well as an '89 Olds Cutlass
Ciera up on jacks. A neighbor torched off the rusted-on rotors, and I
need to finish the brakes and lower ball joints.

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