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devel / comp.theory / Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

SubjectAuthor
* Category errorMr Flibble
+* Category errorolcott
|`* Category errorRichard Damon
| `* Category errorolcott
|  `* Category errorRichard Damon
|   `* Category errorolcott
|    `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|     `* Category errorolcott
|      `* Category errorRichard Damon
|       +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |`* Category errorolcott
|       | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |  +- Category errorRichard Damon
|       |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |  `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |       `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |       `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |        `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |         `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       `* Category errorolcott
|        +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |`* Category errorolcott
|        | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |  `* Category errorolcott
|        |   +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |   |`- Category errorolcott
|        |   `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |    `* Category errorolcott
|        |     `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |      `* Category errorolcott
|        |       `- Category errorRichard Damon
|        `- Category errorRichard Damon
+* Category errorwij
|`* Category errorMr Flibble
| `- Category errorolcott
`* Category errorMikko
 `* Category errorolcott
  +* Category errorRichard Damon
  |`* Category errorolcott
  | `- Category errorRichard Damon
  `* Category errorBen
   +* Category errorolcott
   |+- Category errorRichard Damon
   |`- Category errorBen
   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |    `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
       `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
        +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
        `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
         `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
          +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |+- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Richard Damon
          |    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |     |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     |  |||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Malcolm McLean
          |     |  ||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  ||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Python
          `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben

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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<t66dbu$vif$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: pyt...@example.invalid (Python)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 23:38:17 +0200
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 by: Python - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:38 UTC

Peter Olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
....
>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>
>
> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been ill
> and had other issues that I had to deal with.

It should have taken four hours, remember?

You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:21 UTC

On 5/19/22 4:53 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 2:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/19/2022 6:56 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored
>>>>>>>>>> at:212352
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      //
>>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      //
>>>>>>>>>> push P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 //
>>>>>>>>>> call H
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      //
>>>>>>>>>> enter P
>>>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking
>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what,
>>>>>>>>> but it's
>>>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on.  I
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is
>>>>>>>>> fundamentally honest
>>>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.
>>>>>>>>> It's just
>>>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating"
>>>>>>>>> and H
>>>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, "if".  So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify
>>>>>>> editing the
>>>>>>> trace?  You should be clear on this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>>> Another question you won't answer.  What are you hiding?
>>>>
>>>> A confusing mess of ridiculously complex and totally irrelevant
>>>> information that you have consistently proven incapable of
>>>> comprehending.
>>>
>>> You'll have to make it public one day, unless chatting on here is your
>>> only objective.
>>
>> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
>> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
>> CORRECT.
>>
>> #include <stdint.h>
>> #define u32 uint32_t
>>
>> void P(u32 x)
>> {
>>    if (H(x, x))
>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>    return;
>> }
>>
>> int main()
>> {
>>    Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
>> }
>>
>> _P()
>> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
>> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
>> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
>> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
>> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
>> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
>> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
>> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
>> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
>> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
>> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
>> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>>
>> _main()
>> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
>> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
>> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
>> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
>> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
>> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
>> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
>> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
>> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
>> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
>> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
>> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>>
>>      machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>      address   address   data      code       language
>>      ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
>> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>
>> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine
>> address with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the
>> infinite recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior
>> pattern.
>>
>> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
>> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
>> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
>> "Input_Halts = "
>> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
>> Input_Halts = 0
>> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
>> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
>> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
>> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
>> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>>
>>
>>> No one will take deceptively edited traces as evidence
>>> of anything but you being shifty, and since you've already abandoned any
>>> pretence at talking about the halting problem, all you have is this
>>> faked-up trace of the simulation.
>>
>> ANYONE WITH SUFFICIENT TECHNICAL COMPETENCE THAT IS NOT A GOD DAMNED
>> LIAR KNOWS THAT I ALREADY TOTALLY PROVED MY POINT THAT H(P,P)==0 IS
>> CORRECT.
>>
>
>
> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>
> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>
> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P


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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:43 UTC

On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
> ...
>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>
>>
>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>
> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>
> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>

I have been sick from chemotherapy.
I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
My design scales much better than Ben's design.
Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<jYzhK.429$IgSc.80@fx45.iad>

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 19 May 2022 22:58 UTC

On 5/19/22 6:43 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>> ...
>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>
>> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>>
>> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>>
>
> I have been sick from chemotherapy.
> I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
> I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>

My design is O(1) for state transitions, so it scales even better. (Bit
more overhead on reading in the design, but is O(1) for running)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

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 by: olcott - Thu, 19 May 2022 23:38 UTC

On 5/19/2022 5:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/19/22 6:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> ...
>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>
>>> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>>>
>>> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>>>
>>
>> I have been sick from chemotherapy.
>> I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
>> I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>>
>
> My design is O(1) for state transitions, so it scales even better. (Bit
> more overhead on reading in the design, but is O(1) for running)
>

Normally for a DFA one always has O(1) because the current input and
current state are in a fully populated matrix. When the current state,
current input are in a sparse matrix a fully populated matrix wastes too
mach space. In this case O log2(N) is the best that we can do. I had to
do this for my DFA based OCR system because the current input was a
short list of 24-bit pixels.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<87y1yx6oyz.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:13 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> My design scales much better than Ben's design.

You can't possibly know. For one thing, I have written more than one
interpreter since you suggested you were going to do this.

> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.

No.

> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.

There is no point in talking about N without saying what N is. From
what you've posted, I would imagine your lookup is O(log(mn)) where n is
the number of states and m is the size of the tape alphabet.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

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 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:23 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>
>
> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.

So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:24 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:13 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>
> You can't possibly know. For one thing, I have written more than one
> interpreter since you suggested you were going to do this.
>
>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>
> No.
>
>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>
> There is no point in talking about N without saying what N is. From
> what you've posted, I would imagine your lookup is O(log(mn)) where n is
> the number of states and m is the size of the tape alphabet.
>

Actually it is far less than that.
It is the exactly same thing as my OCR DFA.
The average length of the list of state + input pairs.

With 24 million pixels and hundreds of thousands of states N tended to
be about 20---> O log2(20).

To put this in more conventional terms N is the average number of
outward paths from each node.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:32 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>
>>
>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>
> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>

I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.

A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).

pXYqL
This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
the machine moves to state q,
replaces X with Y and
moves the tape head to the left.

void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };

For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
(a) make a transition to state 's'.
(b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
(c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.

When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 01:40:36 +0100
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 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:40 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/19/2022 7:13 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>> You can't possibly know. For one thing, I have written more than one
>> interpreter since you suggested you were going to do this.
>>
>>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>> No.
>>
>>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>> There is no point in talking about N without saying what N is.

What is N?

>> From what you've posted, I would imagine your lookup is O(log(mn))
>> where n is the number of states and m is the size of the tape
>> alphabet.
>
> Actually it is far less than that.

Then you've changed the design. Fair enough.

> It is the exactly same thing as my OCR DFA.

The software that was going to make you millions? I remember that. How
many copies did you sell in the end?

> The average length of the list of state + input pairs.

How is that length not O(mn)? Sounds like the design you suggested
before. The lookup (using std::set) would be O(log(mn)).

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 01:52:51 +0100
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 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:52 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>
>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>
> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.

Unlikely.

> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>
> pXYqL
> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
> the machine moves to state q,
> replaces X with Y and
> moves the tape head to the left.
>
> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>
> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>
> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.

It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
It's just a common or garden bug.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

<87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 01:53:27 +0100
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 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:53 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT

Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
execution trace, or you could publish H itself (yes, an extraordinary
suggestion!). Until you do, you have nothing but a fake trace and an H
that does not decide the halting of the key computation.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<_FBhK.2312$J0r9.1486@fx11.iad>

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 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 00:55 UTC

On 5/19/22 7:38 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 5:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/19/22 6:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 4:38 PM, Python wrote:
>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 2:19 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have
>>>>> been ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>
>>>> It should have taken four hours, remember?
>>>>
>>>> You are a joke, a kook, a pretender.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have been sick from chemotherapy.
>>> I almost had to go the the hospital again last night.
>>> I had to spend two days in the hospital three weeks ago.
>>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>>>
>>
>> My design is O(1) for state transitions, so it scales even better.
>> (Bit more overhead on reading in the design, but is O(1) for running)
>>
>
> Normally for a DFA one always has O(1) because the current input and
> current state are in a fully populated matrix. When the current state,
> current input are in a sparse matrix a fully populated matrix wastes too
> mach space. In this case O log2(N) is the best that we can do. I had to
> do this for my DFA based OCR system because the current input was a
> short list of 24-bit pixels.
>

But it is easy to convert the sparce matrix into a dense one with a
simple mapping layer, and if you keep the inverse map around it is still
simple to make your output (and keep even that O(1))

The other option is to use a hash table to find entries.

Since for any case that matters, the run time vastly outweighs the time
to read the description, spending just a bit up front to optimize the
state transitions is likely worth it.

And, if you are limiting your states and symbols to the basic character
set, even the sparce table isn't that big for a modern computer (It
likely still fits in L1 cache)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<lNBhK.1369$x7oc.650@fx01.iad>

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 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:03 UTC

On 5/19/22 8:32 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing.  There's nothing left here.
>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>
>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>> checking TM?  Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>
>
> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>
> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>
> pXYqL
> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>   the machine moves to state q,
>   replaces X with Y and
>   moves the tape head to the left.
>
>   void move_left();    // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>   void move_right();   // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>   void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>   tape_element Read()       { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>
> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>      according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>
> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>

Are you remembering to lookup ALL the data for the transition and save
it before changing any of the data. The sequence should be:

Find the rule
save next_state, new_symbol, tape_direction
update state = next_state; write new_sybol to the tape; move the tape

Also, shouldn't move right to a Right.push_back(0), not a Left.push_back(0)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] TM design

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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:07 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:40 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 7:13 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>>> You can't possibly know. For one thing, I have written more than one
>>> interpreter since you suggested you were going to do this.
>>>
>>>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>>> No.
>>>
>>>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>>> There is no point in talking about N without saying what N is.
>
> What is N?
>
>>> From what you've posted, I would imagine your lookup is O(log(mn))
>>> where n is the number of states and m is the size of the tape
>>> alphabet.
>>
>> Actually it is far less than that.
>
> Then you've changed the design. Fair enough.
>
>> It is the exactly same thing as my OCR DFA.
>
> The software that was going to make you millions? I remember that. How
> many copies did you sell in the end?
>
>> The average length of the list of state + input pairs.
>
> How is that length not O(mn)? Sounds like the design you suggested
> before. The lookup (using std::set) would be O(log(mn)).
>

That design would be O number of log2(unique state + input pairs)
Not anywhere near the number of possible inputs, only the ones that are
actually used per state.

(0((0R
(0)A1L
(0AA0R
(0 2L
(1(A0R
(1AA1L
(1 NR Prather has 0 instead of R
(2((NR Prather has 0 instead of R
(2AA2L
(N--NR Never used. Its existence forces N to be a non-final state.
(2 YR
[((()))

O log2(11)

My OCR DFA has far fewer than this: O log2(20)

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] TM design

<875ym16l9e.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] TM design
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 02:33:17 +0100
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 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:33 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/19/2022 7:40 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:13 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> My design scales much better than Ben's design.
>>>> You can't possibly know. For one thing, I have written more than one
>>>> interpreter since you suggested you were going to do this.
>>>>
>>>>> Ben's design takes O(N) for state transitions.
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>>> My design takes log2(N) for state transitions.
>>>> There is no point in talking about N without saying what N is.
>> What is N?
>>
>>>> From what you've posted, I would imagine your lookup is O(log(mn))
>>>> where n is the number of states and m is the size of the tape
>>>> alphabet.
>>>
>>> Actually it is far less than that.
>> Then you've changed the design. Fair enough.
>>
>>> It is the exactly same thing as my OCR DFA.
>> The software that was going to make you millions? I remember that. How
>> many copies did you sell in the end?

How many? None?

>>> The average length of the list of state + input pairs.
>> How is that length not O(mn)? Sounds like the design you suggested
>> before. The lookup (using std::set) would be O(log(mn)).
>
> That design would be O number of log2(unique state + input pairs)

Let's just add this to the list, OK?

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:43 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>
>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>
>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>
> Unlikely.
>
>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>
>> pXYqL
>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>> the machine moves to state q,
>> replaces X with Y and
>> moves the tape head to the left.
>>
>> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>
>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>
>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>
> It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
> It's just a common or garden bug.
>

I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and it
does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
symbol is required for the state transition.

The second spec says transition specifies this:
Quintuple QT(current_state->state, Tape.Read());
and that does not work.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 02:58:56 +0100
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 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:58 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>
>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>
>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>> Unlikely.
>>
>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>
>>> pXYqL
>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>> the machine moves to state q,
>>> replaces X with Y and
>>> moves the tape head to the left.
>>>
>>> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>
>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>
>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>
>> It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>
> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
> symbol is required for the state transition.

I see nothing vague about it. δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
and enter state q.

> The second spec says transition specifies this:
> Quintuple QT(current_state->state, Tape.Read());
> and that does not work.

People will help you debug the code if you post it. And if you think
there is something vague, ask for clarification.

The code fragment you posted some while back was all wrong, but I
imagine you've moved on from that now.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:03 UTC

On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>
>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>>> Unlikely.
>>>
>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>
>>>> pXYqL
>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>> the machine moves to state q,
>>>> replaces X with Y and
>>>> moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>
>>>> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>>> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>
>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>
>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>
>>> It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>
>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>
> I see nothing vague about it. δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
> and enter state q.
>

That does not actually work.

>> The second spec says transition specifies this:
>> Quintuple QT(current_state->state, Tape.Read());
>> and that does not work.
>
> People will help you debug the code if you post it. And if you think
> there is something vague, ask for clarification.
>

I want to do this only my own.

> The code fragment you posted some while back was all wrong, but I
> imagine you've moved on from that now.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<6286fb27$0$26336$426a34cc@news.free.fr>

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 by: Python - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:21 UTC

Peter Olcott wrote:
....
> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and it
> does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
> symbol is required for the state transition.

You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.

What do you think?

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:32 UTC

On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
> ...
>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>
> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>
> What do you think?
>

Objectively I am a genius.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

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 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:39 UTC

On 5/19/22 10:03 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing.  There's nothing left
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>>> checking TM?  Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>>>> Unlikely.
>>>>
>>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>>
>>>>> pXYqL
>>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>>>     the machine moves to state q,
>>>>>     replaces X with Y and
>>>>>     moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>>
>>>>>     void move_left();    // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>     void move_right();   // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>     void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>>>>     tape_element Read()       { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>>>        according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>>
>>>> It's called a bug.  I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that
>>>> your
>>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
>>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>>
>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>>
>> I see nothing vague about it.  δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
>> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
>> and enter state q.
>>
>
> That does not actually work.

WHY? That is what the line means.

>
>>> The second spec says transition specifies this:
>>>      Quintuple QT(current_state->state, Tape.Read());
>>> and that does not work.
>>
>> People will help you debug the code if you post it.  And if you think
>> there is something vague, ask for clarification.
>>
>
> I want to do this only my own.
>
>> The code fragment you posted some while back was all wrong, but I
>> imagine you've moved on from that now.
>>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

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 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:40 UTC

On 5/19/22 10:32 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> ...
>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which
>>> input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>
>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>
> Objectively I am a genius.
>

Only by your logic, which has been proved faulty.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

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 by: Python - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:43 UTC

Peter Olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> ...
>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which
>>> input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>
>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>
> Objectively I am a genius.
>

Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:45 UTC

On 5/19/2022 9:43 PM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which
>>>> input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>
>>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>
>> Objectively I am a genius.
>>
>
> Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
> exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!
>
>

I have been ill, nitwit.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor