On 2023-02-06 16:06, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 21:24:14 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/5/23 2:51 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:14:13 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/5/23 1:41 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-02-05 22:24, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Last time I used windows regularly was win95.  It was OK.  Then I
>>>>>> switched to slackware (always use the system your live-in help does).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I meant a "normal" computer :-D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Linux, obviously.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me, yes, although I sometimes have to use Windows. Both are similar
>>>>> in the user interface: double click icons, mouse, etc. A "normal
>>>>> computer" in this context is a desktop computer, a laptop, running whatever.
>>>>
>>>> Something with a real keyboard -- one we can use with our eyes closed
>>>> most of he time;
>>>
>>> *You* can. Not me. I never learned to touch type.
>>
>> It was a requirement in jr. high. Everybody had to learn to type.
>> Everybody had to take shop. Everybody had to take home ec.
>
> I'm 85, probably significantly older than you. When I was in school,
> girls leaned to type, boys took shop.

Not here, but one of the teachers (philosophy) dictated the lesson of
the day for us to write down. The next day she would pick some one and
ask the lesson (yes, in high school). My handwriting when going fast is
terrible, so I decided to type every "lesson", each day, at home. My
father taught me which was the proper way to do it, what finger on what
letter. So by the end of the year, I had learned. Almost. Not enough for
a secretarial job, but pretty fast. Nice skill to have for a programmer.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:35:19 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>> I'm 85, probably significantly older than you. When I was in school,
>> girls leaned to type, boys took shop.
>
>Not here, but one of the teachers (philosophy) dictated the lesson of
>the day for us to write down. The next day she would pick some one and
>ask the lesson (yes, in high school). My handwriting when going fast is
>terrible, so I decided to type every "lesson", each day, at home. My
>father taught me which was the proper way to do it, what finger on what
>letter. So by the end of the year, I had learned. Almost.

Forty years or so I got Evelyn Woods typing training software and
practiced with it every day. After not too long, I gave up, because...

>Not enough for
>a secretarial job, but pretty fast.

...I could type pretty fast with my hunt and peck style of typing, and
practicing typing was eating two much of my free time. A secretary
needs to not look at the keyboard because she has to look at what her
boss wrote. I type from what's in my mind, so I don't have to look
anywhere but the keyboard, so what I do isn't great, but it works well
enough for me.

>Nice skill to have for a programmer.

Except for the last couple of years that I programmed, I didn't type
code, I wrote it down and gave it to a keypunch operator.

These days, when almost all programmers type their code on a terminal
or PC, speed is important, but being able to touch-type and not look
at the keyboard isn't, if you can type fast enough with a hunt and
peck style.

On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 08:21:01 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 21:18:59 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 2/5/23 2:48 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 13:24:29 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2/5/23 12:04 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-02-05 20:26, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On my Android phone (Pixel 4a) I have to slide it up. To me, that's
>>>>>> very counterintuituve. I couldn't figure out how to do it until
>>>>>> someone here (Vanguard, I think) told me how.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thinking later, I see that it is better, can't happen by accident, as
>>>>> can happen to a push button.
>>>>
>>>>Indeed. I somehow accidentally paused my Ski Tracks app for 4 or 5 runs
>>>>the other day, probably missing the ACTUAL top speed I hit -- I hope. I
>>>>always blank the screen before putting it back in my pocket, so I don't
>>>>see how I could have accidentally hit the pause icon, but it happened.
>>>
>>> That sounds like a good idea. How do you blank the screen?
>>
>>Light press on the power button.
>
>Thanks. I'll try that.

I tried. It works in the sense that it blanks the screen without
powering off. How well it works with preventing the two problems I
often have (bluetooth turned off, airplane mode turned on) remains to
be seen.

On 6 Feb 2023 14:30:59 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:

>On 6 Feb 2023 at 07:49:59, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/5/23 11:07 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>>> A 'real' computer is a big mainframe - preferably running Linux.
>>
>> Our desktops are more powerful than the mainframes of the 60s. Some say
>> our phones are too.
>
>Yes, but check out a modern mainframe, that's where your bank account is.
>Over a trillion transactions per day.

I've been in several hundred data centers over the past 8 years,
belonging to financial institutions, insurance giants, law firms,
universities, governments (city, county, state, and federal), etc., and
I haven't seen a single mainframe anywhere. What I see are racks and
racks of small pizza box servers, about 1U to 4U, all front-ended by a
pair of redundant load balancers.

There could still be mainframes out there somewhere, but I haven't seen
them.

On 2023-02-06 19:07, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:35:19 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> I'm 85, probably significantly older than you. When I was in school,
>>> girls leaned to type, boys took shop.
>>
>> Not here, but one of the teachers (philosophy) dictated the lesson of
>> the day for us to write down. The next day she would pick some one and
>> ask the lesson (yes, in high school). My handwriting when going fast is
>> terrible, so I decided to type every "lesson", each day, at home. My
>> father taught me which was the proper way to do it, what finger on what
>> letter. So by the end of the year, I had learned. Almost.
>
> Forty years or so I got Evelyn Woods typing training software and
> practiced with it every day. After not too long, I gave up, because...
>
>
>> Not enough for
>> a secretarial job, but pretty fast.
>
> ..I could type pretty fast with my hunt and peck style of typing, and
> practicing typing was eating two much of my free time. A secretary
> needs to not look at the keyboard because she has to look at what her
> boss wrote. I type from what's in my mind, so I don't have to look
> anywhere but the keyboard, so what I do isn't great, but it works well
> enough for me.

I look at the screen and glance a bit at the keyboard. I can not read
somewhere else and type, albeit slowly and carefully. I would improve
with practice, of course, but I never had to do much of that. Not my job.

>
>
>> Nice skill to have for a programmer.
>
> Except for the last couple of years that I programmed, I didn't type
> code, I wrote it down and gave it to a keypunch operator.

:-D

Different era, mine :-D

>
> These days, when almost all programmers type their code on a terminal
> or PC, speed is important, but being able to touch-type and not look
> at the keyboard isn't, if you can type fast enough with a hunt and
> peck style.

It just helps a bit.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 6 Feb 2023 at 18:15:49, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2023 14:30:59 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6 Feb 2023 at 07:49:59, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/5/23 11:07 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>>>> A 'real' computer is a big mainframe - preferably running Linux.
>>>
>>> Our desktops are more powerful than the mainframes of the 60s. Some say
>>> our phones are too.
>>
>>Yes, but check out a modern mainframe, that's where your bank account is.
>>Over a trillion transactions per day.
>
> I've been in several hundred data centers over the past 8 years,
> belonging to financial institutions, insurance giants, law firms,
> universities, governments (city, county, state, and federal), etc., and
> I haven't seen a single mainframe anywhere. What I see are racks and
> racks of small pizza box servers, about 1U to 4U, all front-ended by a
> pair of redundant load balancers.
>
> There could still be mainframes out there somewhere, but I haven't seen
> them.

https://www.precisely.com/blog/mainframe/9-mainframe-statistics

On 7 Feb 2023 07:20:40 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:

>On 6 Feb 2023 at 18:15:49, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>> On 6 Feb 2023 14:30:59 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 6 Feb 2023 at 07:49:59, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/5/23 11:07 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>>>>> A 'real' computer is a big mainframe - preferably running Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Our desktops are more powerful than the mainframes of the 60s. Some say
>>>> our phones are too.
>>>
>>>Yes, but check out a modern mainframe, that's where your bank account is.
>>>Over a trillion transactions per day.
>>
>> I've been in several hundred data centers over the past 8 years,
>> belonging to financial institutions, insurance giants, law firms,
>> universities, governments (city, county, state, and federal), etc., and
>> I haven't seen a single mainframe anywhere. What I see are racks and
>> racks of small pizza box servers, about 1U to 4U, all front-ended by a
>> pair of redundant load balancers.
>>
>> There could still be mainframes out there somewhere, but I haven't seen
>> them.
>
>https://www.precisely.com/blog/mainframe/9-mainframe-statistics

Thanks. I checked out some Google images of the IBM Z mainframes and
nope, I've never seen any of those in my travels. I'll keep an eye out,
though.

On Tue, 07 Feb 2023 02:50:29 -0600, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On 7 Feb 2023 07:20:40 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6 Feb 2023 at 18:15:49, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 6 Feb 2023 14:30:59 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 6 Feb 2023 at 07:49:59, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/5/23 11:07 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>>>>>> A 'real' computer is a big mainframe - preferably running Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our desktops are more powerful than the mainframes of the 60s. Some say
>>>>> our phones are too.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, but check out a modern mainframe, that's where your bank account is.
>>>>Over a trillion transactions per day.
>>>
>>> I've been in several hundred data centers over the past 8 years,
>>> belonging to financial institutions, insurance giants, law firms,
>>> universities, governments (city, county, state, and federal), etc., and
>>> I haven't seen a single mainframe anywhere. What I see are racks and
>>> racks of small pizza box servers, about 1U to 4U, all front-ended by a
>>> pair of redundant load balancers.
>>>
>>> There could still be mainframes out there somewhere, but I haven't seen
>>> them.
>>
>>https://www.precisely.com/blog/mainframe/9-mainframe-statistics
>
>Thanks. I checked out some Google images of the IBM Z mainframes and
>nope, I've never seen any of those in my travels. I'll keep an eye out,
>though.

I'm so far out of date on mainframes that I've never even *heard of*
an IBM Z. The last IBM mainframe I saw was in the company I retired
from 30 years ago. One of the jobs I had there was managing the data
center.

Ken Blake wrote:

> Can mainframes run Linux?

Why do you think IBM bought RedHat?

On 2/6/23 9:35 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-02-06 16:06, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 21:24:14 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/5/23 2:51 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:14:13 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/5/23 1:41 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-02-05 22:24, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last time I used windows regularly was win95.  It was OK.  Then I
>>>>>>> switched to slackware (always use the system your live-in help does).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I meant a "normal" computer :-D
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Linux, obviously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me, yes, although I sometimes have to use Windows. Both are similar
>>>>>> in the user interface: double click icons, mouse, etc. A "normal
>>>>>> computer" in this context is a desktop computer, a laptop, running whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something with a real keyboard -- one we can use with our eyes closed
>>>>> most of he time;
>>>>
>>>> *You* can. Not me. I never learned to touch type.
>>>
>>> It was a requirement in jr. high. Everybody had to learn to type.
>>> Everybody had to take shop. Everybody had to take home ec.
>>
>> I'm 85, probably significantly older than you. When I was in school,
>> girls leaned to type, boys took shop.
>
> Not here, but one of the teachers (philosophy) dictated the lesson of
> the day for us to write down. The next day she would pick some one and
> ask the lesson (yes, in high school). My handwriting when going fast is
> terrible, so I decided to type every "lesson", each day, at home. My
> father taught me which was the proper way to do it, what finger on what
> letter. So by the end of the year, I had learned. Almost. Not enough for
> a secretarial job, but pretty fast. Nice skill to have for a programmer.

I find it disturbing that every job I've had (except the first ones
selling stuff at Bullock's and Sears when I was 16) I got because I
could type well. I ended up doing lots of other stuff, but it was an
essential basic skill for people (women, actually) with no particular
bent. I wanted to be a scientist until I realized that math was required.

How many people have secretaries, or even a group secretary, any more?

--
Cheers, Bev
Salesmen welcome -- dog food is expensive

On 2/6/23 10:07 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 18:35:19 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> I'm 85, probably significantly older than you. When I was in school,
>>> girls leaned to type, boys took shop.

That's the way it worked out when we got to choose a second quarter.
Sewing was included in the home ec class, otherwise it would have been a
total waste. I wish I'd taken auto shop.

I had to teach my 13-YO grandspawn how to use a saw.

>>Not here, but one of the teachers (philosophy) dictated the lesson of
>>the day for us to write down. The next day she would pick some one and
>>ask the lesson (yes, in high school). My handwriting when going fast is
>>terrible, so I decided to type every "lesson", each day, at home. My
>>father taught me which was the proper way to do it, what finger on what
>>letter. So by the end of the year, I had learned. Almost.
>
> Forty years or so I got Evelyn Woods typing training software and
> practiced with it every day. After not too long, I gave up, because...
>
>>Not enough for
>>a secretarial job, but pretty fast.

Fastest typist in the class (120 wpm) was my friend the world-class
baton twirler. That used to actually be an athletic activity rather
than something that cute girls do.

> ..I could type pretty fast with my hunt and peck style of typing, and
> practicing typing was eating two much of my free time. A secretary
> needs to not look at the keyboard because she has to look at what her
> boss wrote. I type from what's in my mind, so I don't have to look
> anywhere but the keyboard, so what I do isn't great, but it works well
> enough for me.

Baby Son The Crack Programmer hunts+pecks really fast. I don't know how
he does it, but he doesn't look at the keyboard.

>>Nice skill to have for a programmer.
>
> Except for the last couple of years that I programmed, I didn't type
> code, I wrote it down and gave it to a keypunch operator.

I applied for a job like that once. I lied and said I knew how to make
drum cards. I ended up managing a contract at JPL :-(

> These days, when almost all programmers type their code on a terminal
> or PC, speed is important, but being able to touch-type and not look
> at the keyboard isn't, if you can type fast enough with a hunt and
> peck style.

People who can't touch-type can do 15 wpm. I learned this when I told
the girl who desperately needed the job that she could take the test as
many times as she wanted. I finally stopped her after the fifth one.

The smart secretary quit after a year because the job was so dull. We
hired a dumb one and taught her to type with a typing program. Worked
out much better.

--
Cheers, Bev
Salesmen welcome -- dog food is expensive

On 2/6/23 10:15 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2023 14:30:59 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6 Feb 2023 at 07:49:59, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/5/23 11:07 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>>>> A 'real' computer is a big mainframe - preferably running Linux.
>>>
>>> Our desktops are more powerful than the mainframes of the 60s. Some say
>>> our phones are too.
>>
>>Yes, but check out a modern mainframe, that's where your bank account is.
>>Over a trillion transactions per day.
>
> I've been in several hundred data centers over the past 8 years,
> belonging to financial institutions, insurance giants, law firms,
> universities, governments (city, county, state, and federal), etc., and
> I haven't seen a single mainframe anywhere. What I see are racks and
> racks of small pizza box servers, about 1U to 4U, all front-ended by a
> pair of redundant load balancers.
>
> There could still be mainframes out there somewhere, but I haven't seen
> them.

The 11-inch aluminum reels are a dead giveaway! Does anybody even make
greenbar any more?

--
Cheers, Bev
Salesmen welcome -- dog food is expensive

On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 11:01:36 -0800, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I find it disturbing that every job I've had (except the first ones
>selling stuff at Bullock's and Sears when I was 16) I got because I
>could type well. I ended up doing lots of other stuff, but it was an
>essential basic skill for people (women, actually) with no particular
>bent. I wanted to be a scientist until I realized that math was required.
>
>How many people have secretaries, or even a group secretary, any more?

It's not exactly the same thing, but there are still executive
assistants everywhere. That's probably the closest thing to what used to
be called secretaries, right?

On 7 Feb 2023 at 08:50:29, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
> On 7 Feb 2023 07:20:40 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>
>>On 6 Feb 2023 at 18:15:49, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 6 Feb 2023 14:30:59 GMT, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 6 Feb 2023 at 07:49:59, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/5/23 11:07 PM, Bob Martin wrote:
>>>>>> A 'real' computer is a big mainframe - preferably running Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our desktops are more powerful than the mainframes of the 60s. Some say
>>>>> our phones are too.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, but check out a modern mainframe, that's where your bank account is.
>>>>Over a trillion transactions per day.
>>>
>>> I've been in several hundred data centers over the past 8 years,
>>> belonging to financial institutions, insurance giants, law firms,
>>> universities, governments (city, county, state, and federal), etc., and
>>> I haven't seen a single mainframe anywhere. What I see are racks and
>>> racks of small pizza box servers, about 1U to 4U, all front-ended by a
>>> pair of redundant load balancers.
>>>
>>> There could still be mainframes out there somewhere, but I haven't seen
>>> them.
>>
>>https://www.precisely.com/blog/mainframe/9-mainframe-statistics
>
> Thanks. I checked out some Google images of the IBM Z mainframes and
> nope, I've never seen any of those in my travels. I'll keep an eye out,
> though.

Most of today's mainframes run in "dark rooms" : ie with all the lights out.
People only enter when some rare intervention is required.
This is to ensure security and reliability.
Hence very few people actually see a mainframe.

On 2023-02-07 20:01, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 2/6/23 9:35 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2023-02-06 16:06, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 21:24:14 -0800, The Real Bev
>>> <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/5/23 2:51 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 14:14:13 -0800, The Real Bev
>>>>> <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/5/23 1:41 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-02-05 22:24, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last time I used windows regularly was win95.  It was OK.  Then I
>>>>>>>> switched to slackware (always use the system your live-in help
>>>>>>>> does).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I meant a "normal" computer :-D
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Linux, obviously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For me, yes, although I sometimes have to use Windows. Both are
>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>> in the user interface: double click icons, mouse, etc. A "normal
>>>>>>> computer" in this context is a desktop computer, a laptop,
>>>>>>> running whatever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something with a real keyboard -- one we can use with our eyes closed
>>>>>> most of he time;
>>>>>
>>>>> *You* can. Not me. I never learned to touch type.
>>>>
>>>> It was a requirement in jr. high.  Everybody had to learn to type.
>>>> Everybody had to take shop.  Everybody had to take home ec.
>>>
>>> I'm 85, probably significantly older than you. When I was in school,
>>> girls leaned to type, boys took shop.
>>
>> Not here, but one of the teachers (philosophy) dictated the lesson of
>> the day for us to write down. The next day she would pick some one and
>> ask the lesson (yes, in high school). My handwriting when going fast is
>> terrible, so I decided to type every "lesson", each day, at home. My
>> father taught me which was the proper way to do it, what finger on what
>> letter. So by the end of the year, I had learned. Almost. Not enough for
>> a secretarial job, but pretty fast. Nice skill to have for a programmer.
>
> I find it disturbing that every job I've had (except the first ones
> selling stuff at Bullock's and Sears when I was 16) I got because I
> could type well.  I ended up doing lots of other stuff, but it was an
> essential basic skill for people (women, actually) with no particular
> bent.  I wanted to be a scientist until I realized that math was required.
>
> How many people have secretaries, or even a group secretary, any more?

We had a group secretary when I was at Lucent Technologies.

Then Lucent was practically dismantled, almost everybody fired. She was
asked to stay, but she refused. She said she did not want to stay when
so many friends had been fired, and that she could get a job anywhere,
unlike us, who were specialist of one thing or another. Good secretaries
can find jobs anywhere, she said, or we said. She was right.

I seem to recall that she had secretaries under her, she was that good.

--
Cheers, Carlos.