I need to recover from Google's attack on privacy starting June 30th.

For good reasons, I will never set up 2FA/2SV on any device:
Not on Windows.
Not on Android.
And certainly never on iOS (Apple will _never_ allow you to remove it!)

For privacy reasons, I've never set up a mothership account on Windows.
Nor on Android.

And both Windows & Android work just fine without that mothership account.
In some ways, even better.

Specifically, I've had no mothership account set up on Windows or Android
and Windows Thunderbird works just fine with OAuth2 without that mothership
account on Windows.

Therefore... I had _assumed_ it would be the same on Android; but it's not.
Why not?

What's different?

Why must Android create an account on the device for OAuth2 but Windows
doesn't need to create an account on the device for OAuth2 to work?

In my tests just now switching from Android K9 mail (which doesn't support
OAuth2) to Android FairMail (which does support OAuth2), that process ended
up _CREATING_ an account for Google in the Android operating system!

I _never_ want my phone to be set to _any_ account.
Not Samsung. Not Google. Not anyone.

All I want to do is log into my Google Account (rarely on a phone) to
access my email.

That should _never_ require _creating_ an account on the device!
Not on Windows.
Not on Android.

And yet, it does.

It's a basic privacy thing to _not_ set up an account on any mobile device!
Not Android (which has _never_ required an account before!)
Not iOS (and yes, I know Apple requires tracking you by your account)
Not Windows. (and yes, I know about Windows 11 requiring an account)

Since the instant you create an account on an Android phone, your privacy
is toast.

I suspect it will be the same with the Thunderbird port of K9 mail even as
K9 mail _never_ needed to _create_ an account in the operating system.

Why must Android FairMail OAuth2 create an account on the device but
Windows TB OAuth2 doesn't need to create an account on the device?
--
The instant you set up a device mothership account, your privacy is toast.

Andy Burnelli wrote:

> Why must Android create an account on the device for OAuth2 but Windows
> doesn't need to create an account on the device for OAuth2 to work?

I thought you had mentioned in another post that on android, google require
oauth to use an on-device google account, rather than the app to store
credentials to the google account? Otherwise it requires the app to be audited.

Adding the google account sounds like the way (from the developers PoV) to avoid
the restriction.

Op 21-06-2022 om 17:29 schreef Andy Burnelli:
> That should _never_ require _creating_ an account on the device!
> Not on Windows.
> Not on Android.
>
> And yet, it does.

You seem te forget Android=Google.
As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a Google
account.

On Tue, 21 Jun 20

"Dirk T. Verbeek" <dirk@example.com> wrote:

> As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a
Google
> account.

Course you can. I'm posting on an Android tablet that doesn't
require Google. It's an Amazon tablet that requires an
Amazon account... :-/

On 21/06/2022 18:12, Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
> Op 21-06-2022 om 17:29 schreef Andy Burnelli:
>> That should _never_ require _creating_ an account on the device!
>> Not on Windows.
>> Not on Android.
>>
>> And yet, it does.
>
> You seem te forget Android=Google.
> As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a Google
> account.

Of course you can, but it will be crippled (forget about the Play Store,
for example) and you will get reminders to set up a Google account.

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:

>> You seem te forget Android=Google.
>> As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a Google
>> account.
>
> Of course you can, but it will be crippled (forget about the Play Store,
> for example) and you will get reminders to set up a Google account.

Please don't say things like that because people might believe you.

I don't mind people saying things that are wrong, as the last two posters
did, but then they force the rest of us to correct them since they're both
dead wrong.

Rest assured I have no Google Account set up on my Android phone.
Rest assured I've had this for _many_ years. Many phones. Many versions.

Rest assured I can do _everything_ you can do (and perhaps more) on it.
Without the Google Account. (And I'm not rooted.)

For example, there are plenty of FOSS Google Play Store clients out there.
And, interestingly, Google Play Protect works fine _without_ an account.

Those who aren't on the Android newsgroup don't know this.

But Android without a Google Account works essentially the same as Windows
10 does without a Microsoft account.

Which is to say that Android works just fine _without_ a Google Account.
--
Setting up a mothership account on your Windows/Android/iOS computing
device is the same as surrendering your privacy for no gain whatsoever.

Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:

> As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a Google
> account.

All Android phones work just fine without the Google Account setup.

There's no need for the Google mothership account on an unrooted phone.
<https://i.postimg.cc/NG5pHyBx/aurora10.jpg> No need for a Google Account

There's no need for the Samsung Galaxy mothership account either.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8C1wzk8r/galaxy01.jpg> No Samsung Galaxy account

Even Google Play Protect & Google updates work fine w/o the Google Account.
<https://i.postimg.cc/FRnfbBrT/aurora06.jpg> Google Play Store still works

There are _better_ Google Play Store clients than the one Google provides.
<https://i.postimg.cc/G2QP0CFz/aurora15.jpg> Its a well-supported FOSS app

In fact the FOSS Google Play Store clients are far _better_ apps because
they allow you to search the Google Play Store repo using excellent filters
<https://i.postimg.cc/CL9GpzVc/aurora01.jpg> FOSS Google Play Store client
<https://i.postimg.cc/Lspjhw5f/aurora02.jpg> Filters Google won't allow
<https://i.postimg.cc/PrvDyT8Y/aurora03.jpg> Automatic & extended updates
<https://i.postimg.cc/Z5kdD2rg/aurora04.jpg> Choose where to download APKs
<https://i.postimg.cc/RF06HBB3/aurora05.jpg> Filters Google won't give you

The result is every time you install an app on Android, it's already on
Windows, since Android and Windows share the same file system over Wi-Fi.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zBjX5kJ/aurora09.jpg> Save all APKs on Windows

And you can just slide the APK from Windows to Android over Wi-FI too.
<https://i.postimg.cc/wvsbcNBz/scrcpy05.jpg> Drag APK from Windows

Essentially, your Android phone works _better_ without the Google Account.
--
To add a mothership account to any computing device is to allow that
mothersship (Google, Samsung, Microsoft, or Apple) to destroy your privacy.

AJL wrote:

>> As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a
> Google
>> account.
>
> Course you can. I'm posting on an Android tablet that doesn't
> require Google. It's an Amazon tablet that requires an
> Amazon account... :-/

On Windows 10 and on Android, the mothership account isn't needed.

As far as I know, only Windows 11 and iOS _require_ a mothership account
tracking you; but I admit I don't know anything about Amazon tablets.

Are you sure you must have that Amazon mothership account?
Why?
--
To set up a mothership account on a device is to surrender privacy.
Wnfftktijlfhfb.

On 6/21/2022 2:44 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> AJL wrote:

>>> As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a
>>> Google account.

>> Course you can. I'm posting on an Android tablet that doesn't
>> require Google. It's an Amazon tablet that requires an
>> Amazon account... :-/

> Are you sure you must have that Amazon mothership account?

Apparently I lied. Googling I see that there are ways to get around it.

AJL wrote:

>> Are you sure you must have that Amazon mothership account?
>
> Googling I see that there are ways to get around it.

I'm glad you looked because most people never think to "test" the system.
Most people seem to do exactly what the Marketing motherships tell them.

Yet, it's quite rare that an operating system _requires_ a mothership
account set up on the device (only iOS forces that as far as I know).

I don't know if that Amazon tablet takes "normal" Android apps.
But if it does, then if you can load a FOSS client, you're all set.

For example, does "Aurora Store" work with that Amazon tablet?
<https://auroraoss.com/>

Note that's just a client. The apps it downloads are the same apps as on
google play (it's just a Google Play Store client - that's all it is).
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

Andy Burns wrote:

>> Why must Android create an account on the device for OAuth2 but Windows
>> doesn't need to create an account on the device for OAuth2 to work?
>
> I thought you had mentioned in another post that on android, google require
> oauth to use an on-device google account, rather than the app to store
> credentials to the google account? Otherwise it requires the app to be audited.
>
> Adding the google account sounds like the way (from the developers PoV) to avoid
> the restriction.

Hi Andy,
I communicated with the developer of FairMail whom I respect and honor and
trust. He said this about why FairMail doesn't do what Thunderbird does:

"It is possible without an on-device Google account too via a web OAuth
flow, but for this there needs to be a yearly security audit costing
up to $75,000. This is not an option for an app which is basically
provided for free. Please see here for more information:
<https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/FAQ.md#user-content-faq111>"

The good news is we almost always figure out everything we need to.
It looks like only the well-funded apps will work with Google OAuth2.

If folks know of an app that _does_ work with OAuth2 _without_ having to
create a Google Account on the device, please post.

Otherwise, that's the answer specifically for _why_ it did what it did.

There's more to the answer for anyone really wanting a solution though, as
there are other options that I don't yet have experience with such as
forwarding mail to a non-Google account, 2FA/2SV/MSV via OTP (e.g.
FreeOTP), USB tokens, etc.

If you know more about _those_ options, please let us know as we can all
learn from the solution to this problem.

On 6/21/2022 4:13 PM, Andy Burnelli wrote:

> I don't know if that Amazon tablet takes "normal" Android apps.

The current Amazon Fire OS is a fork of Android 9 and has run everything
I've tried on it (so far).

> But if it does, then if you can load a FOSS client, you're all set.
> For example, does "Aurora Store" work with that Amazon tablet?
> <https://auroraoss.com/> Note that's just a client. The apps it
> downloads are the same apps as on google play (it's just a Google
> Play Store client - that's all it is).

I have no need since I have installed the real Google Play Store on my
Amazon tablets. It works just fine on them as do my Google apps Gmail,
Chrome, Files, and Drive. And of course the Amazon Appstore is still
there so I have an extra bit of variety in my app shopping. Last, I
sideloaded some apps (like Groundhog) from my Archives that are no
longer available in the stores.

AJL wrote:

>> I don't know if that Amazon tablet takes "normal" Android apps.
>
> The current Amazon Fire OS is a fork of Android 9 and has run everything
> I've tried on it (so far).
>
>> But if it does, then if you can load a FOSS client, you're all set.
>> For example, does "Aurora Store" work with that Amazon tablet?
>> <https://auroraoss.com/> Note that's just a client. The apps it
>> downloads are the same apps as on google play (it's just a Google
>> Play Store client - that's all it is).
>
> I have no need since I have installed the real Google Play Store on my
> Amazon tablets. It works just fine on them as do my Google apps Gmail,
> Chrome, Files, and Drive. And of course the Amazon Appstore is still
> there so I have an extra bit of variety in my app shopping. Last, I
> sideloaded some apps (like Groundhog) from my Archives that are no
> longer available in the stores.

Understood.

You're fine the way it is, and that's all that matters.

For others, the advantage of a FOSS Google Play Store client isn't so much
that it doesn't require a Google Account on the phone but that it has
fantastic filters that Google will _never_ give you in the Google Play
Store, and yet the FOSS Google Play Store clients give you exactly the same
app (they're just front ends to the Google Play Repository).

You can spoof the device and the operating system and you can filter out
apps with ads or apps that incorporate GSF and you can filter out payware.

Perhaps best of all, you can _save_ the APK directly onto your Android
device for future use (and, if you have Android set up like I do, that
saves it directly onto a Windows drive at the very same time & location).

As far as I know, none of that functionality is in the official Google Play
Store client app. It's only in the FOSS Google Play Store clients.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

On 21/06/2022 17.29, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> I need to recover from Google's attack on privacy starting June 30th.
>
> For good reasons, I will never set up 2FA/2SV on any device:
> Not on Windows.
> Not on Android.
> And certainly never on iOS (Apple will _never_ allow you to remove it!)
>
> For privacy reasons, I've never set up a mothership account on Windows.
> Nor on Android.

Microsoft is going to disable local accounts soon.

>
> And both Windows & Android work just fine without that mothership account.
> In some ways, even better.
>
> Specifically, I've had no mothership account set up on Windows or Android
> and Windows Thunderbird works just fine with OAuth2 without that mothership
> account on Windows.
>
> Therefore... I had _assumed_ it would be the same on Android; but it's not.
> Why not?
>
> What's different?

That Thunderbird is not created/owned by Google nor M$.

You can use K9 in Android, which has no such restriction, except that it
does not support oauth2 AFAIR. However, K9 and Thunderbird have entered
an alliance and will be renamed as Thunderbird, I heard; thus it will
probably get Oauth2 support.

>
> Why must Android create an account on the device for OAuth2 but Windows
> doesn't need to create an account on the device for OAuth2 to work?

Designed that way, using the system provided methods of authentication,
not internal to the mail app. It is obvious.

If you don't like that answer, Google really likes you to login and will
do whatever you can to make you do it.

So, it is intentional. Stop moaning :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Op 21-06-2022 om 23:37 schreef Andy Burnelli:
> Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
>
>> As far as I know you can't even get Android to work without a Google
>> account.
>
> All Android phones work just fine without the Google Account setup.
>
> There's no need for the Google mothership account on an unrooted phone.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/NG5pHyBx/aurora10.jpg> No need for a Google Account
>
> There's no need for the Samsung Galaxy mothership account either.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/8C1wzk8r/galaxy01.jpg> No Samsung Galaxy account
>
> Even Google Play Protect & Google updates work fine w/o the Google Account.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/FRnfbBrT/aurora06.jpg> Google Play Store still works
>
> There are _better_ Google Play Store clients than the one Google provides.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/G2QP0CFz/aurora15.jpg> Its a well-supported FOSS app
>
> In fact the FOSS Google Play Store clients are far _better_ apps because
> they allow you to search the Google Play Store repo using excellent
> filters <https://i.postimg.cc/CL9GpzVc/aurora01.jpg> FOSS Google Play
> Store client
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Lspjhw5f/aurora02.jpg> Filters Google won't allow
> <https://i.postimg.cc/PrvDyT8Y/aurora03.jpg> Automatic & extended updates
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Z5kdD2rg/aurora04.jpg> Choose where to download APKs
> <https://i.postimg.cc/RF06HBB3/aurora05.jpg> Filters Google won't give you
>
> The result is every time you install an app on Android, it's already on
> Windows, since Android and Windows share the same file system over Wi-Fi.
>  <https://i.postimg.cc/8zBjX5kJ/aurora09.jpg> Save all APKs on Windows
>
> And you can just slide the APK from Windows to Android over Wi-FI too.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/wvsbcNBz/scrcpy05.jpg> Drag APK from Windows
>
> Essentially, your Android phone works _better_ without the Google Account.

Interesting, thanks.

Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> For privacy reasons, I've never set up a mothership account on Windows.
>> Nor on Android.
>
> Microsoft is going to disable local accounts soon.

I'm aware of that mothership-login requirement for Windows 11, where I
wonder aloud what their "stated" justification of requiring that mothership
tracking account is.

Just as with Apple, the stated reason isn't ever the real reason; but I
would be curious what Microsoft's _stated_ rationale is for _requiring_ a
mothership tracking account just for us to use the operating system that we
paid for that they own (we essentially rent a license to use it from them).

>> What's different?
>
> That Thunderbird is not created/owned by Google nor M$.

Actaully, I heard back from the developer, and that's only half the story.

You are correct that Google gets to control what Android does, and Google
would "prefer" that you create a mothership tracking account on Android,
but at least Google doesn't "directly" require that mothership tracking
account on Android.

The FairMail developer, whom I trust and respect, told me he would have to
pay yearly up to $75K for audits if he set up the OAuth2 authentication
process like Thunderbird does.

He referred me to this FAQ question which, less directly, says as much:
<https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/FAQ.md#user-content-faq111>

Luckily, in the end, as a group as a whole, we almost always find the
_real_ answers to all questions we ask, where in this case the answer to
the question of What's Different between Thunderbird & FairMail is that
Mozilla has deeper pockets for dealing with Google shenanigans.

In summary, yes, you're right that Google controlled what happens on
Android in this case, but it's just as correct to say that FairMail "could"
have done what Thunderbird does, but at a huge expense that isn't worth it
to the developer (which I completely agree with as the developer's choice
is eminently logical and reasonable).

> You can use K9 in Android, which has no such restriction, except that it
> does not support oauth2 AFAIR. However, K9 and Thunderbird have entered
> an alliance and will be renamed as Thunderbird, I heard; thus it will
> probably get Oauth2 support.

Yes. I'm aware of that (and posted a thread about that to garner more
information) so we can "hope" that K9/TB when it's released on Android will
have the OAuth2 done the way Thunderbird on Windows does it today.

That way users like me who do not have a mothership tracking account on the
phone will be able to use it the same way we use Thunderbird on Windows
without a mothership tracking account on the phone.

>> Why must Android create an account on the device for OAuth2 but Windows
>> doesn't need to create an account on the device for OAuth2 to work?
>
> Designed that way, using the system provided methods of authentication,
> not internal to the mail app. It is obvious.

Actually it wasn't obvious to me that Google will allow FairMail to
authenticate OAuth2 the way Thunderbird does if they pay about $75K/year
for an audit that is acceptable to Google.

That it was obvious to you is commendable; but it took the developer
directly talking to me to make it obvious to me.

> If you don't like that answer, Google really likes you to login and will
> do whatever you can to make you do it.

I don't disagree Google "really likes" us to create a mothership tracking
account on our Android phones, but the entire reason I'm not using the
GMail app on Android is that it creates a mothership tracking account on
the phone.

I'm not going to give up now, as there are "potential" options such as
finding an OAuth2 app on Android that does authenticate the way Thunderbird
does it (i.e., they pay for the $75K yearly audit); however it's not
likely.

There are still a few options left, as I generally solve almost all
problems I have even when Google hates the way that I solve them.

> So, it is intentional. Stop moaning :-p

I see the smiley, but I do want to make the point that I'm not "moaning"
about anything; I am trying to _understand_ why it is what it is.

You seem to have inherently understood that Mozilla pays for the yearly
$75K audit and that FairMail does not; but that wasn't known to me until
the developer himself made it clear.

We're different that way.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:

>> Essentially, your Android phone works _better_ without the Google Account.
>
> Interesting, thanks.

Since I care that people get good technical actionable responses, I'll add
more to that response so that others can benefit from my years of
experience operating an Android phone without a mothership tracking
account.

For many years and many Android phones and Android versions I've _not_ had
a Google Account on my phone, and my phone works just fine without it.

In the very beginning, when I was rooted on a Samsung Galaxy S3, I
_removed_ the Google Account; but now I simply set up any new phone by
_skipping_ the Account-Creation step.

The phone works fine without a Google Account set up on the phone, even if
you happen to use a Google email address.

Most Google apps don't need a login, e.g., Chrome & the Phone & Messenger
apps, but each of those already has perfectly suitable 1:1 replacements.

For example, I disable the default Chrome browser & use ungoogled chromium:
<https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium-android/>
And, in that case, there's no ill effect whatsoever not using Chrome.

But not having a Google Account on the phone does necessitate substitution
of some of the Google Apps with suitable 1:1 non-Google replacements since
some apps _create_ a mothership tracking account the instant you log into
them!

For example, the GMail app _creates_ the mothership-tracking account the
instant you log into it; so you simply need to select a non-Google MUA
replacement app (of which there are plenty).
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/eu.faircode.email/>
Which you can use with an number of 2SV/2FA/MSV/MFA authentication methods.

As another example, logging into Google Play Store also _creates_ a
mothership tracking account on the phone; but luckily, the FOSS Google Play
Store client is everything that the Google Play Store app is, and more.
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.aurora.store/>

There are _plenty_ of Google apps that do NOT require a login to work
though, such as the Google Maps app, although they have recently removed
the offline maps functionality from that Google Maps app if you don't log
into it (which isn't a big deal given the plethora of offline nav apps).
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/>

As with Google Maps though, some Google apps have more functionality if you
log into them, such as YouTube (where you can subscribe if you log into
them); but the FOSS YouTube clients (e.g., NewPipe) allow you to do that
with an anonymous account that works just fine for me.
<https://newpipe.net/>
<https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.schabi.newpipe/>

There is at least one Google app which requires a login for its main
functionality, _and_ which has no 1:1 replacement... which is Google Voice,
but some of what Google Voice does can be replaced with other VOIP apps.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.googlevoice>

But other than Google Voice, it's easy to find 1:1 replacements for any
Google app which requires a mothership account for its main functionality.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

On 6/21/2022 10:57 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 21/06/2022 17.29, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> I need to recover from Google's attack on privacy starting June 30th.
>>
>> For good reasons, I will never set up 2FA/2SV on any device:
>> Not on Windows.
>> Not on Android.
>> And certainly never on iOS (Apple will _never_ allow you to remove it!)
>>
>> For privacy reasons, I've never set up a mothership account on Windows.
>> Nor on Android.
>
> Microsoft is going to disable local accounts soon.
>
>>
>> And both Windows & Android work just fine without that mothership
>> account.
>> In some ways, even better.
>>
>> Specifically, I've had no mothership account set up on Windows or Android
>> and Windows Thunderbird works just fine with OAuth2 without that
>> mothership
>> account on Windows.
>>
>> Therefore... I had _assumed_ it would be the same on Android; but it's
>> not.
>> Why not?
>>
>> What's different?
>
> That Thunderbird is not created/owned by Google nor M$.
>
> You can use K9 in Android, which has no such restriction, except that it
> does not support oauth2 AFAIR. However, K9 and Thunderbird have entered
> an alliance and will be renamed as Thunderbird, I heard; thus it will
> probably get Oauth2 support.

App passwords work fine with K-9.

On 2022-06-22 13:19, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> For privacy reasons, I've never set up a mothership account on Windows.
>>> Nor on Android.
>>
>> Microsoft is going to disable local accounts soon.
>
> I'm aware of that mothership-login requirement for Windows 11, where I
> wonder aloud what their "stated" justification of requiring that mothership
> tracking account is.
>
> Just as with Apple, the stated reason isn't ever the real reason; but I

And just what is Apple's "real reason", Arlen?

On 2022-06-22 22:19, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> For privacy reasons, I've never set up a mothership account on Windows.
>>> Nor on Android.
>>
>> Microsoft is going to disable local accounts soon.
>
> I'm aware of that mothership-login requirement for Windows 11, where I
> wonder aloud what their "stated" justification of requiring that mothership
> tracking account is.
>
> Just as with Apple, the stated reason isn't ever the real reason; but I
> would be curious what Microsoft's _stated_ rationale is for _requiring_ a
> mothership tracking account just for us to use the operating system that we
> paid for that they own (we essentially rent a license to use it from them).

What would be their reasons is irrelevant. If you do not want to comply,
switch to Linux.

>
>>> What's different?
>>
>> That Thunderbird is not created/owned by Google nor M$.
>
> Actaully, I heard back from the developer, and that's only half the story.
> You are correct that Google gets to control what Android does, and Google
> would "prefer" that you create a mothership tracking account on Android,
> but at least Google doesn't "directly" require that mothership tracking
> account on Android.
>
> The FairMail developer, whom I trust and respect, told me he would have to
> pay yearly up to $75K for audits if he set up the OAuth2 authentication
> process like Thunderbird does.
>
> He referred me to this FAQ question which, less directly, says as much:
> <https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/FAQ.md#user-content-faq111>

Well, there are mail clients that do not pay a cent. Example: Alpine.
With some other nuisances.

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2022-06-22 22:48, Bob F wrote:
> On 6/21/2022 10:57 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 21/06/2022 17.29, Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>> I need to recover from Google's attack on privacy starting June 30th.
>>>
>>> For good reasons, I will never set up 2FA/2SV on any device:
>>> Not on Windows.
>>> Not on Android.
>>> And certainly never on iOS (Apple will _never_ allow you to remove it!)
>>>
>>> For privacy reasons, I've never set up a mothership account on Windows.
>>> Nor on Android.
>>
>> Microsoft is going to disable local accounts soon.
>>
>>>
>>> And both Windows & Android work just fine without that mothership
>>> account.
>>> In some ways, even better.
>>>
>>> Specifically, I've had no mothership account set up on Windows or
>>> Android
>>> and Windows Thunderbird works just fine with OAuth2 without that
>>> mothership
>>> account on Windows.
>>>
>>> Therefore... I had _assumed_ it would be the same on Android; but
>>> it's not.
>>> Why not?
>>>
>>> What's different?
>>
>> That Thunderbird is not created/owned by Google nor M$.
>>
>> You can use K9 in Android, which has no such restriction, except that
>> it does not support oauth2 AFAIR. However, K9 and Thunderbird have
>> entered an alliance and will be renamed as Thunderbird, I heard; thus
>> it will probably get Oauth2 support.
>
> App passwords work fine with K-9.

Certainly, but 2FA/2SV is a requirement for that, and some people
refuse, like Arlen.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> Just as with Apple, the stated reason isn't ever the real reason; but I
>> would be curious what Microsoft's _stated_ rationale is for _requiring_ a
>> mothership tracking account just for us to use the operating system that we
>> paid for that they own (we essentially rent a license to use it from them).
>
> What would be their reasons is irrelevant. If you do not want to comply,
> switch to Linux.

Again, as always, we're different.
I ask questions such as why is the sky blue and you don't, apparently.

I also want to know how gravity works instantly when it's not even a force,
so I'm currently questioning why the metric tensor is used twice in the
Einstein equations (once multiplied with the curvature scalar and once with
the cosmological constant), but this newsgroup isn't likely the place to
ask those kinds of questions.

This entire thread was always about _why_ things are the way they are.

You don't care why. I do.
We're different that way.

>> He referred me to this FAQ question which, less directly, says as much:
>> <https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/FAQ.md#user-content-faq111>
>
> Well, there are mail clients that do not pay a cent. Example: Alpine.
> With some other nuisances.

Since I try to research before asking questions, I looked up Alpine:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)>
<https://alpineapp.email/>
<https://alpineapp.email/alpine/release/src/alpine-2.26.zip>
Name: alpine-2.26.zip
Size: 5219721 bytes (5097 KiB)
SHA256: D754C781F84E4034DDBC6E33188DEEF5B3566BDCD296945CAD7EE955A070AE3B
Containing
Name: alpine.exe
Size: 8946688 bytes (8737 KiB)
SHA256: 614DA8943B5C4D4970CF364B4DF6A71B48BC547EC8D3D29EB75F1F5236A87F44
When installed, you see its "Pine" genesis, e.g., "pinerc" config file.

It looks like Alpine with Google mail must be configured manually.
<https://www.linuxshelltips.com/alpine-gmail-imap-in-linux/>
I wasn't able to complete the manual configuration to google though.

If someone has a google pinerc configuration file for Alpine, I'll modify
it to see how Alpine can get past Google's requirement for yearly audits
if Alpine is using OAuth via the web as you seem to be indicating it does.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> App passwords work fine with K-9.
>
> Certainly, but 2FA/2SV is a requirement for that

There is a separate thread asking for all the 2SF/2FA/MSV/MFA methods:
*Please help flesh out MUA:Google 2SV/2FA/MSV/MFA options*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/DGpa3lgnBf8>

For this thread, we've figured out _why_ OAuth2 with Thunderbird on Windows
doesn't create a mothership-tracking account but "some" MUAs on Android do.

The summary of what the answer to _why_ is that there are two methods of
OAuth2 authentication, one of which requires a yearly audit acceptable to
Google, the other of which does not.

Presumably Mozilla pays for that yearly audit.
That's why.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to disseminate useful information.

On 2022-06-22 15:45, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Just as with Apple, the stated reason isn't ever the real reason; but I
>>> would be curious what Microsoft's _stated_ rationale is for
>>> _requiring_ a
>>> mothership tracking account just for us to use the operating system
>>> that we
>>> paid for that they own (we essentially rent a license to use it from
>>> them).
>>
>> What would be their reasons is irrelevant. If you do not want to comply,
>> switch to Linux.
>
> Again, as always, we're different.
> I ask questions such as why is the sky blue and you don't, apparently.
>
> I also want to know how gravity works instantly when it's not even a force,
> so I'm currently questioning why the metric tensor is used twice in the
> Einstein equations (once multiplied with the curvature scalar and once with
> the cosmological constant), but this newsgroup isn't likely the place to
> ask those kinds of questions.
>
> This entire thread was always about _why_ things are the way they are.
>
> You don't care why. I do.
> We're different that way.

Except you lie tacitly, but suggesting that all of your "whys" proceed
from settled facts.

On 2022-06-23 00:45, Andy Burnelli wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Just as with Apple, the stated reason isn't ever the real reason; but I
>>> would be curious what Microsoft's _stated_ rationale is for
>>> _requiring_ a
>>> mothership tracking account just for us to use the operating system
>>> that we
>>> paid for that they own (we essentially rent a license to use it from
>>> them).
>>
>> What would be their reasons is irrelevant. If you do not want to comply,
>> switch to Linux.
>
> Again, as always, we're different.
> I ask questions such as why is the sky blue and you don't, apparently.
>
> I also want to know how gravity works instantly when it's not even a force,
> so I'm currently questioning why the metric tensor is used twice in the
> Einstein equations (once multiplied with the curvature scalar and once with
> the cosmological constant), but this newsgroup isn't likely the place to
> ask those kinds of questions.
>
> This entire thread was always about _why_ things are the way they are.
>
> You don't care why. I do.
> We're different that way.
>
>>> He referred me to this FAQ question which, less directly, says as much:
>>> <https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/FAQ.md#user-content-faq111>
>>>
>>
>> Well, there are mail clients that do not pay a cent. Example: Alpine.
>> With some other nuisances.
>
> Since I try to research before asking questions, I looked up Alpine:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_(email_client)>
> <https://alpineapp.email/>
> <https://alpineapp.email/alpine/release/src/alpine-2.26.zip>
> Name: alpine-2.26.zip
> Size: 5219721 bytes (5097 KiB)
> SHA256: D754C781F84E4034DDBC6E33188DEEF5B3566BDCD296945CAD7EE955A070AE3B
> Containing
> Name: alpine.exe
> Size: 8946688 bytes (8737 KiB)
> SHA256: 614DA8943B5C4D4970CF364B4DF6A71B48BC547EC8D3D29EB75F1F5236A87F44
> When installed, you see its "Pine" genesis, e.g., "pinerc" config file.
>
> It looks like Alpine with Google mail must be configured manually.
> <https://www.linuxshelltips.com/alpine-gmail-imap-in-linux/>
> I wasn't able to complete the manual configuration to google though.
>
> If someone has a google pinerc configuration file for Alpine, I'll modify
> it to see how Alpine can get past Google's requirement for yearly audits
> if Alpine is using OAuth via the web as you seem to be indicating it does.

Hint: look at the Alpine group in Usenet. It is work in progress. The
current developer explained the hurdles and what he is doing.

Note: I have no idea how current the Windows version is.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.