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computers / alt.os.linux.suse / Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

SubjectAuthor
* UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesPaul R Schmidtbleicher
+* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesWilliam Unruh
|`* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesWilliam Unruh
| `- Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesCarlos E. R.
`* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drivesmarrgol
 `* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesPaul R Schmidtbleicher
  +- Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesCarlos E. R.
  `* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drivesmarrgol
   +- Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesPaul R Schmidtbleicher
   `* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesPaul R Schmidtbleicher
    `* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesWilliam Unruh
     `* Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesPaul R Schmidtbleicher
      `- Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash DrivesCarlos E.R.

1
UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

<j0pr6lFnaaiU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: pau...@foxinternet.net (Paul R Schmidtbleicher)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: 1 Dec 2021 17:54:30 GMT
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 by: Paul R Schmidtbleich - Wed, 1 Dec 2021 17:54 UTC

This may be an offbeat topic . . .

I move files between Tumbleweed Linux & Win 10 Desktops. I am aware of
the differences in Linux RealTimeClock set to UTC and Windows RTC set to
local time.

However, a file saved on the Linux operating system is appears to be
saved with a local time stamp. When saved to a flashdrive, it is saved
with a UTC (-8 for me). When transported to the Win 10 box it looked
like I worked on this file at c.3:00am) Linux operating system displays
the right time stamp, but adjusted by the operating system. On the
Flashdrive it is saved at UTC time.

QUESTION: Is there a way to set Dolphin (or whatever) to save a file on
an external drive at local time?

Paul

--
paulrs

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

<so8f31$rga$1@dont-email.me>

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From: unr...@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 18:32:01 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: William Unruh - Wed, 1 Dec 2021 18:32 UTC

On 2021-12-01, Paul R Schmidtbleicher <paulrs@foxinternet.net> wrote:
> This may be an offbeat topic . . .
>
> I move files between Tumbleweed Linux & Win 10 Desktops. I am aware of
> the differences in Linux RealTimeClock set to UTC and Windows RTC set to
> local time.
>
> However, a file saved on the Linux operating system is appears to be
> saved with a local time stamp. When saved to a flashdrive, it is saved

No, it is saved in UTC and your operating system interprets that into
localtime via /etc/localtime.

> with a UTC (-8 for me). When transported to the Win 10 box it looked
> like I worked on this file at c.3:00am) Linux operating system displays
> the right time stamp, but adjusted by the operating system. On the
> Flashdrive it is saved at UTC time.
>
> QUESTION: Is there a way to set Dolphin (or whatever) to save a file on
> an external drive at local time?

Why not setup windows to use UTC?
>
> Paul
>
>
>

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

<so8hhq$8fp$1@dont-email.me>

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From: unr...@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:14:02 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: William Unruh - Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:14 UTC

To expand, all times on a Linux system are UTC. All file tins/dates are
UTC. When programs like date, or ls -l deliver a user readable time to
the user, they send the UTC time to a subroutine, whichdetermines what
the relation between local time and UTC is and translate the UTC time to
localtime. Internally however, the system makes all comparisons etc with
UTC times not local times. Otherwise you could get problems. You hop on
a plane, fly over 2 timezones west and now the files would be out by 2
hrs into the future. Ie, it could find a bunch of files which all have a
time an hour or so in the future. The OS does NOT like that. It can
cause immense problems. Thus everything, except human reading, is in
UTC. If you take that usb stick and read it in Linux, the times
displayed will be the correct localtime since Linux will have translated
them from UTC to human time. If you read them on a Windows system set up
for localtime, it will read the times as localtime and they wil be out
by whatever the difference is between localtime and UTC.

Flying from Hawaii to Nauru for example you will find on Windows that
the files are all almost 24 hours in the future. Windows users will
probably just leave their timezone to Hawaii time zone, and put up with
it being 22 hours out. In Linux you just change the translation file
(/etc/localtime) using the files in /etc/zoneinfo to the appropiate
one, and everything will work.All times will be displayed in Nauru
times, and the system will keep using UTC.

On 2021-12-01, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-12-01, Paul R Schmidtbleicher <paulrs@foxinternet.net> wrote:
>> This may be an offbeat topic . . .
>>
>> I move files between Tumbleweed Linux & Win 10 Desktops. I am aware of
>> the differences in Linux RealTimeClock set to UTC and Windows RTC set to
>> local time.
>>
>> However, a file saved on the Linux operating system is appears to be
>> saved with a local time stamp. When saved to a flashdrive, it is saved
>
> No, it is saved in UTC and your operating system interprets that into
> localtime via /etc/localtime.
>
>> with a UTC (-8 for me). When transported to the Win 10 box it looked
>> like I worked on this file at c.3:00am) Linux operating system displays
>> the right time stamp, but adjusted by the operating system. On the
>> Flashdrive it is saved at UTC time.
>>
>> QUESTION: Is there a way to set Dolphin (or whatever) to save a file on
>> an external drive at local time?
>
> Why not setup windows to use UTC?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
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From: marr...@address.invalid (marrgol)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 22:28:04 +0100
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 by: marrgol - Wed, 1 Dec 2021 21:28 UTC

On 01/12/2021 at 18.54, Paul R Schmidtbleicher wrote:
> I move files between Tumbleweed Linux & Win 10 Desktops. I am aware of
> the differences in Linux RealTimeClock set to UTC and Windows RTC set to
> local time.
>
> However, a file saved on the Linux operating system is appears to be
> saved with a local time stamp. When saved to a flashdrive, it is saved
> with a UTC (-8 for me). When transported to the Win 10 box it looked
> like I worked on this file at c.3:00am) Linux operating system displays
> the right time stamp, but adjusted by the operating system. On the
> Flashdrive it is saved at UTC time.
>
> QUESTION: Is there a way to set Dolphin (or whatever) to save a file on
> an external drive at local time?
·
Yes, use 'time_offset=minutes' mount option when mounting a flashdrive.
I think it's time_offset=-480 in your case…

--
mrg

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:44:12 +0100
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Thu, 2 Dec 2021 10:44 UTC

On 01/12/2021 20.14, William Unruh wrote:
> To expand, all times on a Linux system are UTC. All file tins/dates are
> UTC. When programs like date, or ls -l deliver a user readable time to
> the user, they send the UTC time to a subroutine, whichdetermines what
> the relation between local time and UTC is and translate the UTC time to
> localtime. Internally however, the system makes all comparisons etc with
> UTC times not local times. Otherwise you could get problems. You hop on
> a plane, fly over 2 timezones west and now the files would be out by 2
> hrs into the future. Ie, it could find a bunch of files which all have a
> time an hour or so in the future. The OS does NOT like that. It can
> cause immense problems. Thus everything, except human reading, is in
> UTC. If you take that usb stick and read it in Linux, the times
> displayed will be the correct localtime since Linux will have translated
> them from UTC to human time. If you read them on a Windows system set up
> for localtime, it will read the times as localtime and they wil be out
> by whatever the difference is between localtime and UTC.
>
> Flying from Hawaii to Nauru for example you will find on Windows that
> the files are all almost 24 hours in the future. Windows users will
> probably just leave their timezone to Hawaii time zone, and put up with
> it being 22 hours out. In Linux you just change the translation file
> (/etc/localtime) using the files in /etc/zoneinfo to the appropiate
> one, and everything will work.All times will be displayed in Nauru
> times, and the system will keep using UTC.

Yes, but there is a caveat. If the USB stick is formatted with a Windows
filesystem like FAT, timestamps are local time. And this breaks things.
You have to play with mount options.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

<j0sjpdF8vcmU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: pau...@foxinternet.net (Paul R Schmidtbleicher)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: 2 Dec 2021 19:06:21 GMT
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 by: Paul R Schmidtbleich - Thu, 2 Dec 2021 19:06 UTC

On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 22:28:04 +0100, marrgol wrote:

Yes, use 'time_offset=minutes' mount option when mounting a flashdrive.
I think it's time_offset=-480 in your case…

OK, I used the following command:
<mount -o time_offset=-480 -t vfat /dev/sdc1 /mnt>
The flash drive is mounted on /mnt
The files saved under Win 10 at 12:08 local time (PST) still read 4:08am
I.E. No change
A file saved to this flashdrive at 10:58 PST reads on Win10 6:58pm
I.E. No change
Maybe I am doing this wrong??
Paul

--
paulrs

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E. R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 23:36:10 +0100
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 by: Carlos E. R. - Thu, 2 Dec 2021 22:36 UTC

On 02/12/2021 20.06, Paul R Schmidtbleicher wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 22:28:04 +0100, marrgol wrote:
>
>> Yes, use 'time_offset=minutes' mount option when mounting a flashdrive.
>> I think it's time_offset=-480 in your case…
>
> OK, I used the following command:
> <mount -o time_offset=-480 -t vfat /dev/sdc1 /mnt>
> The flash drive is mounted on /mnt
> The files saved under Win 10 at 12:08 local time (PST) still read 4:08am
> I.E. No change
> A file saved to this flashdrive at 10:58 PST reads on Win10 6:58pm
> I.E. No change
> Maybe I am doing this wrong??

Possibilities:

tz=UTC This option disables the conversion of timestamps
between local time (as used by Windows on FAT)
and UTC (which Linux uses internally). This is
particularly useful when mounting devices (like
digital cameras) that are set to UTC in order to
avoid the pitfalls of local time.

time_offset=minutes
Set offset for conversion of timestamps from
local time used by FAT to UTC. I.e., minutes
will be subtracted from each timestamp to convert
it to UTC used internally by Linux. This is use-
ful when the time zone set in the kernel via set-
timeofday(2) is not the time zone used by the
filesystem. Note that this option still does not
provide correct time stamps in all cases in pres-
ence of DST - time stamps in a different DST set-
ting will be off by one hour.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
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 by: marrgol - Thu, 2 Dec 2021 23:51 UTC

On 02/12/2021 at 20.06, Paul R Schmidtbleicher wrote:
> Yes, use 'time_offset=minutes' mount option when mounting a flashdrive.
> I think it's time_offset=-480 in your case…
>
> OK, I used the following command:
> <mount -o time_offset=-480 -t vfat /dev/sdc1 /mnt>
> The flash drive is mounted on /mnt
> The files saved under Win 10 at 12:08 local time (PST) still read 4:08am
> I.E. No change
> A file saved to this flashdrive at 10:58 PST reads on Win10 6:58pm
> I.E. No change
> Maybe I am doing this wrong??

Don't know, works for me just fine… Here's exactly how I tested it:
I made sure Windows (8.1 as I don't have 10 available at this
moment) timezone is set to '(UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada)'
and the time is set correctly. Then I mounted a flashdrive, created
a file named z.txt and safely removed the drive. This was at 15:40
(3:40pm) PST. Then I opened a terminal window in linux and did this
(as root):

~ # # I made sure here I was working in the PST timezone too:
~ # export TZ='America/Los_Angeles'
~ # date +"%Z %z"
PST -0800
~ # date
Thu Dec 2 15:40:55 PST 2021
~ # # I mounted the flashdisk with time_offset:
~ # mount -t vfat -o time_offset=-480 /dev/sdg1 /mnt
~ # ls -l /mnt/z.txt
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Dec 2 15:40 /mnt/z.txt
~ # # The timestamp shown was the same as in Windows
~ # # Then I created a file in linux:
~ # touch /mnt/y.txt
~ # ls -l /mnt/{z,y}.txt
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Dec 2 15:41 /mnt/y.txt
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Dec 2 15:40 /mnt/z.txt
~ # umount /mnt
~ # # Then I mounted the flash 'normally' to make sure the files'
~ # # timestamps are indeed in UTC:
~ # mount -t vfat /dev/sdg1 /mnt
~ # TZ=UTC ls -l /mnt/{z,y}.txt
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Dec 2 15:41 /mnt/y.txt
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Dec 2 15:40 /mnt/z.txt
~ # umount /mnt
~ #

Then I went back to Windows to confirm that y.txt created
in linux had the timestamp of 15:41, which of course it did.
Try to reproduce these steps. Maybe you don't have those
timezones set up correctly everywhere.

--
mrg

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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From: pau...@foxinternet.net (Paul R Schmidtbleicher)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: 4 Dec 2021 00:39:36 GMT
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 by: Paul R Schmidtbleich - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 00:39 UTC

On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 00:51:12 +0100, marrgol wrote:

Don't know, works for me just fine… Here's exactly how I tested it:

Thanks for your step by step. I discovered what I was doing wrong. It
does work. I mounted the flash as SuperUser "root" on /mnt and proceeded
to use the graphic (user) Dolphin to do my testing. I believe it was
reading and writing to the /run/media.... mount NOT /mnt mount.

Paul
--
paulrs

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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From: pau...@foxinternet.net (Paul R Schmidtbleicher)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: 8 Dec 2021 20:38:56 GMT
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 by: Paul R Schmidtbleich - Wed, 8 Dec 2021 20:38 UTC

On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 00:51:12 +0100, marrgol wrote:

One more note on this subject:
I discovered to mount the flash drive I had to have "root" or superuser
permissions. This also made the files owned by root and any changes had
to be done by "root."
Remember, I wanted to work on the files on this flash drive and end up
on "saving" with a local time stamp.
As such, I discovered extra option that needed to be added to the line
command to accomplish my goal, yet keep modification and ownership with
me as user. Here is the full command line entry:

sudo mount -t vfat -o uid=paul,gid=users,time_offset=-480 /dev/sdc1 /mnt

Adding the "uid" and "gid" options solved these ownership issues.

Thanks for all the help
--
paulrs

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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From: unr...@invalid.ca (William Unruh)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 00:36:31 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: William Unruh - Thu, 9 Dec 2021 00:36 UTC

On 2021-12-08, Paul R Schmidtbleicher <paulrs@foxinternet.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 00:51:12 +0100, marrgol wrote:
>
> One more note on this subject:
> I discovered to mount the flash drive I had to have "root" or superuser
> permissions. This also made the files owned by root and any changes had
> to be done by "root."
> Remember, I wanted to work on the files on this flash drive and end up
> on "saving" with a local time stamp.
> As such, I discovered extra option that needed to be added to the line
> command to accomplish my goal, yet keep modification and ownership with
> me as user. Here is the full command line entry:
>
> sudo mount -t vfat -o uid=paul,gid=users,time_offset=-480 /dev/sdc1 /mnt

As far as I know, vfat does not include the notion of owner and group.
Those are artificial notions imposed from outside when you mount them.
>
> Adding the "uid" and "gid" options solved these ownership issues.
They are not owned. Mounting them that way makes linux pretend that they
are owned by that user and group, but if you next time mount them with
uid-bugs,gid=bunny, that same flash drive will then be owned by
bugs.bunny. (assuning bugs and bunny are actually users and groups on
your machine).
>
> Thanks for all the help

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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From: pau...@foxinternet.net (Paul R Schmidtbleicher)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: 9 Dec 2021 01:27:12 GMT
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 by: Paul R Schmidtbleich - Thu, 9 Dec 2021 01:27 UTC

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 00:36:31 -0000 (UTC), William Unruh wrote:

> On 2021-12-08, Paul R Schmidtbleicher <paulrs@foxinternet.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 00:51:12 +0100, marrgol wrote:

I reached the "uid" "gid" conclusion by experimenting. I really do not
know why it worked.
The (User)Terminal says I can't execute "Mount" except by being a "Super
User"
So I mount with "sudo mount ..." - Flash Drive mounts.
To work with files on the Flash Drive with (User)Dolphin anything that
could make changes is Grayed-Out.
I go to "properties" to see that the files are now owned by "root" user
is "root."
(It seems the "sudo mount ..." has changed these ownerships)
To do anything with the flash drive content, I have to work with
(Superuser)Dolphin on the mounted flash drive.

This was my dilemmna. (secondary to my original goal of timestamps)

Adding the "uid" "gid" options worked! Not sure why??? But with it the
properties of directories and files on the Flash Drive list Owner: as paul
and Group: as users. I can modify, change, rename, etc. with the
(user)Dophin as a simple "User" not as "Root" which the system says is
not a good idea.

--
paulrs

Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives

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From: robin_li...@es.invalid (Carlos E.R.)
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: Re: UTC Time Stamps For Files on Flash Drives
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 05:02:02 +0100
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 by: Carlos E.R. - Thu, 9 Dec 2021 04:02 UTC

On 09/12/2021 02.27, Paul R Schmidtbleicher wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 00:36:31 -0000 (UTC), William Unruh wrote:
>
>> On 2021-12-08, Paul R Schmidtbleicher <paulrs@foxinternet.net> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 00:51:12 +0100, marrgol wrote:
>
> I reached the "uid" "gid" conclusion by experimenting. I really do not
> know why it worked.

You could have asked, I did not know you also had a "permission
problem". I have been using those options for a decade or two :-)

> The (User)Terminal says I can't execute "Mount" except by being a "Super
> User"

For that, you use the option "user".

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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