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devel / comp.emulators.apple2 / Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

SubjectAuthor
* Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
+* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorfadden
|+- Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorDavid Schmidt
|+* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
||`* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorDavid Schmidt
|| `- Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
|`* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
| `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorfadden
|  +* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorJerry Penner
|  |`- Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorfadden
|  +- Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorDavid Schmidt
|  `- Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
`* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorI am Rob
 `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorDavid Schmidt
  `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorfadden
   `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorDavid Schmidt
    +* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorI am Rob
    |`- Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorI am Rob
    `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
     `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
      `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorfadden
       `* Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorA2CPM
        `- Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulatorfadden

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Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: a2...@wilserv.com (A2CPM)
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 by: A2CPM - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:31 UTC

Hi, Y'all
About 10 years ago I posted in this group about wanting an Apple ][ emulator that would run on my then new Chromebook. Now, thanks to DOSBox, I'm able to run ApplePC which satisfies my current Apple ][ environment testing needs. But now I'm in need of an image manipulator, like AppleCider, that doesn't need Windows, i.e. can run in DOSBox. Is there such a beast???
Willi

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

<d9e2428f-2d12-4135-a948-38281187a3cen@googlegroups.com>

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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 14:34:00 -0800 (PST)
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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: thefad...@gmail.com (fadden)
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 by: fadden - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 22:34 UTC

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 8:31:35 AM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
> About 10 years ago I posted in this group about wanting an Apple ][ emulator that would run on my then new Chromebook. Now, thanks to DOSBox, I'm able to run ApplePC which satisfies my current Apple ][ environment testing needs. But now I'm in need of an image manipulator, like AppleCider, that doesn't need Windows, i.e. can run in DOSBox. Is there such a beast???

To be clear: you want a command-line utility that runs in MS-DOS?

What do you want it to do?

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: gids...@sasktel.net (I am Rob)
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 by: I am Rob - Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:15 UTC

> About 10 years ago I posted in this group about wanting an Apple ][ emulator that would run on my then new Chromebook. Now, thanks to DOSBox, I'm able to run ApplePC which satisfies my current Apple ][ environment testing needs. But now I'm in need of an image manipulator, like AppleCider, that doesn't need Windows, i.e. can run in DOSBox. Is there such a beast???

There is MSDos command line software for the Apple II that Reads/writes to FAT formatted disks. Might be able to work within Applecider and allow access to files from DosBox. Although it may only access FAT12 disks.

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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From: schmi...@my-deja.com (David Schmidt)
Newsgroups: comp.emulators.apple2
Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:03:41 -0500
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 by: David Schmidt - Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:03 UTC

On 1/18/23 5:34 PM, fadden wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 8:31:35 AM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
>> About 10 years ago I posted in this group about wanting an Apple ][ emulator that would run on my then new Chromebook. Now, thanks to DOSBox, I'm able to run ApplePC which satisfies my current Apple ][ environment testing needs. But now I'm in need of an image manipulator, like AppleCider, that doesn't need Windows, i.e. can run in DOSBox. Is there such a beast???
>
> To be clear: you want a command-line utility that runs in MS-DOS?
>
> What do you want it to do?

Aside: this sounds like fun - spinning up a DOS Borland C++ environment
again to cook up an image manipulator. Port most of AppleCommander
command line to C++ from Java and off we go...

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: a2...@wilserv.com (A2CPM)
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 by: A2CPM - Fri, 20 Jan 2023 20:03 UTC

Hi!

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 5:34:01 PM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 8:31:35 AM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
> > About 10 years ago I posted in this group about wanting an Apple ][ emulator that would run on my then new Chromebook. Now, thanks to DOSBox, I'm able to run ApplePC which satisfies my current Apple ][ environment testing needs. But now I'm in need of an image manipulator, like AppleCider, that doesn't need Windows, i.e. can run in DOSBox. Is there such a beast???
> To be clear: you want a command-line utility that runs in MS-DOS?
>
> What do you want it to do?
Yes, command line utility that runs in MS-DOS. Ideally, it would take a text file and convert it to an image of a 5.25 inch ProDOS disk. That way, I could mount the image in ApplePC and transfer the text file to an existing 32 MB HD image for compilation and testing.

Willi

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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From: schmi...@my-deja.com (David Schmidt)
Newsgroups: comp.emulators.apple2
Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:02:46 -0500
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 by: David Schmidt - Fri, 20 Jan 2023 21:02 UTC

On 1/20/23 3:03 PM, A2CPM wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 5:34:01 PM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 8:31:35 AM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
>> What do you want it to do?
> Yes, command line utility that runs in MS-DOS. Ideally, it would take a text file and convert it to an image of a 5.25 inch ProDOS disk. That way, I could mount the image in ApplePC and transfer the text file to an existing 32 MB HD image for compilation and testing.

So you want it to _inject_ a text file into an existing disk image? Or,
you want the text file to somehow form the basis for a new disk image?

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: a2...@wilserv.com (A2CPM)
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 by: A2CPM - Fri, 20 Jan 2023 22:52 UTC

Hi!

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:47 PM UTC-5, schmidtd wrote:
> On 1/20/23 3:03 PM, A2CPM wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 5:34:01 PM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 8:31:35 AM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
> >> What do you want it to do?
> > Yes, command line utility that runs in MS-DOS. Ideally, it would take a text file and convert it to an image of a 5.25 inch ProDOS disk. That way, I could mount the image in ApplePC and transfer the text file to an existing 32 MB HD image for compilation and testing.
> So you want it to _inject_ a text file into an existing disk image? Or,
> you want the text file to somehow form the basis for a new disk image?
Either one. When I test using AppleCider and AppleWin, via Windows 10, I do any final editing on the text file with Notepad and then transfer the text file into a 32 MB HD image for compilation and testing. ApplePC accesses the same '.HDV' files as AppleWin so, for what I'm testing, I'm able to compile and test using the same sequences with both AppleWin and ApplePC. Creating a new disk image from a file is a simpler task, IMHO.

Willi

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: a2...@wilserv.com (A2CPM)
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 by: A2CPM - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 00:19 UTC

Hi, Andy!

I'd like to work with you on improving AppleCider's ability to cope with images of CP/M disks.

Willi

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: thefad...@gmail.com (fadden)
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 by: fadden - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 05:22 UTC

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:19:33 PM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
> I'd like to work with you on improving AppleCider's ability to cope with images of CP/M disks.

Presumably you mean CiderPress?

The support in CiderPress is a reflection of my level of familiarity with CP/M, which is pretty low. It supports 140KB disks, but read-only.

I found what appear to be a couple of 800KB CP/AM disks, which look like CP/M with a different catalog start and possibly a different block size. The tricky part is stuff like, "The DPB is not usually stored on disc. It is either hardwired into the BIOS, or generated on the fly." (https://www.seasip.info/Cpm/format31.html) So it might be necessary to have a set of possible configurations and apply each in turn until something reasonable pops out.

In any event, I hope to have time to make some improvements in a couple of months.

With respect to your original question, Cadius (https://brutaldeluxe.fr/products/crossdevtools/cadius/index.html) can create disk images and copy files on and off of ProDOS disks. If you want actual MS-DOS, and not just command-line, it'd probably work for that as well, being straightforward ANSI C..

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
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 by: Jerry Penner - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 07:21 UTC

fadden <thefadden@gmail.com> writes:

> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:19:33 PM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
>> I'd like to work with you on improving AppleCider's ability to cope with images of CP/M disks.
>
> Presumably you mean CiderPress?
>
> The support in CiderPress is a reflection of my level of familiarity with CP/M, which is
> pretty low. It supports 140KB disks, but read-only.
>
> I found what appear to be a couple of 800KB CP/AM disks, which look like CP/M with a
> different catalog start and possibly a different block size. The tricky part is stuff
> like, "The DPB is not usually stored on disc. It is either hardwired into the BIOS, or
> generated on the fly." (https://www.seasip.info/Cpm/format31.html) So it might be
> necessary to have a set of possible configurations and apply each in turn until something
> reasonable pops out.
>
> In any event, I hope to have time to make some improvements in a couple of months.
>
> With respect to your original question, Cadius
> (https://brutaldeluxe.fr/products/crossdevtools/cadius/index.html) can create disk images
> and copy files on and off of ProDOS disks. If you want actual MS-DOS, and not just
> command-line, it'd probably work for that as well, being straightforward ANSI C.

I probably know less about CP/M than either of you. The Debian
`cpmtools' package has a file, /etc/cpmtools/diskdefs, with information
on the disk layouts for quite a variety of systems and floppy-disk
sizes. There are 98 such definitions in the package on my system.

The two Apple II-related entries are:

# Apple II CP/M skew o Apple II DOS 3.3 skew
diskdef apple-do
seclen 256
tracks 35
sectrk 16
blocksize 1024
maxdir 64
skewtab 0,6,12,3,9,15,14,5,11,2,8,7,13,4,10,1
boottrk 3
os 2.2
end

# Apple II CP/M skew o Apple II PRODOS skew
diskdef apple-po
seclen 256
tracks 35
sectrk 16
blocksize 1024
maxdir 64
skewtab 0,9,3,12,6,15,1,10,4,13,7,8,2,11,5,14
boottrk 3
os 2.2
end

Perhaps, this is helpful to someone?

--
--
Jerry jerry+a2 at jpen.ca

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
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 by: David Schmidt - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 16:30 UTC

On 1/21/23 12:22 AM, fadden wrote:
> [...]
> With respect to your original question, Cadius (https://brutaldeluxe.fr/products/crossdevtools/cadius/index.html) can create disk images and copy files on and off of ProDOS disks. If you want actual MS-DOS, and not just command-line, it'd probably work for that as well, being straightforward ANSI C.

I fired up my old Borland C++ compilers to start playing around. Of
note, Cadius has some W32 dependencies (notably file structures) and of
course it is ProDOS only and requires long file names.

I guess that's probably the biggest hurdle here - actual DOS 8.3 names
(and not VFAT extensions) in doing this in pure DOS.

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: a2...@wilserv.com (A2CPM)
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 by: A2CPM - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:08 UTC

Hi!

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 12:22:14 AM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
<--- snip --->
> With respect to your original question, Cadius (https://brutaldeluxe.fr/products/crossdevtools/cadius/index.html) can create disk images and copy files on and off of ProDOS disks. If you want actual MS-DOS, and not just command-line, it'd probably work for that as well, being straightforward ANSI C.

"CADIUS.EXE", when run in DOSBox, reports 'This program cannot be run in DOS mode'. So, I'm looking into rolling my own.

Willi

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: thefad...@gmail.com (fadden)
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 by: fadden - Sat, 21 Jan 2023 22:08 UTC

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 11:21:28 PM UTC-8, Jerry Penner wrote:
> The Debian
> `cpmtools' package has a file, /etc/cpmtools/diskdefs, with information
> on the disk layouts for quite a variety of systems and floppy-disk
> sizes. There are 98 such definitions in the package on my system.

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Filesystems like ProDOS and HFS have a universal "start here" block that defines the geometry for the rest of the disk. CP/M expects those values to be defined elsewhere, so simple acts like reading the disk directory require probing multiple configurations.

Handling 140KB Apple II disks is reasonably straightforward. Handling arbitrary CP/M volumes feels risky. The most important thing, if you want to be able to write data to CP/M disks, is to have a reliable way to know when you've got it wrong.

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 by: David Schmidt - Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:00 UTC

On 1/18/23 6:15 PM, I am Rob wrote:
> There is MSDos command line software for the Apple II that Reads/writes to FAT formatted disks.

There is? What/where is it?

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
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 by: fadden - Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:48 UTC

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> On 1/18/23 6:15 PM, I am Rob wrote:
> > There is MSDos command line software for the Apple II that Reads/writes to FAT formatted disks.
> There is? What/where is it?

Peter Watson's shareware MSDOS utilities, for the IIgs (Orca/GNO).

This looks like it: https://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/msdos-tools-v2-21.html

Also: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.apple2/c/8bX4SstkN6A

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 by: David Schmidt - Mon, 23 Jan 2023 15:55 UTC

On 1/23/23 10:48 AM, fadden wrote:
> On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 7:00:14 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
>> On 1/18/23 6:15 PM, I am Rob wrote:
>>> There is MSDos command line software for the Apple II that Reads/writes to FAT formatted disks.
>> There is? What/where is it?
>
> Peter Watson's shareware MSDOS utilities, for the IIgs (Orca/GNO).
>
> This looks like it: https://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/msdos-tools-v2-21.html
>
> Also: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.apple2/c/8bX4SstkN6A

Ah, writing MSDOS _from_ the GS. That wasn't the direction I understood
was interesting to the OP.

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: gids...@sasktel.net (I am Rob)
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 by: I am Rob - Tue, 24 Jan 2023 03:13 UTC

> > Peter Watson's shareware MSDOS utilities, for the IIgs (Orca/GNO).
> >
> > This looks like it: https://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/msdos-tools-v2-21.html
> >
> > Also: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.apple2/c/8bX4SstkN6A
> Ah, writing MSDOS _from_ the GS. That wasn't the direction I understood
> was interesting to the OP.

No. This is not what I have. The one I have is Prodos system based and does not have .exe or S16 files.

I can't seem to locate it on Asimov, so I think I may have got it through someones collection I bought at one time.

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: gids...@sasktel.net (I am Rob)
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 by: I am Rob - Tue, 24 Jan 2023 03:26 UTC

email me for a copy. I don't have an FTP client to upload to Asimov.

> No. This is not what I have. The one I have is Prodos system based and does not have .exe or S16 files.
>
> I can't seem to locate it on Asimov, so I think I may have got it through someones collection I bought at one time.

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
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 by: A2CPM - Tue, 24 Jan 2023 15:08 UTC

Hi!

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 10:55:22 AM UTC-5, schmidtd wrote:
> Ah, writing MSDOS _from_ the GS. That wasn't the direction I understood
> was interesting to the OP.

It took me some time to realize that "OP" meant me. Anyway, I wrote a program which I'm naming "GPDDIF", which stands for generate ProDOS disk image file. It was coded using Turbo Pascal. The compiled executable runs in DOSBox and accepts the name of a text file as a command line argument and generates a 143 KB '.DSK' file that can be accessed by "ApplePC".

Willi
..

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
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 by: A2CPM - Thu, 2 Feb 2023 09:19 UTC

sim2du10.zip at ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/emulators/simiie/ appears to be exactly that which I originally requested.
This information found at https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/apple2/emulator/2-9-10-SimIIe-SimSystem-IIe-version-1-0.html

Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
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 by: fadden - Thu, 2 Feb 2023 16:13 UTC

On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 1:19:51 AM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
> sim2du10.zip at ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/emulators/simiie/ appears to be exactly that which I originally requested.
> This information found at https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/apple2/emulator/2-9-10-SimIIe-SimSystem-IIe-version-1-0.html

One thing to be aware of: for Sim //e, a ".HDV" file had a small header on it. CiderPress recognizes the files but I don't know how many other things will. The header is a fixed-length string ("SIMSYSTEM_HDV") followed by the volume block count, and the rest of the file is just ProDOS-ordered blocks like you'd find in .po/.hdv, so modifying the tools to work on other files should be straightforward.

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Subject: Re: Needed: Non-Windows disk image manipulator
From: a2...@wilserv.com (A2CPM)
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 by: A2CPM - Fri, 3 Feb 2023 01:33 UTC

Hi!

On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 11:13:04 AM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
> One thing to be aware of: for Sim //e, a ".HDV" file had a small header on it. CiderPress recognizes the files but I don't know how many other things will. The header is a fixed-length string ("SIMSYSTEM_HDV") followed by the volume block count, and the rest of the file is just ProDOS-ordered blocks like you'd find in .po/.hdv, so modifying the tools to work on other files should be straightforward.

The DU "AFTP" program expects the ProDOS image file it accesses to have the 15 byte header you describe. I discovered that "AFTP" will work with '.DSK' image files. After exiting "ApplePC", simply use the MSDOS "COPY" command to prepend a 15 byte header to the disk image file you worked on with "ApplePC". "AFTP" didn't complain that the header I prepended to the '.DSK' file had a volume block count of $FFFF.

Willi

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 by: fadden - Fri, 3 Feb 2023 16:50 UTC

On Thursday, February 2, 2023 at 5:33:54 PM UTC-8, A2CPM wrote:
> "AFTP" didn't complain that the header I prepended to the '.DSK' file had a volume block count of $FFFF.

The reason the block count exists is to allow the file size to be less than the volume size. So you could create a 32MB ProDOS volume, but only have it take up a few KB on disk, saving space on the host computer. The emulator (and, presumably, the tools) will grow the file as needed as more files are added.

Something to be aware of if you're trying to work with a disk image of a specific size, since pretty much everything else assumes that the disk image file shouldn't expand.

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