On 6/15/23 10:01 AM, sms wrote:
> On 6/14/2023 9:43 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I'd be willing to spend $20 for 20 GB if they didn't die.  I can see why
>> nobody would sell immortal data, but I don't have to like it.
>
> You can buy immortal data but not for $1/GB. That's about what MVNOs pay
> the carriers for data.

OK, I might have been overly cheap. Who DOES sell immortal data?

--
Cheers, Bev
"There are only two reasons to sit in the back row of an
airplane: Either you have diarrhoea, or you're anxious to
meet people who do." -- Rich Jeni

On 2023-06-14 19:10, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 16:01:14 -0500, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>
>> https://www.mintmobile.com/features/international-roaming/
>> (looks like you already checked this out)
>>
>> If you're only going to make calls to friends and family, maybe you
>> could convince them to get the same chat client (WhatsApp, WeChat, mIRC,
>> Skype, etc).
>
> No, short of an emergency like my being in a hospital and missing my
> return flight, I don't expect to call friends of family at all. We can
> correspond for anything else by e-mail, if needed (my hotel provides
> wi-fi).

My visitors on the past summer had their return flights cancelled. They
had to phone the German company on USA or Canada to get another flight
back, an hour long phone call.

Yes, of course they tried the local office of the same company, but got
an automatic speech saying to use internet, which was a no go, I don't
remember why.

You never know.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 6/15/2023 10:15 AM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 6/15/23 10:01 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 6/14/2023 9:43 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I'd be willing to spend $20 for 20 GB if they didn't die.  I can see
>>> why nobody would sell immortal data, but I don't have to like it.
>>
>> You can buy immortal data but not for $1/GB. That's about what MVNOs pay
>> the carriers for data.
>
> OK, I might have been overly cheap.  Who DOES sell immortal data?

Keepgo but you have to add a small amount of money each year. The data
is very expensive.

In the U.S., the best low-cost option for data appears to be the new
Verizon MVNO MobileX which charges $2.10/GB and if you don't use the
whole GB the remaining rolls over. But it's $1.99/month to keep a line
active. Plus taxes and fees.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-06-14 16:16, VanguardLH wrote:
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-06-14 03:03, sms wrote:
>>>> On 6/13/2023 6:45 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>>>
>>>> I was in Italy pre-pandemic and pre-BREXIT and I used a UK Vodafone SIM
>>>> card that was a good deal, €1 per 500MB plus calling and texting in the
>>>> EU and EEA. I activated it in the U.S.. But Vodafone UK wrecked that
>>>> plan after BREXIT.
>>>
>>> I had visitors last year in Spain, and they bought a prepaid Vodafone
>>> card I did not know about. I don't remember the details, but maybe 50€,
>>> unlimited data, unlimited calls, for a month.
>>>
>>> They had to call their flight company office at the other side of the
>>> Atlantic, several very long phone calls, which to me would have been
>>> expensive, were free to them.
>>>
>>> They found the card while walking the side streets of Barcelona, at a
>>> small shop that sold cards mostly to immigrants and foreigners (it
>>> helped that my visitors speak Spanish) :-D
>>>
>>> I was trying to find a suitable card on Internet, but my cousin beat me
>>> to it just strolling and getting lost on the streets :-D
>>>
>>> For paper work, I think they needed some ID like a driving license or
>>> passport.
>>>
>>> I suppose Italy is similar, but I do not know.
>>
>> https://www.phonetravelwiz.com/vodafone-italy-review/
>> Mentions the bands that the phone must support for Vodafone Italy.
>>
>> But the data quota is limited, like 10 to 100 GB - which is a lot if you
>> don't generate high bandwidth traffic, like watching videos.
>
> It might have been 100 GB here, too, I have forgotten the details.
>
>>
>> Regarding maps (should the OP want some for Italy, or elsewhere) ...
>>
>> I don't know how fast an interactive (on-demand) map app would eat data
>> quota, but you could get a map app that uses offline map databases, like
>> Here [WeGo] (https://play.google.com/store/search?q=here%20we%20go,
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_WeGo).
>
> Or OSMand.

I'm retracting my recommendation of Here WeGo. I hadn't used it for a
long time, uninstalled it, and reinstalled due to this discussion. It
works except for one major glitch: it shows my current location as 11
miles away. Google Maps and Sygic show me where I am, so GPS is
working. I have my phone set to high accuracy: GPS + wifi + mobile
networks). Since I would be using maps for routing to places from
wherever I am at the time, not showing my correct current location is a
must. I sent feedback using the app, and gave an e-mail alias for them
to respond which they did with:

- Reinstall the app. I *just* installed it. It is a new install.
- Login in offline mode. I didn't create an account, and won't create
one. Once loaded, I changed the app to offline mode although offline
maps is a backup mode of operation versus online that I would prefer.
Didn't help. The current location was still 11 miles away. They said
to toggle the offline mode. When I went back to online mode, the
current location was where I was. So that worked, but seems a bug in
their app.
-

Map downloads are easier to select than in Sygic, especially for the US.
There is no voice input to define a destination. You have to type it in
which is not something I'll do while driving, and requires free hands (I
don't thumb type, especially due to the large size of the phone).

I'll have to do some more testing to see if I keep Here WeGo. The Sygic
map app seems good, but map downloads are extremely slow, and the free
version gets updates only 3 times per year, takes longer to load the
app, and they plaster a gold crown icon atop the map to promote buying
their premium version. I've also installed the Maps.Me app and may try
OsmAnd (OpenStreet Maps); however, while they get some map data from
known sources, much of it, including updates, is crowd sourced (users of
the app update the maps). I don't trust the public to be accurate.

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 14:29:14 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> I'm retracting my recommendation of Here WeGo.

You may wish to try MapFactor Navigator.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator

MapFactor Navigator uses professional maps (not OSM maps).
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/

In looking up the URL I noticed the free Navigator now has ads.
That's too bad. But the older versions definitely didn't have ads.

Patron Saint <patron@saint.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> I'm retracting my recommendation of Here WeGo. ...
>
> You may wish to try MapFactor Navigator.
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator
>
> MapFactor Navigator uses professional maps (not OSM maps).
> https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/
>
> In looking up the URL I noticed the free Navigator now has ads.
> That's too bad. But the older versions definitely didn't have ads.

Alas, they have got to an ad-ridden app while trying to monetize their
product, like throttling it down to a max of 7 offline maps in the free
version. Maps.Me did the same thing: ads, and limit of 10 offline maps.

https://play.google.com/store/search?q=mapfactor
"GPS Navigation - offline maps from OSM and Tom Tom."

https://navigatorfree.mapfactor.com/en/
"Based on free offline maps from OpenStreetMaps project, ..."

So, they *do* use crowd-sourced OpenStreet Maps map data. While some
map data comes from "freely licensed geodata sources", I've not seen a
delineated list of what are those non-contributor sources.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/about

On 2023-06-16 08:13, VanguardLH wrote:
> Patron Saint <patron@saint.com> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:

....

> Alas, they have got to an ad-ridden app while trying to monetize their
> product, like throttling it down to a max of 7 offline maps in the free
> version. Maps.Me did the same thing: ads, and limit of 10 offline maps.
>
> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=mapfactor
> "GPS Navigation - offline maps from OSM and Tom Tom."

Notice that OSM and TomTom reached an agreement. They may be sharing the
map now.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 01:13:16 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
>> In looking up the URL I noticed the free Navigator now has ads.
>> That's too bad. But the older versions definitely didn't have ads.
>
> Alas, they have got to an ad-ridden app while trying to monetize their
> product, like throttling it down to a max of 7 offline maps in the free
> version. Maps.Me did the same thing: ads, and limit of 10 offline maps.

I'm sorry about that. I used it years ago and it definitely did NOT have
ads but that's why you never want to let an app update on its own accord.

It was released in 2012 where I used it for years when I didn't have data.

> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=mapfactor
> "GPS Navigation - offline maps from OSM and Tom Tom."

At the time I used it, I remember they had a variety of map sources for us.
As I recall, the TomTom maps were free, and they had Copilot's maps too.

> https://navigatorfree.mapfactor.com/en/
> "Based on free offline maps from OpenStreetMaps project, ..."

I just checked on Google Play & it seems to have been bought out maybe?

The Google Play description says this for the free version.
"MapFactor Navigator is a free GPS navigation app with free offline maps
from OpenStreetMaps"

But the online description says this for the professional version.
"Navigator also supports professional TomTom maps, which offer better and
more accurate map coverage"
https://navigatorfree.mapfactor.com/en/maps/
> So, they *do* use crowd-sourced OpenStreet Maps map data. While some
> map data comes from "freely licensed geodata sources", I've not seen a
> delineated list of what are those non-contributor sources.

The way I used to be able to tell OSM maps is I knew of an error in them.
But I don't have MapFactor Navigator currently installed so I can't look.

> https://www.openstreetmap.org/about

I think this is bad news as TomTom seems to be in bed with OSM nowadays.
https://www.tomtom.com/newsroom/news/tomtom-joins-the-openstreetmap-foundation/

I take back my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator as it seems to have
gone to hell since I used it in the days when I didn't have cellular data.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 11:24:02 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Notice that OSM and TomTom reached an agreement.
> They may be sharing the map now.

Thank you for looking that up because I was unaware of the OSM conjoining.

I didn't know this since I last used MapFactor Navigator when I didn't have
cellular data and I had found it more accurate than the OSM maps were.

It looks like the founder of OSM has a key position with the TomTom execs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom
Where I was rather surprised to see this unrelated line in that wiki.
"In April 2011, TomTom apologized for supplying driving data collected from
customers to police to use in catching speeding motorists."

Wow. That's bad.

Anyway, looks like TomTom has been editing OSM maps since only 2021.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TomTom

That same wiki says that the conjoined maps will be released in 2023.
"TomTom announced that its new TomTom Map will use OSM data when it is
released, sometime in 2023"

I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.

NOTE: Subject changed since this subthread has focused on map apps (due
to my suggestion to the OP) which is not the topic of the original
thread.

Patron Saint <patron@saint.com> wrote:

> I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
> won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus

Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
*subscriptionware*), which are:

OsmAnd Cloud (backup and restore)
Cross-platform
Hourly map updates
Weather plug-in
Elevation widget
Customize route line
External sensors support (ANT+, Bluetooth)
Online elevation profile

Hmm, since Bluetooth is mentioned as a paid Plus feature, will the free
version still connect via Bluetooth for audio output of driving
instructions to the car's stereo?

This is an Android app. Maybe cross-platform means they have an iOS
app, too. Went to their web site (http://osmand.net/) to see which
platforms for which they have an app. Android and iOS is all I found.
No UWP app for Windows. For desktops (Windows or Linux), guess you'll
have to use a web browser. While Google Maps has a web site, and so
does Waze (it has problems with its scrollable listboxes), I don't know
of an OsmAnd web site to do mapping. Looks like you'll have to use the
OpenStreet Maps web site (https://www.openstreetmap.org). To me, the
claim of "cross-platform support" means more than just 2 platforms both
of which are mobile platforms.

Hourly updates means there will be a few updates, but probably not in
your area.

Weather plug-in. I need another weather app?

For current elevation, I don't need another widget. I'm not into
cluttering my screens with widgets. I just use the Positional app
(https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.trewartha.positional)
which includes a compass (although I have SimplyWerx app for compassing)
and dawn/dusk info. Don't need to pay to get elevation.

For the Plus version, not enough bang-for-the-buck, to me, especially
for a $30/year subscription. However, there is in "Install" button on
the app's page, just a "$29.99 Buy" button, but the page also says
"In-app purchases". So, you pay for it, and it still had ads?

Doesn't look like your recommendation of OsmAnd+ is free as you claim.
Maybe what you have is their free version (without the plus sign) at
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand which also
notes "in-app purchases". I don't recall ever seeing an add in Google
Maps, but then they make money from the telemetry they collect.

"Data is encrypted in transit"
What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
app save waypoints?

Supposedly this, and other, map app will alert you when you are
exceeding the speed limit, and may show the speed limit in the display
for the street you are on. Okay, but I've yet to see that work when I
trialed a bunch of map apps a while ago (probably over a year). That
makes me wonder just how dense is their crowd sourcing their map data.
Waze talks about showing other nearby Waze drivers, but that really
doesn't give stats on density of participating community members in your
area. I have not found stats on density of OSM contributors by city or
region. I live in a metro of 3.7 million, so you'd think there are some
OSM contributors here, but I'm leery when I don't see speed limits
indicating the contributor density here is, at best, sparse. I can find
articles, like:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Number-of-OpenStreetMap-OSM-Contributors-per-Population-Area-ratio-Jan-2007-Sept_fig2_272646359

but that's over a decade old, and only gathered stats on a few
locations. Unless the *active* crowd-sourcing community is dense in my
area, I don't see the point of using this mapping service. I found:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats

but, again, that is worthless for determining the density of active
contributors in any particular area. If there are not many contributors
in the area you want mapped, accuracy will be poor as well as volume and
interval of updates.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
[...]
> > Skype would be much more helpful. Skype can reach all phone numbers
> > around the globe. But it does not solve the issue of mobile connections.
>
> You have to buy Skype-Out minutes. Then your Skype account can not only
> connect to other Skype users (which is free), but also to any type of
> phones (landline, mobile), but mobile coverage is more limited. They
> used be called Skype-In and Skype-Out minutes, but it looks like they've
> been merged and just called Skype Minutes.

For occasional (or no) use, i.e. like the OP (Ken Blake), you don't
have to buy Skype Minutes, you can buy Skype Credit [1].

Skype Credit starts as low as EUR 5 (I've EUR 10), can be set to top-up
automatically and never expires.

You can call any number anywhere for quite reasonable rates. For
example Italy (i.e. Ken's case) is 2.4 cts/min for landline and 10.4
cts/min for mobile (for NL users, probably similar for US users).

As said elsewhere, you of course need an Internet connection - i.e.
Wi-Fi or mobile data - to use Skype.

I use it as a backup or/and for lengthly or/and overseas calls, for
example when visiting Australia or the US.

[1]
'Call phones and send SMS anywhere in the world at affordable prices
with Skype Credit'
<https://www.skype.com/en/credit>

[...]

On 6/16/2023 10:36 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> For occasional (or no) use, i.e. like the OP (Ken Blake), you don't
> have to buy Skype Minutes, you can buy Skype Credit [1].
>
> Skype Credit starts as low as EUR 5 (I've EUR 10), can be set to top-up
> automatically and never expires.

Localphone to Italy:
Landlines: 0.7¢
Mobiles: 26¢
Incoming Italian number: $3/month plus $5 setup fee. Renting a UK
number is less, 99¢ plus 99¢ setup fee.

Google Voice to Italy
Landlines: 1¢
Mobile: 3-22¢
Incoming Italian number: Not available

Skype to Italy
Landlines: 2.3¢ plus 4.9¢ connection fee
Mobile: 10¢ plus 8.9¢ connection fee
Incoming Italian number: Not available

The reality is that to contact someone in Italy on their mobile phone
you're likely going to use WhatsApp. If you're calling a hotel,
restaurant, airline, etc., you'll be calling a landline.

If you expect to be receiving calls, then it's nice to not have someone
having to make an international call back to the U.S., to your Google
Voice number, by having a number in the country or region you're visiting.

But it's better to get a SIM card that is voice, SMS, and data, even
though the number of outgoing calls on these cards are limited due to
the "caller pays" system for mobile numbers in many countries.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

VanguardLH <V@nguard.lh> wrote:
> NOTE: Subject changed since this subthread has focused on map apps (due
> to my suggestion to the OP) which is not the topic of the original
> thread.
>
>
> Patron Saint <patron@saint.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
> > won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.
>
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus
>
> Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
> *subscriptionware*), which are:
>
> OsmAnd Cloud (backup and restore)
> Cross-platform
> Hourly map updates
> Weather plug-in
> Elevation widget
> Customize route line
> External sensors support (ANT+, Bluetooth)
> Online elevation profile

For some reason I can't scroll through the 'About this app' part at
the moment, but there are three 'versions':

- The really free - but limited - one:
'OsmAnd Maps & GPS Offline'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand>
Note 'OsmAnd', not 'OsmAnd+'.

- The full(er) version 'OsmAnd+', which you *buy* for $29.99:
'OsmAnd+ Maps & GPS Offline'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>
I have this version (on (IIRC) a maximum of four devices at a time).

- The monthly subscription which you mention above.
You call that "the Plus features", but I don't think *they* call it
that, because the would be confusing with the purchased "+" version.
N.B. *In* the app it's called 'OsmAnd Pro', Pro not Plus and says
'From $2.99 / month', so I wonder if your '$29.99' is a typo.

> Hmm, since Bluetooth is mentioned as a paid Plus feature, will the free
> version still connect via Bluetooth for audio output of driving
> instructions to the car's stereo?

I think so, Bluetooth audio is just a device/Android function, not an
app function. Note that the subscription Bluetooth feature is for
"External *sensors*", not audio output.

> This is an Android app. Maybe cross-platform means they have an iOS
> app, too. Went to their web site (http://osmand.net/) to see which
> platforms for which they have an app. Android and iOS is all I found.
> No UWP app for Windows. For desktops (Windows or Linux), guess you'll
> have to use a web browser. While Google Maps has a web site, and so
> does Waze (it has problems with its scrollable listboxes), I don't know
> of an OsmAnd web site to do mapping. Looks like you'll have to use the
> OpenStreet Maps web site (https://www.openstreetmap.org). To me, the
> claim of "cross-platform support" means more than just 2 platforms both
> of which are mobile platforms.

It's (mainly) an *offline* *navigation* app, so it runs on devices,
which have a GPS, which is Android and iPhones (and probably some
iPads). So cross-platform is exactly that, cross-platform on mobile
devices. That's their market, like for. for example, Sygic.

(Yes, there are navigation 'apps' for Windows, OsmAnd[+] isn't such
an app.)

> Hourly updates means there will be a few updates, but probably not in
> your area.
>
> Weather plug-in. I need another weather app?
>
> For current elevation, I don't need another widget. I'm not into
> cluttering my screens with widgets. I just use the Positional app
> (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.trewartha.positional)
> which includes a compass (although I have SimplyWerx app for compassing)
> and dawn/dusk info. Don't need to pay to get elevation.
>
> For the Plus version, not enough bang-for-the-buck, to me, especially
> for a $30/year subscription. However, there is in "Install" button on
> the app's page, just a "$29.99 Buy" button, but the page also says
> "In-app purchases". So, you pay for it, and it still had ads?

See above for the differences between free app, paid app and monthly
subscription.

FWIW, I've used OsmAnd+ extensively for many, many years, several
times around the globe and never found the need for the features of the
monthly subscription.

And "In-app purchases" means just that, in-app *purchases*. For
example in my OsmAnd+ version, I can 'buy' the OsmAnd Pro subscription
(they call it a 'plan'). (Doing a quick look, I haven't seen any other
purchases.) If it contained *ads*, the Google Play / Play Store entry
would *say* so.

[...]

> "Data is encrypted in transit"
> What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
> since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
> retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
> storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
> don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
> app save waypoints?

Yes, of course, several different kinds.

For your other questions: They have a quite ellaborate website. Have
you looked at that?

> Supposedly this, and other, map app will alert you when you are
> exceeding the speed limit, and may show the speed limit in the display
> for the street you are on. Okay, but I've yet to see that work when I
> trialed a bunch of map apps a while ago (probably over a year). That
> makes me wonder just how dense is their crowd sourcing their map data.
> Waze talks about showing other nearby Waze drivers, but that really
> doesn't give stats on density of participating community members in your
> area. I have not found stats on density of OSM contributors by city or
> region. I live in a metro of 3.7 million, so you'd think there are some
> OSM contributors here, but I'm leery when I don't see speed limits
> indicating the contributor density here is, at best, sparse. I can find
> articles, like:
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Number-of-OpenStreetMap-OSM-Contributors-per-Population-Area-ratio-Jan-2007-Sept_fig2_272646359
>
> but that's over a decade old, and only gathered stats on a few
> locations. Unless the *active* crowd-sourcing community is dense in my
> area, I don't see the point of using this mapping service. I found:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats
>
> but, again, that is worthless for determining the density of active
> contributors in any particular area. If there are not many contributors
> in the area you want mapped, accuracy will be poor as well as volume and
> interval of updates.

OpenStreetMap contributors do not just use *their* data, but also and
even mostly, publicly available/useable data. Creating worldwide maps
from scratch, would be impossible with just contributor data.

In my experience, OSM maps are of similar quality as commercial maps
(like Google Maps, TomTom, HERE, etc.) and often better in out-of-town/
rural/outback/remote/<whatever> areas. OsmAnd can also show a lot,
probably orders of magnitude, more POI information than other - pure/
mainly navigation - apps.

FYI, as you have looked at them: OsmAnd+ (OSM maps) is my main app,
Sygic (TomTom) is my hardly ever used backup and HERE WeGo (HERE/NAVTEQ
maps) is my 'if everything else fails' app.

On 2023-06-16 19:07, VanguardLH wrote:
> NOTE: Subject changed since this subthread has focused on map apps (due
> to my suggestion to the OP) which is not the topic of the original
> thread.
>
>
> Patron Saint <patron@saint.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
>> won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.
>
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus
>
> Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
> *subscriptionware*), which are:

I bought the "+" app some years ago (single payment), and apparently I
have unlimited maps, but not automatic updates.

>
> OsmAnd Cloud (backup and restore)
> Cross-platform
> Hourly map updates
> Weather plug-in
> Elevation widget
> Customize route line
> External sensors support (ANT+, Bluetooth)
> Online elevation profile
>
> Hmm, since Bluetooth is mentioned as a paid Plus feature, will the free
> version still connect via Bluetooth for audio output of driving
> instructions to the car's stereo?

I have not tried that, but the app is in my Android Auto display. And
Android auto can be via cable or via radio.

However, I guess that if your connect your car audio to the phone via
BT, everything goes through the car speakers, same as if you are using
headphones.

>
> Weather plug-in. I need another weather app?

I have not tried that, but I would like "something" that predicts the
weather on my route at the hour I will be on each part of the route.
Neither TomTom nor Google Maps does that.

>
> For current elevation, I don't need another widget. I'm not into
> cluttering my screens with widgets. I just use the Positional app
> (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.trewartha.positional)
> which includes a compass (although I have SimplyWerx app for compassing)
> and dawn/dusk info. Don't need to pay to get elevation.

AFAIK, elevation is for plotting the elevation into the already
displayed maps, not a widget. Altitude curves, or shadows in the
mountains. I have both, and I do want them. Cheap and single payment.
Don't remember if it is a single item or two.

>
> For the Plus version, not enough bang-for-the-buck, to me, especially
> for a $30/year subscription. However, there is in "Install" button on
> the app's page, just a "$29.99 Buy" button, but the page also says
> "In-app purchases". So, you pay for it, and it still had ads?

No, mine is single payments and no adds.

>
> Doesn't look like your recommendation of OsmAnd+ is free as you claim.
> Maybe what you have is their free version (without the plus sign) at
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand which also
> notes "in-app purchases". I don't recall ever seeing an add in Google
> Maps, but then they make money from the telemetry they collect.
>
> "Data is encrypted in transit"
> What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
> since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
> retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
> storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
> don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
> app save waypoints?

AFAIK yes, but the app is not easy to use, it has tons of features and
they seem to change or evolve.

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-06-16 17:18, Patron Saint wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 11:24:02 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Notice that OSM and TomTom reached an agreement. They may be sharing
>> the map now.
>
> Thank you for looking that up because I was unaware of the OSM conjoining.
>
> I didn't know this since I last used MapFactor Navigator when I didn't have
> cellular data and I had found it more accurate than the OSM maps were.
>
> It looks like the founder of OSM has a key position with the TomTom execs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom
> Where I was rather surprised to see this unrelated line in that wiki.
> "In April 2011, TomTom apologized for supplying driving data collected from
> customers to police to use in catching speeding motorists."
>
> Wow. That's bad.

You have to read the entire section, is not that simple.
And the references:

<https://web.archive.org/web/20170810172128/https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/tomtom_customer_data_flap/>

<https://web.archive.org/web/20110501003501/http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/04/27/business-telecommunications-equipment-eu-netherlands-earns-tomtom_8438128.html>

>
> Anyway, looks like TomTom has been editing OSM maps since only 2021.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TomTom
>
> That same wiki says that the conjoined maps will be released in 2023.
> "TomTom announced that its new TomTom Map will use OSM data when it is
> released, sometime in 2023"

I don't know if my TomTom device will automatically see those maps, or
whether I have to purchase a new device.

>
> I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
> won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote

>> Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> nothing of import
>
> Your lack of attention span or initiative is not my fault. So, um, your
> one-liners are really supposed to convery more information. Uh huh.

The best advice is to plonk Joerg so that nobody has to see his garbage.
Certainly please do not respond to him as he has nothing at all to say.
(I've long ago plonked him so if he bothers to respond, I won't see it.)

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> And "In-app purchases" means just that, in-app *purchases*. For
> example in my OsmAnd+ version, I can 'buy' the OsmAnd Pro subscription
> (they call it a 'plan'). (Doing a quick look, I haven't seen any other
> purchases.) If it contained *ads*, the Google Play / Play Store entry
> would *say* so.

In-app purchases can be for upgrades to the app, or for other products
by the same app author, or completely unrelated products. Google /does/
say so by noting "In-app purchases". There is no mandate those ads are
only for that app or from that app author.

https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/1061913

As yet, I've found nothing by Google dictating the scope of content for
those in-app offers. Despite "purchases", those in-app purchases are
offers hence ads. The only requirement is those in-app offers go
through Google Play's billing service, so Google gets a slice of that
pie, too, and Google gets to track the count and what acquisitions were
made by a user on its server.

>> "Data is encrypted in transit"
>> What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
>> since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
>> retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
>> storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
>> don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
>> app save waypoints?
>
> Yes, of course, several different kinds.
>
> For your other questions: They have a quite ellaborate website. Have
> you looked at that?

But no description of just what is the user data that gets encrypted
which would only be important if it were to traverse the Internet.

>> Supposedly this, and other, map app will alert you when you are
>> exceeding the speed limit, and may show the speed limit in the display
>> for the street you are on. Okay, but I've yet to see that work when I
>> trialed a bunch of map apps a while ago (probably over a year).

They claim the feature. They don't provide info on just where it is
available (i.e., in their map database by region, state, or city).

>> That
>> makes me wonder just how dense is their crowd sourcing their map data.

They don't provide that information.

> OpenStreetMap contributors do not just use *their* data, but also and
> even mostly, publicly available/useable data. Creating worldwide maps
> from scratch, would be impossible with just contributor data.

The problem there are contributors that use gov't street plans. The
contributors obtain this free info from their gov't (e.g., municipal
dept) on street plats. But the gov't will show streets that do not yet
exist, but are planned for later construction. That means the
contributors using this free gov't info will add streets to their map
data for non-existing streets.

For example, several years when I used some map app using the OSM
database, it showed a street along a highway that went to the city in
Florida that I wanted to go to. I missed the major turnoff from the
highway, but this street was just after a major intersection, so I
figured it would also take me toward the target city. There was even a
sign pounded into the ground pointing to the right with the city name.
It was a yet-to-be-developed road, was currently just where some
tractors had tamped down the grass, and went into a swamp. I didn't
fell like feeding the alligators that day.

Yes, the contributors were adding map data they thought was okay, but
those plats included future plans for street construction, so those
streets didn't yet exist.

> In my experience, OSM maps are of similar quality as commercial maps
> (like Google Maps, TomTom, HERE, etc.) and often better in out-of-town/
> rural/outback/remote/<whatever> areas.

Accuracy depends on the density of OSM contributors in an area to
correlate and overlap on their contributed map data. In a low density
area, there aren't enough contributors, and those that are there may not
have covered the area of interest to you.

Upon your clarification (and the osmand.net article below):
- OsmAnd Maps & GPS Offline = free, but limited feature set.
- OsmAnd+ Maps & GPS Offline = $29.99
- OsmAnd Pro = $2.99/month subscription

Since I'm already using Google Maps, I'd only be looking at similarly
ad-free and cost-free map app alternatives. Here WeGo was a very close
match on that criteria, but see next on why they became unusable, to me.

Here WeGo has a problem on my phone with showing the current location
pointer some 11 miles away from my actual current location. Could not
fix this bug with their support help.

Maps.Me has too many ads, and the free version limits downloaded maps to
10. Might be enough for me, but their UI is cluttered, and I detest
ads. Alas, finding truly ad-free apps at the Google Play Store is rare.

Mapfactor Navigator free has ads, and limited to 7 map downloads.
That's probably not the max total, but the max that can be locally
stored for offline use.

OsmAnd free (not interested in paying for a Plus or Pro version). The
matrix of differences between free and Plus/Pro versions convinces me
the free version is all I need. Yet they, too, have ads. "In-app
purchases" *are* ads. Doesn't matter if an app advertises for itself,
the author's other products, or someone else's products. They're ads.

If the ad is merely an entry in a menu (and only 1 entry) that is seen
only when looking at the menu list then the ad content is acceptable.
If an add appears anywhere else, especially if atop the map, is not
tolerable. One map app plastered a gold crown icon atop the top left
corner of the app as an add icon, plus they had an ad entry in the menu.
The latter is tolerable. The former is not.

https://osmand.net/docs/user/purchases/android/

Says free version is ad-free yet Google Play Store mentions in-app
purchases (yep, those are ads). If the ad is 1 entry in a menu or in
settings, okay. If the ad content appears more than once, or anywhere
other than as a menu entry (which would have the ad content mostly
hidden) then that's okay, too. If the ad content appears anywhere else,
it'll get uninstalled.

Oh, geez, I see there is a map download limit with OSM, too, like with
Maps.Me and other map apps using the OSM database. Perhaps OSM put a
limit of map downloads on any free map app. You pay for a map app to
get more features, like unlimited downloads, because that might give the
app author some funds to pay OSM for unlimited map access. I currently
have 3 map downloads in Google Maps (and in the previously trialed maps
apps), so that leaves me with only 4 in reserve. Also, map updates are
once per month, but those updates are 15 days old on the update. This
lag is punishment to us freeloaders for using the free app versus paying
for it. OsmAnd free might still be doable provided they don't clutter
their UI with ad(s).

Sygic has too many defects. Just trialed it, too many bugs: hangs when
close any login dialog without logging in (I'm not creating an account),
extremely slow map downloads, all of Canada and Mexico can be selected
for download but US requires 50 taps to select all states, makes my
phone so sluggish as to be unusable, no exit inside of app (have to use
its notification's "Turn Off" button), HUD mode was blank, and more
problems than I can remember right now. Simple cure: uninstall it.

Mapfactor Navigator. Since this uses the OSM database, I see no point
in using a map app other than OsmAnd should I trial it again to see if
it more accurate this time.

I'll report back if I decided to keep the OsmAnd free app.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 12:07:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
> *subscriptionware*), which are:

I don't know how you missed the really free OSMAnd+ that I referenced since
I gave you the full URL to it but somehow you managed to miss the fully
functional free OSMAnd+ (also sometimes referred to as OSMAnd~ in news).

Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org> to look at the URL.

On 16 Jun 2023 18:55:58 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> For some reason I can't scroll through the 'About this app' part at
> the moment, but there are three 'versions':

Not three versions. Four versions.

Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org> & look at the URL.

Number 4 is the same as your number 2 with only minor support differences.
The main practical difference is number 4 is free & number 2 is not free.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 22:37:09 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> I bought the "+" app some years ago (single payment), and apparently I
> have unlimited maps, but not automatic updates.

It would be useful for you to describe what you got for purchasing the "+"
when you could have gotten the same "+" app for free without purchasing it.

I searched this newsgroup and I found that the differences were described
quite a few times but summarized they seem to only be in support calls.

I may be wrong but the really free "+" version, based on what my searches
of this newsgroup found, seems to be limited in one-on-one support calls.

In some of the articles I found in my search of this newsgroup (where the
topic has come up maybe a few scores of times) people said they wanted to
pay the developer for the "+" version even though they knew it was free.

But if you wanted to donate to developers, you can always do that without
giving Google a 30% cut (unless you wanted to also donate 30% to Google).

What is your reason for paying for the "+" version instead of getting the
exact same "+" version for free? The support? Or the donation to OSMAnd?

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> For occasional (or no) use, i.e. like the OP (Ken Blake), you don't
> have to buy Skype Minutes, you can buy Skype Credit [1].
>
> Skype Credit starts as low as EUR 5 (I've EUR 10), can be set to
> top-up automatically and never expires.
>
> You can call any number anywhere for quite reasonable rates. For
> example Italy (i.e. Ken's case) is 2.4 cts/min for landline and 10.4
> cts/min for mobile (for NL users, probably similar for US users).
>
> As said elsewhere, you of course need an Internet connection - i.e.
> Wi-Fi or mobile data - to use Skype.
>
> I use it as a backup or/and for lengthly or/and overseas calls, for
> example when visiting Australia or the US.
>
> [1]
> 'Call phones and send SMS anywhere in the world at affordable prices
> with Skype Credit'
> <https://www.skype.com/en/credit>
>
> [...]

Yep, Skype Minutes has you pre-pay (you add a balance to your Skype
account against which future calls are deducted from your Google Wallet)
while Skype Credit is a pay-as-you-go setup (but you have to buy a
minimum number of minutes). Since you have to pre-pay no matter if
buying minutes by adding to a balance, or pre-paying to get a credit,
seems you're doing the same in either case. You add to Google Wallet or
you add to a credit line against which intl calls are charged.

https://www.skype.com/en/credit/

You'll need a Microsoft for either payment. However, you say unused
Skype Credit rolls over (every month?), so it might end up being cheaper
than the pre-paid minutes just vaporizing. I don't like losing quota
that I paid for.

Without a wifi connection, the OP would, as you say, still need cellular
data service, so he'd still be buying a SIM card for his phone. He'd
pay for the cellular service, but perhaps Skype's intl rates are cheaper
than whatever he gets for cellular data service.

I used to get 60 minutes per month of free (included) Skype Minutes with
an MS 365 subscription. That lasted for 5 years until I decided to stop
subscribing. In that 5 years, I think I used Skype for phone calls
maybe twice, and never used it for free Skype-to-Skype chatting. Tried
convincing family and friends to add Skype apps to their phone, or use
the web site, but none of them wanted to use Skype. Back then, I think
they were into WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:49:38 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> Upon your clarification (and the osmand.net article below):
> - OsmAnd Maps & GPS Offline = free, but limited feature set.
> - OsmAnd+ Maps & GPS Offline = $29.99
> - OsmAnd Pro = $2.99/month subscription

I ran a search and the fourth OSMAnd+ was covered many times already
on this newgroup where that fourth OSMAnd is called OSMAnd+ or OSMAnd~.

It's the same APK only it's free while the second OSMAnd+ is not free.
Take a look at the URL in Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org>.

Patron Saint <patron@saint.com> wrote:

> I don't know how you missed the really free OSMAnd+ that I referenced since
> I gave you the full URL to it but somehow you managed to miss the fully
> functional free OSMAnd+ (also sometimes referred to as OSMAnd~ in news).
>
> Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org> to look at the URL.

That does NOT point to the OsmAnd apps set. That article mentions
Mapfactor's Navigator app for which I already mentioned why I don't like
it, and won't be using it. There are several map apps that utilize the
Osm maps database. Mapfactor is one of them.

I don't know how you missed the replies to that article of yours.

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 18:53:26 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
>> I don't know how you missed the really free OSMAnd+ that I referenced since
>> I gave you the full URL to it but somehow you managed to miss the fully
>> functional free OSMAnd+ (also sometimes referred to as OSMAnd~ in news).
>>
>> Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org> to look at the URL.
>
> That does NOT point to the OsmAnd apps set. That article mentions
> Mapfactor's Navigator app for which I already mentioned why I don't like
> it, and won't be using it. There are several map apps that utilize the
> Osm maps database. Mapfactor is one of them.
>
> I don't know how you missed the replies to that article of yours.

You missed it again?
That's how many times you missed it on this ng? Maybe fifty or more times?

Must I walk you through everything that you should know just because the
first fifty times you were told this information you missed it each time?

Oh well, let's try fifty one times, ok?

First, copy this message ID into your clipboard (with the angle brackets).
<u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org>

Then paste it into the standard Usenet lookup engine that's been around for
multiple (decades so you have no excuse for not knowing about it by now).
http://al.howardknight.net/

What URL comes up for the free OSMAnd+ I already told you about?

Patron Saint <patron@saint.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 18:53:26 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> I don't know how you missed the really free OSMAnd+ that I referenced since
>>> I gave you the full URL to it but somehow you managed to miss the fully
>>> functional free OSMAnd+ (also sometimes referred to as OSMAnd~ in news).
>>>
>>> Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org> to look at the URL.
>>
>> That does NOT point to the OsmAnd apps set. That article mentions
>> Mapfactor's Navigator app for which I already mentioned why I don't like
>> it, and won't be using it. There are several map apps that utilize the
>> Osm maps database. Mapfactor is one of them.
>>
>> I don't know how you missed the replies to that article of yours.
>
> You missed it again?
> That's how many times you missed it on this ng? Maybe fifty or more times?
>
> Must I walk you through everything that you should know just because the
> first fifty times you were told this information you missed it each time?
>
> Oh well, let's try fifty one times, ok?
>
> First, copy this message ID into your clipboard (with the angle brackets).
> <u6g8nt$tunt$1@novabbs.org>
>
> Then paste it into the standard Usenet lookup engine that's been around for
> multiple (decades so you have no excuse for not knowing about it by now).
> http://al.howardknight.net/
>
> What URL comes up for the free OSMAnd+ I already told you about?

I don't have to all that shit. I can find an article in my own client
using the MID which you provided. That's your article recommending
Mapfactor Navigator. Go to that article, and look at its raw source to
see the value of the MID header. Yep, it's the one you gave.

Not only were you incorrect in Mapfactor not using OSM maps (it does),
but you neglected to note that it has ads, and is limited to 7 map
downloads in the free version.

Claim all you want that I don't know how to use Usenet. You don't know
how to specify the correct MID for whatever article you claim is the app
which you recommend. Considering you are dufus in citing the MID for
the article, here's Howard Knight's copy of your article with the MID
you specify:

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cu6g8nt%24tunt%241%40novabbs.org%3E

And, as mentioned already, that app was discussed, and dismissed.

Pretty much it has become obvious you are a troll. Your tactics are
familiar, so likely a nymshifting troll. Bye bye.