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Insufficient facts always invite danger. -- Spock, "Space Seed", stardate 3141.9

devel / comp.theory / Simulating halt deciders

SubjectAuthor
* Simulating halt decidersolcott
+* Simulating halt decidersMr Flibble
|`* Simulating halt decidersolcott
| `- Simulating halt decidersMr Flibble
`- Simulating halt decidersRichard Damon

1
Simulating halt deciders

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From: NoO...@NoWhere.com (olcott)
Subject: Simulating halt deciders
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 by: olcott - Thu, 18 Aug 2022 20:59 UTC

Simulating halt deciders correctly predict (in a finite number of steps)
that their complete and correct simulation of their input would never
terminate. They do this by matching elements of a set of infinite
behavior patterns:

(a) Infinite loop
(b) Infinite recursion
(c) Infinitely recursive simulation

-----------------------------------
void Infinite_Loop()
{ HERE: goto HERE;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H0((u32)Infinite_Loop));
}

_Infinite_Loop()
[00001102](01) 55 push ebp
[00001103](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00001105](02) ebfe jmp 00001105
[00001107](01) 5d pop ebp
[00001108](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0007) [00001108]
-----------------------------------
void Infinite_Recursion(int N)
{ Infinite_Recursion(N);
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)Infinite_Recursion, 0x777));
}

_Infinite_Recursion()
[000010f2](01) 55 push ebp
[000010f3](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[000010f5](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[000010f8](01) 50 push eax
[000010f9](05) e8f4ffffff call 000010f2
[000010fe](03) 83c404 add esp,+04
[00001101](01) 5d pop ebp
[00001102](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0017) [00001102]
-----------------------------------
void P(ptr x)
{ int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
if (Halt_Status)
HERE: goto HERE;
return;
}

int main()
{ Output("Input_Halts = ", H(P, P));
}

_P()
[00000fc2](01) 55 push ebp
[00000fc3](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
[00000fc5](01) 51 push ecx
[00000fc6](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08]
[00000fc9](01) 50 push eax
[00000fca](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08]
[00000fcd](01) 51 push ecx
[00000fce](05) e8bffeffff call 00000e92
[00000fd3](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
[00000fd6](03) 8945fc mov [ebp-04],eax
[00000fd9](04) 837dfc00 cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
[00000fdd](02) 7402 jz 00000fe1
[00000fdf](02) ebfe jmp 00000fdf
[00000fe1](02) 8be5 mov esp,ebp
[00000fe3](01) 5d pop ebp
[00000fe4](01) c3 ret
Size in bytes:(0035) [00000fe4]

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Simulating halt deciders

<20220818220626.00003689@reddwarf.jmc.corp>

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From: flib...@reddwarf.jmc.corp (Mr Flibble)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Simulating halt deciders
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 by: Mr Flibble - Thu, 18 Aug 2022 21:06 UTC

On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 15:59:43 -0500
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:

> Simulating halt deciders correctly predict (in a finite number of
> steps) that their complete and correct simulation of their input
> would never terminate. They do this by matching elements of a set of
> infinite behavior patterns:
>
> (a) Infinite loop
> (b) Infinite recursion
> (c) Infinitely recursive simulation

Nope. (c) only exists if you have fucked up the design of your SHD, as
you have.

/Flibble

Re: Simulating halt deciders

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 by: olcott - Thu, 18 Aug 2022 22:12 UTC

On 8/18/2022 4:06 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 15:59:43 -0500
> olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
>
>> Simulating halt deciders correctly predict (in a finite number of
>> steps) that their complete and correct simulation of their input
>> would never terminate. They do this by matching elements of a set of
>> infinite behavior patterns:
>>
>> (a) Infinite loop
>> (b) Infinite recursion
>> (c) Infinitely recursive simulation
>
> Nope. (c) only exists if you have fucked up the design of your SHD, as
> you have.
>
> /Flibble
>

You cannot coherently explain any mistake.

--
Copyright 2022 Pete Olcott

"Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
Genius hits a target no one else can see."
Arthur Schopenhauer

Re: Simulating halt deciders

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From: flib...@reddwarf.jmc.corp (Mr Flibble)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Simulating halt deciders
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 by: Mr Flibble - Thu, 18 Aug 2022 22:19 UTC

On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 17:12:05 -0500
olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:

> On 8/18/2022 4:06 PM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 15:59:43 -0500
> > olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Simulating halt deciders correctly predict (in a finite number of
> >> steps) that their complete and correct simulation of their input
> >> would never terminate. They do this by matching elements of a set
> >> of infinite behavior patterns:
> >>
> >> (a) Infinite loop
> >> (b) Infinite recursion
> >> (c) Infinitely recursive simulation
> >
> > Nope. (c) only exists if you have fucked up the design of your SHD,
> > as you have.
> >
> > /Flibble
> >
>
> You cannot coherently explain any mistake.

I have designed a SHD that doesn't rely on infinitely recursive
simulation so is able to give the correct answer as to whether the
input halts.

You have designed a SHD that does rely on infinitely recursive
simulation so is unable to give the correct answer as to whether the
input halts.

The above seems pretty coherent to me.

/Flibble

Re: Simulating halt deciders

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 by: Richard Damon - Thu, 18 Aug 2022 23:38 UTC

On 8/18/22 4:59 PM, olcott wrote:
> Simulating halt deciders correctly predict (in a finite number of steps)
> that their complete and correct simulation of their input would never
> terminate. They do this by matching elements of a set of infinite
> behavior patterns:
>
> (a) Infinite loop
> (b) Infinite recursion
> (c) Infinitely recursive simulation
>
> -----------------------------------
> void Infinite_Loop()
> {
>   HERE: goto HERE;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H0((u32)Infinite_Loop));
> }
>
> _Infinite_Loop()
> [00001102](01)  55         push ebp
> [00001103](02)  8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00001105](02)  ebfe       jmp 00001105
> [00001107](01)  5d         pop ebp
> [00001108](01)  c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0007) [00001108]
> -----------------------------------
> void Infinite_Recursion(int N)
> {
>   Infinite_Recursion(N);
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ", H((u32)Infinite_Recursion, 0x777));
> }
>
> _Infinite_Recursion()
> [000010f2](01)  55         push ebp
> [000010f3](02)  8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [000010f5](03)  8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [000010f8](01)  50         push eax
> [000010f9](05)  e8f4ffffff call 000010f2
> [000010fe](03)  83c404     add esp,+04
> [00001101](01)  5d         pop ebp
> [00001102](01)  c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0017) [00001102]
> -----------------------------------
> void P(ptr x)
> {
>   int Halt_Status = H(x, x);
>   if (Halt_Status)
>     HERE: goto HERE;
>   return;
> }
>
> int main()
> {
>   Output("Input_Halts = ",  H(P, P));
> }
>
> _P()
> [00000fc2](01)  55             push ebp
> [00000fc3](02)  8bec           mov ebp,esp
> [00000fc5](01)  51             push ecx
> [00000fc6](03)  8b4508         mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000fc9](01)  50             push eax
> [00000fca](03)  8b4d08         mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000fcd](01)  51             push ecx
> [00000fce](05)  e8bffeffff     call 00000e92
> [00000fd3](03)  83c408         add esp,+08
> [00000fd6](03)  8945fc         mov [ebp-04],eax
> [00000fd9](04)  837dfc00       cmp dword [ebp-04],+00
> [00000fdd](02)  7402           jz 00000fe1
> [00000fdf](02)  ebfe           jmp 00000fdf
> [00000fe1](02)  8be5           mov esp,ebp
> [00000fe3](01)  5d             pop ebp
> [00000fe4](01)  c3             ret
> Size in bytes:(0035) [00000fe4]
>

Except that P(P) doesn't actually match an infinite recursive simulation
pattern if H(P,P) aborts its simulation and returns 0.

The pattern you claim is incorrect.

FAIL.

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