On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, D wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Helmut Richter wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> >
> > > D:
> > >
> > > > That leaves me the problem of how to adapt since I do not
> > > > own a smart phone and I am paying more for certain things
> > > > due to my not having one.
> > >
> > > Same thing with me in Russia: discrimination against people
> > > without smartphones, or not wishing to clutter their
> > > smartphones with the "apps" of every shop the visit.
> >
> > The German movement "Digitalcourage" has coined the term "Digitalzwang"
> > (compulsory digitalisation) for this feature. For instance, some public
> > funding programmes cannot be used unless you have access to a PC (a
> > smartphone is not sufficient) hooked up to the internet.
> >
> > Digitalcourage support responsible digitalisation by offering help in the
> > usage of secure authorisation and encryption but strictly disapproves of
> > any form of compulsory digitalisation. People who refuse using public data
> > networks, whatever their motives, must have equal rights as everybody
> > else.
> >
>
> Interesting! Do you have any links to german organizations working on
> this? I would be interested in reaching out and learning what they are
> doing and how they are working to see if I might not be able to do
> something similar in my home country.

Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
Digitalcourage (digitalcourage.de)

Both are decsribed in the German as well as in the English Wikipedia. CCC
focuses more on software techniques aka hacking (in the positive sense),
Digitalcourage on the impact on society and what non-hackers can or should
do, but their interest overlaps and the two work together.

--
Helmut Richter

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, D wrote:

> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups?

Well, as a long term user of usenet, I have the converse problem:
If I have any question (one that cannot be answered by looking up some
information but one that could require a direct answer) on any topic, how
do I find a good quality blog or whatever, if not in usenet?

I do not mean to say that all of usenet is high quality, but there is at
least a more or less unique point where to start looking for something.
The WWW is too world-wide, and Google's preferences need not be mine.

--
Helmut Richter

Helmut Richter wrote:

> Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)

It's the time of year they are releasing interesting videos from their
latest conference ... the polish trains one is good!

unfortunately many seem to not have English versions this time ...

In comp.infosystems.gopher D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups? I downloaded a
> list of all newsgroups, sorted them based on nr of messages and stumbled
> onto a _few_ that seemed to have good conversations, but many were
> garbage.
>
> Is there some smart way to find more groups with good, quality
> conversations?

I used Usenet back in the mid to late 90's so there were a few I already
knew of that I re-subscribed to. For new ones I generally list all and
then use the search to look for regional/international groups with topics
I'm interested in, then take a look, before subscribing, to see if they
are active and what kind of conversation is going on.

With the amount of spam on some of the groups I think looking at them by
the quantity of posts may throw you a curve ball...

The other thing is that some groups may appear dead but they're just
waiting for someone to restart the conversation. People will still be
subscribed to them in my experience...

--

IanJ

gopher://gopher.icu

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, cr0c0d1le wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> writes:
>> My last and final solution is to have my wife buy things for me. ;)
>>
> I use the Stallman solution: No cash, no sale!
>

That is an interesting solution. If I were to adopt that solution I would
have to relinquish my phone, electricity, internet. I could buy food, I
could pay my rent. No car or plane travel. Train would work.

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, Helmut Richter wrote:

>> Interesting! Do you have any links to german organizations working on
>> this? I would be interested in reaching out and learning what they are
>> doing and how they are working to see if I might not be able to do
>> something similar in my home country.
>
> Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
> Digitalcourage (digitalcourage.de)
>
> Both are decsribed in the German as well as in the English Wikipedia. CCC
> focuses more on software techniques aka hacking (in the positive sense),
> Digitalcourage on the impact on society and what non-hackers can or should
> do, but their interest overlaps and the two work together.
>

Great! Thank you very much for the pointer in the right direction. =)

Best regards,
Daniel

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, Helmut Richter wrote:

>> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups?
>
> Well, as a long term user of usenet, I have the converse problem:
> If I have any question (one that cannot be answered by looking up some
> information but one that could require a direct answer) on any topic, how
> do I find a good quality blog or whatever, if not in usenet?
>
> I do not mean to say that all of usenet is high quality, but there is at
> least a more or less unique point where to start looking for something.
> The WWW is too world-wide, and Google's preferences need not be mine.

Interesting perspective! Coming from the web, what I do is ask someone I
know (but that only pushes the same problem onto another person) use
ddg.gg, hackernews, stackoverflow or the main web site of the open
source project or technology I'm researching.

Best regards,
Daniel

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024, IanJ wrote:

> With the amount of spam on some of the groups I think looking at them by
> the quantity of posts may throw you a curve ball...

Thank you IanJ, that's a good point.

> The other thing is that some groups may appear dead but they're just
> waiting for someone to restart the conversation. People will still be
> subscribed to them in my experience...

Never tried that, but sounds like a good trick as well!

Best regards,
Daniel

In article <d48066ec-5e78-08b2-8842-cc024b70086a@example.net>,
nospam@example.net says...
>
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023, IanJ wrote:
>
> > For me, I've chosen to invest my energy into irc, gopher and usenet,
> > where communities can exist and content is created because people want
>
> A question... how do you find good quality newsgroups? I downloaded a
> list of all newsgroups, sorted them based on nr of messages and stumbled
> onto a _few_ that seemed to have good conversations, but many were
> garbage.
>
> Is there some smart way to find more groups with good, quality
> conversations?
>
> Best regards,
> Daniel

There's a recent thread titled "Which groups are active?" over on
alt.usenet.newbies that might have some good leads.

Hopefully one upside of Google leaving Usenet will be that there'll be
less spam, and the number of messages in a group will become a better
reflection of how active the group really is.

Rayner

> There's a recent thread titled "Which groups are active?" over on
> alt.usenet.newbies that might have some good leads.
>
> Hopefully one upside of Google leaving Usenet will be that there'll be
> less spam, and the number of messages in a group will become a better
> reflection of how active the group really is.

Great suggestion, thank you very much Rayner!

Best regards,
Daniel

[ groups snipped to comp.misc ]

D <nospam@example.net> writes:

> I always wondered if there was room for starting a business that
> would aggregate all programs on behalf of other people and thus
> "garble" the information. Think of it as an e-commerce proxy where
> people pay you cash or through bank transfer and you (and your
> staff) buy things online on their behalf. The profile then built up
> is based on 10, 20...x persons so won't really be useful. I assume
> that it is illegal but would be a nice privacy preserving
> service. =)

If there were a local person to whom I could hand cash in person, who
would do that on demand for a small percentage fee, I'd do that.

I have had a friend -- an on-line friend I've never met in person --
get some things for me on-line. Haven't heard if he's been inundated
with ads for raw carnauba wax, electric blankets or Ford fuel gauge
senders or not. :-) But I don't want to burden him with trivial
purchases (as opposed to things I need for some urgent purpose and
can't find locally.)

I don't see anything illegal about it. Some vendors might make an
issue of the mailing address to which an item is drop-shipped when (as
it would be) it's different from that of the on-line person doing the
ordering. That potential flaw hasn't turned up as a problem in the
few times we've done it.

>> And what nasty a word choice! Loyalty is unselfish
>> faithfulness and commitment at the sacrifice of one's own
>> interests and well-being. Getting a discount is the
>> opposite.

Yeah. We just treat the whole loyalty card things a an unavoidable
bother like parking meters.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On 1/3/24 17:56, Andy Burns wrote:
> Helmut Richter wrote:
>
>> Chaos Computer Club (ccc.de)
>
> It's the time of year they are releasing interesting videos from their
> latest conference ... the polish trains one is good!
>
> unfortunately many seem to not have English versions this time ...
>

As far as I know they have never published translations, even when they
have amateur live translations during the event.

If you're watching on YouTube, the auto-generated and auto-translated
subtitles are mostly okay.

On Sat, 6 Jan 2024, Mike Spencer wrote:

>> I always wondered if there was room for starting a business that
>> would aggregate all programs on behalf of other people and thus
>> "garble" the information. Think of it as an e-commerce proxy where
>> people pay you cash or through bank transfer and you (and your
>> staff) buy things online on their behalf. The profile then built up
>> is based on 10, 20...x persons so won't really be useful. I assume
>> that it is illegal but would be a nice privacy preserving
>> service. =)
>
> If there were a local person to whom I could hand cash in person, who
> would do that on demand for a small percentage fee, I'd do that.

Hello Mike,

It does sound like a nice idea, doesn't it! =) The problem is to scale
up and...

> I don't see anything illegal about it. Some vendors might make an

once you scale up the credit card companies will probably stop you or
money laundering rules or know your customers rules etc.

But perhaps at some time in the future, I might try just to see how far
it would scale before hitting the credit cards companies or the
government regulations.

Best regards,
Daniel

On 1/7/24 01:08, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 6 Jan 2024, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>>> I always wondered if there was room for starting a business that
>>> would aggregate all programs on behalf of other people and thus
>>> "garble" the information. Think of it as an e-commerce proxy where
>>> people pay you cash or through bank transfer and you (and your
>>> staff) buy things online on their behalf. The profile then built up
>>> is based on 10, 20...x persons so won't really be useful. I assume
>>> that it is illegal but would be a nice privacy preserving
>>> service. =)
>>
>> If there were a local person to whom I could hand cash in person, who
>> would do that on demand for a small percentage fee, I'd do that.
>
> Hello Mike,
>
> It does sound like a nice idea, doesn't it! =) The problem is to scale
> up and...
>
>> I don't see anything illegal about it.  Some vendors might make an
>
> once you scale up the credit card companies will probably stop you or
> money laundering rules or know your customers rules etc.
>
> But perhaps at some time in the future, I might try just to see how far
> it would scale before hitting the credit cards companies or the
> government regulations.
>
> Best regards, Daniel
>

You make a good point - this is precisely what happens. Someone uses
your service to buy drugs, and the government comes down like a stack of
bricks, and gives you 3 life sentences for illegal operation of a money
transmitting service.

On 1/7/24 02:28, immibis wrote:
> On 1/7/24 01:08, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 6 Jan 2024, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>>> I always wondered if there was room for starting a business that
>>>> would aggregate all programs on behalf of other people and thus
>>>> "garble" the information. Think of it as an e-commerce proxy where
>>>> people pay you cash or through bank transfer and you (and your
>>>> staff) buy things online on their behalf. The profile then built up
>>>> is based on 10, 20...x persons so won't really be useful. I assume
>>>> that it is illegal but would be a nice privacy preserving
>>>> service. =)
>>>
>>> If there were a local person to whom I could hand cash in person, who
>>> would do that on demand for a small percentage fee, I'd do that.
>>
>> Hello Mike,
>>
>> It does sound like a nice idea, doesn't it! =) The problem is to scale
>> up and...
>>
>>> I don't see anything illegal about it.  Some vendors might make an
>>
>> once you scale up the credit card companies will probably stop you or
>> money laundering rules or know your customers rules etc.
>>
>> But perhaps at some time in the future, I might try just to see how far
>> it would scale before hitting the credit cards companies or the
>> government regulations.
>>
>> Best regards, Daniel
>>
>
> You make a good point - this is precisely what happens. Someone uses
> your service to buy drugs, and the government comes down like a stack of
> bricks, and gives you 3 life sentences for illegal operation of a money
> transmitting service.

Addendum: services like this do exist in places with less insane
governments.

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024, immibis wrote:

>> once you scale up the credit card companies will probably stop you or
>> money laundering rules or know your customers rules etc.
>>
>> But perhaps at some time in the future, I might try just to see how far
>> it would scale before hitting the credit cards companies or the
>> government regulations.
>>
>> Best regards, Daniel
>>
>
> You make a good point - this is precisely what happens. Someone uses your
> service to buy drugs, and the government comes down like a stack of bricks,
> and gives you 3 life sentences for illegal operation of a money transmitting
> service.

Well, buying drugs is easy to protect against in the way I imagine such
a service, but even buying regular things could still trigger ALM/KYC
laws.

I'm running my own business and I know first hand how revolting it is to
have anything at all to do with banks and the government.

I think, for this service to be even remotely feasible, it would have to
hide in plain sight. You would have to have x "purchasers" with personal
credit cards, and spread the customers out among them to ensure that
neither purchasers consumes too much in any given month.

Best regards,
Daniel

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024, immibis wrote:

>> You make a good point - this is precisely what happens. Someone uses your
>> service to buy drugs, and the government comes down like a stack of bricks,
>> and gives you 3 life sentences for illegal operation of a money
>> transmitting service.
>
> Addendum: services like this do exist in places with less insane governments.
>

Really?! Please give me a pointer in the right direction, because I'd
like to become a customer! =)

On 1/8/24 11:11, D wrote:
> I'm running my own business and I know first hand how revolting it is to
> have anything at all to do with banks and the government.
>
> I think, for this service to be even remotely feasible, it would have to
> hide in plain sight. You would have to have x "purchasers" with personal
> credit cards, and spread the customers out among them to ensure that
> neither purchasers consumes too much in any given month.

You would then go to prison for money laundering.

On 1/8/24 11:12, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024, immibis wrote:
>
>>> You make a good point - this is precisely what happens. Someone uses
>>> your service to buy drugs, and the government comes down like a stack
>>> of bricks, and gives you 3 life sentences for illegal operation of a
>>> money transmitting service.
>>
>> Addendum: services like this do exist in places with less insane
>> governments.
>>
>
> Really?! Please give me a pointer in the right direction, because I'd
> like to become a customer! =)

ISTR in some African villages, there would be one person who held the
money for the whole village and kept track of each person's individual
account.

Somewhat related: Hawala

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, immibis wrote:

> On 1/8/24 11:11, D wrote:
>> I'm running my own business and I know first hand how revolting it is to
>> have anything at all to do with banks and the government.
>>
>> I think, for this service to be even remotely feasible, it would have to
>> hide in plain sight. You would have to have x "purchasers" with personal
>> credit cards, and spread the customers out among them to ensure that
>> neither purchasers consumes too much in any given month.
>
> You would then go to prison for money laundering.
>
>

Incorrect. It would depend on the countries involved and the mount of
money involved all of which is under my control.

But, you do have one point which I concede and that is that we, as
citizens, daily are committing crimes due to the extremely convoluted and
numerous laws in existence.

So yes, just by living in todays society you are very likely to have
committed some kind of crime somewhere at some time.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, immibis wrote:

>> Really?! Please give me a pointer in the right direction, because I'd
>> like to become a customer! =)
>
> ISTR in some African villages, there would be one person who held the money
> for the whole village and kept track of each person's individual account.
>
> Somewhat related: Hawala

Good point about Hawala. But sadly where I am from, the hawalaboys are
now being forced to submit to the finance authority so I think that way
is slowly being closed.

On 1/9/24 12:22, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, immibis wrote:
>
>> On 1/8/24 11:11, D wrote:
>>> I'm running my own business and I know first hand how revolting it is to
>>> have anything at all to do with banks and the government.
>>>
>>> I think, for this service to be even remotely feasible, it would have to
>>> hide in plain sight. You would have to have x "purchasers" with personal
>>> credit cards, and spread the customers out among them to ensure that
>>> neither purchasers consumes too much in any given month.
>>
>> You would then go to prison for money laundering.
>>
>>
>
> Incorrect. It would depend on the countries involved and the mount of
> money involved all of which is under my control.
>
> But, you do have one point which I concede and that is that we, as
> citizens, daily are committing crimes due to the extremely convoluted
> and numerous laws in existence.
>
> So yes, just by living in todays society you are very likely to have
> committed some kind of crime somewhere at some time.

The point is not that you can accidentally commit crimes. The point is
that all things which fall outside of government control are crimes.

On 2024-01-10, immibis <news@immibis.com> wrote:
> On 1/9/24 12:22, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, immibis wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/8/24 11:11, D wrote:
>>>> I'm running my own business and I know first hand how revolting it is to
>>>> have anything at all to do with banks and the government.
>>>>
>>>> I think, for this service to be even remotely feasible, it would have to
>>>> hide in plain sight. You would have to have x "purchasers" with personal
>>>> credit cards, and spread the customers out among them to ensure that
>>>> neither purchasers consumes too much in any given month.
>>>
>>> You would then go to prison for money laundering.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Incorrect. It would depend on the countries involved and the mount of
>> money involved all of which is under my control.
>>
>> But, you do have one point which I concede and that is that we, as
>> citizens, daily are committing crimes due to the extremely convoluted
>> and numerous laws in existence.
>>
>> So yes, just by living in todays society you are very likely to have
>> committed some kind of crime somewhere at some time.
>
> The point is not that you can accidentally commit crimes. The point is
> that all things which fall outside of government control are crimes.

That is blatantly not true.