Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

I've noticed several design suggestions in your code.


devel / comp.theory / Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

SubjectAuthor
* Category errorMr Flibble
+* Category errorolcott
|`* Category errorRichard Damon
| `* Category errorolcott
|  `* Category errorRichard Damon
|   `* Category errorolcott
|    `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|     `* Category errorolcott
|      `* Category errorRichard Damon
|       +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |`* Category errorolcott
|       | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |  +- Category errorRichard Damon
|       |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |  `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |       `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |       `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |        `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |         `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       `* Category errorolcott
|        +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |`* Category errorolcott
|        | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |  `* Category errorolcott
|        |   +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |   |`- Category errorolcott
|        |   `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |    `* Category errorolcott
|        |     `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |      `* Category errorolcott
|        |       `- Category errorRichard Damon
|        `- Category errorRichard Damon
+* Category errorwij
|`* Category errorMr Flibble
| `- Category errorolcott
`* Category errorMikko
 `* Category errorolcott
  +* Category errorRichard Damon
  |`* Category errorolcott
  | `- Category errorRichard Damon
  `* Category errorBen
   +* Category errorolcott
   |+- Category errorRichard Damon
   |`- Category errorBen
   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |    `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
       `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
        +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
        `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
         `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
          +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |+- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Richard Damon
          |    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |     |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     |  |||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Malcolm McLean
          |     |  ||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  ||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Python
          `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben

Pages:123456789101112
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<62870186$0$8522$426a34cc@news.free.fr>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32661&group=comp.theory#32661

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!pasdenom.info!nntpfeed.proxad.net!proxad.net!feeder1-1.proxad.net!cleanfeed3-b.proxad.net!nnrp1-1.free.fr!not-for-mail
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 04:48:47 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: fr
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<6286fb27$0$26336$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<bcqdnY4_R-EmYBv_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
<6287004d$0$22063$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnRzbVvhHnRr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
From: pyt...@python.invalid (Python)
In-Reply-To: <xL-dnRzbVvhHnRr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <62870186$0$8522$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
Organization: Guest of ProXad - France
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2022 04:48:38 CEST
NNTP-Posting-Host: 176.150.91.24
X-Trace: 1653014918 news-4.free.fr 8522 176.150.91.24:57155
X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net
 by: Python - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:48 UTC

Peter Olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 9:43 PM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified
>>>>> and it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on
>>>>> which input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>
>>>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Objectively I am a genius.
>>>
>>
>> Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
>> exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!
>>
>>
>
> I have been ill, nitwit.
>

You've always been, idiot.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<xL-dnR_bVvhhnBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32662&group=comp.theory#32662

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:50:35 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 21:50:33 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<6286fb27$0$26336$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<bcqdnY4_R-EmYBv_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
<6287004d$0$22063$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnRzbVvhHnRr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
<62870186$0$8522$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <62870186$0$8522$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <xL-dnR_bVvhhnBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 40
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-HOfbsCn9CRx12Ixy9GcyxTpmu5AkP+41e73GJOliVM/dv8ymXeYvPm1mYz7kASbImzKKAZKvyJD3Vux!i5SvGarxP8mNF0+Whba9vBvAnK77z4tvkeXYWoyNul23nfDGSKV+f4AEMvUPXccsn/OWnv02hAA=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3018
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:50 UTC

On 5/19/2022 9:48 PM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 9:43 PM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified
>>>>>> and it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on
>>>>>> which input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>>
>>>>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Objectively I am a genius.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
>>> exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I have been ill, nitwit.
>>
>
> You've always been, idiot.
>
>

As an objective fact, I am a genius. Any opinion that disagrees with a
fact is necessarily incorrect.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<6287055c$0$9150$426a34cc@news.free.fr>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32663&group=comp.theory#32663

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.mixmin.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!cleanfeed1-b.proxad.net!nnrp1-1.free.fr!not-for-mail
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 05:05:09 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-GB
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<6286fb27$0$26336$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<bcqdnY4_R-EmYBv_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
<6287004d$0$22063$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnRzbVvhHnRr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
<62870186$0$8522$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnR_bVvhhnBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
From: pyt...@python.invalid (Python)
In-Reply-To: <xL-dnR_bVvhhnBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <6287055c$0$9150$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
Organization: Guest of ProXad - France
NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 May 2022 05:05:00 CEST
NNTP-Posting-Host: 176.150.91.24
X-Trace: 1653015900 news-4.free.fr 9150 176.150.91.24:57194
X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net
 by: Python - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:05 UTC

Peter Olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 9:48 PM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 9:43 PM, Python wrote:
>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified
>>>>>>> and it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on
>>>>>>> which input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Objectively I am a genius.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
>>>> exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have been ill, nitwit.
>>>
>>
>> You've always been, idiot.
>>
>>
>
> As an objective fact, I am a genius. Any opinion that disagrees with a
> fact is necessarily incorrect.
>

You are a delusional pathetic psycho, and you'll die so.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32664&group=comp.theory#32664

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 04:07:05 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 109
Message-ID: <87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cdab4b3beb056ab549fca8770562cf4a";
logging-data="15000"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/pbrR3w2sJSLZ9DMow8VOc1aZitU0zJDE="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:uSc9n6zUrKGVl2m/MyAB6GFEP7Y=
sha1:FO3PfsHwRPna9KPadB7OCsM15MQ=
X-BSB-Auth: 1.55e9aee0d80cc405d4d3.20220520040705BST.87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk
 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:07 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>>>> Unlikely.
>>>>
>>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>>
>>>>> pXYqL
>>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>>> the machine moves to state q,
>>>>> replaces X with Y and
>>>>> moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>>
>>>>> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>>>> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>>> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>>
>>>> It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
>>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
>>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>>
>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>>
>> I see nothing vague about it. δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
>> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
>> and enter state q.
>
> That does not actually work.

It's the definition of the state transition function. It is what it
is. Here is the TM you talked about (paren.tm) accepting a string:

$ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
0 ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
1 _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
2 ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
3 _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
4 ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
5 ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
6 ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
7 _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
8 ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
9 _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
10 ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
11 ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
12 __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
13 ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
14 ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
15 _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
16 ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
17 ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
18 ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
accept after 18 steps.

What states does your interpreter show the TM going through?

>>> The second spec says transition specifies this:
>>> Quintuple QT(current_state->state, Tape.Read());
>>> and that does not work.
>>
>> People will help you debug the code if you post it. And if you think
>> there is something vague, ask for clarification.
>
> I want to do this only my own.

I wish you well.

>> The code fragment you posted some while back was all wrong, but I
>> imagine you've moved on from that now.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<4fudnXDQWPSRlRr_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32665&group=comp.theory#32665

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:16:28 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:16:26 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<6286fb27$0$26336$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<bcqdnY4_R-EmYBv_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
<6287004d$0$22063$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnRzbVvhHnRr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
<62870186$0$8522$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnR_bVvhhnBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
<6287055c$0$9150$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <6287055c$0$9150$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <4fudnXDQWPSRlRr_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 49
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-qmZehB+9zCI1tygXr8uDKw1pFF7s2XZdQoNeKACtcTaWwKvgQWSB0xCk14+fDrjzjfdcJwB0aqlaGrR!TEGeABD9eSI9i78jQCRCI1Q/pR2bKjYZliwfdWHwIK4cQ2xgQEOMy1+1HGLvl0cU23jRVnzrbGo=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3374
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:16 UTC

On 5/19/2022 10:05 PM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 9:48 PM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/19/2022 9:43 PM, Python wrote:
>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified
>>>>>>>> and it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on
>>>>>>>> which input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Objectively I am a genius.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
>>>>> exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have been ill, nitwit.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You've always been, idiot.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> As an objective fact, I am a genius. Any opinion that disagrees with a
>> fact is necessarily incorrect.
>>
>
> You are a delusional pathetic psycho, and you'll die so.
>

You are a a nasty jackass and karma will catch up with you.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32666&group=comp.theory#32666

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:22:54 -0500
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:22:51 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 237
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-bYAf/aGhVI8sCPKr+RB9qR5MW4en0UZjgIX4IeqdWBSTiF6p1NA4RWRHk0Qg9czggTMvfNGxDA+WLoW!AQB1BoCFRy5AJhPjQ+SC1VQw/Uifz5pQDUl9EWx0FT0zNhCPlvNbrl/0TrTRL/0Nd1od9e/QWC0=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 9290
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 03:22 UTC

On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>>>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>>>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>>>>> Unlikely.
>>>>>
>>>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pXYqL
>>>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>>>> the machine moves to state q,
>>>>>> replaces X with Y and
>>>>>> moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>>>>> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>>>> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>>>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
>>>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
>>>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>>>
>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>>>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>
>>> I see nothing vague about it. δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
>>> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
>>> and enter state q.
>>
>> That does not actually work.
>
> It's the definition of the state transition function. It is what it
> is. Here is the TM you talked about (paren.tm) accepting a string:
>
> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
> 0 ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
> 1 _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
> 2 ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
> 3 _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
> 4 ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
> 5 ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
> 6 ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
> 7 _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
> 8 ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
> 9 _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
> 10 ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
> 11 ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
> 12 __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
> 13 ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
> 14 ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
> 15 _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
> 16 ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
> 17 ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
> 18 ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
> accept after 18 steps.
>

I can't quote tell what that says. The original TM.exe provides a good
trace.

tm> read tm paren
tm> set tape ((()))
tm> set trace tape
tm> go

((()))
^ state: 0, next quint: 0((0R
((()))
^
state: 0, next quint: 0((0R
((()))
^
state: 0, next quint: 0((0R
((()))
^
state: 0, next quint: 0)A1L

(((A))
^
state: 1, next quint: 1(A0R
((AA))
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
((AA))
^
state: 0, next quint: 0)A1L
((AAA)
^
state: 1, next quint: 1AA1L
((AAA)
^
state: 1, next quint: 1AA1L
((AAA)
^
state: 1, next quint: 1(A0R
(AAAA)
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
(AAAA)
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
(AAAA)
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
(AAAA)
^
state: 0, next quint: 0)A1L
(AAAAA
^
state: 1, next quint: 1AA1L
(AAAAA
^
state: 1, next quint: 1AA1L
(AAAAA
^
state: 1, next quint: 1AA1L
(AAAAA
^
state: 1, next quint: 1AA1L
(AAAAA
^ state: 1, next quint: 1(A0R
AAAAAA
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
AAAAAA
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
AAAAAA
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
AAAAAA
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
AAAAAA
^
state: 0, next quint: 0AA0R
AAAAAA
^
state: 0, next quint: 0 2L
AAAAAA
^
state: 2, next quint: 2AA2L
AAAAAA
^
state: 2, next quint: 2AA2L
AAAAAA
^
state: 2, next quint: 2AA2L
AAAAAA
^
state: 2, next quint: 2AA2L
AAAAAA
^
state: 2, next quint: 2AA2L
AAAAAA
^ state: 2, next quint: 2AA2L
AAAAAA
^ state: 2, next quint: 2 YR
AAAAAA
^
state: Y, next quint: (none)
Halted in final state Y
tm>

> What states does your interpreter show the TM going through?
>
>>>> The second spec says transition specifies this:
>>>> Quintuple QT(current_state->state, Tape.Read());
>>>> and that does not work.
>>>
>>> People will help you debug the code if you post it. And if you think
>>> there is something vague, ask for clarification.
>>
>> I want to do this only my own.
>
> I wish you well.

It has my highest development priority.
Personal matters have a higher priority.

I have been just a little too weak to handle those personal matters.
I expect to be better by tomorrow when my immune system starts to
return. There are two days in every chemo cycle when I have zero immune
system. Yesterday was one of these days.

>
>>> The code fragment you posted some while back was all wrong, but I
>>> imagine you've moved on from that now.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<t676ip$epp$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32667&group=comp.theory#32667

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: jbb...@notatt.com (Jeff Barnett)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 22:48:23 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <t676ip$epp$1@dont-email.me>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<6286fb27$0$26336$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<bcqdnY4_R-EmYBv_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
<6287004d$0$22063$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 04:48:26 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="0f89bc3a6dd4e27f9fe01c2d48d297e2";
logging-data="15161"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+3tDUoR4PZigbtA4GbLa6NIpn+/dyCIYw="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:IVO5X3zYgzJvg70/9UHYUFwo23M=
In-Reply-To: <6287004d$0$22063$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Jeff Barnett - Fri, 20 May 2022 04:48 UTC

On 5/19/2022 8:43 PM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which
>>>> input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>
>>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>
>> Objectively I am a genius.
>>
>
> Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
> exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!

That's an insult to CS grad students even though the general competence
level has fallen in the last few decades. I believe this task can be
done by a fair number of children in the last years of elementary school
with a decent teacher helping them to understand things, i.e., teaching
them; not doing the work for them. Peter has as much difficulty with
programming (software engineering) as he clearly does with theory of
computation, logic, math in general, and all branches of epistemology.
None of this is likely to change - so why bother to constantly remind
him of his obvious shortcomings?
--
Jeff Barnett

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32668&group=comp.theory#32668

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 00:45:09 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 00:45:06 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 132
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-xzLuzdhg5H/zV7Hctar0lLMb9GHJCKgRhqgzQs/RnZcZbmLFhBPDrlRsKj6li/ZPJRQTPSDQFBBmM3O!hOeK7s+Rsx27IJRpiR67A2ljmL04HuvjKhC8SfYFw1xyIZDh8v7GWkZ0aj6UwI0XX5gi9ktu/mw=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 6817
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:45 UTC

On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>
> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
> execution trace,

If you can't understand that a single page already proves that H(p,P)==0
is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold more details.

ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P

WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT

#include <stdint.h>
#define u32 uint32_t

void P(u32 x)
{ if (H(x, x))
HERE: goto HERE;
return;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
}

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]

_main()
[00001372](01) 55 push ebp
[00001373](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001375](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137a](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137f](05) e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001384](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001387](01) 50 push eax
[00001388](05) 6823040000 push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
[0000138d](05) e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
[00001392](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001395](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
[00001397](01) 5d pop ebp
[00001398](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]

machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
....[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55 push ebp
....[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

....[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50 push eax
....[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
"Input_Halts = "
---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
Input_Halts = 0
....[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
....[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d pop ebp
....[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3 ret
Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages

> or you could publish H itself (yes, an extraordinary
> suggestion!). Until you do, you have nothing but a fake trace and an H
> that does not decide the halting of the key computation.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

<zridnSrfGbo2sRr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32669&group=comp.theory#32669

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 00:52:43 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 00:52:41 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <zridnSrfGbo2sRr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 138
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-Ll8N84A/xMnX5Yly0itijHu7e8m/AduPm+DZCnCxxm3zV8Df89QZNi21k2lTwPIdTg00U9wkEwyjJwY!ZReGGVsuB/DYahyumO5X2ZrkondJBKA6JHFdaIaLze/kSoX/MBrOVZ7bU0CNjdA776bnQKM8y3I=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 7652
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 05:52 UTC

On 5/20/2022 12:45 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>
>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>> execution trace,
>
> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that H(p,P)==0
> is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold more details.

would not help.

>
>
>
> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>
> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>
>
>
> #include <stdint.h>
> #define u32 uint32_t
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
> _main()
> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.
>
> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
> "Input_Halts = "
> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> Input_Halts = 0
> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>
>
>
>
>
>> or you could publish H itself (yes, an extraordinary
>> suggestion!).  Until you do, you have nothing but a fake trace and an H
>> that does not decide the halting of the key computation.
>>
>
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<b6d2612a-1a1e-4c32-8f1e-be89c0a12a1fn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32670&group=comp.theory#32670

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:4310:b0:67b:3fc1:86eb with SMTP id u16-20020a05620a431000b0067b3fc186ebmr5516538qko.495.1653035360485;
Fri, 20 May 2022 01:29:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a5b:6c1:0:b0:633:b5c7:b9b7 with SMTP id
r1-20020a5b06c1000000b00633b5c7b9b7mr8369206ybq.67.1653035360192; Fri, 20 May
2022 01:29:20 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 01:29:20 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2a00:23a8:400a:5601:c533:9926:e4a:73ac;
posting-account=Dz2zqgkAAADlK5MFu78bw3ab-BRFV4Qn
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2a00:23a8:400a:5601:c533:9926:e4a:73ac
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc> <t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <kZadnWtOuoZgSRj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<182fe08f-27bd-4ffd-abf0-f77a7b2ccdden@googlegroups.com> <CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b6d2612a-1a1e-4c32-8f1e-be89c0a12a1fn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 08:29:20 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Malcolm McLean - Fri, 20 May 2022 08:29 UTC

On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 16:41:21 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 3:29 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> > On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:26:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/18/2022 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
> >>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> >>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
> >>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> >>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
> >>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> >>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
> >>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> >>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
> >>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
> >>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but
> >>>>>> it's
> >>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
> >>>>>> entering a simulator.
> >>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on. I think
> >>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
> >>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
> >>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does. It's just
> >>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
> >>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
> >>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
> >>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
> >>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
> >>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ah, "if". So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
> >>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing the
> >>>> trace? You should be clear on this point.
> >>>
> >>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
> >>>
> >>>>> BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
> >>>>> PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
> >>>>> IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, I want to see a trace of the function you claim have,
> >>>
> >>> IF YOU CAN'T TELL FROM THE TRACE THAT H PRODUCES THAT H CORRECTLY
> >>> DECIDES ITS INPUT YOU SIMPLY ARE NOT ANYWHERE IN THE BALLPARK SMART
> >>> ENOUGH TO CORRECTLY ANALYZE MY WORK.
> >>>
> >>> I AM MUCH MORE APT TO BELIEVE DISHONEST RATHER THAN STUPID.
> >> I only want to treat you fairly and with honesty. Now that you have
> >> finally demonstrated excellent programming skills I finally have a basis
> >> to know a key aspect of your technical skills that were never previously
> >> confirmed.
> >>
> >> Anyone with the skills that you demonstrated that never saw the x86
> >> language ever before would be able to correctly analyze the execution
> >> trace of the input to H(P,P) and confirm that it is correct.
> >>
> > P calls H. But H, as you have described it, doesn't call P. It emulates it.
> > But the trace seems to show a call. The infinite cycle detector, as you
> > have described it is based on a call.
> >
> > So it's unclear what is going on.
> It is a little annoying that I have to say this 150 times and people
> can't remember that I said it even once. I take this as head games.
> H(P,P) emulates its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.
>
So it's nested emulation. Not nested calls.
>
> Because H only emulates the first 7 instructions of its input H cannot
> possibly have any effect on the behavior of this input. This means that
> there is no need to see the 237 pages of the execution trace of H.
>
H emulates 7 instructions of P. Then P calls H. So what does H do at
this point? Does it call H, or emulate H?
>
> Furthermore we can easily verify that these first 7 instructions of P
> are emulated correctly because the execution trace provided by H exactly
> matches the behavior specified by these first 7 instructions of P.
>
Fair enough, the first seven instructions of P are correct.
>
> > And it turns out that the traces are edited.
> I removed some of the extraneous debug information about the memory
> allocation. A normal execution trace would not show this. I changed the
> source-code so that it doesn't display this.
>
> My purpose in providing the memory allocation information was to prove
> that there really are several independent processes. H(P,P) emulating
> its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.
>
If it's nested emulations, the processes are not independent, however.
If you trace the program in a debugger, you get the top level emulator,
which doesn't look a bit like the code it is emulating, even if it is emulating
itself.
>
> > So is the second part of the trace the output of the emulated emulator?
> >
> The first 7 lines are emulated by the emulator, the second 7 lines are
> emulated by the emulated emulator.
>
So the first 7 line are output by the emulator written directly to output.
The second 7 lines are output by the program that the emulator is emulating.
So how does the emulator know that this output is "execution trace?"
to use it for infinite loop detection? Since the emulated program could be anything,
it could be completely unrelated output, surely?
>
> > That seems the best explanation, but we can't be sure that this is going on.
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

<8yKhK.16421$zgr9.14565@fx13.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32671&group=comp.theory#32671

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx13.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 161
Message-ID: <8yKhK.16421$zgr9.14565@fx13.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 07:01:24 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 8187
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 11:01 UTC

On 5/20/22 1:45 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>
>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>> execution trace,
>
> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that H(p,P)==0
> is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold more details.
>
>
>
> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>
> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>

Nop,e but you seem to be too dumb to unddrstand so acting like a 2 year old.

The first 7 lines are correct.

P then calls H, so the trace MUST show the actions of H.

That is NOT just calling P, as the trace implies, as then it couldn't
abort that 'simulation' that it is doing (by executing).

>
>
> #include <stdint.h>
> #define u32 uint32_t
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
> _main()
> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

LIE Begins HERE.

> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

Nope, LIE, because it isn't what actually happens.

You have yet to provide the actual basis for the rule you are using,
because it doesn't in the way you are using it.

The shows that your argument is nothing but a fantasy in your own mind,
and shows that you are a hypocrite, as you are claiming to be working in
a system that requires somethihg to be actually proved to be used, but
you have NO actual proof for your claims.

You claim things are true bythe meaning of the words, but you have
admitted you don't even know that actual meaning of the words, and you
never even actually try to prove a sentence means what you say looking
at the actual applicable defintions.

YOU ARE JUST A DAMNED LIAR.

>
> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
> "Input_Halts = "
> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> Input_Halts = 0
> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>
>
>
>
>
>> or you could publish H itself (yes, an extraordinary
>> suggestion!).  Until you do, you have nothing but a fake trace and an H
>> that does not decide the halting of the key computation.
>>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<87ilq05usu.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32672&group=comp.theory#32672

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 12:04:49 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 113
Message-ID: <87ilq05usu.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cdab4b3beb056ab549fca8770562cf4a";
logging-data="29339"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18/BWrxY/kbF2hvV64tl4BbdMr20be30iA="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:jJvD/R92PJFEAyT64y3zrGzBuOY=
sha1:NaGElAIADZR8UYHNwBtbW92Z3BU=
X-BSB-Auth: 1.52ed1e2cd7d2e55decb4.20220520120449BST.87ilq05usu.fsf@bsb.me.uk
 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 11:04 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>>>>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>>>>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>>>>>> Unlikely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pXYqL
>>>>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>>>>> the machine moves to state q,
>>>>>>> replaces X with Y and
>>>>>>> moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>>> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>>> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>>>>>> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>>>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>>>>> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>>>>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
>>>>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
>>>>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>>>>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>
>>>> I see nothing vague about it. δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
>>>> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
>>>> and enter state q.
>>>
>>> That does not actually work.
>> It's the definition of the state transition function. It is what it
>> is. Here is the TM you talked about (paren.tm) accepting a string:
>> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
>> 0 ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
>> 1 _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
>> 2 ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
>> 3 _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
>> 4 ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
>> 5 ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
>> 6 ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
>> 7 _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
>> 8 ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
>> 9 _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
>> 10 ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
>> 11 ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
>> 12 __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
>> 13 ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
>> 14 ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
>> 15 _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
>> 16 ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
>> 17 ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
>> 18 ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
>> accept after 18 steps.
>
> I can't [quite] tell what that says.

If you want to know, just ask.

> The original TM.exe provides a good trace.
>
> tm> read tm paren

I don't need to see any more traces. My interpreter has a trace format
command-line option so I can generate this sort of trace if you find it
easier to follow. I prefer the compact form myself (obviously, since I
made it the default).

>> What states does your interpreter show the TM going through?

This was the point of giving a trace. How does your interpretation of
what you see as the imprecise specification differ from this? If can't
interpret the specification, you'll get stuck right away.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<dEKhK.1309$tLd9.995@fx98.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32673&group=comp.theory#32673

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx98.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<6286fb27$0$26336$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<bcqdnY4_R-EmYBv_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
<6287004d$0$22063$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnRzbVvhHnRr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
<62870186$0$8522$426a34cc@news.free.fr>
<xL-dnR_bVvhhnBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <xL-dnR_bVvhhnBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <dEKhK.1309$tLd9.995@fx98.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 07:07:52 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 3028
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 11:07 UTC

On 5/19/22 10:50 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 9:48 PM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 9:43 PM, Python wrote:
>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, Python wrote:
>>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified
>>>>>>> and it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on
>>>>>>> which input symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may consider that you are too dumb for this task. Just saying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Objectively I am a genius.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter, Peter, Peter, ... You just failed miserabily on a routine
>>>> exercise (not exam!) for graduate students, come on!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have been ill, nitwit.
>>>
>>
>> You've always been, idiot.
>>
>>
>
> As an objective fact, I am a genius. Any opinion that disagrees with a
> fact is necessarily incorrect.
>

You are a legend in your own mind and will be remembered (if remembered
at all) for being an idiot.

A Genius can figure out how to explain his ideas to someone with a
lessor mind.

You can't, you can only reiterate your incorrect logic and try saying it
over and over.

You are so locked into your prejudices and misconceptions that you have
lost touch with reality.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<8SKhK.460$3Gzd.56@fx96.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32674&group=comp.theory#32674

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx96.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 294
Message-ID: <8SKhK.460$3Gzd.56@fx96.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 07:22:44 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 10738
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 11:22 UTC

On 5/19/22 11:22 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the
>>>>>>>>>> trace does
>>>>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing.  There's nothing
>>>>>>>>>> left here.
>>>>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>>>>> checking TM?  Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be
>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise
>>>>>>> enough.
>>>>>> Unlikely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pXYqL
>>>>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>>>>>      the machine moves to state q,
>>>>>>>      replaces X with Y and
>>>>>>>      moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      void move_left();    // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as
>>>>>>> needed
>>>>>>>      void move_right();   // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as
>>>>>>> needed
>>>>>>>      void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>>>>>>      tape_element Read()       { return
>>>>>>> this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>>>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>>>>>         according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's called a bug.  I am amazed that your reaction to the fact
>>>>>> that your
>>>>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is
>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>>>>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>
>>>> I see nothing vague about it.  δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
>>>> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
>>>> and enter state q.
>>>
>>> That does not actually work.
>>
>> It's the definition of the state transition function.  It is what it
>> is.  Here is the TM you talked about (paren.tm) accepting a string:
>>
>> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
>>         0
>> ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
>>         1
>> _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
>>         2
>> ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
>>         3
>> _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
>>         4
>> ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
>>         5
>> ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
>>         6
>> ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
>>         7
>> _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
>>         8
>> ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
>>         9
>> _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
>>        10
>> ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
>>        11
>> ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
>>        12
>> __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
>>        13
>> ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
>>        14
>> ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
>>        15
>> _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
>>        16
>> ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
>>        17
>> ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
>>        18
>> ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
>> accept after 18 steps.
>>
>
> I can't quote tell what that says. The original TM.exe provides a good
> trace.

Not even knowing his program I can read it.

In the middle is the current state in brackets []

to the left of that is the tape to the left of the head.

to the right of that is the tape under the head and to the right.

Thus the first line says we started in state 0, with a tape that says ((()))

And the first instruction stayed in state 0, and moved to the write
without changing the tape (or writing a ( over the existing ( )
>
>
> tm> read tm paren
> tm> set tape ((()))
> tm> set trace tape
> tm> go
>
> ((()))
> ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0((0R

We are in 0, tape is ( quint is 0((0R
so change the tape at this spot to ( (no change), go to state 0, and
move tape to the right.

> ((()))
> ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0((0R
> ((()))
> ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0((0R
> ((()))
>   ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0)A1L

A change, state 0 with tape being ), this quint is 0)A1L
so switch to state 1, replace the ) with an A and move left

>
> (((A))
>  ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1(A0R

Now in state 1, with tape being (, this quint is 1(A0R

go back to state 0, change the ( to an A, and move left.

That is action exactly per the specifications, even if you don't
understand them.

> ((AA))
>   ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> ((AA))
>     ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0)A1L
> ((AAA)
>    ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1AA1L
> ((AAA)
>   ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1AA1L
> ((AAA)
>  ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1(A0R
> (AAAA)
>   ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> (AAAA)
>    ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> (AAAA)
>     ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> (AAAA)
>      ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0)A1L
> (AAAAA
>     ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1AA1L
> (AAAAA
>    ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1AA1L
> (AAAAA
>   ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1AA1L
> (AAAAA
>  ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1AA1L
> (AAAAA
> ^
>     state: 1,  next quint: 1(A0R
> AAAAAA
>  ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> AAAAAA
>   ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> AAAAAA
>    ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> AAAAAA
>     ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> AAAAAA
>      ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0AA0R
> AAAAAA
>       ^
>     state: 0,  next quint: 0  2L
> AAAAAA
>      ^
>     state: 2,  next quint: 2AA2L
> AAAAAA
>     ^
>     state: 2,  next quint: 2AA2L
> AAAAAA
>    ^
>     state: 2,  next quint: 2AA2L
> AAAAAA
>   ^
>     state: 2,  next quint: 2AA2L
> AAAAAA
>  ^
>     state: 2,  next quint: 2AA2L
> AAAAAA
> ^
>     state: 2,  next quint: 2AA2L
>  AAAAAA
> ^
>     state: 2,  next quint: 2  YR
>  AAAAAA
>  ^
>     state: Y,  next quint: (none)
> Halted in final state Y
> tm>
>
>
>> What states does your interpreter show the TM going through?
>>
>>>>> The second spec says transition specifies this:
>>>>>       Quintuple QT(current_state->state, Tape.Read());
>>>>> and that does not work.
>>>>
>>>> People will help you debug the code if you post it.  And if you think
>>>> there is something vague, ask for clarification.
>>>
>>> I want to do this only my own.
>>
>> I wish you well.
>
> It has my highest development priority.
> Personal matters have a higher priority.
>
> I have been just a little too weak to handle those personal matters.
> I expect to be better by tomorrow when my immune system starts to
> return. There are two days in every chemo cycle when I have zero immune
> system. Yesterday was one of these days.
>
>>
>>>> The code fragment you posted some while back was all wrong, but I
>>>> imagine you've moved on from that now.
>>
>
>


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)

<877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32675&group=comp.theory#32675

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 12:25:19 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cdab4b3beb056ab549fca8770562cf4a";
logging-data="29339"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18TvFPfc+koT3OYzERwvVrxezsBeWpdD2k="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:NhUjBZg5TYrJLp910Febj7ZBLQc=
sha1:JVgM7xZ6QITCEpJD/j+8NoPGINw=
X-BSB-Auth: 1.9d371da59304d3e1c44b.20220520122519BST.877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk
 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 11:25 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>
>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>> execution trace,
>
> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
> more details [would not help].

(Your correction added)

Yours traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
people you are being honest about the output.

Anyway, it's no skin off my nose. H fails at the task you once set
yourself -- the one the word cares about -- so finding out what H is
actually deciding is just an amusing distraction.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<pYydnUF1xoZ9ORr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32677&group=comp.theory#32677

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:25:36 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:25:35 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<kZadnWtOuoZgSRj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<182fe08f-27bd-4ffd-abf0-f77a7b2ccdden@googlegroups.com>
<CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<b6d2612a-1a1e-4c32-8f1e-be89c0a12a1fn@googlegroups.com>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <b6d2612a-1a1e-4c32-8f1e-be89c0a12a1fn@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <pYydnUF1xoZ9ORr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 161
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-OvaD6+rwJriB9b3NrWQxO/v3EA3JPAbZsFXn0/jPq5kATHkUlxU4LnzMcUI0LL1paEgEDv5Ogo3grRK!sRlGg5tiR9KgpiUwPVXvvahzjYDpJpFrBrYUc6jbY2VDT2LZRee7N7L+la7yJ2ZqByFpFzl48Jc=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 9337
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:25 UTC

On 5/20/2022 3:29 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 16:41:21 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 3:29 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:26:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/18/2022 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking about.
>>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what, but
>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on. I think
>>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is fundamentally honest
>>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does. It's just
>>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating" and H
>>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, "if". So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify editing the
>>>>>> trace? You should be clear on this point.
>>>>>
>>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
>>>>>>> PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
>>>>>>> IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I want to see a trace of the function you claim have,
>>>>>
>>>>> IF YOU CAN'T TELL FROM THE TRACE THAT H PRODUCES THAT H CORRECTLY
>>>>> DECIDES ITS INPUT YOU SIMPLY ARE NOT ANYWHERE IN THE BALLPARK SMART
>>>>> ENOUGH TO CORRECTLY ANALYZE MY WORK.
>>>>>
>>>>> I AM MUCH MORE APT TO BELIEVE DISHONEST RATHER THAN STUPID.
>>>> I only want to treat you fairly and with honesty. Now that you have
>>>> finally demonstrated excellent programming skills I finally have a basis
>>>> to know a key aspect of your technical skills that were never previously
>>>> confirmed.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone with the skills that you demonstrated that never saw the x86
>>>> language ever before would be able to correctly analyze the execution
>>>> trace of the input to H(P,P) and confirm that it is correct.
>>>>
>>> P calls H. But H, as you have described it, doesn't call P. It emulates it.
>>> But the trace seems to show a call. The infinite cycle detector, as you
>>> have described it is based on a call.
>>>
>>> So it's unclear what is going on.
>> It is a little annoying that I have to say this 150 times and people
>> can't remember that I said it even once. I take this as head games.
>> H(P,P) emulates its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.
>>
> So it's nested emulation. Not nested calls.

H(P,P) emulates P(P) that calls H(P,P) within this emulation that
creates the first nested emulation within an emulation that emulates
P(P). Here is the execution trace of P for all that:

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

>>
>> Because H only emulates the first 7 instructions of its input H cannot
>> possibly have any effect on the behavior of this input. This means that
>> there is no need to see the 237 pages of the execution trace of H.
>>
> H emulates 7 instructions of P. Then P calls H. So what does H do at
> this point? Does it call H, or emulate H?

Already described above.

>>
>> Furthermore we can easily verify that these first 7 instructions of P
>> are emulated correctly because the execution trace provided by H exactly
>> matches the behavior specified by these first 7 instructions of P.
>>
> Fair enough, the first seven instructions of P are correct.

Good, and so are the next 7.

>>
>>> And it turns out that the traces are edited.
>> I removed some of the extraneous debug information about the memory
>> allocation. A normal execution trace would not show this. I changed the
>> source-code so that it doesn't display this.
>>
>> My purpose in providing the memory allocation information was to prove
>> that there really are several independent processes. H(P,P) emulating
>> its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.
>>
> If it's nested emulations, the processes are not independent, however.
> If you trace the program in a debugger, you get the top level emulator,
> which doesn't look a bit like the code it is emulating, even if it is emulating
> itself.
>>
>>> So is the second part of the trace the output of the emulated emulator?
>>>
>> The first 7 lines are emulated by the emulator, the second 7 lines are
>> emulated by the emulated emulator.
>>
> So the first 7 line are output by the emulator written directly to output.
> The second 7 lines are output by the program that the emulator is emulating.
> So how does the emulator know that this output is "execution trace?"

Programs to not have sentience.

> to use it for infinite loop detection? Since the emulated program could be anything,
> it could be completely unrelated output, surely?

The Halt decider creates its own execution trace and uses the trace that
it creates.

>>
>>> That seems the best explanation, but we can't be sure that this is going on.
>>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<pYydnUB1xoYCOBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32678&group=comp.theory#32678

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:28:46 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:28:46 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ilq05usu.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <87ilq05usu.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <pYydnUB1xoYCOBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 120
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-yrE7Jhx8kbQcU7RAXrc3KpsMN8GBuSz1nyNw9qz/RuIpmor3Jw1GeEtw5O8DwtF96anq5ofFD/w73Z9!wYaUhlLGZGbVWNX0nXJdCReQpmYCD+ANiPPu/MKVUuoqbXk65r1Xq2LUSkja2bR50iakJfqRYdA=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 7715
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:28 UTC

On 5/20/2022 6:04 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the trace does
>>>>>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing. There's nothing left here.
>>>>>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator... How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I have been
>>>>>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>>>>>> checking TM? Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be that the
>>>>>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise enough.
>>>>>>> Unlikely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>>>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> pXYqL
>>>>>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>>>>>> the machine moves to state q,
>>>>>>>> replaces X with Y and
>>>>>>>> moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> void move_left(); // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>>>> void move_right(); // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0); as needed
>>>>>>>> void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) = Y; };
>>>>>>>> tape_element Read() { return this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>>>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape then
>>>>>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>>>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>>>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>>>>>> according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM on the
>>>>>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's called a bug. I am amazed that your reaction to the fact that your
>>>>>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is wrong.
>>>>>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>>>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which input
>>>>>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see nothing vague about it. δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in state
>>>>> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
>>>>> and enter state q.
>>>>
>>>> That does not actually work.
>>> It's the definition of the state transition function. It is what it
>>> is. Here is the TM you talked about (paren.tm) accepting a string:
>>> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
>>> 0 ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
>>> 1 _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
>>> 2 ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
>>> 3 _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
>>> 4 ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
>>> 5 ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
>>> 6 ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
>>> 7 _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
>>> 8 ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
>>> 9 _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
>>> 10 ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
>>> 11 ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
>>> 12 __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
>>> 13 ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
>>> 14 ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
>>> 15 _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
>>> 16 ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
>>> 17 ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
>>> 18 ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
>>> accept after 18 steps.
>>
>> I can't [quite] tell what that says.
>
> If you want to know, just ask.
>
>> The original TM.exe provides a good trace.
>>
>> tm> read tm paren
>
> I don't need to see any more traces. My interpreter has a trace format
> command-line option so I can generate this sort of trace if you find it
> easier to follow. I prefer the compact form myself (obviously, since I
> made it the default).
>
>>> What states does your interpreter show the TM going through?
>
> This was the point of giving a trace. How does your interpretation of
> what you see as the imprecise specification differ from this? If can't
> interpret the specification, you'll get stuck right away.
>

My TM gets the first 4 state transitions correctly and then diverges
from TM.exe

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<87v8u0466n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32679&group=comp.theory#32679

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 15:41:52 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <87v8u0466n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<8SKhK.460$3Gzd.56@fx96.iad>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cdab4b3beb056ab549fca8770562cf4a";
logging-data="29588"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+8cr2S+56xoqvII5jwvRfIzJ64hM9/xKc="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:cTOs6NMIK4DFP/Qnf17Kj9PoBXQ=
sha1:GAMA4DLy6sXkKYR8Dltlq399NhM=
X-BSB-Auth: 1.a7c17afcd5e3356daedc.20220520154152BST.87v8u0466n.fsf@bsb.me.uk
 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:41 UTC

Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:

> On 5/19/22 11:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:

>>> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
>>>         0 ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
>>>         1 _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
>>>         2 ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
>>>         3 _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
>>>         4 ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
>>>         5 ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
>>>         6 ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
>>>         7 _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
>>>         8 ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
>>>         9 _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
>>>        10 ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
>>>        11 ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
>>>        12 __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
>>>        13 ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
>>>        14 ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
>>>        15 _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
>>>        16 ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
>>>        17 ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
>>>        18 ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
>>> accept after 18 steps.
>>>
>> I can't quote tell what that says. The original TM.exe provides a good
>> trace.
>
> Not even knowing his program I can read it.
>
> In the middle is the current state in brackets []
>
> to the left of that is the tape to the left of the head.
>
> to the right of that is the tape under the head and to the right.

The current symbol is in the []s as well: [0|(].

--
Ben.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)

<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32680&group=comp.theory#32680

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:51:13 -0500
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 09:51:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
In-Reply-To: <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 147
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
X-Trace: sv3-HAOes6gsZkhTT3PNDr66Vz4ZWmi/UT0btzNBbELnQ0V1etBvZaHMpRYKZAhSaY1YHbw4hSLb7LSCuvO!/DxXG/ON1+dRjabit5kMmOxKRzgl1Ytzyv452LMOOweDTcnjVh6pmxjDkjRmm7wfZUIxyjnpaVs=
X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com
X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 7791
 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 14:51 UTC

On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>
>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>> execution trace,
>>
>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>> more details [would not help].
>
> (Your correction added)
>
> Yours traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
> people you are being honest about the output.
>

I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.

They would be able to confirm that the execution trace of the first 7
instructions of the input to H(P,P) is the execution trace of P.
Malcolm already did that.

When I tell them that H only performs a pure simulation of its input
then these smart non-liars would be able to confirm that the next 7
lines of the execution trace of P are the correct 7 lines for this
nested simulation of P.

These smart non-liars would know that they don't need the 237 pages of
execution trace or the source-code of H to definitively determine that
H(P,P)==0 is correct. They would be able to see the P does specify
infinitely nested simulation that never reaches its own final state at
machine address: [0000136c].

#include <stdint.h>
#define u32 uint32_t

void P(u32 x)
{ if (H(x, x))
HERE: goto HERE;
return;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
}

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]

_main()
[00001372](01) 55 push ebp
[00001373](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001375](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137a](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
[0000137f](05) e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001384](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001387](01) 50 push eax
[00001388](05) 6823040000 push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
[0000138d](05) e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
[00001392](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001395](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
[00001397](01) 5d pop ebp
[00001398](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]

machine stack stack machine assembly
address address data code language
======== ======== ======== ========= =============
....[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55 push ebp
....[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
....[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.

....[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50 push eax
....[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
"Input_Halts = "
---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
Input_Halts = 0
....[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08
....[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax
....[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d pop ebp
....[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3 ret
Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages

> Anyway, it's no skin off my nose. H fails at the task you once set
> yourself -- the one the word cares about -- so finding out what H is
> actually deciding is just an amusing distraction.
>

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<87pmk8455i.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32681&group=comp.theory#32681

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 16:04:09 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <87pmk8455i.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ilq05usu.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<pYydnUB1xoYCOBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cdab4b3beb056ab549fca8770562cf4a";
logging-data="29588"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/twfh2ucvxn8spIWsWcLA9DiCng7DnD90="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:wKNXi+CGrQMwJR0IgWdyh9B2Vyw=
sha1:9vli5NqDNyLh6KoON7iwxXsTCMA=
X-BSB-Auth: 1.7a8f60c316f94eda16d1.20220520160409BST.87pmk8455i.fsf@bsb.me.uk
 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:04 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/20/2022 6:04 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:

>>>>> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> Here is the TM you talked about (paren.tm) accepting a string:
>>>> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
>>>> 0 ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
>>>> 1 _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
>>>> 2 ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
>>>> 3 _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
>>>> 4 ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
>>>> 5 ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
>>>> 6 ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
>>>> 7 _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
>>>> 8 ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
>>>> 9 _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
>>>> 10 ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
>>>> 11 ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
>>>> 12 __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
>>>> 13 ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
>>>> 14 ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
>>>> 15 _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
>>>> 16 ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
>>>> 17 ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
>>>> 18 ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
>>>> accept after 18 steps.

>>>> What states does your interpreter show the TM going through?
>>
>> This was the point of giving a trace. How does your interpretation of
>> what you see as the imprecise specification differ from this? If can't
>> interpret the specification, you'll get stuck right away.
>
> My TM gets the first 4 state transitions correctly and then diverges
> from TM.exe

But is there any doubt about what the correct action is? You implied
there was some ambiguity in the specification. My suggestion is that this
is just a bug.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]

<66OhK.99$xZtb.80@fx41.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32682&group=comp.theory#32682

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx41.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<kZadnWtOuoZgSRj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<182fe08f-27bd-4ffd-abf0-f77a7b2ccdden@googlegroups.com>
<CM-dnREoLoiE-Bv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<b6d2612a-1a1e-4c32-8f1e-be89c0a12a1fn@googlegroups.com>
<pYydnUF1xoZ9ORr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <pYydnUF1xoZ9ORr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 207
Message-ID: <66OhK.99$xZtb.80@fx41.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 11:04:34 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 10175
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:04 UTC

On 5/20/22 10:25 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 3:29 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 16:41:21 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 3:29 AM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, 19 May 2022 at 06:26:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/18/2022 8:20 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 7:57 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/18/2022 10:31 AM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored
>>>>>>>>>> at:212352
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>>>>>>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 //
>>>>>>>>>> call H
>>>>>>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
>>>>>>>>> This can't be the trace of the function you have been talking
>>>>>>>>> about.
>>>>>>>>> The H you claim to have simulates something (no one cares what,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> something) so the code at the start of H should be setting up and
>>>>>>>>> entering a simulator.
>>>>>>>>> You've admitted you edit some traces which is really not on. I
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> you should stop posting them until you can be honest about them.
>>>>>>>>> Mind you, my personally guess is that the trace is
>>>>>>>>> fundamentally honest
>>>>>>>>> about you've been pulling our legs about what H really does.
>>>>>>>>> It's just
>>>>>>>>> the top-level x86 emulator that does that does any "simulating"
>>>>>>>>> and H
>>>>>>>>> really does call P which calls H which calls P...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ON THE BASIS OF THE X86 MACHINE CODE PROVIDED FOR P AND THE
>>>>>>>> EXECUTION TRACE OF P PROVIDED BY H IT IS EASY TO SEE THAT
>>>>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P IS THE EXECUTION TRACE OF P THAT
>>>>>>>> WOULD OCCUR IF H PERFORMED A PURE SIMULATION OF THE FIRST
>>>>>>>> 13 INSTRUCTIONS OF P.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah, "if". So you admit that you are tracing an H this is not the one
>>>>>>> you have been describing, or are you just trying to justify
>>>>>>> editing the
>>>>>>> trace? You should be clear on this point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THE TRACE OF H IS IRRELEVANT, WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BECAUSE OF THIS THE INSISTENCE ON SEEING THE HUNDREDS OF
>>>>>>>> PAGES OF THE EXECUTION TRACE OF H OR THE SOURCE-CODE OF H
>>>>>>>> IS A JACKASS MOVE THAT IS ONLY PLAYING HEAD GAMES.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I want to see a trace of the function you claim have,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IF YOU CAN'T TELL FROM THE TRACE THAT H PRODUCES THAT H CORRECTLY
>>>>>> DECIDES ITS INPUT YOU SIMPLY ARE NOT ANYWHERE IN THE BALLPARK SMART
>>>>>> ENOUGH TO CORRECTLY ANALYZE MY WORK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I AM MUCH MORE APT TO BELIEVE DISHONEST RATHER THAN STUPID.
>>>>> I only want to treat you fairly and with honesty. Now that you have
>>>>> finally demonstrated excellent programming skills I finally have a
>>>>> basis
>>>>> to know a key aspect of your technical skills that were never
>>>>> previously
>>>>> confirmed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone with the skills that you demonstrated that never saw the x86
>>>>> language ever before would be able to correctly analyze the execution
>>>>> trace of the input to H(P,P) and confirm that it is correct.
>>>>>
>>>> P calls H. But H, as you have described it, doesn't call P. It
>>>> emulates it.
>>>> But the trace seems to show a call. The infinite cycle detector, as you
>>>> have described it is based on a call.
>>>>
>>>> So it's unclear what is going on.
>>> It is a little annoying that I have to say this 150 times and people
>>> can't remember that I said it even once. I take this as head games.
>>> H(P,P) emulates its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.
>>>
>> So it's nested emulation. Not nested calls.
>
> H(P,P) emulates P(P) that calls H(P,P) within this emulation that
> creates the first nested emulation within an emulation that emulates
> P(P). Here is the execution trace of P for all that:
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

ERROR IN TRACE.

call 000011a2 should be followed by a trace of the instruction at 000011a2

Your emulator is broken.

> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
>
>>>
>>> Because H only emulates the first 7 instructions of its input H cannot
>>> possibly have any effect on the behavior of this input. This means that
>>> there is no need to see the 237 pages of the execution trace of H.
>>>
>> H emulates 7 instructions of P. Then P calls H. So what does H do at
>> this point? Does it call H, or emulate H?
>
> Already described above.
>

You SAY it emulates.

Your TRACES says that it calls.

>>>
>>> Furthermore we can easily verify that these first 7 instructions of P
>>> are emulated correctly because the execution trace provided by H exactly
>>> matches the behavior specified by these first 7 instructions of P.
>>>
>> Fair enough, the first seven instructions of P are correct.
>
> Good, and so are the next 7.

Nope, call 000011a2 is not folowed by a actual execution of the
instruction at 000901352

If H calls P, then it is only lying by omitting information.

If H actually emmulates P, then the trace is just a total fabrication.

>
>>>
>>>> And it turns out that the traces are edited.
>>> I removed some of the extraneous debug information about the memory
>>> allocation. A normal execution trace would not show this. I changed the
>>> source-code so that it doesn't display this.
>>>
>>> My purpose in providing the memory allocation information was to prove
>>> that there really are several independent processes. H(P,P) emulating
>>> its input that calls H(P,P) that emulates its input.
>>>
>> If it's nested emulations, the processes are not independent, however.
>> If you trace the program in a debugger, you get the top level emulator,
>> which doesn't look a bit like the code it is emulating, even if it is
>> emulating
>> itself.
>>>
>>>> So is the second part of the trace the output of the emulated emulator?
>>>>
>>> The first 7 lines are emulated by the emulator, the second 7 lines are
>>> emulated by the emulated emulator.
>>>
>> So the first 7 line are output by the emulator written directly to
>> output.
>> The second 7 lines are output by the program that the emulator is
>> emulating.
>> So how does the emulator know that this output is "execution trace?"
>
> Programs to not have sentience.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)

<FaOhK.2210$Rvub.570@fx35.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32683&group=comp.theory#32683

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid2!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx35.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 169
Message-ID: <FaOhK.2210$Rvub.570@fx35.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 11:09:24 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 8733
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:09 UTC

On 5/20/22 10:51 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>
>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>>> execution trace,
>>>
>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>>> more details [would not help].
>>
>> (Your correction added)
>>
>> Yours traces are edited.  No one will believe them until you post the
>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>> people you are being honest about the output.
>>
>
> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.

You mean replace yourself?

The other people are not lying, you are.

>
> They would be able to confirm that the execution trace of the first 7
> instructions of the input to H(P,P) is the execution trace of P.
> Malcolm already did that.
>
> When I tell them that H only performs a pure simulation of its input
> then these smart non-liars would be able to confirm that the next 7
> lines of the execution trace of P are the correct 7 lines for this
> nested simulation of P.

LIE. H does NOT do a "Pure Simulation" by the meaning of the words,
since it can abort its simulation.

There is no such thing as Conditional Unconditional processing.

The is no actual execution of P inside the simulation done by the H
called by P, so reporting that is just a LIE.

>
> These smart non-liars would know that they don't need the 237 pages of
> execution trace or the source-code of H to definitively determine that
> H(P,P)==0 is correct. They would be able to see the P does specify
> infinitely nested simulation that never reaches its own final state at
> machine address: [0000136c].

No, we just need to simple examination of the code to see that H(P,P)
must be wrong to say P(P) is non-halting when it returns 0.

If it isn't answering about P(P), then YOU are LYING that H is a Halting
Decider.

>
>
> #include <stdint.h>
> #define u32 uint32_t
>
> void P(u32 x)
> {
>   if (H(x, x))
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
> _main()
> [00001372](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001373](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001375](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137a](05)  6852130000      push 00001352 // push P
> [0000137f](05)  e81efeffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001384](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001387](01)  50              push eax
> [00001388](05)  6823040000      push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> [0000138d](05)  e8e0f0ffff      call 00000472 // call Output
> [00001392](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001395](02)  33c0            xor eax,eax
> [00001397](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [00001398](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>
>     machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>     address   address   data      code       language
>     ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> ...[00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
> ...[00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> ...[0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

BEGIN THE BIG LIE.

> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> H sees that P is calling the same function from the same machine address
> with identical parameters, twice in sequence. This is the infinite
> recursion (infinitely nested simulation) non-halting behavior pattern.
>
> ...[00001384][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001387][0010229a][00000000] 50         push eax
> ...[00001388][00102296][00000423] 6823040000 push 00000423 //
> "Input_Halts = "
> ---[0000138d][00102296][00000423] e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> Input_Halts = 0
> ...[00001392][0010229e][00000000] 83c408     add esp,+08
> ...[00001395][0010229e][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> ...[00001397][001022a2][00100000] 5d         pop ebp
> ...[00001398][001022a6][00000004] c3         ret
> Number_of_User_Instructions(1)
> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages
>
>
>> Anyway, it's no skin off my nose.  H fails at the task you once set
>> yourself -- the one the word cares about -- so finding out what H is
>> actually deciding is just an amusing distraction.
>>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<1cOhK.2211$Rvub.1290@fx35.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32684&group=comp.theory#32684

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx35.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc> <t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ilq05usu.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <pYydnUB1xoYCOBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <pYydnUB1xoYCOBr_nZ2dnUU7_8xh4p2d@giganews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 152
Message-ID: <1cOhK.2211$Rvub.1290@fx35.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 11:10:53 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 8086
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:10 UTC

On 5/20/22 10:28 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:04 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 5/19/2022 8:58 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/2022 7:23 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P) == false is wrong about the halting of P(P) and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> trace does
>>>>>>>>>>>> not back-up what you say your H is doing.  There's nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>> left here.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But there's always the TM emulator...  How's that coming along?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are about two lines of code that are out-of-place. I
>>>>>>>>>>> have been
>>>>>>>>>>> ill and had other issues that I had to deal with.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So maybe another month or so and you can start to write a parity
>>>>>>>>>> checking TM?  Those out-of-place lines can be a bugger to find
>>>>>>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I planned on having this done by now. The problem seems to be
>>>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>>> specification of the state transition function is not precise
>>>>>>>>> enough.
>>>>>>>> Unlikely.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A transition rule of a Turing machine has the following form
>>>>>>>>> δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> pXYqL
>>>>>>>>> This means that from state p, on reading the symbol X on the tape,
>>>>>>>>>       the machine moves to state q,
>>>>>>>>>       replaces X with Y and
>>>>>>>>>       moves the tape head to the left.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>       void move_left();    // Tape_Head--; Left.push_back(0);
>>>>>>>>> as needed
>>>>>>>>>       void move_right();   // Tape_Head++; Left.push_back(0);
>>>>>>>>> as needed
>>>>>>>>>       void Write(tape_element Y){ this->operator[](Tape_Head) =
>>>>>>>>> Y; };
>>>>>>>>>       tape_element Read()       { return
>>>>>>>>> this->operator[](Tape_Head); };
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example, the quintuple 'SCcsm' is executed by the machine:
>>>>>>>>> If it is in state 'S' and is reading the symbol 'C' on the tape
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> (a) make a transition to state 's'.
>>>>>>>>> (b) overwrite the symbol 'C' on the tape with the symbol 'c'.
>>>>>>>>> (c) move the tape reading head one symbol to the left or right
>>>>>>>>>          according to whether 'm' is 'l' or 'r'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I implement it exactly as specified the behavior of my TM
>>>>>>>>> on the
>>>>>>>>> Paren.tm is not the same as the original TM.exe.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's called a bug.  I am amazed that your reaction to the fact
>>>>>>>> that your
>>>>>>>> program does not do what it should is that the specification is
>>>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>>>> It's just a common or garden bug.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do all of the steps in the exact order that they are specified and
>>>>>>> it does not work. The problem is that the spec is vague on which
>>>>>>> input
>>>>>>> symbol is required for the state transition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see nothing vague about it.  δ(p, X) = (q, Y, L) means that in
>>>>>> state
>>>>>> p, with X at the tape head, replace the X with Y, move the head left
>>>>>> and enter state q.
>>>>>
>>>>> That does not actually work.
>>>> It's the definition of the state transition function.  It is what it
>>>> is.  Here is the TM you talked about (paren.tm) accepting a string:
>>>> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
>>>>          0
>>>> ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
>>>>          1
>>>> _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
>>>>          2
>>>> ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
>>>>          3
>>>> _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
>>>>          4
>>>> ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
>>>>          5
>>>> ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
>>>>          6
>>>> ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
>>>>          7
>>>> _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
>>>>          8
>>>> ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
>>>>          9
>>>> _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
>>>>         10
>>>> ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
>>>>         11
>>>> ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
>>>>         12
>>>> __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
>>>>         13
>>>> ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
>>>>         14
>>>> ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
>>>>         15
>>>> _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
>>>>         16
>>>> ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
>>>>         17
>>>> ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
>>>>         18
>>>> ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
>>>> accept after 18 steps.
>>>
>>> I can't [quite] tell what that says.
>>
>> If you want to know, just ask.
>>
>>> The original TM.exe provides a good trace.
>>>
>>> tm> read tm paren
>>
>> I don't need to see any more traces.  My interpreter has a trace format
>> command-line option so I can generate this sort of trace if you find it
>> easier to follow.  I prefer the compact form myself (obviously, since I
>> made it the default).
>>
>>>> What states does your interpreter show the TM going through?
>>
>> This was the point of giving a trace.  How does your interpretation of
>> what you see as the imprecise specification differ from this?  If can't
>> interpret the specification, you'll get stuck right away.
>>
>
> My TM gets the first 4 state transitions correctly and then diverges
> from TM.exe
>
So you know at what point your bug appears. My guess is still that you
aren't saving the tuple to execute all atomically.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)

<87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32685&group=comp.theory#32685

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory comp.ai.philosophy sci.logic
Followup: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)
Followup-To: comp.theory
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 16:12:05 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me>
<-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<1K6dnX9xHfmtMxv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
<87bkvt6n3s.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<yeCdnWc-Ja14txr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
<877d6g5tuo.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cdab4b3beb056ab549fca8770562cf4a";
logging-data="29588"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/MNhi2Lq66MEvICCDI6Qov8gCZcuayIo8="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:I6PEg3UGgi5Y3g6C4UtsTdfcc50=
sha1:N6EqLhS8Odrd/Jhfwki5oklD2rw=
X-BSB-Auth: 1.6bdd8bbd800347b7c81f.20220520161205BST.87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk
 by: Ben - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:12 UTC

olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

> On 5/20/2022 6:25 AM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 5/19/2022 7:53 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> ONE CAN VERIFY THAT THE EXECUTION TRACE IS CORRECT ON THE BASIS THAT
>>>>> THE EXECUTION TRACE OF THE INPUT TO H(P,P) CORRESPONDS TO
>>>>> THE BEHAVIOR SPECIFIED BY THE X86 SOURCE-CODE OF P
>>>>> WHERE H(P,P) CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>> THAT CALLS H(P,P) THAT CORRECTLY EMULATES ITS INPUT
>>>>
>>>> Rather than shouting, you could either publish an honest, un-edited
>>>> execution trace,
>>>
>>> If you can't understand that a single page already proves that
>>> H(p,P)==0 is correct it is certainly the case that providing 237-fold
>>> more details [would not help].
>> (Your correction added)
>>
>> Your traces are edited. No one will believe them until you post the
>> real trace, and even then you will have some work to do to convince
>> people you are being honest about the output.
>
> I can simply upgrade to smarter people that don't lie.

I don't lie. Your trace does not show what you claim H is doing. And
having admitted to editing the traces, no one is going to believe you.

But I urge you, most forcefully, to find someone to review your claims
who you have enough respect for to listen to what they have to say.

> These smart non-liars would know that they don't need the 237 pages of
> execution trace or the source-code of H to definitively determine that
> H(P,P)==0 is correct.

It would be dumb to accept edited traces that don't show the nested
emulation you claim is occurring. Maybe you can find a smart sucker out
there? We all know they exist.

But first you'd have explain why they should care about what H is
actually deciding since it isn't the halting of the call specified by
the problem definition. Apparently you accept (but dare not actually
state) that not algorithm an do what H is supposed to do. It'll be hard
to get people enthusiastic about a function that just gets halting of
the conventional constriction wrong.

> Number of Instructions Executed(15892) = 237 pages

Post it all (if indeed it even exists) or better yet, stop keeping H a
secret.

--
Ben.
"le génie humain a des limites, quand la bêtise humaine n’en a pas"
Alexandre Dumas (fils)

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)

<VdOhK.2212$Rvub.1322@fx35.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=32686&group=comp.theory#32686

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.theory
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr3.iad1.usenetexpress.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx35.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.9.0
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (TM design)
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc> <t5qg8m$rlp$1@dont-email.me> <-YWdnXUTXaNq_Rn_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ee0qq2lr.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <EuidnURwxcY6vhj_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87o7zu8hk8.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <04qdnQ2ArKr2Bhj_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87a6bd91n1.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <RuGdnaqBNspG-xv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <874k1l8h4u.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <Y7idnfd_v--hARv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87pmk96oho.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <nOudnWReB9ozfBv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87ee0p6n4s.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <XbadnfDtZoa1bxv_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87zgjd55i7.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <KfGdneynl8aSahv_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <87tu9k6gx2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <2c6dnWpNOpoTlBr_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com> <8SKhK.460$3Gzd.56@fx96.iad> <87v8u0466n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
In-Reply-To: <87v8u0466n.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <VdOhK.2212$Rvub.1322@fx35.iad>
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Forte - www.forteinc.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 11:12:53 -0400
X-Received-Bytes: 4118
 by: Richard Damon - Fri, 20 May 2022 15:12 UTC

On 5/20/22 10:41 AM, Ben wrote:
> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:
>
>> On 5/19/22 11:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/19/2022 10:07 PM, Ben wrote:
>
>>>> $ ./tm -f paren.tm "(())"
>>>>         0 ______________________________[0|(]())___________________________
>>>>         1 _____________________________([0|(]))____________________________
>>>>         2 ____________________________(([0|)])_____________________________
>>>>         3 _____________________________([1|(]A)____________________________
>>>>         4 ____________________________(A[0|A])_____________________________
>>>>         5 ___________________________(AA[0|)]______________________________
>>>>         6 ____________________________(A[1|A]A_____________________________
>>>>         7 _____________________________([1|A]AA____________________________
>>>>         8 ______________________________[1|(]AAA___________________________
>>>>         9 _____________________________A[0|A]AA____________________________
>>>>        10 ____________________________AA[0|A]A_____________________________
>>>>        11 ___________________________AAA[0|A]______________________________
>>>>        12 __________________________AAAA[0|_]______________________________
>>>>        13 ___________________________AAA[2|A]______________________________
>>>>        14 ____________________________AA[2|A]A_____________________________
>>>>        15 _____________________________A[2|A]AA____________________________
>>>>        16 ______________________________[2|A]AAA___________________________
>>>>        17 ______________________________[2|_]AAAA__________________________
>>>>        18 ______________________________[Y|A]AAA___________________________
>>>> accept after 18 steps.
>>>>
>>> I can't quote tell what that says. The original TM.exe provides a good
>>> trace.
>>
>> Not even knowing his program I can read it.
>>
>> In the middle is the current state in brackets []
>>
>> to the left of that is the tape to the left of the head.
>>
>> to the right of that is the tape under the head and to the right.
>
> The current symbol is in the []s as well: [0|(].
>

yes, I missed that [ | and ] all look similar on the screen without good
context.

Maybe adding a space outside the [ ] would make it more readable, though
maybe reading them enough makes it not needed.

Pages:123456789101112
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor