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devel / comp.theory / Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

SubjectAuthor
* Category errorMr Flibble
+* Category errorolcott
|`* Category errorRichard Damon
| `* Category errorolcott
|  `* Category errorRichard Damon
|   `* Category errorolcott
|    `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|     `* Category errorolcott
|      `* Category errorRichard Damon
|       +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |`* Category errorolcott
|       | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |  +- Category errorRichard Damon
|       |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |  `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |       `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |       `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |        `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |         `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       `* Category errorolcott
|        +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |`* Category errorolcott
|        | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |  `* Category errorolcott
|        |   +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |   |`- Category errorolcott
|        |   `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |    `* Category errorolcott
|        |     `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |      `* Category errorolcott
|        |       `- Category errorRichard Damon
|        `- Category errorRichard Damon
+* Category errorwij
|`* Category errorMr Flibble
| `- Category errorolcott
`* Category errorMikko
 `* Category errorolcott
  +* Category errorRichard Damon
  |`* Category errorolcott
  | `- Category errorRichard Damon
  `* Category errorBen
   +* Category errorolcott
   |+- Category errorRichard Damon
   |`- Category errorBen
   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |    `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
       `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
        +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
        `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
         `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
          +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |+- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Richard Damon
          |    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |     |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     |  |||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Malcolm McLean
          |     |  ||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  ||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Python
          `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben

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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<847e0d38-bff3-4c2c-a66a-0b0a188c4d7bn@googlegroups.com>

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Message-ID: <847e0d38-bff3-4c2c-a66a-0b0a188c4d7bn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:16 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:05:17 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:02 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:59:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 5:52 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>
> >>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is
> >>>> incorrect.
> >>>
> >>> The sole purpose of your mantra, repeated again and again, is to avoid
> >>> this key question: what is being simulated?
> >>>
> >>> H(P,P) has no "inputs". It has arguments. They are pointers. There is
> >>> no such thing as a "correct simulation" of two pointers.
> >> What a complete jackass thing to say when you already know damn well the
> >> finite strings of machine language must be passed to functions that
> >> operate on them as pointers in C.
> >>> There is not
> >>> even an incorrect simulation of two pointers. But you must repeat the
> >>> mantra or you will have to admit one of two things: either it's P(P)
> >>> that is being simulated, in which case H gives the wrong answer, or it
> >>> is not P(P) that is being simulated, in which case no one cares.
> >>>
> >> The finite strings of machine language that are passed to H as machine
> >> addresses are simulated correctly and you have always known this and
> >> only denied it to play sadistic head games.
> >
> > If it's simulated correctly then why does P(P) halt? Because that's what the input represents. And if it doesn't, H isn't answering the right question.
> I have explained this to you dozens of times

Just like everyone has explained to you dozens of times that, according to the definition of the problem, that H(P,P) must answer the question of whether P(P) halts, and no amount of waffling or restating your original point with no explanation is going to change that.

> because you are a
> despicable lying bastard you pretend to not know what I said.

Neither I nor anyone else here has any incentive to lie, unlike you who would have to admit to himself that he wasted the last 18 years on a fruitless pursuit.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<Y_Wdndm8E_7mvxX_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:21 UTC

On 5/20/2022 6:16 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:05:17 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 6:02 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:59:08 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:52 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is
>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>> The sole purpose of your mantra, repeated again and again, is to avoid
>>>>> this key question: what is being simulated?
>>>>>
>>>>> H(P,P) has no "inputs". It has arguments. They are pointers. There is
>>>>> no such thing as a "correct simulation" of two pointers.
>>>> What a complete jackass thing to say when you already know damn well the
>>>> finite strings of machine language must be passed to functions that
>>>> operate on them as pointers in C.
>>>>> There is not
>>>>> even an incorrect simulation of two pointers. But you must repeat the
>>>>> mantra or you will have to admit one of two things: either it's P(P)
>>>>> that is being simulated, in which case H gives the wrong answer, or it
>>>>> is not P(P) that is being simulated, in which case no one cares.
>>>>>
>>>> The finite strings of machine language that are passed to H as machine
>>>> addresses are simulated correctly and you have always known this and
>>>> only denied it to play sadistic head games.
>>>
>>> If it's simulated correctly then why does P(P) halt? Because that's what the input represents. And if it doesn't, H isn't answering the right question.
>> I have explained this to you dozens of times
>
> Just like everyone has explained to you dozens of times that, according to the definition of the problem, that H(P,P) must answer the question of whether P(P) halts,

Let put that on hold and only examine whether or not H(P,P)==0 is
correct. It is an easily verifiable fact that H(P,P)==0 is correct.

If you disagree then that proves that you are a despicable lying bastard
as is the case with everyone that knowingly disagrees with verified facts.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<c4618654-0d3e-4e63-9c12-911f77194b5en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 23:21:36 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Dennis Bush - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:21 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>
> >>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >> machine language named H.
> >
> > And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> More than that.
> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.

The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.

H(P,P)==0 and P(P) halts, so H(P,P)==0 is wrong. It's really that simple.

And based on that, the simulation is shown to be incorrect because it aborts too soon. This is demonstrated by:
* P(P) halting
* UTM(P,P) halting
* Hb(P,P) ==1, where Hb simulates for k steps more that H

If you're using some other criteria, then by definition H is not a halt decider and has nothing to do with the halting problem.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:25 UTC

On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>
>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>> machine language named H.
>>>
>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>> More than that.
>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>
> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.

You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:31 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>> machine language named H.
> >>>
> >>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >> More than that.
> >> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >
> > The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>
> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.

The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition. P(P) halts, so H(P,P)==0 is incorrect.

This is demonstrated by:
* P(P) halting
* UTM(P,P) halting
* Hb(P,P) ==1, where Hb simulates for k steps more that H

Going into more detail, the execution trace of Hb(P,P) and H(P,P) are identical up to the point that H aborts. Hb then continues to simulate that same input past that point and finds that the input reaches a final state. This is conclusive proof that H is wrong because it aborted too soon.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:37 UTC

On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>
>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>> More than that.
>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>
>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>
>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>
> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.

The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Ben is a Liar ]
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 by: olcott - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:54 UTC

On 5/20/2022 5:52 PM, Ben wrote:
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>
>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>
>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>
>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is
>> incorrect.
>
> The sole purpose of your mantra, repeated again and again, is to avoid
> this key question: what is being simulated?
When H is a C function and the input to H is a pair of pointers to the
the literal string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack then
H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Sat, 21 May 2022 00:09 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>>>> machine language named H.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >>>> More than that.
> >>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >>>
> >>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> >> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> >> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
> >>
> >> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> >> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
> >
> > The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.

Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function

>
> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.

And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Ben is a Liar ]
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 by: olcott - Sat, 21 May 2022 00:15 UTC

On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>>>> More than that.
>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>>
>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>>>
>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>>>
>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
>
> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function

None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.

When the HP requires that a non-decider that is not a computation is
required to compute halting for a non-input it contradicts the axioms of
computer science and therefore errs, thus making H(P,P)==0 relevant.

>
>>
>> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
>> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
>
> And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.

The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly ever reach its
own final state therefore is correctly determined to be non-halting.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
Injection-Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 00:32:44 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Dennis Bush - Sat, 21 May 2022 00:32 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>>>>>> machine language named H.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >>>>>> More than that.
> >>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> >>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> >>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
> >>>>
> >>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> >>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
> >>>
> >>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> >> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
> >
> > Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.

Only for something that is not the halting problem.

>
> When the HP requires that a non-decider

It doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it computes the halting function.

> that is not a computation

If it always gives the same result for the same input, it *is* a computation

> is required to compute halting for a non-input

Which is exactly represented by the input

> it contradicts the axioms of computer science

Which means what exactly? You're just making stuff up.

> and therefore errs, thus making H(P,P)==0 relevant.

So in other words you're saying that the conclusion of the halting problem proofs is correct.

> >
> >>
> >> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
> >> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
> >
> > And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.
> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly ever reach its
> own final state therefore is correctly determined to be non-halting.

The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) is performed by Hb(P,P) which does simulate it to a final state, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Sat, 21 May 2022 00:55 UTC

On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>>>>>> More than that.
>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
>>>
>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
>
> Only for something that is not the halting problem.

So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
of pointers to the literal string of P?

>
>>
>> When the HP requires that a non-decider
>
> It doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it computes the halting function.
>
>> that is not a computation
>
> If it always gives the same result for the same input, it *is* a computation
>
>> is required to compute halting for a non-input
>
> Which is exactly represented by the input
>
>> it contradicts the axioms of computer science
>
> Which means what exactly? You're just making stuff up.
>
>> and therefore errs, thus making H(P,P)==0 relevant.
>
> So in other words you're saying that the conclusion of the halting problem proofs is correct.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
>>>> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
>>>
>>> And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.
>> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly ever reach its
>> own final state therefore is correctly determined to be non-halting.
>
> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) is performed by Hb(P,P) which does simulate it to a final state, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Sat, 21 May 2022 01:20 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >>>>>>>> More than that.
> >>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> >>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> >>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> >>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> >>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
> >>>
> >>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
> >> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
> >
> > Only for something that is not the halting problem.
> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
> of pointers to the literal string of P?

If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.

The machine language of P, as a *complete program*, includes the fixed machine language of H since P calls H, plus everything that H calls all the way down. And P(P) halts, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.

Your error is thinking that H doesn't matter, but it does.

> >
> >>
> >> When the HP requires that a non-decider
> >
> > It doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it computes the halting function.
> >
> >> that is not a computation
> >
> > If it always gives the same result for the same input, it *is* a computation
> >
> >> is required to compute halting for a non-input
> >
> > Which is exactly represented by the input
> >
> >> it contradicts the axioms of computer science
> >
> > Which means what exactly? You're just making stuff up.
> >
> >> and therefore errs, thus making H(P,P)==0 relevant.
> >
> > So in other words you're saying that the conclusion of the halting problem proofs is correct.
> >
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
> >>>> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
> >>>
> >>> And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.
> >> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly ever reach its
> >> own final state therefore is correctly determined to be non-halting.
> >
> > The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) is performed by Hb(P,P) which does simulate it to a final state, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
> --
> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
>
> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

<j7GdncfyY7Dx3hX_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
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Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc> <87o7zr3od4.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Sat, 21 May 2022 01:42 UTC

On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
>>>
>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
>
> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
>

When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
H(P,P).

_P()
[000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
[000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
[000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
[000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
[000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
[000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
[000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
[000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]

> The machine language of P, as a *complete program*, includes the fixed machine language of H since P calls H, plus everything that H calls all the way down. And P(P) halts, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
>
> Your error is thinking that H doesn't matter, but it does.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When the HP requires that a non-decider
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it computes the halting function.
>>>
>>>> that is not a computation
>>>
>>> If it always gives the same result for the same input, it *is* a computation
>>>
>>>> is required to compute halting for a non-input
>>>
>>> Which is exactly represented by the input
>>>
>>>> it contradicts the axioms of computer science
>>>
>>> Which means what exactly? You're just making stuff up.
>>>
>>>> and therefore errs, thus making H(P,P)==0 relevant.
>>>
>>> So in other words you're saying that the conclusion of the halting problem proofs is correct.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
>>>>>> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.
>>>> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly ever reach its
>>>> own final state therefore is correctly determined to be non-halting.
>>>
>>> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) is performed by Hb(P,P) which does simulate it to a final state, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
>> --
>> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
>>
>> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
>> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
>> Arthur Schopenhauer

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
Injection-Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 01:51:48 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Dennis Bush - Sat, 21 May 2022 01:51 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >>>>>>>>>> More than that.
> >>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> >>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> >>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> >>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> >>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
> >>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
> >>>
> >>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
> >> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
> >> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
> >> of pointers to the literal string of P?
> >
> > If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
> >
> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
> H(P,P).
>
> _P()
> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]

But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.

This of course is all academic because H is not computing the halting function:

D(X,Y)==1 if and only if X(Y) halts, and
D(X,Y)==0 if and only if X(Y) does not halt

All you're doing is trying to explain how it comes up with the wrong answer.

It doesn't matter whether or not this fits the description of what you think a decider should be. That's the problem description, period.

If you state that no D can compute this function, then you're explicitly agreeing with the conclusion of the halting problem proofs.

> > The machine language of P, as a *complete program*, includes the fixed machine language of H since P calls H, plus everything that H calls all the way down. And P(P) halts, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
> >
> > Your error is thinking that H doesn't matter, but it does.
> >
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> When the HP requires that a non-decider
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it computes the halting function.
> >>>
> >>>> that is not a computation
> >>>
> >>> If it always gives the same result for the same input, it *is* a computation
> >>>
> >>>> is required to compute halting for a non-input
> >>>
> >>> Which is exactly represented by the input
> >>>
> >>>> it contradicts the axioms of computer science
> >>>
> >>> Which means what exactly? You're just making stuff up.
> >>>
> >>>> and therefore errs, thus making H(P,P)==0 relevant.
> >>>
> >>> So in other words you're saying that the conclusion of the halting problem proofs is correct.
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
> >>>>>> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.
> >>>> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly ever reach its
> >>>> own final state therefore is correctly determined to be non-halting.
> >>>
> >>> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) is performed by Hb(P,P) which does simulate it to a final state, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
> >> --
> >> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
> >>
> >> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> >> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> >> Arthur Schopenhauer
>
>
> --
> Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott
>
> "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
> Genius hits a target no one else can see."
> Arthur Schopenhauer


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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Sat, 21 May 2022 01:59 UTC

On 5/20/2022 8:51 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>>>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>>>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
>>>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
>>>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
>>>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
>>>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
>>>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
>>>
>>> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
>>>
>> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
>> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
>> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
>> H(P,P).
>>
>> _P()
>> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
>> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
>> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
>> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
>> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
>> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
>> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
>> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
>> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
>> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
>> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]
>
> But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.

OK then when the literal string of the machine code of H correctly
emulates the pair of literal strings of the machine code of P we can
verify that this execution trace is correct:

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

On the basis of this x86 source-code of this literal string:
558bec8b4508508b4d0851e840feffff83c40885c07402ebfe5dc3

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]


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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Sat, 21 May 2022 02:09 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:59:27 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 8:51 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> >>>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> >>>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> >>>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> >>>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
> >>>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
> >>>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
> >>>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
> >>>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
> >>>
> >>> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
> >>>
> >> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
> >> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
> >> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
> >> H(P,P).
> >>
> >> _P()
> >> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
> >> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> >> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
> >> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> >> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
> >> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
> >> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> >> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
> >> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
> >> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
> >> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
> >> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
> >> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]
> >
> > But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
> OK then when the literal string of the machine code of H correctly
> emulates

Which is doesn't as demonstrated by Hb(P,P) reaching a final state and returning 1.

the pair of literal strings of the machine code of P we can
> verify that this execution trace is correct:
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

You left out the fixed code of H which simulates P and will eventually abort which Hb(P,P) is able to see but not H because H aborts too soon.

> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> On the basis of this x86 source-code of this literal string:
> 558bec8b4508508b4d0851e840feffff83c40885c07402ebfe5dc3


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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Sat, 21 May 2022 02:17 UTC

On 5/20/2022 9:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:59:27 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 8:51 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>>>>>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
>>>>>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
>>>>>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
>>>>>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
>>>>>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
>>>>>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
>>>>>
>>>> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
>>>> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
>>>> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
>>>> H(P,P).
>>>>
>>>> _P()
>>>> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
>>>> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
>>>> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
>>>> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
>>>> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
>>>> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
>>>> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
>>>> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
>>>> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
>>>> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
>>>> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]
>>>
>>> But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
>> OK then when the literal string of the machine code of H correctly
>> emulates
>
> Which is doesn't as demonstrated by Hb(P,P) reaching a final state and returning 1.

H is at machine address 00000826 every other variation is a dishonest
dodge away from the actual question.

>
>
> the pair of literal strings of the machine code of P we can
>> verify that this execution trace is correct:
>>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> You left out the fixed code of H which simulates P and will eventually abort which Hb(P,P) is able to see but not H because H aborts too soon.
>
>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
>> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
>> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>
>> On the basis of this x86 source-code of this literal string:
>> 558bec8b4508508b4d0851e840feffff83c40885c07402ebfe5dc3
>
> Plus the x86 source code of the fixed implementation of H and everything H calls all the way down.
>
>>
>> _P()
>> [00001352](01) 55 push ebp
>> [00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>> [00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00001358](01) 50 push eax
>> [00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [0000135c](01) 51 push ecx
>> [0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> [00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
>> [00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
>> [00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
>> [00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
>> [0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
>> [0000136c](01) c3 ret
>> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>>
>> Specifies the trace that H provides.
>
> And none of this matters if H(P,P) isn't telling us if P(P) halts.
>
>>>
>>> This of course is all academic because H is not computing the halting function:
>>>
>>> D(X,Y)==1 if and only if X(Y) halts, and
>>> D(X,Y)==0 if and only if X(Y) does not halt
>>>
>>> All you're doing is trying to explain how it comes up with the wrong answer.
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter whether or not this fits the description of what you think a decider should be. That's the problem description, period.
>>>
>>> If you state that no D can compute this function, then you're explicitly agreeing with the conclusion of the halting problem proofs.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The machine language of P, as a *complete program*, includes the fixed machine language of H since P calls H, plus everything that H calls all the way down. And P(P) halts, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your error is thinking that H doesn't matter, but it does.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When the HP requires that a non-decider
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It doesn't matter what it's called. What matters is that it computes the halting function.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that is not a computation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it always gives the same result for the same input, it *is* a computation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is required to compute halting for a non-input
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is exactly represented by the input
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it contradicts the axioms of computer science
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which means what exactly? You're just making stuff up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and therefore errs, thus making H(P,P)==0 relevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So in other words you're saying that the conclusion of the halting problem proofs is correct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
>>>>>>>>>> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And the H that P calls is considered part of the program P so it's behavior must be considered. And since the fixed code of H *will* return 0, a correct simulation of the input, like that performed by Hb, does reach a final state.
>>>>>>>> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) cannot possibly ever reach its
>>>>>>>> own final state therefore is correctly determined to be non-halting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The correctly simulated input to H(P,P) is performed by Hb(P,P) which does simulate it to a final state, therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
>


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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Sat, 21 May 2022 02:32 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:17:18 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 9:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:59:27 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 8:51 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to..
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> >>>>>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> >>>>>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
> >>>>>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
> >>>>>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
> >>>>>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
> >>>>>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
> >>>>>
> >>>> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
> >>>> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
> >>>> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
> >>>> H(P,P).
> >>>>
> >>>> _P()
> >>>> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
> >>>> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >>>> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> >>>> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
> >>>> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> >>>> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
> >>>> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
> >>>> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> >>>> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
> >>>> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
> >>>> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
> >>>> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
> >>>> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
> >>>> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]
> >>>
> >>> But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
> >> OK then when the literal string of the machine code of H correctly
> >> emulates
> >
> > Which is doesn't as demonstrated by Hb(P,P) reaching a final state and returning 1.
> H is at machine address 00000826 every other variation is a dishonest
> dodge away from the actual question.

And since the fixed H is programmed to abort (which from now on we'll refer to as Ha to make that clear, and P we'll call Pa to make it clear that it's calling Ha), when Hb(Pa,Pa) simulates this same input to a final state and returns 1 it demonstrates that Ha(Pa,Pa)==0 is wrong.


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Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Sat, 21 May 2022 02:45 UTC

On 5/20/2022 9:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:17:18 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 9:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:59:27 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:51 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
>>>>>>>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
>>>>>>>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
>>>>>>>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
>>>>>>>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
>>>>>> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
>>>>>> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
>>>>>> H(P,P).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _P()
>>>>>> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
>>>>>> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
>>>>>> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
>>>>>> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
>>>>>> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
>>>>>> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
>>>>>> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
>>>>>> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
>>>>>> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
>>>>>> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]
>>>>>
>>>>> But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
>>>> OK then when the literal string of the machine code of H correctly
>>>> emulates
>>>
>>> Which is doesn't as demonstrated by Hb(P,P) reaching a final state and returning 1.
>> H is at machine address 00000826 every other variation is a dishonest
>> dodge away from the actual question.
>
> And since the fixed H is programmed to abort


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 21 May 2022 03:01 UTC

On 5/20/22 6:33 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>
>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>
>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>
>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
>> function call P(P), then  H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>
> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.

Like the CALL Instruction?

>
>>
>> These are the cases that matter.  Whatever it is you mean by your latest
>> "correct simulation" mantra is of no interest to anyone but you.  That H
>> is "correct" to do whatever it is that it does is simply unassailable.
>>
>>> and you only deny this to play sadistic head games.
>>
>> If you think about it for more than a second, that's a very nasty
>> accusation.  Do you stand by it?
>>
>
>

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 21 May 2022 03:02 UTC

On 5/20/22 7:13 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly
>>>>>>>>> proving
>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one
>>>>>>>> case you
>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P)
>>>>>>>> and a
>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is
>>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error
>>>>> in an
>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>
>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you
>>>> should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>> machine language named H.
>>
>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> More than that.
> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>

No, you haven't.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 21 May 2022 03:03 UTC

On 5/20/22 7:25 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated
>>>>>>>>>>> correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the
>>>>>>>>>> one case you
>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P)
>>>>>>>>>> halts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a
>>>>>>>>>> simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both
>>>>>>>>>> P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is
>>>>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error
>>>>>>> in an
>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent
>>>>>> you should have no problem explaining why without just saying
>>>>>> "strawman".
>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>
>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>> More than that.
>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>
>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is
>> whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>
> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>

And a CALL instruction doesn't go to some other address and a major
change in stack.

Prove you are a LIAR.

FAIL.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
Content-Language: en-US
Newsgroups: comp.theory
References: <20220514170555.00004550@reddwarf.jmc>
<A5adnZZH0fB8Nxr_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com> <87k0ag44sa.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 21 May 2022 03:05 UTC

On 5/20/22 7:37 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P)
>>>>>>>>>>>> halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both
>>>>>>>>>>>> P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is
>>>>>>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman
>>>>>>>>> error in an
>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent
>>>>>>>> you should have no problem explaining why without just saying
>>>>>>>> "strawman".
>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language
>>>>>>> of P
>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
>>>>> More than that.
>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>
>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is
>>>> whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
>>>
>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
>>
>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
>
> The input to the C function H is a pair of pointers to the the literal
> string of the machine code of P, passed on the stack.
>

Which needs to include the code for H or it DOESN'T actually specify
behavior.

Since that code aborts its "simulation" of its input, P halts.

FAIL.

Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Sat, 21 May 2022 03:06 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:45:12 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 9:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:17:18 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >> On 5/20/2022 9:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:59:27 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 5/20/2022 8:51 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is simulated correctly proving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if only for the one case you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong, because P(P) halts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)" is a simulation of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong because both P(P) and a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines of code that are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the simulation is incorrect.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the strawman error in an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining why without just saying "strawman".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the machine language of P
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific finite string of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is correct,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I prove the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring to.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable liar mode.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the input to H(P,P)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves otherwise.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86 machine-code Jackass.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is computing something other that the halting function
> >>>>>>>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
> >>>>>>>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt status
> >>>>>>>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack as a pair
> >>>>>>>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a halt status because it's not a complete program.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its correct
> >>>>>> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
> >>>>>> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the input to
> >>>>>> H(P,P).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _P()
> >>>>>> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
> >>>>>> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >>>>>> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> >>>>>> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
> >>>>>> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> >>>>>> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
> >>>>>> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
> >>>>>> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> >>>>>> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
> >>>>>> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
> >>>>>> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
> >>>>>> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
> >>>>>> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
> >>>>>> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
> >>>> OK then when the literal string of the machine code of H correctly
> >>>> emulates
> >>>
> >>> Which is doesn't as demonstrated by Hb(P,P) reaching a final state and returning 1.
> >> H is at machine address 00000826 every other variation is a dishonest
> >> dodge away from the actual question.
> >
> > And since the fixed H is programmed to abort
> This is not true and we are not yet discussing that aspect of it yet.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]

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Subject: Re: Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[
Ben is a Liar ]
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<149edd24-33b0-4ccd-8a37-9f12fb6c74c2n@googlegroups.com>
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<DP-dnVGIpcGszxX_nZ2dnUU7_81g4p2d@giganews.com>
From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sat, 21 May 2022 03:08 UTC

On 5/20/22 10:45 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 9:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:17:18 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/20/2022 9:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:59:27 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:51 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:42:11 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 8:20 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:56:09 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:32 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 7:09 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:37:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:31 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:25:15 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:21 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:13:37 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 6:11 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:02:24 PM UTC-4, olcott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:53 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:51:42 PM UTC-4, olcott
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:44 PM, Dennis Bush wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:33:29 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/20/2022 5:25 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> olcott <No...@NoWhere.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have known that the input to H(P,P) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated correctly proving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that H(P,P)==0 is correct for the whole six months
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If H is intended to be a halt decider (even if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only for the one case you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to care about) then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because P(P) halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a "correct simulation of the input to H(P,P)"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function call P(P), then H(P,P) == 0 is wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because both P(P) and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation of P(P) halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in other words even though there are no lines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of code that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated incorrectly you still claim that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation is incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THAT IS WHAT A DAMNED LYING BASTARD WOULD SAY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if we look at the execution trace of Ha3(N,5),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet another God damned lying bastard that uses the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strawman error in an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to get away with deception.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if you believe that Ha3(N,5)==0 is either wrong
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or irrelevent you should have no problem explaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why without just saying "strawman".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am talking about the correct simulation of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language of P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being correctly emulated by another 100% specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine language named H.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And by the criteria you use to show that H(P,P)==0 is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More than that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I prove that the criteria that I use is correct and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H(P,P)==0 is correct on the basis of that criteria.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The *only* criteria for whether the result of H(P,P) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct is whether P(P) halts, *by definition*.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not for the specific machine language that I am referring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So OK you prove that you intend to stay in despicable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liar mode.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You proclaim by lying bastard dictatorial fiat that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to H(P,P)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts even though its correct execution trace proves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The input to H(P,P) represents P(P) by definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not when we are talking about C functions and x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine-code Jackass.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you're not talking about the halting problem, and H is
>>>>>>>>>>>> computing something other that the halting function
>>>>>>>>>>> None-the-less H(P,P)==0 is proven to be correct.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Only for something that is not the halting problem.
>>>>>>>>> So you agree that H(P,P)==0 is correct when H computes the halt
>>>>>>>>> status
>>>>>>>>> of the machine language of P that is passed to H on the stack
>>>>>>>>> as a pair
>>>>>>>>> of pointers to the literal string of P?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you're referring to *just* the function P, it doesn't have a
>>>>>>>> halt status because it's not a complete program.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When we stipulate that the input to H(P,P) only halts when its
>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>> simulation reaches its machine address of [000009f0] otherwise it is
>>>>>>> non-halting then H(P,P)==0 is the correct halt status of the
>>>>>>> input to
>>>>>>> H(P,P).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _P()
>>>>>>> [000009d6](01) 55 push ebp
>>>>>>> [000009d7](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>> [000009d9](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>> [000009dc](01) 50 push eax // push P
>>>>>>> [000009dd](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>>>> [000009e0](01) 51 push ecx // push P
>>>>>>> [000009e1](05) e840feffff call 00000826 // call H
>>>>>>> [000009e6](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
>>>>>>> [000009e9](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
>>>>>>> [000009eb](02) 7402 jz 000009ef
>>>>>>> [000009ed](02) ebfe jmp 000009ed
>>>>>>> [000009ef](01) 5d pop ebp
>>>>>>> [000009f0](01) c3 ret // Final state
>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0027) [000009f0]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But H(P,P) does *not* perform a correct of its input. A correct
>>>>>> simulation of this input is done Hb(P,P) which does in fact reach
>>>>>> a final state. Therefore H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
>>>>> OK then when the literal string of the machine code of H correctly
>>>>> emulates
>>>>
>>>> Which is doesn't as demonstrated by Hb(P,P) reaching a final state
>>>> and returning 1.
>>> H is at machine address 00000826 every other variation is a dishonest
>>> dodge away from the actual question.
>>
>> And since the fixed H is programmed to abort
>
> This is not true and we are not yet discussing that aspect of it yet.
> We are only validating this this execution trace is correct.
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H


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