Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Contemptuous lights flashed across the computer's console. -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

devel / comp.protocols.kerberos / Re: RFC 4121 & acceptor subkey use in MIC token generation

SubjectAuthor
o Re: RFC 4121 & acceptor subkey use in MIC token generationKen Hornstein

1
Re: RFC 4121 & acceptor subkey use in MIC token generation

<mailman.31.1698357483.2263420.kerberos@mit.edu>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=407&group=comp.protocols.kerberos#407

  copy link   Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kerberos
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net!.POSTED.mailman.mit.edu!not-for-mail
From: ken...@cmf.nrl.navy.mil (Ken Hornstein)
Newsgroups: comp.protocols.kerberos
Subject: Re: RFC 4121 & acceptor subkey use in MIC token generation
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 17:57:37 -0400
Organization: TNet Consulting
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <mailman.31.1698357483.2263420.kerberos@mit.edu>
References: <202310251251.39PCpTqc026799@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTk62q0DIAZmW0eL@ubby21>
<CALF+FNwtDrQ0d+a=zsXyiYq6rhOiXXkqoxUnscwum0Q0wchLJQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202310261741.39QHfgIl030099@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTqtQYPlzdpQGyr+@ubby21>
<202310261827.39QIRu4Q000307@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTqw9+Etcwo8SqR4@ubby21>
<202310261838.39QIcl16000930@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTrAlh0a/+Vq5P4f@ubby21>
<202310262110.39QLAdhW010116@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTraV0714XV7hsxx@ubby21>
<202310262157.39QLvb2C012728@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Injection-Info: tncsrv06.tnetconsulting.net; posting-host="mailman.mit.edu:18.7.21.50";
logging-data="27937"; mail-complaints-to="newsmaster@tnetconsulting.net"
To: kerberos@mit.edu
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 unknown-host (unknown-jobid)
Authentication-Results: mailman.mit.edu;
dkim=pass (1024-bit key, unprotected) header.d=mitprod.onmicrosoft.com
header.i=@mitprod.onmicrosoft.com header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=selector2-mitprod-onmicrosoft-com header.b=aTlYs+r1;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key,
unprotected) header.d=nrl.navy.mil header.i=@nrl.navy.mil header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=s2.dkim header.b=FwHLewuk
Authentication-Results: mit.edu; dmarc=pass (p=reject dis=none)
header.from=cmf.nrl.navy.mil
Authentication-Results: mit.edu; arc=pass smtp.remote-ip=18.7.73.16
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; d=mit.edu; s=arc; t=1698357481; cv=pass;
b=jIYDoJplKBYFIPYiLB2/Y40iXucWZZEEwJOIUc63opyp4Ah0jtJKVFCCI4jrRN+ggHLOLTmswsVFqhvfStmCIwxSCdJtH04+Cypn3Xt3HFdcBbuT5NL/k6IdpZV8U2Ob48CGey25/ymeaIS2IpSf3yZpoYr0ZOROM4yPcyn2cGtyhJh/4gNziEfVXS0FD3GFALImT71BLP16tvC01yJlloLVUN6LZ5HqJVINLJweyiodmTQjKVAwx9XgzttDI677dc3Vh04Njte0HXcsOkKy1CvOcD4luaiuO5KJ4WJaeSU2f9ReGKVETOLf3qFsE/MWohrm83oEGFxvyM9DE6Jrzg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; d=mit.edu; s=arc; t=1698357481;
c=relaxed/relaxed; bh=mAYdok2/aCOIEYDV2Nh2hpl4UF27Tatws3lor4+hekU=;
h=Message-ID:From:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Date;
b=D+KNnYbomwlGhXwgAXNbm28Yz68qNiI3xnAppbDJ0ZHhE3px1hAN15ImJ5lzswXhMVXQXXddbykNKeAwhkjLMFNm0e7mGcUOybFhn+T/C9WQ7DglIR+TSp34I9OiwFMwXUjWfNopccFtrGaFtfP5bqOqQH1Oct1hrJZxemiIiKjCWljmLIDll9BhlWti7qYp6/xqrXy+QMC3dEpxyORlJQ7639oBiA1fwsH1TTh2hpAuCMOJ+NhNiWhmtxkFCbFKj86HlMlyntA+zntpashIuker23QktURVda/Hr0OM7SM8yxbpqIzoXzwTerR5TsTaburwORuN+BGNTG1JiwTgQw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; mit.edu; dkim=pass (1024-bit key;
unprotected) header.d=mitprod.onmicrosoft.com
header.i=@mitprod.onmicrosoft.com header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=selector2-mitprod-onmicrosoft-com header.b=aTlYs+r1;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key;
unprotected) header.d=nrl.navy.mil header.i=@nrl.navy.mil header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=s2.dkim header.b=FwHLewuk
Authentication-Results: mit.edu; dkim=pass (1024-bit key;
unprotected) header.d=mitprod.onmicrosoft.com
header.i=@mitprod.onmicrosoft.com header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=selector2-mitprod-onmicrosoft-com header.b=aTlYs+r1;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key;
unprotected) header.d=nrl.navy.mil header.i=@nrl.navy.mil header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=s2.dkim header.b=FwHLewuk
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none;
b=ZQ4l6zkCQsjN9jCRIyPgqRG9lzejzkTeB2aIKS3atb/FRxGVXW2kJ2DfvyCsYYAF6ATBBu5g2Udvfe0SxOv9HV1lFdZqXJCH7UXFSWnkMKhNw8UOA1ZF3W8uZFxPyjFbpjjJsEDg8Wj2c9nf8b4witVjyxD8eoFXjncnpsXvj6nppnmyefjFko23px+N5/QPl6jXJq7oVEuaxyC6aWw2PBAzGiv+kq9J+T6g1nlzkc1ytx4x7ufcIiT1DRYkkhVujIsyIHAxxII2s7CGmPtcfOVIEJWBPgvFhXiJOSnbSM+PBEJzXJMaTx0LH85HGQpJ+R4929ZeOnUB/n/h84g7RQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com;
s=arcselector9901;
h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1;
bh=mAYdok2/aCOIEYDV2Nh2hpl4UF27Tatws3lor4+hekU=;
b=iIhejhClZl2hsaWkzmhEVjBwNQ2NhRVO0L6cm7bkPCRSIBtdNIjHtZWOUs82jtUVIyoVEGXoJ/LMdUsC2fgk3YvXqqEgrHkR0YsPzr8WNiQqqZNBLVjWkEQHDrBfO4HWX0UHNSx4oyNkzdVN0pZm3jZEqAOJPJcIfNIEK/Jro8UUeg2l6aChOPbNdYBCJiaFw3NTVyGXPnWM3Ztr8fDzZA+DTxxGXsDD1Eh/e79Fl5sN1mjt074UYkuj6VWRN5gSJkMxGebZgdtHyo5h9d3BwKS14ZvDU0me9tC621eKkJ2dAKzGFjeCDpGlcOm9reqmueMZtHrTp3hkmTWkXfsFRA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass (sender ip is
140.32.59.234) smtp.rcpttodomain=mit.edu smtp.mailfrom=cmf.nrl.navy.mil;
dmarc=pass (p=reject sp=reject pct=100) action=none
header.from=cmf.nrl.navy.mil; dkim=pass (signature was verified)
header.d=nrl.navy.mil; arc=none (0)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=mitprod.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-mitprod-onmicrosoft-com;
h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck;
bh=mAYdok2/aCOIEYDV2Nh2hpl4UF27Tatws3lor4+hekU=;
b=aTlYs+r1lzAHwHXBNd1YUOVcw2P0FYouR3jbFRDeKq0CuwRcv/NShY7DITSvhCXgqDK1ViDyDes8KK2v1q2ND4MzKkDa0dR+kXKTVdzWr9wbCXGIDKtGaiBWNgz2919AUiLwpjVLqdDH2ExEJdqRAYi8qzey07iiIKcUkdrU130=
Authentication-Results: spf=pass (sender IP is 140.32.59.234)
smtp.mailfrom=cmf.nrl.navy.mil; dkim=pass (signature was verified)
header.d=nrl.navy.mil;dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cmf.nrl.navy.mil;
Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of cmf.nrl.navy.mil
designates 140.32.59.234 as permitted sender)
receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=140.32.59.234; helo=mf.dren.mil;
pr=C
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nrl.navy.mil;
h=message-id : from :
to : subject : in-reply-to : references : mime-version : content-type :
date; s=s2.dkim; bh=mAYdok2/aCOIEYDV2Nh2hpl4UF27Tatws3lor4+hekU=;
b=FwHLewukzv9bK37Z7uXu93rBKIL0ytfWjpCtM7OTuzoB8Vbz19+3sASXjVgWu3pR4HvS
rzt/jCnZGqnHBD6ULFmqHeBg7+KE5/PLVnEHLC5HEBOHH6Qf2THM4DqZXai/hq625icu
uOeby9pvaexDj/L2uSe/SBg/v6jBnFUDOaMluBCJ/or30g/KesQSuJSv0kdxkeWNqMW7
SuB7DUn8LgpgbmqFJe/x4O6WQQzxx/g2ITwHPuhtP+l+Jz0pIQyjdgDYEEdLr/3LbIDX
k5gf+cJlKMrnmbg7MpQI1smLVN+NmzInzq7FcBOPOtyvzQMqiGn29SbEJZbqAatobjaT zw==
In-Reply-To: <ZTraV0714XV7hsxx@ubby21>
X-Face: "Evs"_GpJ]],xS)b$T2#V&{KfP_i2`TlPrY$Iv9+TQ!6+`~+l)#7I)0xr1>4hfd{#0B4
WIn3jU;bql;{2Uq%zw5bF4?%F&&j8@KaT?#vBGk}u07<+6/`.F-3_GA@6Bq5gN9\+s;_d
gD\SW #]iN_U0 KUmOR.P<|um5yP<ea#^"SJK;C*}fMI;Mv(aiO2z~9n.w?@\>kEpSD@*e`
X-NRLCMF-Spam-Score: () hits=0 User Authenticated
X-NRLCMF-Virus-Scanned:
X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0
X-EOPTenantAttributedMessage: 64afd9ba-0ecf-4acf-bc36-935f6235ba8b:0
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: MN1PEPF0000ECD4:EE_|MW6PR01MB8414:EE_
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: e68e3dc3-569d-462e-add8-08dbd66e9201
X-LD-Processed: 64afd9ba-0ecf-4acf-bc36-935f6235ba8b,ExtAddr
X-MS-Exchange-AtpMessageProperties: SA
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 0
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:140.32.59.234; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:;
IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:mf.dren.mil; PTR:mfe.dren.mil; CAT:NONE;
SFS:(13230031)(4636009)(136003)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(396003)(61400799006)(451199024)(64100799003)(48200799006)(68406010)(34206002)(786003)(316002)(498600001)(70586007)(5660300002)(8676002)(66899024)(2906002)(86362001)(83380400001)(356005)(426003)(956004)(1076003)(26005)(336012)(7636003);
DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, OOF, AutoReply
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2023 21:57:38.6137 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e68e3dc3-569d-462e-add8-08dbd66e9201
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 64afd9ba-0ecf-4acf-bc36-935f6235ba8b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN1PEPF0000ECD4.namprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW6PR01MB8414
X-OriginatorOrg: mitprod.onmicrosoft.com
X-BeenThere: kerberos@mit.edu
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34
Precedence: list
List-Id: The Kerberos Authentication System Mailing List <kerberos.mit.edu>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/options/kerberos>,
<mailto:kerberos-request@mit.edu?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/kerberos/>
List-Post: <mailto:kerberos@mit.edu>
List-Help: <mailto:kerberos-request@mit.edu?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/kerberos>,
<mailto:kerberos-request@mit.edu?subject=subscribe>
X-Mailman-Original-Message-ID: <202310262157.39QLvb2C012728@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
X-Mailman-Original-References: <202310251251.39PCpTqc026799@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTk62q0DIAZmW0eL@ubby21>
<CALF+FNwtDrQ0d+a=zsXyiYq6rhOiXXkqoxUnscwum0Q0wchLJQ@mail.gmail.com>
<202310261741.39QHfgIl030099@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTqtQYPlzdpQGyr+@ubby21>
<202310261827.39QIRu4Q000307@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTqw9+Etcwo8SqR4@ubby21>
<202310261838.39QIcl16000930@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTrAlh0a/+Vq5P4f@ubby21>
<202310262110.39QLAdhW010116@hedwig.cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
<ZTraV0714XV7hsxx@ubby21>
 by: Ken Hornstein - Thu, 26 Oct 2023 21:57 UTC

>> Unfortunately, ANOTHER one of the "fun" rules I live under is, "Thou
>> shall have no other PKI than the DoD PKI". And as much as I can
>> legitimately argue for many of the unusual things that I do, I can't get
>> away with that one; [...]
>
>A CA that issues short-lived certificates (for keys that might be
>software keys) is morally equivalent to a Kerberos KDC. You ought to be
>able to deploy such online CAs that issue only short-lived certs.

You know that. I know that. But remember: "if you're explaining,
you're losing". When asked I can honestly say, "Kerberos is not
a PKI" and that's good enough, but I can't say with a straight
face, "This X.509 CA over here is not a PKI".

>Presumably OpenSSH CAs are a different story because they're not x.509? :)

Strangely enough, I am not aware of anyone in the DoD that uses OpenSSH
CAs (there probably are, I just don't know them). I could see it being
argued both ways. The people I know who use OpenSSH are (a) using
gssapi-with-mic like us, (b) just using passwords, or (c) using their
client smartcart key as a key for RSA authentication and they call that
"DOD PKI authentication". Again, you know and I know that isn't really
using PKI certificates, but the people up the chain aren't really smart
enough to understand the distinction; they see that you're using the
smartcard and that's good enough for them.

>> We _do_ do PKINIT with the DoD PKI today; that is relatively
>> straightforward with the exception of dealing with certificate
>> revocation (last time I checked the total size of the DOD CRL package
>> was approximately 8 million serial numbers, sigh).
>
>Don't you have OCSP responders?

We _do_, it's just a pain to find an OCSP responder that can handle that
many. If the official ones go offline that breaks our KDC so we run our
own locally.

>One of the problems I'm finding is that SSHv2 client implementations are
>proliferating, and IDEs nowadays tend to come with one, and not one of
>them supports GSS-KEYEX, though most of them support gssapi-with-mic, so
>it makes you want to give up on GSS-KEYEX.

Right, part of the problem there is that people want to "use Kerberos
with ssh", and they don't understand the difference between gssapi-with-mic
and gss-keyex.

--Ken

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.8
clearnet tor