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devel / comp.theory / On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)

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* On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)olcott
`- On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)Dennis Bush

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On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Subject: On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)
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 by: olcott - Thu, 28 Jul 2022 23:01 UTC

On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)
> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 7:46:22 PM UTC+1, olcott wrote:
>>
>> In other words you disagree that the following x86 emulation
>> of the input to H(P,P) meets this criterion measure:
>> The criterion measure for a simulating halt decider (SHD)
>> When the correct partial x86 emulation of the input matches
>> a non-halting behavior pattern such that it correctly determines
>> that a complete emulation of the input would never stop
>> running, or reach its “ret” instruction then the SHD
>> aborts its emulation and correctly returns 0.
>>
>> #include <stdint.h>
>> #define u32 uint32_t
>> void P(u32 x)
>> {
>> if (H(x, x))
>>   HERE: goto HERE;
>> return;
>> }
>>
>> int main()
>> {
>>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
>> }
>>
>> _P()
>> [00001352](01) 55         push ebp
>> [00001353](02) 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00001355](03) 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00001358](01) 50 push    eax           // push P
>> [00001359](03) 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [0000135c](01) 51         push ecx      // push P
>> [0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> [00001362](03) 83c408     add esp,+08
>> [00001365](02) 85c0       test eax,eax
>> [00001367](02) 7402       jz 0000136b
>> [00001369](02) ebfe       jmp 00001369
>> [0000136b](01) 5d         pop ebp
>> [0000136c](01) c3         ret
>> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
>>
>> _main()
>> [00001372](01) 55         push ebp
>> [00001373](02) 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00001375](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137a](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137f](05) e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> [00001384](03) 83c408     add esp,+08
>> [00001387](01) 50         push eax
>> [00001388](05) 6823040000 push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
>> [0000138d](05) e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
>> [00001392](03) 83c408     add esp,+08
>> [00001395](02) 33c0       xor eax,eax
>> [00001397](01) 5d         pop ebp
>> [00001398](01) c3         ret
>> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
>>

>> machine    stack     stack     machine   assembly
>> address    address   data      code      language
>>  ========  ========  ========  ========= =============
>> [00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55         push ebp
>> [00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
>> [0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
>> // H emulates the first seven instructions of P
>> [00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55         push ebp // enter P
>> [00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push    eax // push P
>> [00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push    ecx // push P
>> [0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>>
>> // The emulated H emulates the first seven instructions of P
>> [00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55         push ebp // enter P
>> [00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
>> [00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50         push eax // push P
>> [00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
>> [0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push    ecx // push P
>> [0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>
>> It is completely obvious that when H(P,P) correctly
>> emulates its input that it must emulate the first seven
>> instructions of P. Because the seventh instruction of P
>> repeats this process we can know with complete certainty
>> that the emulated P never reaches its final “ret”
>> instruction, thus never halts.
>
> *Yes, it is clear to us humans watching it that the program*
> *is repeating itself. Thus we can appreciate that it will*
> *never reach the final "ret" - indeed, it won't even get to*
> *the infinite loop identified above*

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)

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Subject: Re: On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)
From: dbush.mo...@gmail.com (Dennis Bush)
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 by: Dennis Bush - Thu, 28 Jul 2022 23:13 UTC

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 7:01:39 PM UTC-4, olcott wrote:
> On 6/14/2022 6:47 AM, Paul N wrote: (in comp.c++)
> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 7:46:22 PM UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> >>
> >> In other words you disagree that the following x86 emulation
> >> of the input to H(P,P) meets this criterion measure:
> >> The criterion measure for a simulating halt decider (SHD)
> >> When the correct partial x86 emulation of the input matches
> >> a non-halting behavior pattern such that it correctly determines
> >> that a complete emulation of the input would never stop
> >> running, or reach its “ret” instruction then the SHD
> >> aborts its emulation and correctly returns 0.
> >>
> >> #include <stdint.h>
> >> #define u32 uint32_t
> >> void P(u32 x)
> >> {
> >> if (H(x, x))
> >> HERE: goto HERE;
> >> return;
> >> }
> >>
> >> int main()
> >> {
> >> Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)P, (u32)P));
> >> }
> >>
> >> _P()
> >> [00001352](01) 55 push ebp
> >> [00001353](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >> [00001355](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> >> [00001358](01) 50 push eax // push P
> >> [00001359](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> >> [0000135c](01) 51 push ecx // push P
> >> [0000135d](05) e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> >> [00001362](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> >> [00001365](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
> >> [00001367](02) 7402 jz 0000136b
> >> [00001369](02) ebfe jmp 00001369
> >> [0000136b](01) 5d pop ebp
> >> [0000136c](01) c3 ret
> >> Size in bytes:(0027) [0000136c]
> >>
> >> _main()
> >> [00001372](01) 55 push ebp
> >> [00001373](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >> [00001375](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> >> [0000137a](05) 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> >> [0000137f](05) e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
> >> [00001384](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> >> [00001387](01) 50 push eax
> >> [00001388](05) 6823040000 push 00000423 // "Input_Halts = "
> >> [0000138d](05) e8e0f0ffff call 00000472 // call Output
> >> [00001392](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
> >> [00001395](02) 33c0 xor eax,eax
> >> [00001397](01) 5d pop ebp
> >> [00001398](01) c3 ret
> >> Size in bytes:(0039) [00001398]
> >>
>
> >> machine stack stack machine assembly
> >> address address data code language
> >> ======== ======== ======== ========= =============
> >> [00001372][0010229e][00000000] 55 push ebp
> >> [00001373][0010229e][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >> [00001375][0010229a][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> >> [0000137a][00102296][00001352] 6852130000 push 00001352 // push P
> >> [0000137f][00102292][00001384] e81efeffff call 000011a2 // call H
> >>
> >> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:212352
> >> // H emulates the first seven instructions of P
> >> [00001352][0021233e][00212342] 55 push ebp // enter P
> >> [00001353][0021233e][00212342] 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >> [00001355][0021233e][00212342] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> >> [00001358][0021233a][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
> >> [00001359][0021233a][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> >> [0000135c][00212336][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
> >> [0000135d][00212332][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> >>
> >> // The emulated H emulates the first seven instructions of P
> >> [00001352][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 55 push ebp // enter P
> >> [00001353][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8bec mov ebp,esp
> >> [00001355][0025cd66][0025cd6a] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
> >> [00001358][0025cd62][00001352] 50 push eax // push P
> >> [00001359][0025cd62][00001352] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> >> [0000135c][0025cd5e][00001352] 51 push ecx // push P
> >> [0000135d][0025cd5a][00001362] e840feffff call 000011a2 // call H
> >> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
> >>
> >> It is completely obvious that when H(P,P) correctly
> >> emulates its input that it must emulate the first seven
> >> instructions of P. Because the seventh instruction of P
> >> repeats this process we can know with complete certainty
> >> that the emulated P never reaches its final “ret”
> >> instruction, thus never halts.
> >
> > *Yes, it is clear to us humans watching it that the program*
> > *is repeating itself. Thus we can appreciate that it will*
> > *never reach the final "ret" - indeed, it won't even get to*
> > *the infinite loop identified above*

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 12:38:27 PM UTC-4, Paul N wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:13:42 PM UTC+1, olcott wrote:
> > (3) With no control flow instructions in P
> > With no control flow instructions in P
> > With no control flow instructions in P
> > With no control flow instructions in P
> > With no control flow instructions in P
> >
> > preceding its invocation of
> > H(P,P) that could possibly escape repeated simulations.
> > There is nothing in P that would stop its infinitely recursive simulation.
> >
> > There is nothing in P that would stop its infinitely recursive simulation.
> >
> > There is nothing in P that would stop its infinitely recursive simulation.
> >
> > There is nothing in P that would stop its infinitely recursive simulation.
> But you have said that H can spot that it is going round in circles, and so the simulation *is* stopped.
>
> You seem to think that this doesn't really happen, and that the "actual behaviour" of P(P) is that it goes round and round forever, even as you admit that when P(P) is executed, it halts.

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