Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

> In my career, I've had some comedic moments at work, when staff
> discover that nobody tested the restore, and it didn't work.

Paul,
What do these backup programs do that a basic copy won't do?
Me?

a. I copy my C:\data folder (which contains all data I care about).
b. I copy my C:\menu (so I can re-used the menu on another system).
c. I copy my C:\archive folder (so I have a copy of all installers).

What else do you really need for a backup if your purpose is to
set up a new system or wipe out the old corrupted system & renew it.
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

Wally J wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote
>
>> In my career, I've had some comedic moments at work, when staff
>> discover that nobody tested the restore, and it didn't work.
>
> Paul,
> What do these backup programs do that a basic copy won't do?
> Me?
>
> a. I copy my C:\data folder (which contains all data I care about).
> b. I copy my C:\menu (so I can re-used the menu on another system).
> c. I copy my C:\archive folder (so I have a copy of all installers).
>
> What else do you really need for a backup if your purpose is to
> set up a new system or wipe out the old corrupted system & renew it.

Here's an ideal:

Backup program runs continuously, copying everything to a backup device;
with no involvement from you, the user.

Computer dies.

You assemble a new computer.

Connect this new computer to the backup device and tell the device
"restore". Go away and have cup of tea.

Sit at new computer and continue work where you were when you were so
rudely interrupted by the computer failure.

--
Graham J

Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote

>> What else do you really need for a backup if your purpose is to
>> set up a new system or wipe out the old corrupted system & renew it.
>
> Backup program runs continuously, copying everything to a backup device;
> with no involvement from you, the user.

That's exactly what I said, isn't it?
That rcync automation doesn't require Macrium.

What does Macrium do, that's truly useful, that rsync doesn't already do?

The question is why do we need a special program when something like rsync
will copy the critical directories (which are only your data, in reality)?

What does Macrium do that a simple copy of critical data won't already do?

Note: I'm well aware people don't organize their computers so they have no
idea where their important data is - so this question assumes people who
aren't stupid - who do know where their critical data is.

You only need a few things, IMHO, to "restore" a corrupted system:
a. your data
b. your installers
c. your customizations

What else could you need that you'd use Macrium instead of robocopy?
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

On 10/22/2023 10:18 AM, Nic wrote:
> On 10/22/23 9:56 AM, Paul wrote:
>>    Acronis True Image WD Edition / Seagate DiscWizard   Price : Free     <=== needed branded hardware, Seagate disk for Seagate version
>>
>>     Active@ Disk Image 6                                 Price: Free (Lite version)
>>
>>     AOMEI Backupper 1.6                                  Price: Free for personal and commercial use
>>
>>     EaseUS Todo Backup 6.5                               Price: Free
>>
>>     Macrium Reflect 5.2                                  Price: Free
>>
>>     Paragon Backup and Recovery 14                       Price: Free
> re:
>
>   Acronis True Image WD Edition / Seagate DiscWizard   Price : Free     <=== needed branded hardware, Seagate disk for Seagate version
>
>    Active@ Disk Image 6                                 Price: Free (Lite version)
>
>    AOMEI Backupper 1.6                                  Price: Free for personal and commercial use
>
>    EaseUS Todo Backup 6.5                               Price: Free
>
>    Macrium Reflect 5.2                                  Price: Free
>
>    Paragon Backup and Recovery 14                       Price: Free
>
> Can any of these make a useful bootable drive without an initial m$ environment? Stated differently will any of them work directly under Linux?
>

If they make Rescue CDs when you install them on Windows,
the Rescue CD might be of use on a Linux box, for "offline"
backups.

I can do that with the Macrium USB key. If I boot the Linux box
with the Macrium USB key, I can back up all the EXT4 partitions
on the Linux box. It will restore such that the drive boots,
but it is not using "intelligence" when it does that. It does
not understand GRUB, but it knows which sectors on the disk that
GRUB uses, and it restores those areas. It would not do anything
clever or useful, with the BLKIDs.

On Windows, it can change/randomize identifiers, then repair the
boot menu, so the thing boots again. The level of service on
Linux is different, I guess you could say, Macrium is closer to
a Clonezilla when working with a Linux disk.

The problem with moving Windows programs to Linux/WINE, is the
physical layer can be off-limits. I don't think WINE particularly
makes /dev/sda available to a Windows program. WINE does make
a Drive_C available to Windows programs, so they have an NTFS
file system to work with. But I don't recollect it being
able to make the raw disk layer available.

*******

For a quick test of physical layer access, you could use one
of these. Try these from your WINE launcher. The ZIP contains
a 32-bit program, the other file is a prototype 64-bit version.

http://www.chrysocome.net/download

dd-0.6beta3.zip 191 kb 2010-07-17 19:48-0700
ddrelease64.exe 2.3 Mb 2017-01-18 13:40-0800

And when you get it, you can try the equivalent of this in WINE.

dd.exe --list

and that will show the namespace of the storage.

This is the equivalent of /dev/sdb , stated as a Windows namespace.
That's an entire hard drive (Partition0 means a partition that starts
at sector 0 on the physical drive).

\\?\Device\Harddisk1\Partition0
link to \\?\Device\Harddisk1\DR1
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 37748736000 bytes

If that's what WINE showed as an output, when running that dd.exe
invocation, then it means a Windows-ecosystem backup program could
potentially run and be useful.

Otherwise, if a backup program starts up and immediately starts
scanning the namespace, it is going to die and exit, without
doing anything useful. There would also be the problem, that
WINE isn't going to have a working VSS for "freezing" copies
of partitions for backup (for "online" backups).

Summary: Your best chance of success or of getting value from a
potential Windows backup program, is to make its Rescue disc,
and do "offline" backups with it. You could make a Macrium
Reflect USB key for example, using Virtualbox on Linux and
installing a Windows (with no license key), installing Macrium
and using USB passthru to build a USB stick. That's about as
close to not getting my hands dirty, as I could get, for
prepping media. Making CDs that way, would be... difficult.
Some version of some VM hosting software, claims to be able to
operate a DVD writer in passthru, but I'll believe that when I see it :-)
Making USB sticks is more likely to work. Because I have done that.

Paul

s|b wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:25:17 -0400, ...winston wrote:
>
>> - ****Do not change the name**** of the stub installer. The name is
>> necessary to have the option to download the free version(8.0.7690)
>
> Yeah, no. I've got 8.0.6560. I changed the name /and/ I downloaded
> v8.0.7690_reflect_setup_free_x64.exe with it. Unless they changed
> something, you can definitely change the name.

The recommendation for not changing the name was:

If the name is unchanged, the stub downloader when run will only offer
the Free 8.0.6970 version.build

If the name is changed the stub downloader when run will offer both Home
and Free with the default as the Home. Not changing the default to Free
will download 8.1.7675, not 8.0

Another name change, e.g. ReflectFull will offer all other available
versions(Home, Workstation, Server, Server Plus) except/but not the Free
version.

To avoid error when changing the name(i.e. missing the need to select
Free instead of Home(the default) or not even having the option for the
Free version)
=> Don't change the name

It was posted here, not in Freeware b/c it was a followup to an earlier
discussion(as noted in the initial post) about the deprecation of the
free 8.0 version.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

Wally J wrote:
> Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote
>
>>> What else do you really need for a backup if your purpose is to
>>> set up a new system or wipe out the old corrupted system & renew it.
>>
>> Backup program runs continuously, copying everything to a backup device;
>> with no involvement from you, the user.
>
> That's exactly what I said, isn't it?
> That rcync automation doesn't require Macrium.
>
> What does Macrium do, that's truly useful, that rsync doesn't already do?
>
> The question is why do we need a special program when something like rsync
> will copy the critical directories (which are only your data, in reality)?
>
> What does Macrium do that a simple copy of critical data won't already do?
>
> Note: I'm well aware people don't organize their computers so they have no
> idea where their important data is - so this question assumes people who
> aren't stupid - who do know where their critical data is.
>
> You only need a few things, IMHO, to "restore" a corrupted system:
> a. your data
> b. your installers
> c. your customizations
>
> What else could you need that you'd use Macrium instead of robocopy?
>

Macrium and other image programs provide multi-purpose imaging options
for the same or other devices(newly built)

e.g. for an existing device with Windows

1. Image only the 4 required UEFI GPT partitions
System, MSR, Windows and Windows Recovery
in this case, if the default Windows folders[Pictures, Documents,
Downloads, etc.] are used for main data storage(in lieu of another
internal driveor even SDXC card - common on some laptops) then the image
taken would include the Windows partition that contains all that data
- thus an image restore would return the device to same condition on
the date the image was created.
2. In a similar case to number (1), if the data was not stored in those
default Windows folders(stored on a different disk/card)then the image
of the main disk could be only those 4 required UEFI GPT partitions(a
much smaller image and less time to create the image or restore) without
tampering or later needing to copy data or other content.
3. Image the 4 required partitions and selectively choose to included(or
by default choose all) other partitions(a data partition on the same
disk, and/or OEM special recovery partition(s) that may contain
as-shipped software and/or a partition necessary to use OEM recovery
disk to an as-shipped condition) or partitions on other disks.

The above are only two examples..both obviate the need to reinstall
Windows on the same device, copy your data back to a device(only data
changed after the image date would need to be copied), your Windows and
program settings(at the time of the image).

Using imaging software is not only about restoring data, building a new
device, cloning to a different disk in the same or other device.

Robocopy was never intended to perform imaging functions.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

On 10/22/2023 4:17 PM, Wally J wrote:

>
> What else could you need that you'd use Macrium instead of robocopy?
>

Macrium is a permissions-smasher.

Robocopy is not.

Rsync is only good in a "linear universe". The C: drive is
not a linear universe. It's perverse.

Macrium gets everything off the disk, that you could reasonably
expect to get off the disk. Many other commercial backup
packages will do the same thing. They all use VSS (Volume Shadow Service)
to "freeze" a copy of C: while the OS is running and you want a backup.
Some files will not quiesce, and they are not captured. The search
indexer Windows.edb or Windows.db file, would be an example. Shadows
hiding in System Volume Information, should not be backed up either.

We can't tell what is on the disk, since no Windows utility
can access all of it with any authority.

Linux cannot traverse a C: partition one hundred percent, because
of custom reparse points. The "New style compression" in Windows,
used to report "I/O Error" in Linux, indicating it did not have
code for the Reparse Point it found. It is possible to disable
compression, but even if you execute the command for that after
a brand new install is finished, some of your goods have already
been compressed. Maybe turning off compression and doing a
Repair Install could fix that, but I haven't wasted the time on it.

The gentleman who was wiped out by ransomware, it took him three
months to restore the computers (small business man). He was
never the same after that. It took a toll. No backups worth a darn.
Didn't even have the license keys recorded as to which license
goes with which computer. it's for these people, we image systems
and try to get them to associate one backup hard drive, with a "box".

dd.exe will get all your files too. And, be slow about it.

Acronis and Macrium and the others, they usually include a "mounter",
so you have random access to the contents of a backup. Macrium also
used to have a converter, to convert an MRIMG into a VHD (for virtual
machine access), but they gave up on maintaining that. When you mount
an MRIMG, there is a tick box to turn off permissions, and then you
can get places in the file tree, that would normally not be easy to get to.

Paul

On 10/22/23 6:18 PM, Paul wrote:
> On 10/22/2023 10:18 AM, Nic wrote:
>> On 10/22/23 9:56 AM, Paul wrote:
>>>    Acronis True Image WD Edition / Seagate DiscWizard   Price : Free     <=== needed branded hardware, Seagate disk for Seagate version
>>>
>>>     Active@ Disk Image 6                                 Price: Free (Lite version)
>>>
>>>     AOMEI Backupper 1.6                                  Price: Free for personal and commercial use
>>>
>>>     EaseUS Todo Backup 6.5                               Price: Free
>>>
>>>     Macrium Reflect 5.2                                  Price: Free
>>>
>>>     Paragon Backup and Recovery 14                       Price: Free
>> re:
>>
>>   Acronis True Image WD Edition / Seagate DiscWizard   Price : Free     <=== needed branded hardware, Seagate disk for Seagate version
>>
>>    Active@ Disk Image 6                                 Price: Free (Lite version)
>>
>>    AOMEI Backupper 1.6                                  Price: Free for personal and commercial use
>>
>>    EaseUS Todo Backup 6.5                               Price: Free
>>
>>    Macrium Reflect 5.2                                  Price: Free
>>
>>    Paragon Backup and Recovery 14                       Price: Free
>>
>> Can any of these make a useful bootable drive without an initial m$ environment? Stated differently will any of them work directly under Linux?
>>
> If they make Rescue CDs when you install them on Windows,
> the Rescue CD might be of use on a Linux box, for "offline"
> backups.
>
> I can do that with the Macrium USB key. If I boot the Linux box
> with the Macrium USB key, I can back up all the EXT4 partitions
> on the Linux box. It will restore such that the drive boots,
> but it is not using "intelligence" when it does that. It does
> not understand GRUB, but it knows which sectors on the disk that
> GRUB uses, and it restores those areas. It would not do anything
> clever or useful, with the BLKIDs.
>
> On Windows, it can change/randomize identifiers, then repair the
> boot menu, so the thing boots again. The level of service on
> Linux is different, I guess you could say, Macrium is closer to
> a Clonezilla when working with a Linux disk.
>
> The problem with moving Windows programs to Linux/WINE, is the
> physical layer can be off-limits. I don't think WINE particularly
> makes /dev/sda available to a Windows program. WINE does make
> a Drive_C available to Windows programs, so they have an NTFS
> file system to work with. But I don't recollect it being
> able to make the raw disk layer available.
>
> *******
>
> For a quick test of physical layer access, you could use one
> of these. Try these from your WINE launcher. The ZIP contains
> a 32-bit program, the other file is a prototype 64-bit version.
>
> http://www.chrysocome.net/download
>
> dd-0.6beta3.zip 191 kb 2010-07-17 19:48-0700
> ddrelease64.exe 2.3 Mb 2017-01-18 13:40-0800
>
> And when you get it, you can try the equivalent of this in WINE.
>
> dd.exe --list
>
> and that will show the namespace of the storage.
>
> This is the equivalent of /dev/sdb , stated as a Windows namespace.
> That's an entire hard drive (Partition0 means a partition that starts
> at sector 0 on the physical drive).
>
> \\?\Device\Harddisk1\Partition0
> link to \\?\Device\Harddisk1\DR1
> Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
> size is 37748736000 bytes
>
> If that's what WINE showed as an output, when running that dd.exe
> invocation, then it means a Windows-ecosystem backup program could
> potentially run and be useful.
>
> Otherwise, if a backup program starts up and immediately starts
> scanning the namespace, it is going to die and exit, without
> doing anything useful. There would also be the problem, that
> WINE isn't going to have a working VSS for "freezing" copies
> of partitions for backup (for "online" backups).
>
> Summary: Your best chance of success or of getting value from a
> potential Windows backup program, is to make its Rescue disc,
> and do "offline" backups with it. You could make a Macrium
> Reflect USB key for example, using Virtualbox on Linux and
> installing a Windows (with no license key), installing Macrium
> and using USB passthru to build a USB stick. That's about as
> close to not getting my hands dirty, as I could get, for
> prepping media. Making CDs that way, would be... difficult.
> Some version of some VM hosting software, claims to be able to
> operate a DVD writer in passthru, but I'll believe that when I see it :-)
> Making USB sticks is more likely to work. Because I have done that.
>
> Paul
Thanks Paul for the convoluted answer, so the short answer is NO, these
are windows m$ backup programs. I think I will stay with my hardware
backup system for now.