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devel / comp.theory / Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

SubjectAuthor
* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input neverolcott
+* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputRichard Damon
|+* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
||`- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputRichard Damon
|`* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputDavid Brown
| +* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| |+* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputRichard Damon
| ||`- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| |`* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputDavid Brown
| | `- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| +* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| |`* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputJeff Barnett
| | `- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| +* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| |`* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputDavid Brown
| | +* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| | |`* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| | | `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| | |  +* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| | |  |`* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| | |  | +* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| | |  | |`* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| | |  | | `- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| | |  | `- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputRichard Damon
| | |  `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputRichard Damon
| | |   `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| | |    `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| | |     +- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| | |     `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputRichard Damon
| | |      `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
| | |       `- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputRichard Damon
| | +- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| | `- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
| `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
|  +- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never haltolcott
|  `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never haltAlan Mackenzie
|   `* P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
|    `- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputolcott
+- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Flibble
`- P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its inputMr Dribble

Pages:12
Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<tI-dnaoGCq6Ytkn_nZ2dnUU7_8xg4p2d@giganews.com>

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Subject: Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input
never halt
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 by: olcott - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 15:30 UTC

On 7/17/2022 10:04 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:10:11 -0500
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
>>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We do
>>>>> not want them here.
>>>>>
>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a serious
>>>>> manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a couple of
>>>>> emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.  Whether we make
>>>>> any progress remains to be seen, but it is not bothering other
>>>>> people.) If you do not get useful responses from him by email, you
>>>>> certainly will not do so here in these Usenet groups.
>>>>>
>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or find a
>>>>> different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.  It is
>>>>> not really asking too much, just basic politeness and human
>>>>> decency.
>>>>
>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
>>>
>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
>>> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
>>>
>>> void Px(void (*x)())
>>> {
>>> (void) H(x, x);
>>> return;
>>> }
>>>
>>> /Flibble
>>>
>>
>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses
>> to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you would
>> have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka
>> pathological input).
>
> I don't have to weaken anything: my signaling decider has three
> outcomes:
>
> 1) decision halts;
> 2) decision does not halt;
> 3) exception (pathological input).
>
> Even if we ignore the false positive your decider gives for Px above,
> you are still wrong to map pathological input to (2).
>
> /Flibble
>
>

I am moving my replies to your pasts back to comp.theory.

My criteria says DOES NOT HALT.
to transform this to PATHOLOGICAL SELF-REFERENCE
one wouLd be essentially saying I DON'T KNOW.
I DON'T KNOW is a weaker answer than NO

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<20220717163336.00005390@reddwarf.jmc.corp>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=35770&group=comp.theory#35770

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From: flib...@reddwarf.jmc.corp (Mr Flibble)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input
never halt
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 by: Mr Flibble - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 15:33 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:30:13 -0500
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:

> On 7/17/2022 10:04 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> > On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:10:11 -0500
> > olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
> >>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
> >>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
> >>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We
> >>>>> do not want them here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a
> >>>>> serious manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a
> >>>>> couple of emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.
> >>>>> Whether we make any progress remains to be seen, but it is not
> >>>>> bothering other people.) If you do not get useful responses
> >>>>> from him by email, you certainly will not do so here in these
> >>>>> Usenet groups.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or
> >>>>> find a different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.
> >>>>> It is not really asking too much, just basic politeness and
> >>>>> human decency.
> >>>>
> >>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
> >>>> only clueless on the most important points.
> >>>
> >>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
> >>> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
> >>>
> >>> void Px(void (*x)())
> >>> {
> >>> (void) H(x, x);
> >>> return;
> >>> }
> >>>
> >>> /Flibble
> >>>
> >>
> >> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
> >> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses
> >> to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you
> >> would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka
> >> pathological input).
> >
> > I don't have to weaken anything: my signaling decider has three
> > outcomes:
> >
> > 1) decision halts;
> > 2) decision does not halt;
> > 3) exception (pathological input).
> >
> > Even if we ignore the false positive your decider gives for Px
> > above, you are still wrong to map pathological input to (2).
> >
> > /Flibble
> >
> >
>
> I am moving my replies to your pasts back to comp.theory.
>
> My criteria says DOES NOT HALT.
> to transform this to PATHOLOGICAL SELF-REFERENCE
> one wouLd be essentially saying I DON'T KNOW.
> I DON'T KNOW is a weaker answer than NO

(3) is not I DON'T KNOW, (3) is PATHOLOGICAL INPUT, which makes my
signaling decider STRONGER not weaker.

/Flibble

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<6J6dnft4a75fr0n_nZ2dnUU7_81j4p2d@giganews.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=35771&group=comp.theory#35771

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 by: olcott - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:03 UTC

On 7/17/2022 10:33 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:30:13 -0500
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/17/2022 10:04 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:10:11 -0500
>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
>>>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
>>>>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We
>>>>>>> do not want them here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a
>>>>>>> serious manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a
>>>>>>> couple of emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.
>>>>>>> Whether we make any progress remains to be seen, but it is not
>>>>>>> bothering other people.) If you do not get useful responses
>>>>>>> from him by email, you certainly will not do so here in these
>>>>>>> Usenet groups.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or
>>>>>>> find a different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.
>>>>>>> It is not really asking too much, just basic politeness and
>>>>>>> human decency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
>>>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
>>>>> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
>>>>>
>>>>> void Px(void (*x)())
>>>>> {
>>>>> (void) H(x, x);
>>>>> return;
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
>>>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses
>>>> to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you
>>>> would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka
>>>> pathological input).
>>>
>>> I don't have to weaken anything: my signaling decider has three
>>> outcomes:
>>>
>>> 1) decision halts;
>>> 2) decision does not halt;
>>> 3) exception (pathological input).
>>>
>>> Even if we ignore the false positive your decider gives for Px
>>> above, you are still wrong to map pathological input to (2).
>>>
>>> /Flibble
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I am moving my replies to your pasts back to comp.theory.
>>
>> My criteria says DOES NOT HALT.
>> to transform this to PATHOLOGICAL SELF-REFERENCE
>> one wouLd be essentially saying I DON'T KNOW.
>> I DON'T KNOW is a weaker answer than NO
>
> (3) is not I DON'T KNOW, (3) is PATHOLOGICAL INPUT, which makes my
> signaling decider STRONGER not weaker.
>
> /Flibble
>

So you are saying that "I DON'T KNOW if the answer is YES or NO"
provides more information than the answer "NO the input does not halt" ?

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<20220717171133.00000f86@reddwarf.jmc.corp>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=35772&group=comp.theory#35772

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From: flib...@reddwarf.jmc.corp (Mr Flibble)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input
never halt
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 by: Mr Flibble - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:11 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 11:03:14 -0500
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:

> On 7/17/2022 10:33 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> > On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:30:13 -0500
> > olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/17/2022 10:04 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:10:11 -0500
> >>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
> >>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment
> >>>>>>>>> directly.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
> >>>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate
> >>>>>>> for c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined
> >>>>>>> comp.theory.  We do not want them here.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a
> >>>>>>> serious manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a
> >>>>>>> couple of emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.
> >>>>>>> Whether we make any progress remains to be seen, but it is not
> >>>>>>> bothering other people.) If you do not get useful responses
> >>>>>>> from him by email, you certainly will not do so here in these
> >>>>>>> Usenet groups.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or
> >>>>>>> find a different and /appropriate/ forum for these
> >>>>>>> discussions. It is not really asking too much, just basic
> >>>>>>> politeness and human decency.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
> >>>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers
> >>>>> the following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> void Px(void (*x)())
> >>>>> {
> >>>>> (void) H(x, x);
> >>>>> return;
> >>>>> }
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /Flibble
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
> >>>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it
> >>>> uses to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO
> >>>> you would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW
> >>>> (aka pathological input).
> >>>
> >>> I don't have to weaken anything: my signaling decider has three
> >>> outcomes:
> >>>
> >>> 1) decision halts;
> >>> 2) decision does not halt;
> >>> 3) exception (pathological input).
> >>>
> >>> Even if we ignore the false positive your decider gives for Px
> >>> above, you are still wrong to map pathological input to (2).
> >>>
> >>> /Flibble
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I am moving my replies to your pasts back to comp.theory.
> >>
> >> My criteria says DOES NOT HALT.
> >> to transform this to PATHOLOGICAL SELF-REFERENCE
> >> one wouLd be essentially saying I DON'T KNOW.
> >> I DON'T KNOW is a weaker answer than NO
> >
> > (3) is not I DON'T KNOW, (3) is PATHOLOGICAL INPUT, which makes my
> > signaling decider STRONGER not weaker.
> >
> > /Flibble
> >
>
> So you are saying that "I DON'T KNOW if the answer is YES or NO"
> provides more information than the answer "NO the input does not
> halt" ?

I am saying the answer is PATHOLOGICAL INPUT and *not* I DON'T KNOW.

/Flibble

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt [email review by David Brown]

<RPednTMfccI7q0n_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: olcott - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:19 UTC

On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>
>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
>>
>> I responded in email again last night at
>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>
>
> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for c.l.c
> and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We do not want
> them here.
>
> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a serious
> manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a couple of emails
> back and forth, outside this newsgroup.  Whether we make any progress
> remains to be seen, but it is not bothering other people.)  If you do
> not get useful responses from him by email, you certainly will not do so
> here in these Usenet groups.
>
> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or find a
> different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.  It is not
> really asking too much, just basic politeness and human decency.
>
>

This review seems to be progressing towards closure much faster than any
other review.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<QFWAK.598114$wIO9.34443@fx12.iad>

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:21 UTC

On 7/17/22 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>>>
>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We do
>>>> not want them here.
>>>>
>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a serious
>>>> manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a couple of
>>>> emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.  Whether we make any
>>>> progress remains to be seen, but it is not bothering other people.)
>>>>   If you do not get useful responses from him by email, you
>>>> certainly will not do so here in these Usenet groups.
>>>>
>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or find a
>>>> different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.  It is not
>>>> really asking too much, just basic politeness and human decency.
>>>
>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is only
>>> clueless on the most important points.
>>
>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
>> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
>>
>> void Px(void (*x)())
>> {
>>     (void) H(x, x);
>>     return;
>> }
>>
>> /Flibble
>>
>
> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly specifies
> every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses to trigger the
> signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you would have to weaken my
> criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka pathological input).
>

But it says that a Halting Computation is Non-Halting.

At least Flibble's machine never gives a "wrong" answer, just it is a
bit fuzzy what the "exception" case is.

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

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 by: Richard Damon - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:24 UTC

On 7/17/22 11:30 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/17/2022 10:04 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:10:11 -0500
>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
>>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
>>>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We do
>>>>>> not want them here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a serious
>>>>>> manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a couple of
>>>>>> emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.  Whether we make
>>>>>> any progress remains to be seen, but it is not bothering other
>>>>>> people.) If you do not get useful responses from him by email, you
>>>>>> certainly will not do so here in these Usenet groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or find a
>>>>>> different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.  It is
>>>>>> not really asking too much, just basic politeness and human
>>>>>> decency.
>>>>>
>>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
>>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
>>>>
>>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
>>>> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
>>>>
>>>> void Px(void (*x)())
>>>> {
>>>>     (void) H(x, x);
>>>>     return;
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> /Flibble
>>>
>>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
>>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses
>>> to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you would
>>> have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka
>>> pathological input).
>>
>> I don't have to weaken anything: my signaling decider has three
>> outcomes:
>>
>> 1) decision halts;
>> 2) decision does not halt;
>> 3) exception (pathological input).
>>
>> Even if we ignore the false positive your decider gives for Px above,
>> you are still wrong to map pathological input to (2).
>>
>> /Flibble
>>
>>
>
> I am moving my replies to your pasts back to comp.theory.
>
> My criteria says DOES NOT HALT.
> to transform this to PATHOLOGICAL SELF-REFERENCE
> one wouLd be essentially saying I DON'T KNOW.
> I DON'T KNOW is a weaker answer than NO
>
>

But "I don't know" is better than saying
"No" when the right answer is "YES".

The fact that you are too stupid to understand that The Halting
Problem's ONLY definition of the correct answer is the actual behaivor
of the machine referenced just shows where you are.

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<20220717180100.0000256b@reddwarf.jmc.corp>

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Subject: Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input
never halt
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 by: Mr Flibble - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 17:01 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:21:03 -0400
Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:

> On 7/17/22 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
> > On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
> >> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
> >>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I responded in email again last night at
> >>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
> >>>>
> >>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
> >>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We do
> >>>> not want them here.
> >>>>
> >>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a serious
> >>>> manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a couple of
> >>>> emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.  Whether we make
> >>>> any progress remains to be seen, but it is not bothering other
> >>>> people.) If you do not get useful responses from him by email,
> >>>> you certainly will not do so here in these Usenet groups.
> >>>>
> >>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or find
> >>>> a different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.  It
> >>>> is not really asking too much, just basic politeness and human
> >>>> decency.
> >>>
> >>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
> >>> only clueless on the most important points.
> >>
> >> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
> >> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
> >>
> >> void Px(void (*x)())
> >> {
> >>     (void) H(x, x);
> >>     return;
> >> }
> >>
> >> /Flibble
> >>
> >
> > Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
> > specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses
> > to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you
> > would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka
> > pathological input).
>
> But it says that a Halting Computation is Non-Halting.
>
> At least Flibble's machine never gives a "wrong" answer, just it is a
> bit fuzzy what the "exception" case is.

It isn't fuzzy: the exception is signaled when [Strachey
1965] "Impossible Program" pathological input is detected.

/Flibble

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<suqdnaeZdOJd2Un_nZ2dnUU7_83NnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: olcott - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 17:19 UTC

On 7/17/2022 12:01 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:21:03 -0400
> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/17/22 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
>>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
>>>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We do
>>>>>> not want them here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a serious
>>>>>> manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a couple of
>>>>>> emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.  Whether we make
>>>>>> any progress remains to be seen, but it is not bothering other
>>>>>> people.) If you do not get useful responses from him by email,
>>>>>> you certainly will not do so here in these Usenet groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or find
>>>>>> a different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.  It
>>>>>> is not really asking too much, just basic politeness and human
>>>>>> decency.
>>>>>
>>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
>>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
>>>>
>>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
>>>> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
>>>>
>>>> void Px(void (*x)())
>>>> {
>>>>     (void) H(x, x);
>>>>     return;
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> /Flibble
>>>>
>>>
>>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
>>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses
>>> to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you
>>> would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka
>>> pathological input).
>>
>> But it says that a Halting Computation is Non-Halting.
>>
>> At least Flibble's machine never gives a "wrong" answer, just it is a
>> bit fuzzy what the "exception" case is.
>
> It isn't fuzzy: the exception is signaled when [Strachey
> 1965] "Impossible Program" pathological input is detected.
>
> /Flibble
>

typedef void (*ptr)();

int T(P)
{ if (magic_happens_here1)
report_pathological_input();
else if (magic_happens_here2)
return 1;
return 0;
}

void Strachey_P()
{ L: if (T(Strachey_P)) goto L;
return;
}

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<20220717184320.000040fd@reddwarf.jmc.corp>

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From: flib...@reddwarf.jmc.corp (Mr Flibble)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input
never halt
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References: <f4-dnZEhBJ5ESU__nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
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Organization: Jupiter Mining Corporation
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 by: Mr Flibble - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 17:43 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:19:59 -0500
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:

> On 7/17/2022 12:01 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> > On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:21:03 -0400
> > Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/17/22 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
> >>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
> >>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
> >>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
> >>>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We
> >>>>>> do not want them here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a
> >>>>>> serious manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a
> >>>>>> couple of emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.
> >>>>>> Whether we make any progress remains to be seen, but it is not
> >>>>>> bothering other people.) If you do not get useful responses
> >>>>>> from him by email, you certainly will not do so here in these
> >>>>>> Usenet groups.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or
> >>>>>> find a different and /appropriate/ forum for these
> >>>>>> discussions.  It is not really asking too much, just basic
> >>>>>> politeness and human decency.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
> >>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
> >>>>
> >>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers
> >>>> the following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
> >>>>
> >>>> void Px(void (*x)())
> >>>> {
> >>>>     (void) H(x, x);
> >>>>     return;
> >>>> }
> >>>>
> >>>> /Flibble
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
> >>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it
> >>> uses to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO
> >>> you would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW
> >>> (aka pathological input).
> >>
> >> But it says that a Halting Computation is Non-Halting.
> >>
> >> At least Flibble's machine never gives a "wrong" answer, just it
> >> is a bit fuzzy what the "exception" case is.
> >
> > It isn't fuzzy: the exception is signaled when [Strachey
> > 1965] "Impossible Program" pathological input is detected.
> >
> > /Flibble
> >
>
> typedef void (*ptr)();
>
>
> int T(P)
> {
> if (magic_happens_here1)
> report_pathological_input();
> else if (magic_happens_here2)
> return 1;
> return 0;
> }
>
> void Strachey_P()
> {
> L: if (T(Strachey_P)) goto L;
> return;
> }

That isn't how my signaling decider works: when Strachey_P attempts to
call T the simulation forks into two copies with 0 being
immediately returned to one branch and 1 being immediately returned
to the other branch; simulation then proceeds to completion of these two
branches and only after that can pathology be determined. If I was to
code T it would be something like:

int T(void (*x)())
{ if (__self_reference(x))
return __fork_simulation(x); // returns 0 to one
branch, 1 to the other branch
else
return __simulate(x);
}

If should be obvious to anyone with sufficient experience that the
design of my signaling decider is such that no magic is involved.

/Flibble

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<kVXAK.57336$iR.8148@fx44.iad>

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 17:45 UTC

On 7/17/22 1:19 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/17/2022 12:01 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:21:03 -0400
>> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/17/22 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment directly.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
>>>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate for
>>>>>>> c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined comp.theory.  We do
>>>>>>> not want them here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a serious
>>>>>>> manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a couple of
>>>>>>> emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.  Whether we make
>>>>>>> any progress remains to be seen, but it is not bothering other
>>>>>>> people.) If you do not get useful responses from him by email,
>>>>>>> you certainly will not do so here in these Usenet groups.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or find
>>>>>>> a different and /appropriate/ forum for these discussions.  It
>>>>>>> is not really asking too much, just basic politeness and human
>>>>>>> decency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
>>>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers the
>>>>> following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
>>>>>
>>>>> void Px(void (*x)())
>>>>> {
>>>>>      (void) H(x, x);
>>>>>      return;
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>
>>>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
>>>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it uses
>>>> to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO you
>>>> would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW (aka
>>>> pathological input).
>>>
>>> But it says that a Halting Computation is Non-Halting.
>>>
>>> At least Flibble's machine never gives a "wrong" answer, just it is a
>>> bit fuzzy what the "exception" case is.
>>
>> It isn't fuzzy: the exception is signaled when [Strachey
>> 1965] "Impossible Program" pathological input is detected.
>>
>> /Flibble
>>
>
> typedef void (*ptr)();
>
>
> int T(P)
> {
>   if (magic_happens_here1)
>     report_pathological_input();
>   else if (magic_happens_here2)
>     return 1;
>   return 0;
> }
>
> void Strachey_P()
> {
>   L: if (T(Strachey_P)) goto L;
>   return;
> }
>
>
>
>

No more magic that you claim that you H corrected determines that the
correct simulation of its input is non-halting when it actually halts if
H reports this.

Yes, your H can correctly determine that if H was just a pure simulator,
that the input would be non-halting, but that isn't the question that
the halt decider needs to decide.

Since H isn't just a pure simulator, it needs to decide on if H does
what it does, is this input non-halting.

Since when H(P,P) returns 0, that makes P(P) halting, that isn't the
correct answer. DEFINITION.

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<20220717185033.00000d55@reddwarf.jmc.corp>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=35782&group=comp.theory#35782

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From: flib...@reddwarf.jmc.corp (Mr Flibble)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input
never halt
Message-ID: <20220717185033.00000d55@reddwarf.jmc.corp>
References: <f4-dnZEhBJ5ESU__nZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
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<kVXAK.57336$iR.8148@fx44.iad>
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 by: Mr Flibble - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 17:50 UTC

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 13:45:51 -0400
Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:

> On 7/17/22 1:19 PM, olcott wrote:
> > On 7/17/2022 12:01 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:21:03 -0400
> >> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 7/17/22 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
> >>>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
> >>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment
> >>>>>>>>> directly.)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
> >>>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate
> >>>>>>> for c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined
> >>>>>>> comp.theory.  We do not want them here.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a
> >>>>>>> serious manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a
> >>>>>>> couple of emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.
> >>>>>>> Whether we make any progress remains to be seen, but it is
> >>>>>>> not bothering other people.) If you do not get useful
> >>>>>>> responses from him by email, you certainly will not do so
> >>>>>>> here in these Usenet groups.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or
> >>>>>>> find a different and /appropriate/ forum for these
> >>>>>>> discussions.  It is not really asking too much, just basic
> >>>>>>> politeness and human decency.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
> >>>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers
> >>>>> the following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> void Px(void (*x)())
> >>>>> {
> >>>>>      (void) H(x, x);
> >>>>>      return;
> >>>>> }
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /Flibble
> >>>>
> >>>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
> >>>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it
> >>>> uses to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO
> >>>> you would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW
> >>>> (aka pathological input).
> >>>
> >>> But it says that a Halting Computation is Non-Halting.
> >>>
> >>> At least Flibble's machine never gives a "wrong" answer, just it
> >>> is a bit fuzzy what the "exception" case is.
> >>
> >> It isn't fuzzy: the exception is signaled when [Strachey
> >> 1965] "Impossible Program" pathological input is detected.
> >>
> >> /Flibble
> >>
> >
> > typedef void (*ptr)();
> >
> >
> > int T(P)
> > {
> >   if (magic_happens_here1)
> >     report_pathological_input();
> >   else if (magic_happens_here2)
> >     return 1;
> >   return 0;
> > }
> >
> > void Strachey_P()
> > {
> >   L: if (T(Strachey_P)) goto L;
> >   return;
> > }
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> No more magic that you claim that you H corrected determines that the
> correct simulation of its input is non-halting when it actually halts
> if H reports this.
>
> Yes, your H can correctly determine that if H was just a pure
> simulator, that the input would be non-halting, but that isn't the
> question that the halt decider needs to decide.
>
> Since H isn't just a pure simulator, it needs to decide on if H does
> what it does, is this input non-halting.
>
> Since when H(P,P) returns 0, that makes P(P) halting, that isn't the
> correct answer. DEFINITION.

It's hard to keep track of these things but I think Olcott has stopped
posting on comp.lang.c++ and he has plinked you in this newsgroup so
can't see your replies, so I wouldn't waste your time pointing out his
errors.

/Flibble

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

<tb1j1v$3q1d0$1@dont-email.me>

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From: jbb...@notatt.com (Jeff Barnett)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.c,comp.theory
Subject: Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input
never halt
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:05:50 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Jeff Barnett - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 18:05 UTC

On 7/17/2022 3:28 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 19:32:53 +0200
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
>> On 16/07/2022 17:33, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/16/22 11:10 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> This conclusively proves that H(P,P) correctly simulates its input
>>>> and that that the behavior of the correctly simulated P is very
>>>> different than the directly executed P(P).
>>>
>>> The you have just invaldated your proof as you P isn't defined
>>> right.
>>>
>>> Sorry you wasted all those years on such a simple mistake.
>>>
>>
>> Richard, will you /please/ just give it a break? The guy is a
>> trisector. His "proof" is bogus - he doesn't even have a clear idea
>> of what he is trying to prove. But he is obsessed about it, having
>> spent far too much time and effort over the years, and he cannot
>> admit to himself that it is fundamentally flawed. Instead, he is
>> looking for attention and posting more repetitively, more
>> aggressively, and more often in places where many people have
>> specifically asked him not to. He cannot refute your points but in
>> his distorted mindset, he is convinced he is correct - therefore
>> others who disagree must be technically incompetent, stupid, or
>> malicious.
>>
>> Everyone here (in all three groups) knows /you/ understand the theory
>> involved here. Everyone knows Olcott is wrong. Everyone who has any
>> interest and knowledge on the topic, already knows /how/ he is wrong,
>> why his ideas cannot work, and where to find real information about
>> the halting problem.
>>
>> So nobody gains anything from these threads. At the start, it might
>> have been interesting or entertaining - that stage is long gone. You
>> and Olcott are going round in circles, writing nothing new. Mr.
>> Flibble is even worse, bringing his own equally (but differently)
>> flawed ideas into the mix.
>
> How am I even worse? If you think my ideas are flawed then kindly point
> out those flaws rather than just indulge in wand waving.
That's a fair question and comment. But what about the rest of the
message? Do you think David Brown is so off target that he can be ignored?
--
Jeff Barnett

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

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From: Rich...@Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
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 by: Richard Damon - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 18:11 UTC

On 7/17/22 1:50 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 13:45:51 -0400
> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/17/22 1:19 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/17/2022 12:01 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 12:21:03 -0400
>>>> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/17/22 10:10 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:40 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 08:33:36 -0500
>>>>>>> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/17/2022 8:25 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 17/07/2022 14:48, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/16/2022 12:32 PM, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> (My email address is valid if you want to comment
>>>>>>>>>>> directly.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I responded in email again last night at
>>>>>>>>>> Jul 16, 2022, 7:11 PM (12 hours ago)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be clear here - these threads are entirely inappropriate
>>>>>>>>> for c.l.c and c.l.c++, and have apparently ruined
>>>>>>>>> comp.theory.  We do not want them here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If people want to discuss Olcott's theories with him in a
>>>>>>>>> serious manner, then they can do so by email.  (We have had a
>>>>>>>>> couple of emails back and forth, outside this newsgroup.
>>>>>>>>> Whether we make any progress remains to be seen, but it is
>>>>>>>>> not bothering other people.) If you do not get useful
>>>>>>>>> responses from him by email, you certainly will not do so
>>>>>>>>> here in these Usenet groups.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So please, Olcott, Flibble, and others - stick to email, or
>>>>>>>>> find a different and /appropriate/ forum for these
>>>>>>>>> discussions.  It is not really asking too much, just basic
>>>>>>>>> politeness and human decency.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Flibble is clueless, SkepDick seems mostly clueless, Richard is
>>>>>>>> only clueless on the most important points.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I am clueless then explain why my signaling decider answers
>>>>>>> the following correctly whilst your naive decider does not?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> void Px(void (*x)())
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>      (void) H(x, x);
>>>>>>>      return;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /Flibble
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your signalling decider is utterly useless until is explicitly
>>>>>> specifies every single detail of the criterion measure that it
>>>>>> uses to trigger the signal. My criterion measure says YES or NO
>>>>>> you would have to weaken my criterion measure to say I_DONT_KNOW
>>>>>> (aka pathological input).
>>>>>
>>>>> But it says that a Halting Computation is Non-Halting.
>>>>>
>>>>> At least Flibble's machine never gives a "wrong" answer, just it
>>>>> is a bit fuzzy what the "exception" case is.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't fuzzy: the exception is signaled when [Strachey
>>>> 1965] "Impossible Program" pathological input is detected.
>>>>
>>>> /Flibble
>>>>
>>>
>>> typedef void (*ptr)();
>>>
>>>
>>> int T(P)
>>> {
>>>   if (magic_happens_here1)
>>>     report_pathological_input();
>>>   else if (magic_happens_here2)
>>>     return 1;
>>>   return 0;
>>> }
>>>
>>> void Strachey_P()
>>> {
>>>   L: if (T(Strachey_P)) goto L;
>>>   return;
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> No more magic that you claim that you H corrected determines that the
>> correct simulation of its input is non-halting when it actually halts
>> if H reports this.
>>
>> Yes, your H can correctly determine that if H was just a pure
>> simulator, that the input would be non-halting, but that isn't the
>> question that the halt decider needs to decide.
>>
>> Since H isn't just a pure simulator, it needs to decide on if H does
>> what it does, is this input non-halting.
>>
>> Since when H(P,P) returns 0, that makes P(P) halting, that isn't the
>> correct answer. DEFINITION.
>
> It's hard to keep track of these things but I think Olcott has stopped
> posting on comp.lang.c++ and he has plinked you in this newsgroup so
> can't see your replies, so I wouldn't waste your time pointing out his
> errors.
>
> /Flibble
>

But he might see my replies when someone replies to them, like you just did.

In some ways, I have little hope that Olcott will ever come to his
senses, but I want to make sure that no one falls for his errors, and to
provide ammo for others that he is still talking to in order to point
out his mistakes.

Re: P(P) halts because H(P,P) correctly determines that its input never halt

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 by: olcott - Sun, 17 Jul 2022 18:13 UTC

On 7/17/2022 1:05 PM, Jeff Barnett wrote:
> On 7/17/2022 3:28 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 19:32:53 +0200
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>>
>>> On 16/07/2022 17:33, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 7/16/22 11:10 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> This conclusively proves that H(P,P) correctly simulates its input
>>>>> and that that the behavior of the correctly simulated P is very
>>>>> different than the directly executed P(P).
>>>>
>>>> The you have just invaldated your proof as you P isn't defined
>>>> right.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry you wasted all those years on such a simple mistake.
>>>
>>> Richard, will you /please/ just give it a break?  The guy is a
>>> trisector.  His "proof" is bogus - he doesn't even have a clear idea
>>> of what he is trying to prove.  But he is obsessed about it, having
>>> spent far too much time and effort over the years, and he cannot
>>> admit to himself that it is fundamentally flawed.  Instead, he is
>>> looking for attention and posting more repetitively, more
>>> aggressively, and more often in places where many people have
>>> specifically asked him not to. He cannot refute your points but in
>>> his distorted mindset, he is convinced he is correct - therefore
>>> others who disagree must be technically incompetent, stupid, or
>>> malicious.
>>>
>>> Everyone here (in all three groups) knows /you/ understand the theory
>>> involved here.  Everyone knows Olcott is wrong.  Everyone who has any
>>> interest and knowledge on the topic, already knows /how/ he is wrong,
>>> why his ideas cannot work, and where to find real information about
>>> the halting problem.
>>>
>>> So nobody gains anything from these threads.  At the start, it might
>>> have been interesting or entertaining - that stage is long gone.  You
>>> and Olcott are going round in circles, writing nothing new.  Mr.
>>> Flibble is even worse, bringing his own equally (but differently)
>>> flawed ideas into the mix.
>>
>> How am I even worse? If you think my ideas are flawed then kindly point
>> out those flaws rather than just indulge in wand waving.
> That's a fair question and comment. But what about the rest of the
> message? Do you think David Brown is so off target that he can be ignored?

David Brown is very smart and has great knowledge of these things.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

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