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devel / comp.unix.shell / Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

SubjectAuthor
* OT: Career, programming advice neededOttavio Caruso
+* Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededDan Espen
|`- Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededKaz Kylheku
+- Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededHelmut Waitzmann
+* Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededJanis Papanagnou
|`* Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededSpiros Bousbouras
| `* Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededGeoff Clare
|  `- Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededSpiros Bousbouras
+* Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededSpiros Bousbouras
|`* Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededOttavio Caruso
| `- Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededSpiros Bousbouras
`- Re: OT: Career, programming advice neededJohn McCue

1
OT: Career, programming advice needed

<s46sus$um1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ottavio2...@yahoo.com (Ottavio Caruso)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: OT: Career, programming advice needed
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:51:06 +0100
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 by: Ottavio Caruso - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 10:51 UTC

Hi,

Off topic, but I hope you can help.

I have a modest entry-level Linux certification and I am studying
towards the LPI BSD Specialist one. I have abandoned any hopes of having
a career in IT but I am looking to learn some more skills for myself.

I know that certifications are useless and I have lost interest for
Linux but gained more interest in traditional Unix, BSD and one day, why
not, Solaris.

My final goal would be, one day, understanding the C language and being
able to fix bugs, but I find it intimidating.

My question is, and please do not hesitate to be brutal in your honesty:
does shell programming help with understanding C or is it apples vs
oranges?

I am fascinated with Unix mini-languages, such as awk, sed + you could
say csh/ksh/bash are languages by themselves, but I wonder if I should
learn C first or not.

If my question sounds confused, it's because I am.

Thanks

--
Ottavio Caruso

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

<s470l6$s7j$1@dont-email.me>

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From: dan1es...@gmail.com (Dan Espen)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2021 07:54:14 -0400
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 by: Dan Espen - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:54 UTC

Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> writes:

> Hi,
>
> Off topic, but I hope you can help.
>
> I have a modest entry-level Linux certification and I am studying
> towards the LPI BSD Specialist one. I have abandoned any hopes of
> having a career in IT but I am looking to learn some more skills for
> myself.
>
> I know that certifications are useless and I have lost interest for
> Linux but gained more interest in traditional Unix, BSD and one day,
> why not, Solaris.
>
> My final goal would be, one day, understanding the C language and
> being able to fix bugs, but I find it intimidating.
>
> My question is, and please do not hesitate to be brutal in your
> honesty: does shell programming help with understanding C or is it
> apples vs oranges?
>
> I am fascinated with Unix mini-languages, such as awk, sed + you could
> say csh/ksh/bash are languages by themselves, but I wonder if I should
> learn C first or not.
>
> If my question sounds confused, it's because I am.

C and Perl have a similar syntax.

The syntax of a language is not the biggest barrier to
developing programming skills. The biggest barrier is
being able to think abstractly.

--
Dan Espen

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

<831rbsvpvp.fsf@helmutwaitzmann.news.arcor.de>

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From: nn.throt...@xoxy.net (Helmut Waitzmann)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
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 by: Helmut Waitzmann - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 12:21 UTC

Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com>:

>My final goal would be, one day, understanding the C language and
>being able to fix bugs, but I find it intimidating.
>
>My question is, and please do not hesitate to be brutal in your
>honesty: does shell programming help with understanding C or is it
>apples vs oranges?

I think, it's the other way round:  Having programmed some small
application (C or some other language) programs that make use of the
system calls helps using the shell. 

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

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From: janis_pa...@hotmail.com (Janis Papanagnou)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
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 by: Janis Papanagnou - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 13:13 UTC

On 02.04.2021 12:51, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Off topic, but I hope you can help.
>
> I have a modest entry-level Linux certification and I am studying
> towards the LPI BSD Specialist one. I have abandoned any hopes of having
> a career in IT but I am looking to learn some more skills for myself.

Certifications and educations an as specialist usually have a specific
narrow focus. The main practical question for me would be; where do I
want go, and what do I need to reach there. (All other answers below
should always be seen from your personal context and goals.)

> I know that certifications are useless and I have lost interest for
> Linux but gained more interest in traditional Unix, BSD and one day, why
> not, Solaris.

Switching from Linux to an AT&T (say "System V") or to a BSD view is
probably not that sensible. You may want to know about the contemporary
development and focus there, or learn about the two historic Unix
families, their differences/commonalities, how they merge and develop
in the POSIX standard.

Considering that and what you write below about programming, studying
Richard Steven's "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" might
be one path to take to get deeper insights in the Unix OS family. The
examples there are written in 'C', the synergy effect might be useful.

> My final goal would be, one day, understanding the C language and being
> able to fix bugs, but I find it intimidating.

To be honest, I don't consider 'C' to be in *any* way a good choice
to start learning programming with. (My view here is that 'C' is an
excellent abstraction of assembler languages.) I would start with any
high level language, preferable with clear concepts implemented. (And
here you will certainly ask, which ones are those. That would go too
far OT for this newsgroup.)

But I'm biased towards the advantages (or even necessities) of having
a fundamental understanding of programming. If that's a central area
you have in mind to fix bugs in 'C' sources then of course you should
focus on a good 'C' textbook.

> My question is, and please do not hesitate to be brutal in your honesty:
> does shell programming help with understanding C or is it apples vs
> oranges?

Not really, or to be more "brutal", not at all. These two languages
have a different abstraction level, to start, also different syntax,
and different concepts. Even standard control constructs like 'while'
(just to name a common element of programming languages), work very
differently.

If you want to learn 'C' - but remember my comments about the proper
language choice - and also about your actual goals - get a modern
textbook (and also ignore historic "K&R" unless you plan to work in
contexts where this style is still prevalent).

> I am fascinated with Unix mini-languages, such as awk, sed + you could
> say csh/ksh/bash are languages by themselves, but I wonder if I should
> learn C first or not.

'C' is syntactically a base for a couple languages, so syntax-wise it
might help to approach this family of languages and tools. But these
"mini-languages" have a very narrow application area. To learn things
a "general purpose language" would probably be better to understand
the concepts. But picking up one of those, like C++ - which is a very
complex language, specifically the newer standards of the language -
might not help you if you want to fix 'C'-source based bugs.

Awk is very easy to learn; you can do that anyway. Sed's unique
advantages are few, and its syntax is cryptic; IMO not worth the time
in your case. Shells are a specific thing and very different from 'C'.
Learning them requires an own effort, much experience, and sources to
learn that language(s) that are reliable - a big issue in times where
there are so many sources of [bad] lectures available online.

The application area of Shell languages is quite limited, the common
base of them quite limited (and extensions non-portable).

> If my question sounds confused, it's because I am.

Since there's a good chance that my notes confused you further, feel
free to ask for explanations (or further suggestions).

Janis

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

<20210402075157.480@kylheku.com>

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From: 563-365-...@kylheku.com (Kaz Kylheku)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2021 14:54:41 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Kaz Kylheku - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 14:54 UTC

On 2021-04-02, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> The syntax of a language is not the biggest barrier to
> developing programming skills. The biggest barrier is
> being able to think abstractly.

The syntax of a language is only the biggest barrier in getting a forum
of compiler people to talk about anything else, like data-flow analysis
or code generation.

--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

<i7yboPyHg2rosmuj@bongo-ra.co>

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
Message-ID: <i7yboPyHg2rosmuj@bongo-ra.co>
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 15:53 UTC

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 15:13:30 +0200
Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 02.04.2021 12:51, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> > I know that certifications are useless and I have lost interest for
> > Linux but gained more interest in traditional Unix, BSD and one day, why
> > not, Solaris.
>
> Switching from Linux to an AT&T (say "System V") or to a BSD view is
> probably not that sensible. You may want to know about the contemporary
> development and focus there, or learn about the two historic Unix
> families, their differences/commonalities, how they merge and develop
> in the POSIX standard.
>
> Considering that and what you write below about programming, studying
> Richard Steven's "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" might
> be one path to take to get deeper insights in the Unix OS family. The
> examples there are written in 'C', the synergy effect might be useful.

Just to be clear , APUE will only be useful to someone who is already very
comfortable with C. There is also the newer "The Linux programming interface:
A Linux and UNIX system programming handbook" by Michael Kerrisk.

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 16:18 UTC

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 11:51:06 +0100
Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Off topic, but I hope you can help.
>
> I have a modest entry-level Linux certification and I am studying
> towards the LPI BSD Specialist one. I have abandoned any hopes of having
> a career in IT but I am looking to learn some more skills for myself.

What do you want the skills for ? You say below that you want to fix bugs in
C code. What else ? Is it for example for intellectual stimulation ? Is there
specific code by other people you want to understand ? Are you trying to
become more efficient in your day to day usage of the computer ?

> I know that certifications are useless and I have lost interest for
> Linux but gained more interest in traditional Unix, BSD and one day, why
> not, Solaris.
>
> My final goal would be, one day, understanding the C language and being
> able to fix bugs, but I find it intimidating.

I believe in grabbing the bull by the horns. So , if you find C intimidating
, I say start with C ! comp.lang.c is a very good place to ask questions. So
, start reading some C textbook and , every time you run into difficulties ,
ask there.

> My question is, and please do not hesitate to be brutal in your honesty:
> does shell programming help with understanding C or is it apples vs
> oranges?

No , shell won't help with C , they are totally different languages.
Nonetheless , on many occasions I have used Unix basic tools (shells , sed ,
awk , etc.) to write tests for C code or occasionally implement in an
alternative manner what some C function was doing for comparison reasons
(again for testing).

> I am fascinated with Unix mini-languages, such as awk, sed + you could
> say csh/ksh/bash are languages by themselves, but I wonder if I should
> learn C first or not.

This mostly is a matter of mood and what you are hoping to do with either.
But learning one won't help much with the other.

> If my question sounds confused, it's because I am.

You need to be clear regarding what you are hoping to achieve by learning
whatever it is you're thinking of learning.

--
Wouldn't it be cool if we had a TLD .mob for organised crime related websites ?

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

<s47pfo$3sr$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ottavio2...@yahoo.com (Ottavio Caruso)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
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 by: Ottavio Caruso - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 18:57 UTC

On 02/04/2021 17:18, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

>
> What do you want the skills for ?

My immediate goals at the moment are:

1) being able to troubleshoot why some pkgsrc [1] packages don't build
on Linux. This involves either looking in the source code of the
upstream application or fixing the makefile(s). Incidentally, makefile
is a mini language in itself and that adds a layer of complication.

2) Patch some ham radio abandonware (languages: various, mainly C and
port them to pkgsrc)

3) Port Linux-only applications to pkgsrc.

> You say below that you want to fix bugs in
> C code. What else ? Is it for example for intellectual stimulation ? Is there
> specific code by other people you want to understand ? Are you trying to
> become more efficient in your day to day usage of the computer ?

As above.

> I believe in grabbing the bull by the horns. So , if you find C intimidating
> , I say start with C ! comp.lang.c is a very good place to ask questions. So
> , start reading some C textbook and , every time you run into difficulties ,
> ask there.

I'll surely give a look into that. Thanks.

[1] http://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/current/pkgsrc/doc/pkgsrc.html

--
Ottavio Caruso

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

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Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
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 by: John McCue - Fri, 2 Apr 2021 22:40 UTC

Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Off topic, but I hope you can help.
>
> I have a modest entry-level Linux certification and I am studying
> towards the LPI BSD Specialist one. I have abandoned any hopes of having
> a career in IT but I am looking to learn some more skills for myself.

If you think you would like being in IT, then you should
keep trying and not give up. Better to do what you like
than what you would not like.

<snip>

> My final goal would be, one day, understanding the C language and being
> able to fix bugs, but I find it intimidating.

> My question is, and please do not hesitate to be brutal in your honesty:
> does shell programming help with understanding C or is it apples vs
> oranges?

No, but it should help with learning how to program. One
needs to start somewhere.

> I am fascinated with Unix mini-languages, such as awk, sed + you could
> say csh/ksh/bash are languages by themselves, but I wonder if I should
> learn C first or not.

Learning c is a great goal, and in reality it is a rather
easy language. The hardest part is pointers. But will
learning this help you start a career in IT ? There are
many paths in IT.

>
> If my question sounds confused, it's because I am.
>
> Thanks

HTH

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Sat, 3 Apr 2021 00:24 UTC

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 19:57:59 +0100
Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 02/04/2021 17:18, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>
> >
> > What do you want the skills for ?
>
> My immediate goals at the moment are:
>
> 1) being able to troubleshoot why some pkgsrc [1] packages don't build
> on Linux. This involves either looking in the source code of the
> upstream application or fixing the makefile(s). Incidentally, makefile
> is a mini language in itself and that adds a layer of complication.

Yes , there are books on make. pkgsrc also has very large documentation.

> 2) Patch some ham radio abandonware (languages: various, mainly C and
> port them to pkgsrc)
>
> 3) Port Linux-only applications to pkgsrc.

You don't say for 1) and 3) in what language(s) the applications are written
but , assuming that the majority over 1) , 2) , 3) are in C then C is the way
to go. You won't gain anything by waiting and there are no intermediate
steps which are likely to be very useful.

[...]

> [1] http://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/current/pkgsrc/doc/pkgsrc.html

--
The sense of hopeless isolation Carpenter is able to convey despite the church being
in L.A. is yet another impressive accomplishment in a film that never fails to
impress.
www.imdb.com/review/rw2289126

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

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From: geo...@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid (Geoff Clare)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:29:12 +0100
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 by: Geoff Clare - Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:29 UTC

Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 15:13:30 +0200
> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Richard Steven's "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" might
>> be one path to take to get deeper insights in the Unix OS family. The
>> examples there are written in 'C', the synergy effect might be useful.
>
> Just to be clear , APUE will only be useful to someone who is already very
> comfortable with C. There is also the newer "The Linux programming interface:
> A Linux and UNIX system programming handbook" by Michael Kerrisk.

Sounds like you are not aware of the 3rd edition of APUE, published
in 2013.

www.apuebook.com/about3e.html

This is newer than TLPI (which the publisher nostarch.com lists as 2010).

--
Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>

Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed

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From: spi...@gmail.com (Spiros Bousbouras)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell
Subject: Re: OT: Career, programming advice needed
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 by: Spiros Bousbouras - Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:15 UTC

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 13:29:12 +0100
Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> wrote:
> Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 15:13:30 +0200
> > Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Richard Steven's "Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment" might
> >> be one path to take to get deeper insights in the Unix OS family. The
> >> examples there are written in 'C', the synergy effect might be useful.
> >
> > Just to be clear , APUE will only be useful to someone who is already very
> > comfortable with C. There is also the newer "The Linux programming interface:
> > A Linux and UNIX system programming handbook" by Michael Kerrisk.
>
> Sounds like you are not aware of the 3rd edition of APUE, published
> in 2013.
>
> www.apuebook.com/about3e.html
>
> This is newer than TLPI (which the publisher nostarch.com lists as 2010).

I was aware of the 3rd edition but not that it's newer than TLPI and I didn't
check before posting. But I will say for No Starch that they also sell their
books in PDF form with no DRM which is convenient for a book of this size.

--
Mathematics insult #234 : Are you a man or a functor ?

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