Not finding any NGs relating to Knoppix I decided to try here.
I occasionally used Knoppix Ver 8.6.1 which I have on a 16 GB USB stick
for over a year with no problems I decided to upgrade to Ver 9.1 just
to keep current.

So I downloaded a copy from their site and cleaned and formatted the
stick as fat 32, I then installed Ver 9.1 on the same stick using Rufus
3.1.8, it installed no problem.

But when I ran it the start menu and right click context menu were
filled with rubbish like scribbling, no readable text, the rest off the
desktop looked fine including the icons and taskbar.

So seeing this I downloaded another copy from a different site,
installed it and got the same results, So thinking Rufus maybe had a
problem I reformatted and did the stick with BalenaEtcher, same thing no
text in menus.

Next tries were on 2 new 32GB sticks using Rufus and BalenaEtcher, they
all gave the same results, No Text menus just garble.

So I wiped the original stick again and made the install with Ver 8.6.1
ad Rufus all worked fine, Then I did it again using BalenaEtcher and
again 8.6.1 works fine.

This leaves me slightly perplexed I conclude a few things

1: Rufus is not the problem
2: BalenaEtcher is not the problem
3: the 3 USB drives are not the problem
4: the machine is not the problem

So that leaves Knoppix as the only possible culprit even after trying 2
different downloads from their site mirrors.

Anyone see any other things I am missing?
If I don't solve this I will be happy with Ver 8.6.1 which works fine
for my occasion use.

Rene

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> I decided to upgrade to  Ver 9.1 just to keep current.

I haven't yet tested 9.1 which was released '21 Feb, but there is also a
9.2 released '22 Feb, but I don't find it on the mirrors.

Since the 9.1 is available via DW torrent, I'll dl that one and put it
on a Ventoy stick later today.

> KNOPPIX 9.2 in the german Linux Magazine and Linux-User (DELUG edition) 2021/04

--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter wrote:
> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> I decided to upgrade to  Ver 9.1 just to keep current.
>
> I haven't yet tested 9.1 which was released '21 Feb, but there is also a
> 9.2 released '22 Feb, but I don't find it on the mirrors.
>
> Since the 9.1 is available via DW torrent, I'll dl that one and put it
> on a Ventoy stick later today.
>
The torrent situation didn't work out - no seeds, but I got 9.1

I took a couple of 'buntu/s off a Ventoy to make room for the 4.4G
Knoppix DVD.

Historically I've used Win to dl, hashcheck, authenticate and write
..iso/s to usb using either rufus, balena, or Yumi, but I've switched to
doing it w/ linux. I always hashcheck, almost always authenticate. I
mostly do multiboot for which I now prefer a Ventoy stick over Yumi.
When I want to use persistence, I use mkusb.

My first attempt to boot Knoppix 9.1 off the Ventoy failed, so I deleted
it and wrote/copied it again. I got the same error:

error: overflow is detected
error: File (ndo.1)/KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso is not bootable.
chain empty failed

I had previously done a hashcheck on the .iso I dl/ed which passed.
Then next I did a hashcheck on the .iso I had written on the Ventoy
stick, which sha256 did NOT check; so I wrote the knoppix a THIRD time.

I'll finish this report a little later.

--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter wrote:
> so I wrote the knoppix a THIRD time.
>
> I'll finish this report a little later.

The 3rd time I wrote knoppix to ventoy usb it again failed the hashcheck
and I tried to boot it anyway, but it failed w/ the same error msg.

The ventoy site says that 9.1 has 1 reports of booting as legacy and the
same report of not booting as UEFI.

--
Mike Easter

On 4/30/22 12:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> Not finding any NGs relating to Knoppix I decided to try here.
> I occasionally used Knoppix Ver 8.6.1 which I have on a 16 GB USB
> stick for over a year with no problems I decided to upgrade to Ver 9.1
> just to keep current.
>
> So I downloaded a copy from their site and cleaned and formatted the
> stick as fat 32, I then installed Ver 9.1 on the same stick using
> Rufus 3.1.8, it installed no problem.
>
> But when I ran it the start menu and right click context menu were
> filled with rubbish like scribbling, no readable text, the rest off
> the desktop looked fine including the icons and taskbar.
>
> So seeing this I downloaded another copy  from a different site,
> installed it and got the same results, So thinking Rufus maybe had a
> problem I reformatted and did the stick with BalenaEtcher, same thing
> no text in menus.
>
> Next tries were on 2 new 32GB sticks using Rufus and BalenaEtcher,
> they all gave the same results, No Text menus just garble.
>
> So I wiped the original stick again and made the install with Ver
> 8.6.1 ad Rufus all worked fine, Then I did it again using BalenaEtcher
> and again 8.6.1 works fine.
>
> This leaves me slightly perplexed  I conclude a few things
>
> 1: Rufus is not the problem
> 2: BalenaEtcher is not the problem
> 3: the 3 USB drives are not the problem
> 4: the machine is not the problem
>
> So that leaves Knoppix as the only possible culprit even after trying
> 2 different downloads from their site mirrors.
>
> Anyone see any other things I am missing?
> If I don't solve this I will be happy with Ver 8.6.1 which works fine
> for my occasion use.
>
> Rene
>
>
Stay with 8.6.1 and be happy it works.

On 2022-04-30 3:06 p.m., Nic wrote:
> On 4/30/22 12:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>> Not finding any NGs relating to Knoppix I decided to try here.
>> I occasionally used Knoppix Ver 8.6.1 which I have on a 16 GB USB
>> stick for over a year with no problems I decided to upgrade to Ver 9.1
>> just to keep current.
>>
>> So I downloaded a copy from their site and cleaned and formatted the
>> stick as fat 32, I then installed Ver 9.1 on the same stick using
>> Rufus 3.1.8, it installed no problem.
>>
>> But when I ran it the start menu and right click context menu were
>> filled with rubbish like scribbling, no readable text, the rest off
>> the desktop looked fine including the icons and taskbar.
>>
>> So seeing this I downloaded another copy  from a different site,
>> installed it and got the same results, So thinking Rufus maybe had a
>> problem I reformatted and did the stick with BalenaEtcher, same thing
>> no text in menus.
>>
>> Next tries were on 2 new 32GB sticks using Rufus and BalenaEtcher,
>> they all gave the same results, No Text menus just garble.
>>
>> So I wiped the original stick again and made the install with Ver
>> 8.6.1 ad Rufus all worked fine, Then I did it again using BalenaEtcher
>> and again 8.6.1 works fine.
>>
>> This leaves me slightly perplexed  I conclude a few things
>>
>> 1: Rufus is not the problem
>> 2: BalenaEtcher is not the problem
>> 3: the 3 USB drives are not the problem
>> 4: the machine is not the problem
>>
>> So that leaves Knoppix as the only possible culprit even after trying
>> 2 different downloads from their site mirrors.
>>
>> Anyone see any other things I am missing?
>> If I don't solve this I will be happy with Ver 8.6.1 which works fine
>> for my occasion use.
>>
>> Rene
>>
>>
> Stay with 8.6.1 and be happy it works.
>

Yes Nic, I will stay with 8.6.1,

But for the hell of it I just tried it one more time.
This time I went to Major Geeks who are very reliable, that sent me to
Sonic where I downloaded the English 9.1 version.
I installed it on a 64GB Sandisk stick using Balena, it installs
fine, no problem.
BUT when I boot into it it boots fine also, but the same garbled text as
all my other attempts.

Rene

On 4/30/22 4:54 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 3:06 p.m., Nic wrote:
>> On 4/30/22 12:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>> Not finding any NGs relating to Knoppix I decided to try here.
>>> I occasionally used Knoppix Ver 8.6.1 which I have on a 16 GB USB
>>> stick for over a year with no problems I decided to upgrade to Ver
>>> 9.1 just to keep current.
>>>
>>> So I downloaded a copy from their site and cleaned and formatted the
>>> stick as fat 32, I then installed Ver 9.1 on the same stick using
>>> Rufus 3.1.8, it installed no problem.
>>>
>>> But when I ran it the start menu and right click context menu were
>>> filled with rubbish like scribbling, no readable text, the rest off
>>> the desktop looked fine including the icons and taskbar.
>>>
>>> So seeing this I downloaded another copy  from a different site,
>>> installed it and got the same results, So thinking Rufus maybe had a
>>> problem I reformatted and did the stick with BalenaEtcher, same
>>> thing no text in menus.
>>>
>>> Next tries were on 2 new 32GB sticks using Rufus and BalenaEtcher,
>>> they all gave the same results, No Text menus just garble.
>>>
>>> So I wiped the original stick again and made the install with Ver
>>> 8.6.1 ad Rufus all worked fine, Then I did it again using
>>> BalenaEtcher and again 8.6.1 works fine.
>>>
>>> This leaves me slightly perplexed  I conclude a few things
>>>
>>> 1: Rufus is not the problem
>>> 2: BalenaEtcher is not the problem
>>> 3: the 3 USB drives are not the problem
>>> 4: the machine is not the problem
>>>
>>> So that leaves Knoppix as the only possible culprit even after
>>> trying 2 different downloads from their site mirrors.
>>>
>>> Anyone see any other things I am missing?
>>> If I don't solve this I will be happy with Ver 8.6.1 which works
>>> fine for my occasion use.
>>>
>>> Rene
>>>
>>>
>> Stay with 8.6.1 and be happy it works.
>>
>
> Yes Nic, I will stay with 8.6.1,
>
> But for the hell of it I just tried it one more time.
> This time I went to Major Geeks who are very reliable, that sent me to
> Sonic where I downloaded the English 9.1 version.
>  I installed it on a 64GB Sandisk stick using  Balena, it installs
> fine, no problem.
> BUT when I boot into it it boots fine also, but the same garbled text
> as all my other attempts.
>
> Rene
>
Was it Einstein that said something about the insane look for different
results over and over, may I be one who sends you compliments for the
fact that you are typing your thoughts and experiences in this digital
world and I hope that we can rise above the instruments we use to be
heard /acknowledged for what does it matter when you realize your place
in the community on this rock.

Mike Easter wrote:
> error: File (ndo.1)/KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso is not bootable.

New report on non-bootability:

Rufus 3.18.1877 (portable)

This image is either non-bootable or it uses a boot or compression
method that is not supported by Rufus.

Knoppix suggests using its own tool, such as would be found in the
knoppix 8.6 to write the 9.1 to usb, flash-knoppix

Knoppix page on booting suggests using dd, Etcher, or flash-knoppix.
https://www.knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix900-en.html

Etcher reports 'It looks like this is not a bootable image. The image
does not appear to contain a partition table and might not be recognized
or bootable by your device.'

--
Mike Easter

On 2022-04-30 4:58 p.m., Mike Easter wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> error: File (ndo.1)/KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso is not bootable.
>
> New report on non-bootability:
>
> Rufus 3.18.1877 (portable)
>
> This image is either non-bootable or it uses a boot or compression
> method that is not supported by Rufus.
>
> Knoppix suggests using its own tool, such as would be found in the
> knoppix 8.6 to write the 9.1 to usb, flash-knoppix
>
> Knoppix page on booting suggests using dd, Etcher, or flash-knoppix.
> https://www.knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix900-en.html
>
> Etcher reports 'It looks like this is not a bootable image. The image
> does not appear to contain a partition table and might not be recognized
> or bootable by your device.'
>

I' beginning to think 9.1 might be a dud, yet it flashes and boots OK on
my system but won't do Text.

Rene

Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> I' beginning to think 9.1 might be a dud, yet it flashes and boots OK on
> my system but won't do Text.

I'm going to go back to the beginning, dl from another mirror, check its
hash (also compare the alternate site's hash w/ the one I got before)
and see what rufus and etcher say about the 'new' .iso.

--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter wrote:
> I'm going to go back to the beginning, dl from another mirror, check its
> hash (also compare the alternate site's hash w/ the one I got before)
> and see what rufus and etcher say about the 'new' .iso.

Knoppix 9.1 .iso has the same hash as previously. I wrote it to a 16G
usb which had been formatted by Rufus whose formats I like, and I wrote
it w/ Etcher in Win.

It successfully booted into a graphical desktop of LXDE kernel 5.10.20,
283 megs used to desktop.

As one might imagine from the 4.4G filesize, it has a LOT of app/s
available.

--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter wrote:
> Knoppix 9.1 .iso has the same hash as previously. I wrote it to a 16G
> usb which had been formatted by Rufus whose formats I like, and I wrote
> it w/ Etcher in Win.
>
> It successfully booted into a graphical desktop of LXDE kernel 5.10.20,
> 283 megs used to desktop.

Now that I have this all sorted out and have a good (proven) .iso, I
wrote it to the Ventoy stick I tried before and it boots fine there too.

Writing/Copying to the Ventoy stick is *MUCH* faster than writing to USB
w/ Etcher and makes more efficient use of USB space and sticks.

It is a little disconcerting when the hashcheck method of checking the
veracity of the dl doesn't actually work properly. In the case of
Knoppix, the authentication is also based on the hash, which method I
prefer over the authentication being based on the .iso, because the
little hash filesize goes/autheticates much faster than a big fat .iso.

Logically it seems that some kind of human misinterpretation (on my end)
would be more likely than an .iso w/ a good hash being 'bad', but
figuring all that out is beyond my paygrade. I'm just going to leave it
at 'something was wrong and now it isn't'.

My good dl came from a .de site; my bad dl from a .us site. Twice.
Twice good hash check from .us site. And at no time did the DW torrent
work at all.

--
Mike Easter

On Sun, 1 May 2022 03:42:11 -0700
Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> wrote:

> Mike Easter wrote:
> > Knoppix 9.1 .iso has the same hash as previously. I wrote it to a 16G
> > usb which had been formatted by Rufus whose formats I like, and I wrote
> > it w/ Etcher in Win.
> >
> > It successfully booted into a graphical desktop of LXDE kernel 5.10.20,
> > 283 megs used to desktop.
>
> Now that I have this all sorted out and have a good (proven) .iso, I
> wrote it to the Ventoy stick I tried before and it boots fine there too.
>
> Writing/Copying to the Ventoy stick is *MUCH* faster than writing to USB
> w/ Etcher and makes more efficient use of USB space and sticks.
>
> It is a little disconcerting when the hashcheck method of checking the
> veracity of the dl doesn't actually work properly. In the case of
> Knoppix, the authentication is also based on the hash, which method I
> prefer over the authentication being based on the .iso, because the
> little hash filesize goes/autheticates much faster than a big fat .iso.
>
> Logically it seems that some kind of human misinterpretation (on my end)
> would be more likely than an .iso w/ a good hash being 'bad', but
> figuring all that out is beyond my paygrade. I'm just going to leave it
> at 'something was wrong and now it isn't'.
>
> My good dl came from a .de site; my bad dl from a .us site. Twice.
> Twice good hash check from .us site. And at no time did the DW torrent
> work at all.
>
> --
> Mike Easter

I haf been watching this thread and decided to check which version of knoppix I had been using.
KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso
I installed this to a DVD and a flash drive in June 2021.
I have never had a problem booting from either.
Strange.

Alan

--
Mint 20.3, kernel 5.4.0-104-generic, Cinnamon 5.2.7
running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 16GB of DRAM.

On 4/30/2022 4:54 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 3:06 p.m., Nic wrote:
>> On 4/30/22 12:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>>> Not finding any NGs relating to Knoppix I decided to try here.
>>> I occasionally used Knoppix Ver 8.6.1 which I have on a 16 GB USB stick for over a year with no problems I decided to upgrade to Ver 9.1 just to keep current.
>>>
>>> So I downloaded a copy from their site and cleaned and formatted the stick as fat 32, I then installed Ver 9.1 on the same stick using Rufus 3.1.8, it installed no problem.
>>>
>>> But when I ran it the start menu and right click context menu were filled with rubbish like scribbling, no readable text, the rest off the desktop looked fine including the icons and taskbar.
>>>
>>> So seeing this I downloaded another copy  from a different site, installed it and got the same results, So thinking Rufus maybe had a problem I reformatted and did the stick with BalenaEtcher, same thing no text in menus.
>>>
>>> Next tries were on 2 new 32GB sticks using Rufus and BalenaEtcher, they all gave the same results, No Text menus just garble.
>>>
>>> So I wiped the original stick again and made the install with Ver 8.6.1 ad Rufus all worked fine, Then I did it again using BalenaEtcher and again 8.6.1 works fine.
>>>
>>> This leaves me slightly perplexed  I conclude a few things
>>>
>>> 1: Rufus is not the problem
>>> 2: BalenaEtcher is not the problem
>>> 3: the 3 USB drives are not the problem
>>> 4: the machine is not the problem
>>>
>>> So that leaves Knoppix as the only possible culprit even after trying 2 different downloads from their site mirrors.
>>>
>>> Anyone see any other things I am missing?
>>> If I don't solve this I will be happy with Ver 8.6.1 which works fine for my occasion use.
>>>
>>> Rene
>>>
>>>
>> Stay with 8.6.1 and be happy it works.
>>
>
> Yes Nic, I will stay with 8.6.1,
>
> But for the hell of it I just tried it one more time.
> This time I went to Major Geeks who are very reliable, that sent me to Sonic where I downloaded the English 9.1 version.
>  I installed it on a 64GB Sandisk stick using  Balena, it installs fine, no problem.
> BUT when I boot into it it boots fine also, but the same garbled text as all my other attempts.
>
> Rene
>

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/NG1GZ2zv/Kmoppix-32bit-text-test.gif

Test Results:

Boot in UEFI mode (let the machine do what it wants with the DVD),
caused the boot process to hang with the underline cursor (fixed not
blink) at two inches down and two inches from the left of screen.
On other distros, this would be roughly the time that "Insecure Boot"
would be printed on the screen, but it did not even get that far.

Boot in Legacy Mode (via popup boot selection), then typing "knoppix"
(which causes 32 bit boot), gives the results in the picture.

I did not test Boot in Legacy Mode with "knoppix64" on the boot line.

In the picture, is "top" running in Terminator, and LibreOffice
Writer was used to try a few fonts in a Writer document.

*******

The release is using way way too much Compiz :-)

It's possible something is broken because of it.

*******

Tested on 6-core Intel with NVidia graphics.

Paul

On 5/1/2022 9:20 AM, Paul wrote:

> [Picture]
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/NG1GZ2zv/Kmoppix-32bit-text-test.gif
>
> Test Results:
>
> Boot in UEFI mode (let the machine do what it wants with the DVD),
> caused the boot process to hang with the underline cursor (fixed not
> blink) at two inches down and two inches from the left of screen.
> On other distros, this would be roughly the time that "Insecure Boot"
> would be printed on the screen, but it did not even get that far.
>
> Boot in Legacy Mode (via popup boot selection), then typing "knoppix"
> (which causes 32 bit boot), gives the results in the picture.
>
> I did not test Boot in Legacy Mode with "knoppix64" on the boot line.
>
> In the picture, is "top" running in Terminator, and LibreOffice
> Writer was used to try a few fonts in a Writer document.
>
> *******
>
> The release is using way way too much Compiz :-)
>
> It's possible something is broken because of it.
>
> *******
>
> Tested on 6-core Intel with NVidia graphics.
>
>    Paul

The evidence of 32-bit mode, was that "top" only
shows a 4GB memory present, when the machine has
more than 4GB of memory. My assumption is that typing
"knoppix" instead of "knoppix64" still gives
32 bit versus 64 bit operation.

Paul

On 01/05/2022 12:49, pinnerite wrote:

> I haf been watching this thread and decided to check which version of knoppix I had been using.
> KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso
> I installed this to a DVD and a flash drive in June 2021.
> I have never had a problem booting from either.
> Strange.

+1

IIRC I used dd to put the image on to a USB stick.

David in Co Longford

pinnerite wrote:
> I haf been watching this thread and decided to check which version of knoppix I had been using.
> KNOPPIX_V9.1DVD-2021-01-25-EN.iso
> I installed this to a DVD and a flash drive in June 2021.

Knop 9.1 was released '21 Feb. 9.2 has been released more recently to a
more limited audience.

> I have never had a problem booting from either.

I believe that RL and I have had two completely different problems. I
don't know the answer to what his was. Mine came about because I wanted
to see if I could figure out his problem, and experienced my own
completely different problem. A coincidence as it were.

I dl/ed the .iso and checked its hash which was good. Problems. I re
dl/ed the same .iso from the same mirror and checked its hash which was
good. Same problems.

Next I dl/ed the .iso from a different mirror and checked its hash which
was good and the same as the other 2 hashchecks. That .iso was fine.
Go figger.

> Strange.

My experience was unusual for me. I've had problems booting .iso/s on
USB before, but never one just like that.

--
Mike Easter

Paul wrote:
> The evidence of 32-bit mode, was that "top" only
> shows a 4GB memory present, when the machine has
> more than 4GB of memory. My assumption is that typing
> "knoppix" instead of "knoppix64" still gives
> 32 bit versus 64 bit operation.

If I use knoppix64 instead of default boot, it boots the 64 bit kernel,
but inxi -S report still says bits 32 (and kernel 64). I haven't
figured that out yet.

But booting knoppix64 shows my ram OK, whether from inxi or top.
Knoppix wants to use 4G of an 8G system for swap in a live usb boot.

--
Mike Easter

Mike Easter wrote:
> It successfully booted into a graphical desktop of LXDE kernel 5.10.20,
> 283 megs used to desktop.

Another feature of knoppix is that it can boot into LXDE, Gnome, or KDE
from the boot command. Interestingly to me, because I'm interested in
the wide range of ram used to the desktop by KDE which is 'all over the
map' depending on the distro; KDE Neon typically being the lowest.

Knoppix is now the new prize winner; free -m shows 332 meg used. That
is more than 15-20% lower than the typical XFCE. More is confusing
there; that is about 15-20% lower than the typical XFCE.

--
Mike Easter

On 5/1/22 3:57 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>> It successfully booted into a graphical desktop of LXDE kernel
>> 5.10.20, 283 megs used to desktop.
>
> Another feature of knoppix is that it can boot into LXDE, Gnome, or
> KDE from the boot command.  Interestingly to me, because I'm
> interested in the wide range of ram used to the desktop by KDE which
> is 'all over the map' depending on the distro; KDE Neon typically
> being the lowest.
>
> Knoppix is now the new prize winner; free -m shows 332 meg used. That
> is more than 15-20% lower than the typical XFCE.  More is confusing
> there; that is about 15-20% lower than the typical XFCE.
>
There is a question I have for you Mike, if we can get beyond this
knotty Knoppix problem, how familiar are you with Ubuntu? What I am
wondering is Mint some fork of Ubuntu and is Ubuntu the the Linux
version that will survive the Linux os wars?

Nic wrote:
> There is a question I have for you Mike, if we can get beyond this
> knotty Knoppix problem,

I'm past my own transient Knoppix .iso problem; I'm just twiddling w/ it
now that I have it around.

> how familiar are you with Ubuntu?

If you mean the 'flagship' Ub, I'm not a gnome fan, so I'm more likely
to boot some KDE than some gnome. My daily driver is Mint Cinnamon, and
there isn't even an official Ub Cinnamon, unlike there being an official
Ub Mate, which is a little bit of a puzzle.

> What I am wondering is Mint some fork of Ubuntu
I find the term 'fork' somewhat ambiguous here. Linux Mint is a
'derivative' of Ubuntu in that it uses the repo/s of Ub. But in
contrast to Ub, none of its flavors are Gnome, but Cinnamon and Mate and
XFCE. LM rejects some of Ub's other decisions, such as the Snap biz in
favor of flatpak and LM brings some of its own Mint niceties to its distro.

Also don't forget that there is also LM Debian Edition, the cinnamon DE
based on Debian instead of Ub.

Both Ubuntu repo basis and Debian repo basis bring a lot to the table.

> and is Ubuntu the the Linux version that will survive the Linux os
> wars?

I don't know if you would call the varieties of linux distro/s a 'war';
perhaps a 'competition' of ideas in the open source world.

What keeps a distro from being a 'survivor' is not enough dev support
for a particular distro. Canonical and Ubuntu are actually striving for
commercial success such as RedHat has achieved, whereas most linux dev
is something else.

I believe you are 'thinking about' desktop linux as opposed to linux
generically. The broader concept of linux is already immensely
successful all over the place; whereas desktop linux is of interest to
the 'linux faithful' and it has been evolving and evolving over the
years; and it will continue to similarly evolve and Ubuntu will be
surviving and evolving right along.

--
Mike Easter

On 5/1/22 4:31 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Nic wrote:
>> There is a question I have for you Mike, if we can get beyond this
>> knotty Knoppix problem,
>
> I'm past my own transient Knoppix .iso problem; I'm just twiddling w/
> it now that I have it around.
>
>> how familiar are you with Ubuntu?
>
> If you mean the 'flagship' Ub, I'm not a gnome fan, so I'm more likely
> to boot some KDE than some gnome.  My daily driver is Mint Cinnamon,
> and there isn't even an official Ub Cinnamon, unlike there being an
> official Ub Mate, which is a little bit of a puzzle.
>
>> What I am wondering is Mint some fork of Ubuntu
> I find the term 'fork' somewhat ambiguous here.  Linux Mint is a
> 'derivative' of Ubuntu in that it uses the repo/s of Ub.  But in
> contrast to Ub, none of its flavors are Gnome, but Cinnamon and Mate
> and XFCE.  LM rejects some of Ub's other decisions, such as the Snap
> biz in favor of flatpak and LM brings some of its own Mint niceties to
> its distro.
>
> Also don't forget that there is also LM Debian Edition, the cinnamon
> DE based on Debian instead of Ub.
>
> Both Ubuntu repo basis and Debian repo basis bring a lot to the table.
>
>> and is Ubuntu the the Linux version that will survive the Linux os
>> wars?
>
> I don't know if you would call the varieties of linux distro/s a
> 'war'; perhaps a 'competition' of ideas in the open source world.
>
> What keeps a distro from being a 'survivor' is not enough dev support
> for a particular distro.  Canonical and Ubuntu are actually striving
> for commercial success such as RedHat has achieved, whereas most linux
> dev is something else.
>
> I believe you are 'thinking about' desktop linux as opposed to linux
> generically.  The broader concept of linux is already immensely
> successful all over the place; whereas desktop linux is of interest to
> the 'linux faithful' and it has been evolving and evolving over the
> years; and it will continue to similarly evolve and Ubuntu will be
> surviving and evolving right along.
>
>
>
Thank you, that was a lot of information. I guess I have to bone up to
learning what a gnome versus some KDE means. My desktop really enjoys LM
Cinnamon, they say a picture is worth a thousand words,  think of it  a
graph that shows the human hours devoted to Linux in general and
especially to Mint.

Thank You Linus

Nic wrote:
> Thank you, that was a lot of information. I guess I have to bone up
> to learning what a gnome versus some KDE means.

There are several main 'streams' of linux distro/s, Slackware, Debian,
and RedHat and then there are also independent dev/s. Ubuntu is a
derivative of Debian, but it has its own repo/s; whereas Mint is a
derivative of Ubuntu and adds Mint repo/s to Ub's.

There is a somewhat mind-blowing huge graphic showing the linux distro
tree in the wp:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Linux_Distribution_Timeline_21_10_2021.svg

But, that is not the DE desktop environment picture, which is a very
important element. The wp article on DEs isn't nearly as elaborate as
that of the above tree:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Popular_free_desktop_environments.svg/1024px-Popular_free_desktop_environments.svg.png

The wp article on DEs also covers those other than linux.

> My desktop really enjoys LM Cinnamon, they say a picture is worth a
> thousand words, think of it a graph that shows the human hours
> devoted to Linux in general and especially to Mint.

The business of how easily one may achieve a particular desktop w/ a
particular distro's repo/s is quite variable. That is, I like to boot
live .iso/s. With desktop Fedora, a RedHat product, I only get Gnome.

Here's another example; q4OS, in which I get a choice of 2 different
kinds of KDE. That dev likes what he has created from an older KDE 3.5
which is now called Trinity which he bases an older Qt toolkit which is
forked to TQT trinityQt.

Those are definitely forks; KDE fork and Qt toolkit fork; which forks he
continues to dev support.

That dev bases his distro on Debian; and besides the TDE desktop, he
also provides a current KDE desktop which is based on KDE 5, way past
3.5, which is based on Qt 5.

The advantage of the ongoing dev of the older toolkit and older KDE is
that it is very light in resource usage; whereas the current KDE is more
modern but uses more resources.

--
Mike Easter

On 5/1/22 5:21 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> Nic wrote:
>> Thank you, that was a lot of information. I guess I have to bone up
>> to learning what a gnome versus some KDE means.
>
> There are several main 'streams' of linux distro/s, Slackware, Debian,
> and RedHat and then there are also independent dev/s.  Ubuntu is a
> derivative of Debian, but it has its own repo/s; whereas Mint is a
> derivative of Ubuntu and adds Mint repo/s to Ub's.
>
> There is a somewhat mind-blowing huge graphic showing the linux distro
> tree in the wp:
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Linux_Distribution_Timeline_21_10_2021.svg
>
>
> But, that is not the DE desktop environment picture, which is a very
> important element.  The wp article on DEs isn't nearly as elaborate as
> that of the above tree:
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Popular_free_desktop_environments.svg/1024px-Popular_free_desktop_environments.svg.png
>
>
> The wp article on DEs also covers those other than linux.
>
>> My desktop really enjoys LM Cinnamon, they say a picture is worth a
>> thousand words,  think of it  a graph that shows the human hours
>> devoted to Linux in general and especially to Mint.
>
> The business of how easily one may achieve a particular desktop w/ a
> particular distro's repo/s is quite variable.  That is, I like to boot
> live .iso/s.  With desktop Fedora, a RedHat product, I only get Gnome.
>
> Here's another example; q4OS, in which I get a choice of 2 different
> kinds of KDE.  That dev likes what he has created from an older KDE
> 3.5 which is now called Trinity which he bases an older Qt toolkit
> which is forked to TQT trinityQt.
>
> Those are definitely forks; KDE fork and Qt toolkit fork; which forks
> he continues to dev support.
>
> That dev bases his distro on Debian; and besides the TDE desktop, he
> also provides a current KDE desktop which is based on KDE 5, way past
> 3.5, which is based on Qt 5.
>
> The advantage of the ongoing dev of the older toolkit and older KDE is
> that it is very light in resource usage; whereas the current KDE is
> more modern but uses more resources.
>
>
re: "a somewhat mind-blowing huge graphic showing the linux distro tree"
you put it mildly, I did a print preview in FF and printed to pdf, it
took longer to print than most jobs. The only minor thing that I would
suggest to the authors would be to append an "D" at the far right to
indicate it has a DE DesktopEnvironment for which most of us would be
interested in at this forum. Being a curious one I d/l a Fedora and a
Debian LD to add to me Ventoy:-) Thanks for raising my awareness of Linux.

On 2022-05-02 2:32 p.m., Nic wrote:
> On 5/1/22 5:21 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
>> Nic wrote:
>>> Thank you, that was a lot of information. I guess I have to bone up
>>> to learning what a gnome versus some KDE means.
>>
>> There are several main 'streams' of linux distro/s, Slackware, Debian,
>> and RedHat and then there are also independent dev/s.  Ubuntu is a
>> derivative of Debian, but it has its own repo/s; whereas Mint is a
>> derivative of Ubuntu and adds Mint repo/s to Ub's.
>>
>> There is a somewhat mind-blowing huge graphic showing the linux distro
>> tree in the wp:
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Linux_Distribution_Timeline_21_10_2021.svg
>>
>>
>> But, that is not the DE desktop environment picture, which is a very
>> important element.  The wp article on DEs isn't nearly as elaborate as
>> that of the above tree:
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Popular_free_desktop_environments.svg/1024px-Popular_free_desktop_environments.svg.png
>>
>>
>> The wp article on DEs also covers those other than linux.
>>
>>> My desktop really enjoys LM Cinnamon, they say a picture is worth a
>>> thousand words,  think of it  a graph that shows the human hours
>>> devoted to Linux in general and especially to Mint.
>>
>> The business of how easily one may achieve a particular desktop w/ a
>> particular distro's repo/s is quite variable.  That is, I like to boot
>> live .iso/s.  With desktop Fedora, a RedHat product, I only get Gnome.
>>
>> Here's another example; q4OS, in which I get a choice of 2 different
>> kinds of KDE.  That dev likes what he has created from an older KDE
>> 3.5 which is now called Trinity which he bases an older Qt toolkit
>> which is forked to TQT trinityQt.
>>
>> Those are definitely forks; KDE fork and Qt toolkit fork; which forks
>> he continues to dev support.
>>
>> That dev bases his distro on Debian; and besides the TDE desktop, he
>> also provides a current KDE desktop which is based on KDE 5, way past
>> 3.5, which is based on Qt 5.
>>
>> The advantage of the ongoing dev of the older toolkit and older KDE is
>> that it is very light in resource usage; whereas the current KDE is
>> more modern but uses more resources.
>>
>>
> re: "a somewhat mind-blowing huge graphic showing the linux distro tree"
> you put it mildly, I did a print preview in FF and printed to pdf, it
> took longer to print than most jobs. The only minor thing that I would
> suggest to the authors would be to append an "D" at the far right to
> indicate it has a DE DesktopEnvironment for which most of us would be
> interested in at this forum. Being a curious one I d/l a Fedora and a
> Debian LD to add to me Ventoy:-) Thanks for raising my awareness of Linux.
>

*That* is a master work of Art and Dedication to say the least!

Rene