Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
authenticate any more.

This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.

Does anyone know whether Windows Live Mail V 2009 can be made to work with
the changed Gmail, and if not whether Thunderbird will work. And if I have
to change to Thunderbird, is it possible to migrate saved email messages in
various WLM folders to Thunderbird?

And what about a typical email client as supplied with a Samsung phone
running Android 8.0.0?

I really do *not* want to have to read my Gmail on webmail, separate from
all the other mailboxes on which I receive email via POP.

Yes I know WLM is very old, but it *works* and it does what I want.
Thunderbird's email capabilities seem fine, but its newsreader seems not to
see some postings which show up on WLM - including (sometimes) things that
I've just posted using Thunderbird ;-)

Gmail are recommending very recent versions of Outlook, or else the Windows
8/10 "toy" Mail app.

On Wed, 4 May 2022 15:08:56 +0100, NY wrote:
> Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
> SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
> authenticate any more.
>
> This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
> on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.
>
> Does anyone know whether Windows Live Mail V 2009 can be made to work with
> the changed Gmail, and if not whether Thunderbird will work. And if I have
> to change to Thunderbird, is it possible to migrate saved email messages in
> various WLM folders to Thunderbird?
>
> And what about a typical email client as supplied with a Samsung phone
> running Android 8.0.0?
>
> I really do *not* want to have to read my Gmail on webmail, separate from
> all the other mailboxes on which I receive email via POP.
>
> Yes I know WLM is very old, but it *works* and it does what I want.
> Thunderbird's email capabilities seem fine, but its newsreader seems not to
> see some postings which show up on WLM - including (sometimes) things that
> I've just posted using Thunderbird ;-)
>
> Gmail are recommending very recent versions of Outlook, or else the Windows
> 8/10 "toy" Mail app.

IMO, the warning that old mail applications will no longer be usable is
exaggerated.

What may no longer work are mail applications which are no longer maintained
and supported. Meaning that, they won't have new updates. So, adding support
for the new OAuth2 authentication impossible. At least directly.

Take Thunderbird for example, it has support for the new authentination
WHILE using POP3 to access email.

Meaning that, the new authentication doesn't cause or force POP3 to be
replaced with something else, or as current trend would say: "obsolete"
(sic).

POP3 can still be used, and so do existing old mail applications. As long as
there's support for the new authentication. Within the aplications, or from
outside of then applications.

The new OAuth2 authentication is completely separate from POP3. The new
authentication is just a login system which generate a temporary access
token which is used as the password for the POP3 login. In case of GMail,
the new OAuth2 authentication is provided by GMail.

FYI, the aim of this new authentication is, to prevent GMail users to give
their password to third party services, which can be used to access anything
other than users' mail. With the new authentication, the generated access
token will expire, and possibly has restricted access to users' data. e.g.
can only be used to access email.

However, for users who don't use third party services to access their email,
and only use locally installed software, the new authentication is
unnecessary since there's no third party involved.

So for old mail applications, the workaround is to use a local POP3 proxy
software with the new OAuth2 authentication support. Unfortunately, such
software is still rare. At least for those which are easy to install & use.

One example of such (not easy to install & use) software is:

https://github.com/simonrob/email-oauth2-proxy

Hopefully, more of this kind of software and those which are easy to install
& use, will exist in the near future.

On 5/4/2022 7:08 AM, NY wrote:
> Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
> SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
> authenticate any more.
>
> This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
> on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.
>
> Does anyone know whether Windows Live Mail V 2009 can be made to work with
> the changed Gmail, and if not whether Thunderbird will work. And if I have
> to change to Thunderbird, is it possible to migrate saved email messages in
> various WLM folders to Thunderbird?
>
> And what about a typical email client as supplied with a Samsung phone
> running Android 8.0.0?
>
> I really do *not* want to have to read my Gmail on webmail, separate from
> all the other mailboxes on which I receive email via POP.
>
> Yes I know WLM is very old, but it *works* and it does what I want.
> Thunderbird's email capabilities seem fine, but its newsreader seems not to
> see some postings which show up on WLM - including (sometimes) things that
> I've just posted using Thunderbird ;-)
>
>
> Gmail are recommending very recent versions of Outlook, or else the Windows
> 8/10 "toy" Mail app.
>

The real solution is to avoid using Gmail and also Yahoo mail. If you
connect to the Interent via an ISP -- a "real" ISP -- you should be
using that ISP's E-mail services.

If you do not want to change your E-mail address, you should consider
changing it only once. User-friendly ISPs allow you to use your own
domain through which you can create your own E-mail address. I have
changed ISPs three times without changing my E-mail address.

To start, subscribe to a personalized domain. (Mine costs $11 per
year.) Then notify your ISP of your chosen address. To see my address,
view the Organization header field in the raw source of this reply; or
use your browser to view <http://www.rossde.com/mail_to_me.html>.

--
David E. Ross
"A Message to Those Who Are Not Vaccinated"
See my <http://www.rossde.com/index.html#vaccine>.

On Wed, 4 May 2022 15:08:56 +0100, NY wrote:

> Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
> SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
> authenticate any more.
>
> This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
> on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.
>
> Does anyone know whether Windows Live Mail V 2009 can be made to work with
> the changed Gmail,

WLM should work if you replace your main Google/Gmail account password
in WLM with an "App Password" from Google.

To get an "App Password" from Google you must sign in to your Google
account on the web, and you must also enable 2-step verification.

REF: See the sub-heading "Use an App Password" here:
<https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6010255#zippy=%2Cuse-an-app-password>

REF: See "Sign in with App Passwords"
<https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833>

Disclaimer: I have not actually used WLM with Gmail. But I have used
other email clients from that era.

> and if not whether Thunderbird will work.

Yes, Thunderbird will work. To make Thunderbird work with Gmail,
simply set the 'Authentication Method' to "Oauth2" in server settings.

screen-shot: <http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=25_t4u1dr_oauth2-setting-in-thunderbird.png>

You will get a one-time OAuth2 registration pop-up where you must
sign in to your Google account ("One Account, All of Google").

> And if I have
> to change to Thunderbird, is it possible to migrate saved email messages in
> various WLM folders to Thunderbird?

This Thunderbird support article might help

"Switching from Windows Mail or Windows Live Mail to Thunderbird"
<https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/switching-thunderbird>

> And what about a typical email client as supplied with a Samsung phone
> running Android 8.0.0?

The Gmail app for Android will work with Gmail.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.gm>

For other email apps, if the app supports OAuth2 authentication
then use that.

If not, replace your main Google/Gmail account password in the email app
with an "App Password" from Google (as above).

> I really do *not* want to have to read my Gmail on webmail, separate from
> all the other mailboxes on which I receive email via POP.
>
> Yes I know WLM is very old, but it *works* and it does what I want.
> Thunderbird's email capabilities seem fine, but its newsreader seems not to
> see some postings which show up on WLM - including (sometimes) things that
> I've just posted using Thunderbird ;-)
>
>
> Gmail are recommending very recent versions of Outlook, or else the Windows
> 8/10 "toy" Mail app.

--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊

"David E. Ross" <nobody@notme.invalid> wrote in message
news:t4vmcv$fh5$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> The real solution is to avoid using Gmail and also Yahoo mail. If you
> connect to the Interent via an ISP -- a "real" ISP -- you should be
> using that ISP's E-mail services.

I use ISP-provided mail for personal mail, but generic Gmail for online
signup accounts where the implications of the *email* account being hacked
is relatively benign. The actual online accounts (Amazon etc) have stronger
passwords.

I've already been through the tedious process of changing my email ID for
online accounts once in my life: when my original Virgin account (dating
back to dialup) eventually ceased, many years after I stopped paying the
subscription for dialup when I migrated to a new ISP for broadband. I was
hoping that Gmail for "disposable" addresses would outlast me ;-)

On Wed, 4 May 2022 22:13:02 -0700, "David E. Ross"
<nobody@notme.invalid> wrote:

>On 5/4/2022 7:08 AM, NY wrote:
>> Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
>> SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
>> authenticate any more.
>>
>> This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
>> on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.
>>
>> Does anyone know whether Windows Live Mail V 2009 can be made to work with
>> the changed Gmail, and if not whether Thunderbird will work. And if I have
>> to change to Thunderbird, is it possible to migrate saved email messages in
>> various WLM folders to Thunderbird?
>>
>> And what about a typical email client as supplied with a Samsung phone
>> running Android 8.0.0?
>>
>> I really do *not* want to have to read my Gmail on webmail, separate from
>> all the other mailboxes on which I receive email via POP.
>>
>> Yes I know WLM is very old, but it *works* and it does what I want.
>> Thunderbird's email capabilities seem fine, but its newsreader seems not to
>> see some postings which show up on WLM - including (sometimes) things that
>> I've just posted using Thunderbird ;-)
>>
>>
>> Gmail are recommending very recent versions of Outlook, or else the Windows
>> 8/10 "toy" Mail app.
>>
>
>The real solution is to avoid using Gmail and also Yahoo mail.

I agree.

>If you
>connect to the Interent via an ISP -- a "real" ISP -- you should be
>using that ISP's E-mail services.

But I disagree with that. That's only one good way to do it. I use and
prefer a third-party e-mail service.

On Wed, 4 May 2022 15:08:56 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
>SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
>authenticate any more.
>
>This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
>on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.
>
>Does anyone know whether Windows Live Mail V 2009 can be made to work with
>the changed Gmail, and if not whether Thunderbird will work. And if I have
>to change to Thunderbird, is it possible to migrate saved email messages in
>various WLM folders to Thunderbird?
>
>And what about a typical email client as supplied with a Samsung phone
>running Android 8.0.0?
>
>I really do *not* want to have to read my Gmail on webmail, separate from
>all the other mailboxes on which I receive email via POP.
>
>Yes I know WLM is very old, but it *works* and it does what I want.
>Thunderbird's email capabilities seem fine, but its newsreader seems not to
>see some postings which show up on WLM - including (sometimes) things that
>I've just posted using Thunderbird ;-)
>
>
>Gmail are recommending very recent versions of Outlook, or else the Windows
>8/10 "toy" Mail app.

For what it is worth, Thunderbird stopped my emails to a friend about
May 1st.
I use Outlook 2010.

On 5/7/2022 18:07, swalker wrote:
> On Wed, 4 May 2022 15:08:56 +0100, "NY"<me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
>> SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
>> authenticate any more.
>>
>> This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
>> on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.

Alternatively, dump the trash Google mail service, and use a better
service. I currently use a mixture of Yahoo and MSN/Hotmail for my
e-mail needs, but I'm considering buying a domain and paying for real
e-mail hosting.

On 05/05/2022 06:13, David E. Ross wrote:
> The real solution is to avoid using Gmail and also Yahoo mail. If you
> connect to the Interent via an ISP -- a "real" ISP -- you should be
> using that ISP's E-mail services.
>
> If you do not want to change your E-mail address, you should consider
> changing it only once. User-friendly ISPs allow you to use your own
> domain through which you can create your own E-mail address. I have
> changed ISPs three times without changing my E-mail address.

I've used several different ISPs and none of them have allowed me to
just add my own domain in to their email system.

Also none of them have provided an email system that can even get near
to the great functionality of gmail.

> To start, subscribe to a personalized domain. (Mine costs $11 per
> year.) Then notify your ISP of your chosen address. To see my address,
> view the Organization header field in the raw source of this reply; or
> use your browser to view <http://www.rossde.com/mail_to_me.html>.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 5/11/22 08:31, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 06:13, David E. Ross wrote:
>> The real solution is to avoid using Gmail and also Yahoo mail.  If you
>> connect to the Interent via an ISP -- a "real" ISP -- you should be
>> using that ISP's E-mail services.
>>
>> If you do not want to change your E-mail address, you should consider
>> changing it only once.  User-friendly ISPs allow you to use your own
>> domain through which you can create your own E-mail address.  I have
>> changed ISPs three times without changing my E-mail address.
>
> I've used several different ISPs and none of them have allowed me to
> just add my own domain in to their email system.
>
> Also none of them have provided an email system that can even get near
> to the great functionality of gmail.

[snip]

I have had my own domain for 20 years. The associated hosting company
provides email, which I have been using. This has nothing to do with my
current ISP. why should it?

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"For god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that
whosoever would believe in him would believe in anything."

On 11/05/2022 18:53, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On 5/11/22 08:31, Brian Gregory wrote:
>> On 05/05/2022 06:13, David E. Ross wrote:
>>> The real solution is to avoid using Gmail and also Yahoo mail.  If you
>>> connect to the Interent via an ISP -- a "real" ISP -- you should be
>>> using that ISP's E-mail services.
>>>
>>> If you do not want to change your E-mail address, you should consider
>>> changing it only once.  User-friendly ISPs allow you to use your own
>>> domain through which you can create your own E-mail address.  I have
>>> changed ISPs three times without changing my E-mail address.
>>
>> I've used several different ISPs and none of them have allowed me to
>> just add my own domain in to their email system.
>>
>> Also none of them have provided an email system that can even get near
>> to the great functionality of gmail.
>
> [snip]
>
> I have had my own domain for 20 years. The associated hosting company
> provides email, which I have been using. This has nothing to do with my
> current ISP. why should it?
>

Okay, that's part of the reason why I was responding to David E. Ross'
message and not to yours.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 5/11/2022 1:07 PM, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 11/05/2022 18:53, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>> On 5/11/22 08:31, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>> On 05/05/2022 06:13, David E. Ross wrote:
>>>> The real solution is to avoid using Gmail and also Yahoo mail.  If you
>>>> connect to the Interent via an ISP -- a "real" ISP -- you should be
>>>> using that ISP's E-mail services.
>>>>
>>>> If you do not want to change your E-mail address, you should consider
>>>> changing it only once.  User-friendly ISPs allow you to use your own
>>>> domain through which you can create your own E-mail address.  I have
>>>> changed ISPs three times without changing my E-mail address.
>>>
>>> I've used several different ISPs and none of them have allowed me to
>>> just add my own domain in to their email system.
>>>
>>> Also none of them have provided an email system that can even get near
>>> to the great functionality of gmail.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I have had my own domain for 20 years. The associated hosting company
>> provides email, which I have been using. This has nothing to do with my
>> current ISP. why should it?
>>
>
> Okay, that's part of the reason why I was responding to David E. Ross'
> message and not to yours.

It happens that I connect to the Internet via Spectrum. That began with
Time-Warner Internet, which did not allow me to use my own domain and
which had policies regarding Web hosting that I did not like. So I also
subscribe to Sunset.net for E-mail and Web hosting, which supports my
own rossde.com domain and my 400+ pages of HTML.

Well, Spectrum bought Time-Warner Internet. Now, I cannot find anything
in Spectrum about hosting my Web site. Thus, I am still hosted by
Sunset.net. Unfortunately, Sunset.net is a regional ISP that is not in
my region and thus cannot provide a broad-band Internet connection,
which Spectrum does provide (along with my cable TV connection).

--
David E. Ross
"A Message to Those Who Are Not Vaccinated"
See my <http://www.rossde.com/index.html#vaccine>.

>On Wed, 4 May 2022 15:08:56 +0100, NY wrote:
>
>> Gmail have emailed me to say that they are imposing more stringent POP and
>> SMTP authentication rules, and that many older POP clients won't be able to
>> authenticate any more.
>>
>> This is a pain because it means I'll have to update to newer email clients
>> on my PCs, and maybe my mobile phone.
>>
>> Does anyone know whether Windows Live Mail V 2009 can be made to work with
>> the changed Gmail,

This may be a possible solution:

https://www.nips.ac.jp/~murata/o2popper/

I haven't tried it, though, or examined it in any detail.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)