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devel / comp.theory / Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ stupid or liar ? ]

SubjectAuthor
* Category errorMr Flibble
+* Category errorolcott
|`* Category errorRichard Damon
| `* Category errorolcott
|  `* Category errorRichard Damon
|   `* Category errorolcott
|    `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|     `* Category errorolcott
|      `* Category errorRichard Damon
|       +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |`* Category errorolcott
|       | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|       |  +- Category errorRichard Damon
|       |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | +* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |`* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]André G. Isaak
|       |   | |  `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   | `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |  `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |   |       `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |   `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |    `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |     `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |      `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |       `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       |        `* Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]olcott
|       |         `- Category error [ --KEY_INSIGHT-- ]Richard Damon
|       `* Category errorolcott
|        +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |`* Category errorolcott
|        | `* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |  `* Category errorolcott
|        |   +* Category errorAndré G. Isaak
|        |   |`- Category errorolcott
|        |   `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |    `* Category errorolcott
|        |     `* Category errorRichard Damon
|        |      `* Category errorolcott
|        |       `- Category errorRichard Damon
|        `- Category errorRichard Damon
+* Category errorwij
|`* Category errorMr Flibble
| `- Category errorolcott
`* Category errorMikko
 `* Category errorolcott
  +* Category errorRichard Damon
  |`* Category errorolcott
  | `- Category errorRichard Damon
  `* Category errorBen
   +* Category errorolcott
   |+- Category errorRichard Damon
   |`- Category errorBen
   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Malcolm McLean
      |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
      |    `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
      `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
       `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
        +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
        `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben
         `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]olcott
          +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Richard Damon
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |+- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)olcott
          |  +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Richard Damon
          |  `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (clearer words)Ben
          |   `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |    +- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Richard Damon
          |    `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          |     |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)Ben
          |     | `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  |||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  ||||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     |  |||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Malcolm McLean
          |     |  ||| `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |||  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[Richard Damon
          |     |  ||`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Ben
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |+* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  |`* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[olcott
          |     |  `- Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)[ Ben is a Liar ]Richard Damon
          |     `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ] (smart honest people would agree)olcott
          +* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Python
          `* Category error [ HEAD GAMES ]Ben

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Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

<O-KdnW4pn-mvWRf_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point
? ]
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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Sun, 22 May 2022 23:16 UTC

On 5/22/2022 5:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> On 5/22/22 5:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

>> So then you now agree that the nested invocation of H(P,P) would
>> derive the same execution trace of its input that the the outer one did?
>>
>
> Yes seem to have a confusion. Yes, the second simulator will produce and
> identical trace to the first one, AS A SEPERATE TRACE.

So the first invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

And the second (nested) invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

From this we can see the pattern that the C/x86 function named P will
never reach its last instruction, thus conclusively proving that when
H(P,P) rejects its input as non-halting it is correct.

>
> The issue is you can not validly "combine" them into a single trace,
> that is just a lie. The first simulator needs to show its trace of the
> instructions of the second simulator doing its simulation.
>

So when I show the trace of main() this trace is a lie? I show the trace
of every line of user code and none of these traces are a lie.

> I suppose if you want, you can omit that with a note of omitted detail,
> but the the trace goes to the call, says details omited, then the notice
> that the trace was aborted, but then you don't have any grounds to claim
> that it was correct (since there aren't any).
>
>> In order to contradict me you must contradict computer science.
>>
>>
>
> Nope, YOU do that enough.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ stupid or liar ? ]

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Subject: Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ stupid or liar ? ]
From: malcolm....@gmail.com (Malcolm McLean)
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 by: Malcolm McLean - Sun, 22 May 2022 23:33 UTC

On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 22:59:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> >
> > On 5/22/22 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>
> > Interesting point, that you eed to talk about "reverse-engineering" this
> > output implies that you don't actually have a program to generate it.
> >
> Not at all. This program took me a whole man-year.
> The most difficult part was to make the nested simulations work correctly.
>
That suggests that something is wrong.
An interpreted language. which is what an emulator is, should be able to
interpret anything written in valid grammar for that language. An
intepreter for the language itself shouldn't be a special case.

However it seems you are special-casing a call to H to try to outwit
Linz.

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

<T0AiK.6042$GTEb.3342@fx48.iad>

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Subject: Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point
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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sun, 22 May 2022 23:52 UTC

On 5/22/22 7:16 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 5:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>
>> On 5/22/22 5:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>
>>> So then you now agree that the nested invocation of H(P,P) would
>>> derive the same execution trace of its input that the the outer one did?
>>>
>>
>> Yes seem to have a confusion. Yes, the second simulator will produce
>> and identical trace to the first one, AS A SEPERATE TRACE.
>
>
> So the first invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> And the second (nested) invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>
> From this we can see the pattern that the C/x86 function named P will
> never reach its last instruction, thus conclusively proving that when
> H(P,P) rejects its input as non-halting it is correct.
>

No, because the whole second trace is conditioned on the halt deciding
of H. So, if the top level H aborts at that point, then the trace become
incorrect by being incomplete (it doesn't show the FULL Halting behavior
of the input, which refers to the machine it represents, which did not
halt there.

When we put this input into an ACTUAL CORRECT emulator that doesn't
abort, it will show a third (nested) simulation followed by the
simulator that P called deciding to abort, and then P Halting.

>> The issue is you can not validly "combine" them into a single trace,
>> that is just a lie. The first simulator needs to show its trace of the
>> instructions of the second simulator doing its simulation.
>>
>
> So when I show the trace of main() this trace is a lie? I show the trace
> of every line of user code and none of these traces are a lie.

The phrase "User Code" is a lie, as H needs to be User Code, as that is
all Turing Machines have (at least as far as tracing goes).

I think the problem is that your H doesn't actually exist as a real
independent algorithm, but is enmeshed in your UTM x86, and thus isn't
actually a Computation.

>
>> I suppose if you want, you can omit that with a note of omitted
>> detail, but the the trace goes to the call, says details omited, then
>> the notice that the trace was aborted, but then you don't have any
>> grounds to claim that it was correct (since there aren't any).
>>
>>> In order to contradict me you must contradict computer science.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Nope, YOU do that enough.
>
>

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ stupid or liar ? ]

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 by: olcott - Sun, 22 May 2022 23:55 UTC

On 5/22/2022 6:33 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 22:59:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/22/22 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting point, that you eed to talk about "reverse-engineering" this
>>> output implies that you don't actually have a program to generate it.
>>>
>> Not at all. This program took me a whole man-year.
>> The most difficult part was to make the nested simulations work correctly.
>>
> That suggests that something is wrong.
> An interpreted language. which is what an emulator is, should be able to
> interpret anything written in valid grammar for that language. An
> intepreter for the language itself shouldn't be a special case.
>
> However it seems you are special-casing a call to H to try to outwit
> Linz.

I had to create the whole x86utm operating system before a C function
would be able to invoke an x86 emulator on another C function and step
though its emulation one instruction at a time.

The tricky part of this is when the C function H emulates a function P
that calls this same C function H that emulates another copy of P that
calls H yet again to an arbitrary recursive depth...

Since the x86utm operating system directly executes the COFF object file
output of the Microsoft C compiler (prior to linking) the x86utm
operating system had no direct access to any of the C library code.

I had about the three man-month of wasted effort trying to make my own
very simple C compiler. That is not included in the man-year of effort.
The C compiler was going to compile into a simplified x86 machine code.
That I found a fully operational very well developed x86 emulator
enabled my current short-cut.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: olcott - Sun, 22 May 2022 23:59 UTC

On 5/22/2022 6:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/22/22 7:16 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/22/2022 5:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/22/22 5:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>
>>>> So then you now agree that the nested invocation of H(P,P) would
>>>> derive the same execution trace of its input that the the outer one
>>>> did?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes seem to have a confusion. Yes, the second simulator will produce
>>> and identical trace to the first one, AS A SEPERATE TRACE.
>>
>>
>> So the first invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>
>> And the second (nested) invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>
>>  From this we can see the pattern that the C/x86 function named P will
>> never reach its last instruction, thus conclusively proving that when
>> H(P,P) rejects its input as non-halting it is correct.
>>
>
> No, because the whole second trace is conditioned on the halt deciding
> of H. So, if the top level H aborts at that point, then the trace become
> incorrect by being incomplete (it doesn't show the FULL Halting behavior
> of the input, which refers to the machine it represents, which did not
> halt there.
The fact that I just proved that the simulated input to H(P,P) never
reaches its own final state conclusively proves that it is non-halting
regardless of whether or not it stops running.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Mon, 23 May 2022 00:21 UTC

On 5/22/22 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 6:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/22/22 7:16 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2022 5:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/22/22 5:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>
>>>>> So then you now agree that the nested invocation of H(P,P) would
>>>>> derive the same execution trace of its input that the the outer one
>>>>> did?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes seem to have a confusion. Yes, the second simulator will produce
>>>> and identical trace to the first one, AS A SEPERATE TRACE.
>>>
>>>
>>> So the first invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>
>>> And the second (nested) invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>
>>>  From this we can see the pattern that the C/x86 function named P
>>> will never reach its last instruction, thus conclusively proving that
>>> when H(P,P) rejects its input as non-halting it is correct.
>>>
>>
>> No, because the whole second trace is conditioned on the halt deciding
>> of H. So, if the top level H aborts at that point, then the trace
>> become incorrect by being incomplete (it doesn't show the FULL Halting
>> behavior of the input, which refers to the machine it represents,
>> which did not halt there.
> The fact that I just proved that the simulated input to H(P,P) never
> reaches its own final state conclusively proves that it is non-halting
> regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>

You proved that the INCOMPLETE simulation of the input by H doesn't
reach a final state.

NOT that the CORRECT simulation of the input by a CORRECT simulator doesn't.

You just are proving that you don't know the meaning of CORRECT. (or are
just lying).

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Mon, 23 May 2022 00:27 UTC

On 5/22/22 7:55 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 6:33 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 22:59:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/22/22 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>
>>>> Interesting point, that you eed to talk about "reverse-engineering"
>>>> this
>>>> output implies that you don't actually have a program to generate it.
>>>>
>>> Not at all. This program took me a whole man-year.
>>> The most difficult part was to make the nested simulations work
>>> correctly.
>>>
>> That suggests that something is wrong.
>> An interpreted language. which is what an emulator is, should  be able to
>> interpret anything written in valid grammar for that language. An
>> intepreter for the language itself shouldn't be a special case.
>>
>> However it seems you are special-casing a call to H to try to outwit
>> Linz.
>
> I had to create the whole x86utm operating system before a C function
> would be able to invoke an x86 emulator on another C function and step
> though its emulation one instruction at a time.
>
> The tricky part of this is when the C function H emulates a function P
> that calls this same C function H that emulates another copy of P that
> calls H yet again to an arbitrary recursive depth...
>
> Since the x86utm operating system directly executes the COFF object file
> output of the Microsoft C compiler (prior to linking) the x86utm
> operating system had no direct access to any of the C library code.
>
> I had about the three man-month of wasted effort trying to make my own
> very simple C compiler. That is not included in the man-year of effort.
> The C compiler was going to compile into a simplified x86 machine code.
> That I found a fully operational very well developed x86 emulator
> enabled my current short-cut.
>

Note, the DEFINITON of Linz says that P has ITS OWN COPY of the input,
and that it makes ANOTHER copy of that input, none of which your program
does, so you first need to actually PROVE it is equivalent.

Second, it appears from that way you describe things that these multiple
level of calls to H make the simulated version behave differently then a
directly "executed" verision, which makes H NOT a Computation (or the
copy in H not an correct copy).

The call to H in P is just like any other code in P, and needs to be
treated exactly the same. You have likely totally broken your
equivalence claims between function H and Turing Machine H.

The code of the decider is not allowed to be "special" to the decider.

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 01:01 UTC

On 5/22/2022 7:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/22/22 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/22/2022 6:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 5/22/22 7:16 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2022 5:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/22/22 5:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> So then you now agree that the nested invocation of H(P,P) would
>>>>>> derive the same execution trace of its input that the the outer
>>>>>> one did?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes seem to have a confusion. Yes, the second simulator will
>>>>> produce and identical trace to the first one, AS A SEPERATE TRACE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So the first invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>
>>>> And the second (nested) invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>>> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>>> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>>> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>
>>>>  From this we can see the pattern that the C/x86 function named P
>>>> will never reach its last instruction, thus conclusively proving
>>>> that when H(P,P) rejects its input as non-halting it is correct.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, because the whole second trace is conditioned on the halt
>>> deciding of H. So, if the top level H aborts at that point, then the
>>> trace become incorrect by being incomplete (it doesn't show the FULL
>>> Halting behavior of the input, which refers to the machine it
>>> represents, which did not halt there.
>> The fact that I just proved that the simulated input to H(P,P) never
>> reaches its own final state conclusively proves that it is non-halting
>> regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>
>
> You proved that the INCOMPLETE simulation of the input by H doesn't
> reach a final state.
>

So in other words you simply are not bright enough to understand that
the emulated P can't possibly ever reach its own last instruction.
I honestly can't believe that you are that stupid.

> NOT that the CORRECT simulation of the input by a CORRECT simulator
> doesn't.
>
> You just are proving that you don't know the meaning of CORRECT. (or are
> just lying).

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ stupid or liar ? ]

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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 01:05 UTC

On 5/22/2022 7:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> On 5/22/22 7:55 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 5/22/2022 6:33 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 22:59:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/22/22 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Interesting point, that you eed to talk about "reverse-engineering"
>>>>> this
>>>>> output implies that you don't actually have a program to generate it.
>>>>>
>>>> Not at all. This program took me a whole man-year.
>>>> The most difficult part was to make the nested simulations work
>>>> correctly.
>>>>
>>> That suggests that something is wrong.
>>> An interpreted language. which is what an emulator is, should  be
>>> able to
>>> interpret anything written in valid grammar for that language. An
>>> intepreter for the language itself shouldn't be a special case.
>>>
>>> However it seems you are special-casing a call to H to try to outwit
>>> Linz.
>>
>> I had to create the whole x86utm operating system before a C function
>> would be able to invoke an x86 emulator on another C function and step
>> though its emulation one instruction at a time.
>>
>> The tricky part of this is when the C function H emulates a function P
>> that calls this same C function H that emulates another copy of P that
>> calls H yet again to an arbitrary recursive depth...
>>
>> Since the x86utm operating system directly executes the COFF object
>> file output of the Microsoft C compiler (prior to linking) the x86utm
>> operating system had no direct access to any of the C library code.
>>
>> I had about the three man-month of wasted effort trying to make my own
>> very simple C compiler. That is not included in the man-year of effort.
>> The C compiler was going to compile into a simplified x86 machine code.
>> That I found a fully operational very well developed x86 emulator
>> enabled my current short-cut.
>>
>
> Note, the DEFINITON of Linz says that P has ITS OWN COPY of the input,
> and that it makes ANOTHER copy of that input, none of which your program
> does, so you first need to actually PROVE it is equivalent.

THIS IS THE GENERIC PATTERN.
For any program H that might determine if programs halt, a
"pathological"
program P, called with some input, can pass its own source and its
input to
H and then specifically do the opposite of what H predicts P will
do. No H
can exist that handles this case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

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 by: Richard Damon - Mon, 23 May 2022 01:11 UTC

On 5/22/22 9:01 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 7:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/22/22 7:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2022 6:52 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 5/22/22 7:16 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/22/2022 5:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/22/22 5:59 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> So then you now agree that the nested invocation of H(P,P) would
>>>>>>> derive the same execution trace of its input that the the outer
>>>>>>> one did?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes seem to have a confusion. Yes, the second simulator will
>>>>>> produce and identical trace to the first one, AS A SEPERATE TRACE.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So the first invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>>>>> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>>>> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>>>> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>>>> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>>
>>>>> And the second (nested) invocation of H(P,P) derives this trace
>>>>> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
>>>>> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>>>>> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
>>>>> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>>>>> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
>>>>> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>>>>
>>>>>  From this we can see the pattern that the C/x86 function named P
>>>>> will never reach its last instruction, thus conclusively proving
>>>>> that when H(P,P) rejects its input as non-halting it is correct.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, because the whole second trace is conditioned on the halt
>>>> deciding of H. So, if the top level H aborts at that point, then the
>>>> trace become incorrect by being incomplete (it doesn't show the FULL
>>>> Halting behavior of the input, which refers to the machine it
>>>> represents, which did not halt there.
>>> The fact that I just proved that the simulated input to H(P,P) never
>>> reaches its own final state conclusively proves that it is
>>> non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>>
>>
>> You proved that the INCOMPLETE simulation of the input by H doesn't
>> reach a final state.
>>
>
> So in other words you simply are not bright enough to understand that
> the emulated P can't possibly ever reach its own last instruction.
> I honestly can't believe that you are that stupid.

H can not emulate the input P to the final state, yes.

But that isn't the definition of Halting.

Halting is defined by the ACTUAL MACHINE P reaching the final state, or
a CORRECT (unaborted) simulation reaching the final state.

P DOES do this if H(P,P) returns 0, so that can't be the correct answer.

YOu are just confirming your ignorance of the topic, as you keep
thinking that an aborted simulation not reaching the final state shows
the machine is non-halting.

>
>> NOT that the CORRECT simulation of the input by a CORRECT simulator
>> doesn't.
>>
>> You just are proving that you don't know the meaning of CORRECT. (or
>> are just lying).
>
>

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ stupid or liar ? ]

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Mon, 23 May 2022 01:20 UTC

On 5/22/22 9:05 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/22/2022 7:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>
>> On 5/22/22 7:55 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/22/2022 6:33 PM, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 22:59:28 UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 5/22/2022 4:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/22/22 5:06 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting point, that you eed to talk about
>>>>>> "reverse-engineering" this
>>>>>> output implies that you don't actually have a program to generate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all. This program took me a whole man-year.
>>>>> The most difficult part was to make the nested simulations work
>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>
>>>> That suggests that something is wrong.
>>>> An interpreted language. which is what an emulator is, should  be
>>>> able to
>>>> interpret anything written in valid grammar for that language. An
>>>> intepreter for the language itself shouldn't be a special case.
>>>>
>>>> However it seems you are special-casing a call to H to try to outwit
>>>> Linz.
>>>
>>> I had to create the whole x86utm operating system before a C function
>>> would be able to invoke an x86 emulator on another C function and
>>> step though its emulation one instruction at a time.
>>>
>>> The tricky part of this is when the C function H emulates a function
>>> P that calls this same C function H that emulates another copy of P
>>> that calls H yet again to an arbitrary recursive depth...
>>>
>>> Since the x86utm operating system directly executes the COFF object
>>> file output of the Microsoft C compiler (prior to linking) the x86utm
>>> operating system had no direct access to any of the C library code.
>>>
>>> I had about the three man-month of wasted effort trying to make my
>>> own very simple C compiler. That is not included in the man-year of
>>> effort.
>>> The C compiler was going to compile into a simplified x86 machine code.
>>> That I found a fully operational very well developed x86 emulator
>>> enabled my current short-cut.
>>>
>>
>> Note, the DEFINITON of Linz says that P has ITS OWN COPY of the input,
>> and that it makes ANOTHER copy of that input, none of which your
>> program does, so you first need to actually PROVE it is equivalent.
>
> THIS IS THE GENERIC PATTERN.
>      For any program H that might determine if programs halt, a
> "pathological"
>      program P, called with some input, can pass its own source and its
> input to
>      H and then specifically do the opposite of what H predicts P will
> do. No H
>      can exist that handles this case.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
>
>

Right, but the simplified version you are quoting isn't quite rigerous,
there are actual requirements on the program H to be used in that manner.

Note, with Turing Machines, we don't need additional quaifications, as
all actual Turing Machines meet the requirements.

I will admit not being an expert on what requirements need to be put on
the program H, but I think it basically boils done to be an actual
computation, being a DEFINITE DETERMINISTIC algorithm whose answer
depend ONLY on the defined input.

This basically says it has a Turing Machine that is a computational
equivalent for it.

Note, this means that ALL copies of H must behave the same and return
the same answer for H(P,P) regardless of the 'context' the call was made
in, thus when H(P,P) emulates P(P) calling H(P,P), we KNOW that copy of
H will do the exact same thing as the outer H(P,P).

Thus, since the outer one is stipulated to abort and return 0 for
H(P,P), so will the one called by P, and thus there actually is NO
infinite simulation cycle that actually happens, even if H thinks there
was one, it was just wrong.

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: Python - Mon, 23 May 2022 11:55 UTC

Peter Olcott wrote:
> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.

This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
write down such a sentence and believe it.

Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Mon, 23 May 2022 12:22 UTC

On 5/23/22 7:55 AM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>
> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>
> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>
>

As near as I can figure it, Peter thinks that because H stops simulating
its P input, that P never halts, because that copy never gets to the
final state that a fully run P will get to.

Yes, he confuses all sorts of things, forcing distinctions between
things that are supposed to be identical and merges things that are
supposed to be distinct.

It seems he as confinced himself of his own false ideas, and twists
reality as much as needed to try to get it to conform to what he thinks
he needs to make it fit.

He can't afford to look at rebuttals, because they show him more areas
that he needs to twist to make things conform and he is running out of
things to distort to make it happen.

This is the typical result when you takes as a core foundation something
that isn't true.

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 13:29 UTC

On 5/23/2022 6:55 AM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>
> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>
> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>
>

computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
a final state. (Linz:1990:234)

Linz, Peter 1990. An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata.
Lexington/Toronto: D. C. Heath and Company.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 13:33 UTC

On 5/23/2022 7:22 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 5/23/22 7:55 AM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>
>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>>
>> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>>
>>
>
> As near as I can figure it, Peter thinks that because H stops simulating
> its P input, that P never halts, because that copy never gets to the
> final state that a fully run P will get to.
>

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

In other words you are simply too freaking stupid to understand that the
correctly simulated P never reaches its last instruction whether or not
this simulation is ever aborted.

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax // push P
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx // push P
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

<t6g3t8$1fau$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: pyt...@example.invalid (Python)
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Subject: Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point
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Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 15:58:00 +0200
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 by: Python - Mon, 23 May 2022 13:58 UTC

Peter Olcott, demented kook, wrote:
> On 5/23/2022 6:55 AM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>
>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>>
>> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>>
>>
>
> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
> a final state. (Linz:1990:234)
>
> Linz, Peter 1990. An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata.
> Lexington/Toronto: D. C. Heath and Company.

This is not even remotely related to your absurd claims, come on Peter!

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

<871qwk1g1y.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

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Subject: Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]
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 by: Ben - Mon, 23 May 2022 14:26 UTC

Python <python@example.invalid> writes:

> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>
> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
> write down such a sentence and believe it.

This is not a unique case. He really thinks in this way. For example

"The fact the a computation stops running does not prove that it
halts."

"the fact that a computation halts does not entail that it is a halting
computation"

What's more, he can make entirely contradictory statements, only days
apart, without any concern for which one is true. For example, I gave
up trying to find out which of these was supposed to be true:

"Furthermore I have repeated H.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ transitions to H.qn many
times."

"No nitwit H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ transitions to H.qy as I have told you many
times."

He simply wouldn't say.

Reading back the notes I made over the years, it's clear that his view
changes often but only as a result of being hemmed in by unassailable
facts. He's been going at it so long now that the facts have him backed
into a corner.

--
Ben.

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 14:33 UTC

On 5/23/2022 8:58 AM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott, demented kook, wrote:
>> On 5/23/2022 6:55 AM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>>
>>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>>>
>>> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it
>> enters a final state. (Linz:1990:234)
>>
>> Linz, Peter 1990. An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata.
>> Lexington/Toronto: D. C. Heath and Company.
>
> This is not even remotely related to your absurd claims, come on Peter!
>
>

Halting DOES NOT MEAN STOPS RUNNING,
Halting means reaches its final state.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 14:38 UTC

On 5/23/2022 9:26 AM, Ben wrote:
> Python <python@example.invalid> writes:
>
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>
>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>
> This is not a unique case. He really thinks in this way. For example
>
> "The fact the a computation stops running does not prove that it
> halts."
>

Since I proved that this is correct on the basis of the Linz definition
and you know that it is correct on this basis that makes you a
despicable liar. What is your motive for being a despicable liar?

YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS TRUE
A computation that has been aborted stops running yet never halts.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

<t6g6j4$sth$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: pyt...@example.invalid (Python)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point
? ]
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 16:43:47 +0200
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 by: Python - Mon, 23 May 2022 14:43 UTC

Peter Olcott, old fart, wrote:
> On 5/23/2022 8:58 AM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott, demented kook, wrote:
>>> On 5/23/2022 6:55 AM, Python wrote:
>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>>>
>>>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>>>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>>>>
>>>> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it
>>> enters a final state. (Linz:1990:234)
>>>
>>> Linz, Peter 1990. An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata.
>>> Lexington/Toronto: D. C. Heath and Company.
>>
>> This is not even remotely related to your absurd claims, come on Peter!
>>
>>
>
> Halting DOES NOT MEAN STOPS RUNNING,
> Halting means reaches its final state.
>

*facepalm*

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 14:47 UTC

On 5/23/2022 9:43 AM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott, old fart, wrote:
>> On 5/23/2022 8:58 AM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott, demented kook, wrote:
>>>> On 5/23/2022 6:55 AM, Python wrote:
>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>>>>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it
>>>> enters a final state. (Linz:1990:234)
>>>>
>>>> Linz, Peter 1990. An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata.
>>>> Lexington/Toronto: D. C. Heath and Company.
>>>
>>> This is not even remotely related to your absurd claims, come on Peter!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Halting DOES NOT MEAN STOPS RUNNING,
>> Halting means reaches its final state.
>>
>
> *facepalm*

I know that you are ignorant about this, yet at least you are not a
liar. The definition of halting does mean reaches final state, this is a
term of the art of computer science thus overrides and supersedes its
common meaning.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

<t6gkc9$6hg$1@dont-email.me>

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From: jbb...@notatt.com (Jeff Barnett)
Newsgroups: comp.theory,comp.ai.philosophy,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point
? ]
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 12:39:00 -0600
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 by: Jeff Barnett - Mon, 23 May 2022 18:39 UTC

On 5/23/2022 5:55 AM, Python wrote:
> Peter Olcott wrote:
>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>
> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>
> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
Insightful observation. I have been curious, since he is now a
pathological liar, whether he lies about cancer too. I wouldn't be
surprised. As to cognitive disorders, I believe he his learning
disabilities compounded by the attention span of a roach. I don't
believe that any thing said here will cure any of his observed issues.

As a test, I speculate he will respond to this message, if at all, with
either many identical lines of capitol letters or yet another copy of
his faked up trace. Gentlemen, Place Your Bets!
--
Jeff Barnett

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

<p7GdnVUYIK05Shb_nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 18:51 UTC

On 5/23/2022 1:39 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 5/23/2022 5:55 AM, Python wrote:
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>
>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>>
>> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
> Insightful observation. I have been curious, since he is now a
> pathological liar, whether he lies about cancer too. I wouldn't be
> surprised. As to cognitive disorders, I believe he his learning
> disabilities compounded by the attention span of a roach. I don't
> believe that any thing said here will cure any of his observed issues.
>
> As a test, I speculate he will respond to this message, if at all, with
> either many identical lines of capitol letters or yet another copy of
> his faked up trace. Gentlemen, Place Your Bets!

_P()
[00001352](01) 55 push ebp
[00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00001358](01) 50 push eax // push P
[00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[0000135c](01) 51 push ecx // push P
[0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
[00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
[00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
[00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
[0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
[0000136c](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]

People with sufficient technical competence that are not God damned
liars can easily verify that the following trace provided for the x86
emulated input to H(P,P) for one emulation and one nested emulation is
correct entirely on the basis of the above x86 source code for P.

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
....[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
....[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
....[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
....[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
....[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
....[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
....[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
....[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
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 by: olcott - Mon, 23 May 2022 22:05 UTC

On 5/23/2022 9:26 AM, Ben wrote:
> Python <python@example.invalid> writes:
>
>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>
>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>
> This is not a unique case. He really thinks in this way. For example
>
> "The fact the a computation stops running does not prove that it
> halts."

The term "halt" in computer science is a term of the art that overrides
and supersedes its common meaning as many terms of the art do.

A TM that halts does not merely stop running it comes to a normal
termination in a final state having executed all of its instructions to
completion.

computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
a final state. (Linz:1990:234)

Linz, Peter 1990. An Introduction to Formal Languages and Automata.
Lexington/Toronto: D. C. Heath and Company. (317-320)

I still plan on getting the TM does this week.
I am finally no longer ill.

Neutropenia from Chemotherapy totally shuts down your immune system for
two days beginning on the 7th day after chemo. During the rest of the
week surrounding these two days one's immune system is very weak, then
(at least in my case) it comes back to normal. By the 20th day after
chemo my Neutrophil levels are double their normal number. This is
because of a little $8000 robot that they tape to my arm.

https://www.neulasta.com/-/media/Themes/Amgen/Neulasta-com/Neulasta-com/img/content-images/onbody_injector-png.png?h=556&w=442&la=en&hash=D1C6F2DD42EC248179B3BDFA600CDBF8

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Are my reviewers incompetent or dishonest? [ closure on one point ? ]

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 by: Richard Damon - Mon, 23 May 2022 23:00 UTC

On 5/23/22 9:33 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/23/2022 7:22 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/23/22 7:55 AM, Python wrote:
>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
>>>> ... it is non-halting regardless of whether or not it stops running.
>>>
>>> This is quite a serious cognitive dissonance to be able to
>>> write down such a sentence and believe it.
>>>
>>> Cancer is not the worse illness you have, Peter.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> As near as I can figure it, Peter thinks that because H stops
>> simulating its P input, that P never halts, because that copy never
>> gets to the final state that a fully run P will get to.
>>
>
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> ...[00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> ...[00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp      // enter P
> ...[00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> ...[00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> ...[00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax      // push P
> ...[00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> ...[0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51         push ecx      // push P
> ...[0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>
> In other words you are simply too freaking stupid to understand that the
> correctly simulated P never reaches its last instruction whether or not
> this simulation is ever aborted.

No, you confuse the concept of a CORRECT simulation with what H deos.

H generates an ABORTED simulation. An ABORTED SIMULATION are NEVER
correct, because the machine they are simulating continue to run after
that point.

You just don't understand that the behavior of a PROGRAM is not
dependent on the behavior of an individual execution which isn't allowed
to complete.

P(P) Halts, the CORRECT simulation of the input to H(P,P), i.e the
equivalent to UTM(P,P) does too.

THe fact that H can't do that just shows that it can't do it, and it is
just plain wrong if it claims to be a Halt Decider.

If it gives up the claim to being a Halt Decider, then it could possibly
redefine what the "behavior of its input" is, but then is can't be used
to be a counter example for the Halting Problem.

Your failure to understand just proves that you do not understand the
very basics of computations, and apparently a substantial part of your
connection with reality.

>
> _P()
> [00001352](01)  55              push ebp
> [00001353](02)  8bec            mov ebp,esp
> [00001355](03)  8b4508          mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00001358](01)  50              push eax      // push P
> [00001359](03)  8b4d08          mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [0000135c](01)  51              push ecx      // push P
> [0000135d](05)  e840feffff      call 000011a2 // call H
> [00001362](03)  83c408          add esp,+08
> [00001365](02)  85c0            test eax,eax
> [00001367](02)  7402            jz 0000136b
> [00001369](02)  ebfe            jmp 00001369
> [0000136b](01)  5d              pop ebp
> [0000136c](01)  c3              ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>
>

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