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computers / news.admin.hierarchies / Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?

SubjectAuthor
* Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Tristan Miller
|+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
||+- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Tristan Miller
||+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|||`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Richard Kettlewell
||| +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| |`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Richard Kettlewell
||| | `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| |  `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Aioe
||| |   +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| |   `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||| `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|||  `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|||   `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
|||    `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Richard Kettlewell
|||+* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||||`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
|||| +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
|||| |`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|||| `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||||  `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|||`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
||`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?D. Stussy
|| `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matija Nalis
|`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
| `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|  +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Adam H. Kerman
|  +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Thomas Hochstein
|  `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|   +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Jason Evans
|   +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
|   |`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|   `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|    +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|    |`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Matthew Vernon
|    | `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|    `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
|     +* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|     |`* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Franck
|     | +- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|     | `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|     |  `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Franck
|     `* Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Julien_ÉLIE
|      `- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?Russ Allbery
`- Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?D. Stussy

Pages:12
Subject: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 12:04 UTC
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder7.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a7750004b3d09d76f7c4c0.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:04:47 +0200
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Content-Language: fr
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Hi all,

Is there a current strategy to deal with weak PGP keys that are currently used to sign control articles and no longer accepted by recent GnuPG versions?

Shouldn't news administrators still sending control articles with such weak PGP keys generate a new key as soon as possible and begin to send control articles in double during a few years?  (one control article signed with the old key for legacy systems, and one with the new secure key)


Most hierarchies are concerned, according to an article from news.software.nntp in 2015 (<n62tgi$4co$1@csiph.com> from Kevin Bowling).  Only 15 successfully imported keys out of 104 with GnuPG 2.1 !
One has to switch to old GnuPG 1.x versions, which one day won't be supported any longer...

kev-ws-aurora% gpg --import --homedir=. PGPKEYS
gpg: WARNING: unsafe permissions on homedir '.'
gpg: Warning: using insecure memory!
gpg: keybox './pubring.kbx' created
gpg: ./trustdb.gpg: trustdb created
gpg: key 2322A7F8: public key "usenet@aioe.org (Aioe.org Steering Group)
<usenet@aioe.org>" imported
gpg: key 7DC1A266: public key "bofh-control@lists.killfile.org" imported
gpg: key 91EDC5F2: public key "news@dictatorshandbook.net" imported
gpg: key C86CC6E1: public key "News Subsystem <news@ns.grisbi.org>" imported
gpg: key F1420E8E: public key "news@zhaum.xs4all.nl" imported
gpg: key ED63AD9A: public key "newsmaster@carnet.hr" imported
gpg: key 624FADC4: public key "control@usenet.ie" imported
gpg: key DC7DB7A7: public key "mensa.config" imported
gpg: key E60E2FAA: public key "control-microsoft@trigofacile.com" imported
gpg: key 9574C26C: public key "pbinfo-news-admin
<news@uni-paderborn.de>" imported
gpg: key 8B2ACFBB: public key "newsadmin@perl.org" imported
gpg: key 161BD1B7: public key "news@postgresql.org" imported
gpg: key 6933A636: public key "sfnet@cs.tut.fi" imported
gpg: key 85854234: public key "Hirtenrat (Maintainer szaf.*)
<hirtenrat@szaf.org>" imported
gpg: key B73CAF1B: public key "us-control@lists.killfile.org" imported
gpg: Total number processed: 104
gpg:     skipped PGP-2 keys: 89
gpg:               imported: 15


--
Julien ÉLIE

« Petite annonce : Sourd rencontrerait sourde pour terrain
   d'entente. »


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Tristan Miller
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 12:15 UTC
References: 1
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tmil...@big-8.org (Tristan Miller)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:15:26 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 32
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Dear Julien,

On 05/04/2020 14.04, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
Is there a current strategy to deal with weak PGP keys that are
currently used to sign control articles and no longer accepted by recent
GnuPG versions?

Shouldn't news administrators still sending control articles with such
weak PGP keys generate a new key as soon as possible and begin to send
control articles in double during a few years?  (one control article
signed with the old key for legacy systems, and one with the new secure
key)


Most hierarchies are concerned, according to an article from
news.software.nntp in 2015 (<n62tgi$4co$1@csiph.com> from Kevin
Bowling).  Only 15 successfully imported keys out of 104 with GnuPG 2.1 !
One has to switch to old GnuPG 1.x versions, which one day won't be
supported any longer...

Thanks for bringing this up.  The issue is something that the recently
reconstituted Big-8 Management Board has been discussing, at least
insofar as it relates to the control messages that the Board itself
needs to sign.  But you're right that this is a more general problem.
We're working on a solution.

Regards,
Tristan

--
Usenet Big-8 Management Board
board@big-8.org


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Matthew Vernon
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A header line that ends up very out of date
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 13:21 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!nntp.terraraq.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: cont...@usenet.org.uk (Matthew Vernon)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:21:04 +0100
Organization: A header line that ends up very out of date
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
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Tristan Miller <tmiller@big-8.org> writes:

Dear Julien,

On 05/04/2020 14.04, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
Is there a current strategy to deal with weak PGP keys that are
currently used to sign control articles and no longer accepted by recent
GnuPG versions?

Shouldn't news administrators still sending control articles with such
weak PGP keys generate a new key as soon as possible and begin to send
control articles in double during a few years?  (one control article
signed with the old key for legacy systems, and one with the new secure
key)


Most hierarchies are concerned, according to an article from
news.software.nntp in 2015 (<n62tgi$4co$1@csiph.com> from Kevin
Bowling).  Only 15 successfully imported keys out of 104 with GnuPG 2.1 !
One has to switch to old GnuPG 1.x versions, which one day won't be
supported any longer...

Thanks for bringing this up.  The issue is something that the recently
reconstituted Big-8 Management Board has been discussing, at least
insofar as it relates to the control messages that the Board itself
needs to sign.  But you're right that this is a more general problem.
We're working on a solution.

My uk.* Control hat is worried about this too - I could make a new key
and (probably!) adjust the perl lashup that runs uk.* to sign with both
keys, but the real problem is getting "enough" admins to start trusting
the new key (and not the old one any more).

My feeling is that a co-ordinated effort to get "active" heirarchies to
produce new keys and have them rolled out in an easy-to-consume way for
news admins so admins don't have to do more than one or two simple
actions is probably the only chance we have of getting a critical mass
of servers using the new keys. B-8MB are perhaps the right people to do
that co-ordination?

Matthew

--
 `O'-----0     `O'---.       `O'---.       `O'---.
   \___| |       \___|0-/      \___|/        \___|
    |  | /\       |  |  \       |  |\         |  |
The Dangers of modern veterinary life


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Tristan Miller
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 14:45 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tmil...@big-8.org (Tristan Miller)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 16:45:33 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <ra3fqd$n2r$1@dont-email.me>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk>
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Dear Matthew,

On 20/05/2020 15.21, Matthew Vernon wrote:
Tristan Miller <tmiller@big-8.org> writes:
On 05/04/2020 14.04, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
Is there a current strategy to deal with weak PGP keys that are
currently used to sign control articles and no longer accepted by recent
GnuPG versions?

Shouldn't news administrators still sending control articles with such
weak PGP keys generate a new key as soon as possible and begin to send
control articles in double during a few years?  (one control article
signed with the old key for legacy systems, and one with the new secure
key)

Thanks for bringing this up.  The issue is something that the recently
reconstituted Big-8 Management Board has been discussing, at least
insofar as it relates to the control messages that the Board itself
needs to sign.  But you're right that this is a more general problem.
We're working on a solution.

My uk.* Control hat is worried about this too - I could make a new key
and (probably!) adjust the perl lashup that runs uk.* to sign with both
keys, but the real problem is getting "enough" admins to start trusting
the new key (and not the old one any more).

My feeling is that a co-ordinated effort to get "active" heirarchies to
produce new keys and have them rolled out in an easy-to-consume way for
news admins so admins don't have to do more than one or two simple
actions is probably the only chance we have of getting a critical mass
of servers using the new keys. B-8MB are perhaps the right people to do
that co-ordination?


We'e only recently reconstituted the Board after a long period of
dormancy and are currently busy trying to get all the technical and
administrative infrastructure back up and running.  But part of this
process has involved (and will continue to involve) getting in touch
with news admins to verify that they're following the correct
instructions for fetching group lists, verifying control messages, etc.
We can't promise that we'll be able to do this on behalf of other
hierarchies, but at the very least we can report on our experiences for
the hierarchies that we manage.

Regards,
Tristan

--
Usenet Big-8 Management Board
board@big-8.org


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 18:31 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!nntp.terraraq.uk!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!usenet-its.stanford.edu!usenet.stanford.edu!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 11:31:26 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <87lflm5ugx.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
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Matthew Vernon <control@usenet.org.uk> writes:

My feeling is that a co-ordinated effort to get "active" heirarchies to
produce new keys and have them rolled out in an easy-to-consume way for
news admins so admins don't have to do more than one or two simple
actions is probably the only chance we have of getting a critical mass
of servers using the new keys. B-8MB are perhaps the right people to do
that co-ordination?

It would also be nice if someone with time could do a bit of a survey of
supported software and key strengths and whatnot and recommend what to
use.  My guess is that everyone could just use 2048-bit RSA keys generated
with GnuPG v2 (to pick up the current ancillary settings) and it would
probably be fine, but is there anything in there that's going to break on
some old system that only has GnuPG v1?  (Do we even care?)

Is anyone worried that 2048-bit RSA is not strong enough given how much of
a pain it is to replace keys and thus how long of an expected lifetime we
would like them to have?  They're probably not quantum-safe (not that I
really expect anyone to waste quantum computing cycles on breaking Usenet
control messages).  (Is there even a quantum-resistant public key
algorithm?  ed25519 isn't quantum-resistant either, I believe.)

It would probably also be a good idea to provide a simpler mechanism to
quickly construct a keyring of known hierarchies.  I have all the
machinery available to build such a thing, but the instructions for a news
admin are a bit awkward.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Adam H. Kerman
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:09 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:09:00 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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Tristan Miller <tmiller@big-8.org> wrote:

Thanks for bringing this up.  The issue is something that the recently
reconstituted Big-8 Management Board has been discussing, at least
insofar as it relates to the control messages that the Board itself
needs to sign.  But you're right that this is a more general problem.
We're working on a solution.

Skirv won't be issuing control messages any longer? All that's issued is
a cron job doing the checkgroups. I sure don't see why Skirv can't
continue to maintain that. You really don't want to be in a position in
which you must convince all the world's News administrators to implement
new keys. Unless I'm missing something and Skirv isn't using stronger
encryption.

Also, you're hierarchy administrators. It's long past time to retire the
pompous title that at no point described the genuine duties. Hierarchy
administration isn't any kind of management function, certainly not on
Usenet with its distributed server model and lack of central management
authority.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:46 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!usenet.stanford.edu!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 13:46:33 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
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<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
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"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
Tristan Miller <tmiller@big-8.org> wrote:

Thanks for bringing this up.  The issue is something that the recently
reconstituted Big-8 Management Board has been discussing, at least
insofar as it relates to the control messages that the Board itself
needs to sign.  But you're right that this is a more general problem.
We're working on a solution.

Skirv won't be issuing control messages any longer?

Tim Skirvin has never issued control messages for the Big Eight.  I have
been issuing all of the control messages since I took over from tale, and
continue to do so.

The current control messages are still being issued with the same key that
David Lawrence created in 1996.  At this point, that key is old enough
that modern versions of GnuPG cannot use it.  I've been meaning to deal
with this for a long time but have had very little time (and still have
very little time) to make many changes to the software and process.

The most likely approach will be to generate a new key and issue control
messages with both the old and new keys for some (extended) transition
period.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Adam H. Kerman
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:54 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:54:30 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <ra45e6$f1b$1@dont-email.me>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com> <f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org> <ra42os$jmp$2@dont-email.me> <877dx65o7q.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
Injection-Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 20:54:30 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="3b2972156c0853f2d03301c2387b6be0";
logging-data="15403"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18F3P5s1KTnhnTb0FGu3Fz1T9LpJb7nUAw="
Cancel-Lock: sha1:cEr4yoPu7kjufK5TZIM98LNjCEs=
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
View all headers
Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> writes:
Tristan Miller <tmiller@big-8.org> wrote:

Thanks for bringing this up.  The issue is something that the recently
reconstituted Big-8 Management Board has been discussing, at least
insofar as it relates to the control messages that the Board itself
needs to sign.  But you're right that this is a more general problem.
We're working on a solution.

Skirv won't be issuing control messages any longer?

Tim Skirvin has never issued control messages for the Big Eight.  I have
been issuing all of the control messages since I took over from tale, and
continue to do so. . . .

My apologies


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Richard Kettlewell
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:16 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!nntp.terraraq.uk!.POSTED.nntp.terraraq.uk!not-for-mail
From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 09:16:19 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
Message-ID: <875zcp66uk.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87lflm5ugx.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: mantic.terraraq.uk; posting-host="nntp.terraraq.uk:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:3f:0:2";
logging-data="10035"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@mantic.terraraq.uk"
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux)
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X-Face: h[Hh-7npe<<b4/eW[]sat,I3O`t8A`(ej.H!F4\8|;ih)`7{@:A~/j1}gTt4e7-n*F?.Rl^
F<\{jehn7.KrO{!7=:(@J~]<.[{>v9!1<qZY,{EJxg6?Er4Y7Ng2\Ft>Z&W?r\c.!4DXH5PWpga"ha
+r0NzP?vnz:e/knOY)PI-
X-Boydie: NO
View all headers
Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> writes:
Matthew Vernon <control@usenet.org.uk> writes:
My feeling is that a co-ordinated effort to get "active" heirarchies
to produce new keys and have them rolled out in an easy-to-consume
way for news admins so admins don't have to do more than one or two
simple actions is probably the only chance we have of getting a
critical mass of servers using the new keys. B-8MB are perhaps the
right people to do that co-ordination?

It would also be nice if someone with time could do a bit of a survey of
supported software and key strengths and whatnot and recommend what to
use.  My guess is that everyone could just use 2048-bit RSA keys generated
with GnuPG v2 (to pick up the current ancillary settings) and it would
probably be fine, but is there anything in there that's going to break on
some old system that only has GnuPG v1?  (Do we even care?)

We normally target a minimum of 128-bit security which in RSA terms is a
3072-bit key. It’s probably overkill for Usenet.

Is anyone worried that 2048-bit RSA is not strong enough given how much of
a pain it is to replace keys and thus how long of an expected lifetime we
would like them to have?  They're probably not quantum-safe (not that I
really expect anyone to waste quantum computing cycles on breaking Usenet
control messages).

AFAICS signed control messages include the date header. Provided news
servers reject date headers that are distant in time, and provided
header parsing is unambiguous, you only need to upgrade to quantum-safe
signatures when you think a quantum computer actually exists, since
stale control messages will be rejected anyway.

(Is there even a quantum-resistant public key algorithm?  ed25519
isn't quantum-resistant either, I believe.)

It isn’t.

There are many candidates. Personally I would wait until the NIST PQC
standardization effort completes before making a final selection (unless
my hand was forced) but as the field narrows it would be worth keeping
an eye on what the compromises will be, e.g. due to larger signature
sizes than we’re used to.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Richard Kettlewell
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 08:20 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.etla.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!nntp.terraraq.uk!.POSTED.nntp.terraraq.uk!not-for-mail
From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 09:20:12 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
Message-ID: <87y2pl4s3n.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: mantic.terraraq.uk; posting-host="nntp.terraraq.uk:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:3f:0:2";
logging-data="10035"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@mantic.terraraq.uk"
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux)
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X-Face: h[Hh-7npe<<b4/eW[]sat,I3O`t8A`(ej.H!F4\8|;ih)`7{@:A~/j1}gTt4e7-n*F?.Rl^
F<\{jehn7.KrO{!7=:(@J~]<.[{>v9!1<qZY,{EJxg6?Er4Y7Ng2\Ft>Z&W?r\c.!4DXH5PWpga"ha
+r0NzP?vnz:e/knOY)PI-
X-Boydie: NO
View all headers
Matthew Vernon <control@usenet.org.uk> writes:
My uk.* Control hat is worried about this too - I could make a new key
and (probably!) adjust the perl lashup that runs uk.* to sign with both
keys, but the real problem is getting "enough" admins to start trusting
the new key (and not the old one any more).

I’d suggest getting started quickly on dual-running for a single
hierarchy, to discover if there are any problems with it, what the
upgrade process looks like (given the end goal of trusting only the new
key), etc.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:46 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder7.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a77500ac34b989fcd4440c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 12:46:06 +0200
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <ra5m5j$qtm$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87lflm5ugx.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
<875zcp66uk.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:46:11 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: news.trigofacile.com; posting-account="julien"; posting-host="2a01cb0800a77500ac34b989fcd4440c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr:2a01:cb08:a7:7500:ac34:b989:fcd4:440c";
logging-data="27574"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0
In-Reply-To: <875zcp66uk.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
Content-Language: fr
View all headers
Hi Richard,

Is anyone worried that 2048-bit RSA is not strong enough given how much of
a pain it is to replace keys and thus how long of an expected lifetime we
would like them to have?  They're probably not quantum-safe (not that I
really expect anyone to waste quantum computing cycles on breaking Usenet
control messages).

AFAICS signed control messages include the date header. Provided news
servers reject date headers that are distant in time, and provided
header parsing is unambiguous, you only need to upgrade to quantum-safe
signatures when you think a quantum computer actually exists, since
stale control messages will be rejected anyway.

That's indeed a good point.  Date and Injection-Date header fields are expected to be signed.


Incidentally, though it would be a huger gap, there's also the NAS protocol (RFC 4707) that could be used to provide information and updates to the list of newsgroups.
It also gives PGP public keys, so updates are easily done through this way.
The only PGP keys to maintain are the one of the NAS servers you trust to give you information.


An experimental version is here:

% telnet nas.trigofacile.com 991
HELP
HIER uk
LSTR uk



DATA uk.net.news.announce
612 Information follows for newsgroups
Name: uk.net.news.announce
Status: Moderated
Description: For RFDs, CFVs, FAQs, etc. within the UK Hierarchy. (Moderated)
Mod-Sub-Adr: uk-net-news-announce@moderators.isc.org

..


HIER uk
611 Information follows for hierarchies
Name: uk
Status: Complete
Description: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Ctl-Send-Adr: control@usenet.org.uk
Ctl-Newsgroup: uk.net.news.announce
Language: en
Name-Length: 40
Comp-Length: 19
Source: http://www.usenet.org.uk/
Ctl-PGP-Key:
U uk.net.news.announce
L http://www.usenet.org.uk/newsadmins.html
V PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
K------BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
K-Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
K-
K-mQCNAjGL0cgAAAEEAJ6p7fQHn139U9zQawLixrExOUrkFhi1yLb8m8fLxmKTprKn
K-ZNM1nnxMSbRyO8vXohXKKs4G1U2jTpaCkSRrbCiJ5VxWB/B31E/p/vrBXqqQ2amq
K-3gb4Df9DZub0ZtOhHTF/pPjQmXvAv08umjZWpYlXRmUHBlBhMmOfGXkh8vHZAAUR
K-tBR1ay5uZXQubmV3cy5hbm5vdW5jZYkAlQMFEDhCcUxjnxl5IfLx2QEB6e8EAJDt
K-gIkNXdLiyL07lgDBr+Wq/Zckgm70JhNaHWxLPqckMLOJZGPFKlOlKA6W62UrwDWI
K-yktEosLHd8whbPCaMOSbIOX7mmTrIySOKf+rBxhFLlRY+fAQ4h2oEyEWYhJ80wiN
K-GgKgMJC+UqQD/ylMB1VcCsTYuZWEQ18ldKgtTsOZtBc8Y29udHJvbEB1c2VuZXQu
K-b3JnLnVrPokAlQIFEDGL1R1jnxl5IfLx2QEBF/gD/ikHjpmJuG10X3PXA/yciZ0r
K-qqVo01/4q5yy8vHBGGfopfxpqrjGnNtUV4kWluNo0/1uYZm1o7TeqHI6Siv/yWQp
K-+QldN4nED3RPauqCtj5cubmMgryXg2pcCBiY+brHWEr0tBV7cSSOHFipwM55FA22
K-ctQzQ5nIPZQ+KPC3WjdZiQB8AwUQMvCcUq1e6k0sFfGpAQE6nwMzBdaFclXiv48C
K-aMXBUG8S3bLUtx3u2OBajzpe8G2nJlCKYkCY482p2MjtfCDi7+eYDfqgKMDoGrUM
K-zSfMraDRyoXjNC/nIKf1+R2EFMyaLoC9FWggCKTov/I/2BE2+grvQ7ewQSWEUokA
K-lQIFEDGL1FGemw5PLx059QEBje0EAKx99yOZ0zQ9FjibuEBStP8t0BCsRNqkrVjx
K-O513RBXecgcdXdv9hWn+8LNRZx6JLHv/ZpWsdGXqP3oiqj+LRt7WpHnZ55He/njx
K-5DAoPAM/TjgTk7arazSjsJuFhcTP7gHitLDoHxVkUfdLX8h4HH9LWhEnrWEx82EY
K-/29z/xQ6iQCVAgUQMYvTeKSiIc7jUXyJAQHLNwP/Qz+g2RRsuSZrJ9L0HAVPLcml
K-oAEGOMFfYJDM/mvxegAYzL8i0HGFbwTH/+E94WSmsWAx1KZ/Z2DYKdI7BUaS8c09
K-a2OtqOEbCd7QBI37seyxG0rTWNpuE0ZXBo0eiQBg37oIW+Faf/tqJQZnALVsV5LD
K-Kcf+6+MhgS47HWJ6ZjQ=
K-=iInx
K -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

..


--
Julien ÉLIE

« Quand je raconterai mon odyssée, personne ne me croira ! »
   (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Richard Kettlewell
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 13:37 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.etla.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!nntp.terraraq.uk!.POSTED.nntp.terraraq.uk!not-for-mail
From: inva...@invalid.invalid (Richard Kettlewell)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 14:37:33 +0100
Organization: terraraq NNTP server
Message-ID: <87sgft4deq.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87lflm5ugx.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
<875zcp66uk.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
<ra5m5j$qtm$1@news.trigofacile.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Info: mantic.terraraq.uk; posting-host="nntp.terraraq.uk:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:3f:0:2";
logging-data="14736"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@mantic.terraraq.uk"
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:ye6Nf28M5FHpyCaxXZjZgyUA5dU=
X-Face: h[Hh-7npe<<b4/eW[]sat,I3O`t8A`(ej.H!F4\8|;ih)`7{@:A~/j1}gTt4e7-n*F?.Rl^
F<\{jehn7.KrO{!7=:(@J~]<.[{>v9!1<qZY,{EJxg6?Er4Y7Ng2\Ft>Z&W?r\c.!4DXH5PWpga"ha
+r0NzP?vnz:e/knOY)PI-
X-Boydie: NO
View all headers
Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:
Incidentally, though it would be a huger gap, there's also the NAS
protocol (RFC 4707) that could be used to provide information and
updates to the list of newsgroups.
It also gives PGP public keys, so updates are easily done through this way.
The only PGP keys to maintain are the one of the NAS servers you trust
to give you information.

Does it offer more than adding a signature PGPKEYS.asc alongside (say)
ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/PGPKEYS and verifying that as part of
buildinnkeyring? I’m not convinced that introducing an entire new
protocol into the mix is a good approach if much simpler alternatives
are available; one of the things that’s become very clear as I bring my
collection of peers back up to a sensible number is that server
operators have very little spare time for Usenet today.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 17:29 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!usenet.stanford.edu!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 10:29:37 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <87r1vdb3i6.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87lflm5ugx.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
<875zcp66uk.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hope.eyrie.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Trace: usenet.stanford.edu 1590082180 27723 166.84.7.155 (21 May 2020 17:29:40 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: action@cs.stanford.edu
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:MqV5k0H8YCBqDqYM1AYg1OakFUA=
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Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:

We normally target a minimum of 128-bit security which in RSA terms is a
3072-bit key. It’s probably overkill for Usenet.

We could just go to 4096 bits.  It's not like the speed difference matters
for Usenet.  The signature length is a bit longer, but meh.

I'd rather use ed25519, but I think that has more backwards compatibility
challenges.

Is anyone worried that 2048-bit RSA is not strong enough given how much
of a pain it is to replace keys and thus how long of an expected
lifetime we would like them to have?  They're probably not quantum-safe
(not that I really expect anyone to waste quantum computing cycles on
breaking Usenet control messages).

AFAICS signed control messages include the date header. Provided news
servers reject date headers that are distant in time, and provided
header parsing is unambiguous, you only need to upgrade to quantum-safe
signatures when you think a quantum computer actually exists, since
stale control messages will be rejected anyway.

Right, but my point is that this forces another key upgrade.  There's a
reason why it's been 24 years since we changed the key.  :)  But it
doesn't sound like there's a good way to anticipate that, so we're stuck
with it anyway.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:09 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder7.news.weretis.net!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.2a01cb0800a77500ac34b989fcd4440c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr!not-for-mail
From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 20:09:21 +0200
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <ra6g4m$t48$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
<f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org>
<np3zha2u4hr.fsf@sanger.ac.uk> <87lflm5ugx.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
<875zcp66uk.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> <87r1vdb3i6.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:09:26 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: news.trigofacile.com; posting-account="julien"; posting-host="2a01cb0800a77500ac34b989fcd4440c.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr:2a01:cb08:a7:7500:ac34:b989:fcd4:440c";
logging-data="29832"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@trigofacile.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0
In-Reply-To: <87r1vdb3i6.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
Content-Language: fr
View all headers
Hi Russ,

AFAICS signed control messages include the date header. Provided news
servers reject date headers that are distant in time, and provided
header parsing is unambiguous, you only need to upgrade to quantum-safe
signatures when you think a quantum computer actually exists, since
stale control messages will be rejected anyway.

Right, but my point is that this forces another key upgrade.  There's a
reason why it's been 24 years since we changed the key.  :)  But it
doesn't sound like there's a good way to anticipate that, so we're stuck
with it anyway.

What about a new control message type that serves to update the public PGP key?
Still maintained news servers could implement that new feature for their next release.

As far as I see, if a private key is compromised, it does not change much between modifying the key and issuing control messages with that new key, and directly issuing control messages with the compromised key.
Am I missing something?

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Quand je raconterai mon odyssée, personne ne me croira ! »
   (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Adam H. Kerman
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:37 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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From: ahk...@chinet.com (Adam H. Kerman)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Thu, 21 May 2020 18:37:46 -0000 (UTC)
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Julien <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:

. . .

What about a new control message type that serves to update the public
PGP key?

Good heavens.

I don't see how you can safely get around manual intervention.

. . .


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 06:02 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:02:07 +0200
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <ra7pt4$n93$1@news.trigofacile.com>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi Adam,

What about a new control message type that serves to update the public
PGP key?

Good heavens.

I don't see how you can safely get around manual intervention.

Well, I was under the assumption that once you trusted once uk.* for instance (manually adding its public PGP key), renewals of the same UID used for control messages could be automated as long as the news user can update the list of PGP keys it trusts.

If that idea is bad, OK, that was just an idea to share for an in-band update.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« C'est une souricière, ils sont faits comme des rats ! »
   (Astérix)


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 08:20 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 10:20:41 +0200
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
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Hi Richard,

Julien ÉLIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> writes:
Incidentally, though it would be a huger gap, there's also the NAS
protocol (RFC 4707) that could be used to provide information and
updates to the list of newsgroups.
It also gives PGP public keys, so updates are easily done through this way.
The only PGP keys to maintain are the one of the NAS servers you trust
to give you information.

Does it offer more than adding a signature PGPKEYS.asc alongside (say)
ftp.isc.org/pub/pgpcontrol/PGPKEYS and verifying that as part of
buildinnkeyring?

For just an update of PGP keys, yes, using PGPKEYS would be enough.

To update PGP keys of Big-8 and uk.* only (for instance if one only trusts these two hierarchy administrators):

   wget 'http://usenet.trigofacile.com/hierarchies/index.py?see=COMP,UK&only=pgpkeys' -O downloaded-keys

The "downloaded-keys" file will contain the substract of PGPKEYS the news admin is interested in.

Properly signing and checking the result, like the whole PGPKEYS file (with PGPKEYS.asc like you suggest), is of course needed for security.
Put that into for instance a weekly crontab, and that's it.



With GPG 2.1.8, only 15 keys out of 103 in PGPKEYS are imported.
Anyway, there are far less than 103 active hierarchies nowadays.

@Paolo, it seems that the PGP key of aioe.* has expired:

pub   dsa1024 2007-09-17 [SC] [expirée : 2010-09-16]
       22031AAC51E7C7FD664F1D8090DF6C712322A7F8
uid          [ expirée ] usenet@aioe.org (Aioe.org Steering Group) <usenet@aioe.org>


--
Julien ÉLIE

« Give laugh to all but smile to one,
   Give cheeks to all but lips to one,
   Give love to all but Heart to one,
   Let everybody love you
   But you love one. »


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Aioe
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 20:09 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!.POSTED.o6Nu4kIQRLaHrsPWKe426A.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail
From: est...@aioe.org (Aioe)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 20:09:24 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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Il Fri, 22 May 2020 10:20:41 +0200, Julien ÉLIE ha scritto:


@Paolo, it seems that the PGP key of aioe.* has expired:

yes, i know.

Many years ago, around 2005, i bought a dedicated server and a backup
service from an (italian) provider who had just started the business that
offered very affordable prices to its first customers. The contract
stipulated that the price would remain the same forever.

Four years later, my server and backup service were suddenly shut down for
no reason and without warning.

In everyday life, i am a lawyer and so i sued them and i got a lavish
compensation from them on condition that the terms of the agreement
remained confidential. At the same time they refused to give me back the
disk images of the server and the contents of the backup. They preferred
to pay a great deal of compensation than to give me the data back.

I suppose they did this to prevent me from realizing that i had been
cheated by them. The price was too cheap to be true, the characteristics
of the service did not seem those foreseen by the contract even if i
didn't care about this because the price was so cheap that i was fine.
Criminal law is the largest part of my job, if they had been convicted of
fraud they would have closed their firm.

At that time, i kept the private key of the aioe.* hierarchy only on the
server disks and in the backup and i lost both.
I was very stupid to do this but i did not imagine that the provider
could behave in bad faith against me.

So at this point i can't renew the key because i can't sign the new one
with the old one.

I have never asked for an exception to the rule because i am ashamed of
being such an idiot. But i was a kid, i'm a hobbyist, i never needed to
create other groups after that time.

If there's a workaround, i'm happy to renew my key.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Julien_ÉLIE
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 06:51 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien_ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 08:51:54 +0200
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
Message-ID: <rad5if$o9m$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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Hi Paolo,

@Paolo, it seems that the PGP key of aioe.* has expired

[...]

At that time, i kept the private key of the aioe.* hierarchy only on the
server disks and in the backup and i lost both.

So at this point i can't renew the key because i can't sign the new one
with the old one.

Thanks for the long explanation, that's pretty clear!
As the old key is no longer available, it is not useful to keep it.  Why not just ask for an update to a new key?  May be worthwhile to do that in case you have a change in your hierarchy in a few months or weeks. At least people may get a chance to have your new key already installed.
Same thing for NoCeM.

Incidentally:
https://news.aioe.org/documentation/aioe-technical-data/
Links in that page lead to 404 errors (checkgroup.txt, aioe.txt, control.ctl).

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Give laugh to all but smile to one,
   Give cheeks to all but lips to one,
   Give love to all but Heart to one,
   Let everybody love you
   But you love one. »


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Thomas Hochstein
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 21:05 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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From: thh...@inter.net (Thomas Hochstein)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 23:05:27 +0200
Message-ID: <nah.2005312305.92@meneldor.ancalagon.de>
References: <r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com> <f4a14962-c62d-1082-e0e1-c3b676dfe198@big-8.org> <ra42os$jmp$2@dont-email.me> <877dx65o7q.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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Russ Allbery wrote:

The current control messages are still being issued with the same key that
David Lawrence created in 1996.  At this point, that key is old enough
that modern versions of GnuPG cannot use it.

Yes, we've got the same problem (with a key from the same year :)).

The most likely approach will be to generate a new key and issue control
messages with both the old and new keys for some (extended) transition
period.

That was my first idea, too. AFAIS it's not possible to sign one
message with different keys.

I was hoping someone else would have time to go ahead, choose a
sensible new key format and try it ...

-thh


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: D. Stussy
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2020 06:15 UTC
References: 1
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From: spa...@spam.org (D. Stussy)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2020 23:15:57 -0700
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"Julien ÉLIE"  wrote in message news:r6chgv$dam$1@news.trigofacile.com...
Is there a current strategy to deal with weak PGP keys that are
currently used to sign control articles and no longer accepted by recent
GnuPG versions?

Shouldn't news administrators still sending control articles with such
weak PGP keys generate a new key as soon as possible and begin to send
control articles in double during a few years?  (one control article
signed with the old key for legacy systems, and one with the new secure key)


Most hierarchies are concerned, according to an article from
news.software.nntp in 2015 (<n62tgi$4co$1@csiph.com> from Kevin
Bowling).  Only 15 successfully imported keys out of 104 with GnuPG 2.1 !
One has to switch to old GnuPG 1.x versions, which one day won't be
supported any longer...

kev-ws-aurora% gpg --import --homedir=. PGPKEYS
gpg: WARNING: unsafe permissions on homedir '.'
gpg: Warning: using insecure memory!
gpg: keybox './pubring.kbx' created
gpg: ./trustdb.gpg: trustdb created
gpg: key 2322A7F8: public key "usenet@aioe.org (Aioe.org Steering Group)
<usenet@aioe.org>" imported
gpg: key 7DC1A266: public key "bofh-control@lists.killfile.org" imported
gpg: key 91EDC5F2: public key "news@dictatorshandbook.net" imported
gpg: key C86CC6E1: public key "News Subsystem <news@ns.grisbi.org>" imported
gpg: key F1420E8E: public key "news@zhaum.xs4all.nl" imported
gpg: key ED63AD9A: public key "newsmaster@carnet.hr" imported
gpg: key 624FADC4: public key "control@usenet.ie" imported
gpg: key DC7DB7A7: public key "mensa.config" imported
gpg: key E60E2FAA: public key "control-microsoft@trigofacile.com" imported
gpg: key 9574C26C: public key "pbinfo-news-admin
<news@uni-paderborn.de>" imported
gpg: key 8B2ACFBB: public key "newsadmin@perl.org" imported
gpg: key 161BD1B7: public key "news@postgresql.org" imported
gpg: key 6933A636: public key "sfnet@cs.tut.fi" imported
gpg: key 85854234: public key "Hirtenrat (Maintainer szaf.*)
<hirtenrat@szaf.org>" imported
gpg: key B73CAF1B: public key "us-control@lists.killfile.org" imported
gpg: Total number processed: 104
gpg:     skipped PGP-2 keys: 89
gpg:               imported: 15
============
I get a similar result.  I run a cron job once per week to update keys against the public key servers.  What they should do is update the keys on the public servers at least a week before intended use.

Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 00:23 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.etla.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!usenet-its.stanford.edu!usenet.stanford.edu!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:23:25 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
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Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> writes:

The current control messages are still being issued with the same key
that David Lawrence created in 1996.  At this point, that key is old
enough that modern versions of GnuPG cannot use it.  I've been meaning
to deal with this for a long time but have had very little time (and
still have very little time) to make many changes to the software and
process.

The most likely approach will be to generate a new key and issue control
messages with both the old and new keys for some (extended) transition
period.

As a quick update on this, I've been working on wrangling PGP::Sign into
shape, since all the rest of my machinery depends on it.  That's mostly
done, although I have to sort out some more test failures.  It now
supports using GnuPG v2 to create and validate signatures.

Once I get the rest of the test issues sorted out, the next step is to
create a new test key for the Big Eight and start dual-issuing control
messages.  I'll do that for a while and let people test (and find any
problems with the key that might require recreating it) before officially
changing the key.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Jason Evans
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 15:37 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: jsev...@mailfence.com (Jason Evans)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 15:37:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:23:25 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> writes:

Once I get the rest of the test issues sorted out, the next step is to
create a new test key for the Big Eight and start dual-issuing control
messages.  I'll do that for a while and let people test (and find any
problems with the key that might require recreating it) before
officially changing the key.

Thanks for working on this, Russ. We really appreciate it!

Jason



Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Matthew Vernon
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: A header line that ends up very out of date
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:35 UTC
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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.etla.org!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: matt...@debian.org (Matthew Vernon)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:35:57 +0100
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Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> writes:

Once I get the rest of the test issues sorted out, the next step is to
create a new test key for the Big Eight and start dual-issuing control
messages.  I'll do that for a while and let people test (and find any
problems with the key that might require recreating it) before officially
changing the key.

Do you have a plan for getting news server operators to deploy the new
key? If so, could we potentially piggy-back other heirarchies into that
process?

Matthew
[one of my hats is uk.* Control]
--
 `O'-----0     `O'---.       `O'---.       `O'---.
   \___| |       \___|0-/      \___|/        \___|
    |  | /\       |  |  \       |  |\         |  |
The Dangers of modern veterinary life


Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
From: Russ Allbery
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies, news.software.nntp
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:26 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.killfile.org!news.eyrie.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.admin.hierarchies,news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Strategy for the upgrade of weak PGP keys?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:26:52 -0700
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87lfi1tj1f.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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Matthew Vernon <matthew@debian.org> writes:
Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> writes:

Once I get the rest of the test issues sorted out, the next step is to
create a new test key for the Big Eight and start dual-issuing control
messages.  I'll do that for a while and let people test (and find any
problems with the key that might require recreating it) before
officially changing the key.

Do you have a plan for getting news server operators to deploy the new
key? If so, could we potentially piggy-back other heirarchies into that
process?

I don't, other than updating the key on ftp.isc.org and making an
announcement to news.admin.announce (and presumably the Big Eight Board
will want to make an announcement to news.announce.newgroups).

I expect to have to keep issuing the control messages with the old key for
years.  I'll probably keep doing it until Debian drops GnuPG v1 from the
archive.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org)             https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/

          Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
     https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html explains why.


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