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computers / news.software.nntp / Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

SubjectAuthor
* What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INNGrant Taylor
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
|+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|||+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
||| |+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| ||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
||| || `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| ||  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||| ||   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
||| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|||  `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /The Doctor
|| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|| |+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?bje
|| ||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|| `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
| |+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Jason Evans
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|  |`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /John Levine
|  | `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |  +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|  |  |+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |  |`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|  |  | `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|  |  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|  |   +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|  |   |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?32303031
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
 +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
 |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
 `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
  +- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
   `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
    `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
     `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield

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What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN
server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:54:20 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 07:54 UTC

Based on some comments in other threads, I gather that some think that
running a Usenet / NNTP / INN server has a higher entry bar than it
possibly should have.

Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
barrier of entry for you?

I ask in the spirit of hoping to collectively learn from this and
streamline / simplify Usenet / NNTP / INN server installation &
configuration.

What would you like to see changed? Ideally, what could be done without
substantively changing how a program, e.g. INN, is written / config
files are parsed.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: sys...@endofthelinebbs.com (Nigel Reed)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 02:34:19 -0600
Organization: End Of The Line BBS
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 by: Nigel Reed - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:34 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:54:20 -0700
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> Based on some comments in other threads, I gather that some think
> that running a Usenet / NNTP / INN server has a higher entry bar than
> it possibly should have.

I agree, after all it only received and sends articles between systems
and accepts user postings. How could that possibly be complicated? :)
> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
> barrier of entry for you?

There's a LOT of configuration options, an overwhelming amount for a
new usenet admin, especially when it's not as prevalent as it once was.
It took me long enough to decide which type of spool I wanted to keep.
Lots of terminology and so much documentation. Most of it tells you
what to do but not why you're doing it.

> What would you like to see changed? Ideally, what could be done
> without substantively changing how a program, e.g. INN, is written /
> config files are parsed.

I really don't know. I'm terrible at reading documentation so most of
the questions I have are probably answered. I stuck with traditional
spool because that's what I know. I just took most of the defaults.
Took me a while to get authentication going, I'm not sure there's a way
to generate passwords. Maybe a more easier step by step setup that
clearly but concisely explains the process.

Thanks for the effort into trying to make it easier. Maybe others will
have better suggestions.

--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 09:46:44 +0100
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 by: jdanield - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 08:46 UTC

Le 08/01/2022 à 08:54, Grant Taylor a écrit :
(...)
> What would you like to see changed? Ideally, what could be done without
> substantively changing how a program, e.g. INN, is written / config
> files are parsed.
>
>
>
thanks doing this.

As often it mostly is (IMHO) a documentation problem. INN documentation
is mostly old and seems to me adapted to an old config. I'm not sure
even the smaller modern config (PI?) need so much storage care.

to start, I guess *real* server admins (the ones with university grade)
do not really have problems. (if it's not, speak :-))

So I guess we should concentrate on making doc for the nntp user that
want to help his favorite media to progress and so want to get his own
usenet server.

So an nntp *user* and wanting to have a *server*, that mean at least
somebody with some concern and wanting to work, not any newbie.

At first, may be make some sort of dictionary to make more evident the
meaning of the words used in the doc

thanks
jdd

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 13:36:00 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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In-Reply-To: <20220108023419.1e902686@wibble.sysadmininc.com>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 12:36 UTC

Hi Nigel,

>> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
>> barrier of entry for you?
>
> There's a LOT of configuration options, an overwhelming amount for a
> new usenet admin, especially when it's not as prevalent as it once was.
> It took me long enough to decide which type of spool I wanted to keep.
> Lots of terminology and so much documentation. Most of it tells you
> what to do but not why you're doing it.

To be concrete, what should be changed in our FAQ that could help
choosing the right type of spool?
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/inn.html#S2.1

> I stuck with traditional
> spool because that's what I know. I just took most of the defaults.

And that's a good choice :-)
The defaults are normally fine.

> Took me a while to get authentication going, I'm not sure there's a way
> to generate passwords. Maybe a more easier step by step setup that
> clearly but concisely explains the process.

To be concrete, what should be added in the quick installation checklist
that explains the things to do to have a working installation?

https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html

We have a "Readers" section in CHECKLIST with a basic readers.conf
example and how to generate passwords :)

% htpasswd -nbd user pass
user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE

% perl -e 'print "user:".crypt("pass", "LI")."\n";'
user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. » (Laocoon de Virgile)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 13:46:08 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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In-Reply-To: <srbj1l$ev1$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 12:46 UTC

Bonjour Jean-Daniel,

> So I guess we should concentrate on making doc for the nntp user that
> want to help his favorite media to progress and so want to get his own
> usenet server.

https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/ references "Contributed
documentation".

Maybe modernized ones would be needed in English (the Usenet Rapid
Knowledge Transfer site is a bit old now for INN, but very interesting
in general information!)
http://www.mibsoftware.com/userkt/userkt.html

There's a link to a doc written in French that should normally explain
everything to set up a working news server:
https://git.alphanet.ch/gitweb/?p=inn-install/.git;a=blob_plain;f=README.html;hb=HEAD

What is missing in it? We should arrive to provide such a one-page
guide, whatever its language is. And then translate it if needed in
other languages!

Other starting points could be INN's official CHECKLIST and FAQ.
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/inn.html#S2.1

Suggestions of improvements are of course appreciated!

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Nul n'entre ici s'il n'est géomètre. » (Platon)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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 by: jdanield - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 12:53 UTC

Le 08/01/2022 à 13:36, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :

> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html

missed this one :-(. should be linked on top of "documentation" here:

https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/

(no "checklist" in this page :-()

probably a typo: "work on the files in ~news/etc" should be "work on the
files in ~news"

is the "compile" part still needed?

I know it's difficult to manage, but have a section "Configure" just
under a line with "./configure --with-perl ..." is disturbing :-(.

"If using cycbuffs (the CNFS storage method)" comes at a moment where
nobody know what cycbuffs is - nor CNFS :-(

I stopped reading here. Good idea, but have to be completely rewritten :-(

>
> We have a "Readers" section in CHECKLIST with a basic readers.conf
> example and how to generate passwords :)
>
> % htpasswd -nbd user pass
> user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE
>
> % perl -e 'print "user:".crypt("pass", "LI")."\n";'
> user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE
>

does it mean one have to use .htaccess to manage access to the forums?

thanks
jdd

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 16:16:40 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 15:16 UTC

Hi Grant,

> Based on some comments in other threads, I gather that some think that
> running a Usenet / NNTP / INN server has a higher entry bar than it
> possibly should have.
>
> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
> barrier of entry for you?

I believe the first thing one has to ask himself is: which news server
do I need?

"INN doesn't try to be the fastest possible news server, or the
simplest, and it's definitely not the easiest to configure" (from its
main description)

So, that would be the first step.
For simple needs (like a few feeds and readers), there are much more
simpler news servers to use!

Like Miquel's recent NNTP implementation in Rust:
https://github.com/miquels/nntp-rs

As for INN, if the admin's choice is for that news server, then we can
wonder what is missing in its documentation or how to make it simple
(knowing that there already are CHECKLIST, INSTALL, a FAQ, and
documented samples).

Another point could be, as I see questions about storage format, that
some not widely-used or still useful features might be considered as
removable in INN 2.7 ou 2.8.
It would simplify documentation at the same time!
For instance we could only keep tradspool and CNFS (therefore removing
timecaf and timehash) as article storage methods, and we could only keep
tradindexed and ovsqlite (therefore removing ovdb and buffindexed) as
overview storage methods. And maybe other sorts of removals.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Nul n'entre ici s'il n'est géomètre. » (Platon)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: thh...@thh.name (Thomas Hochstein)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 16:24:27 +0100
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 by: Thomas Hochstein - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 15:24 UTC

Grant Taylor schrieb:

> Based on some comments in other threads, I gather that some think that
> running a Usenet / NNTP / INN server has a higher entry bar than it
> possibly should have.
>
> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
> barrier of entry for you?

Even as someone who had been using Usenet quite intensively for a few
years by then, setting up my own first "real" (i.e. peering) INN server
was no easy task for me. The main problem was to get an overview of how
the individual components interact, i.e. the flow of articles from peers
and posters into INN, from there into the storage system and then from
there back out to the peers, and what role the individual programs that
make up the INN distribution and their configuration files play. The
documentation of those individual parts is absolutely exemplary, but I
missed an overview of the big picture.

In my opinion, you need two things to set up and run INN:

1. A tutorial on how to set up the server for the first time

The problems I encountered at that time (~ 2005/2010) were, on the one
hand, the different paths, file owners/permissions and calling
conventions between an INN compiled from source and different Linux
distributions; on the other hand, many (older) tutorials found on the
net assumed that INN should be configured as a local server behind a
dial-up line or a reader account and connected via, for example, suck.

At that time, Kris Köhntopp's instructions were really helpful:
<https://web.archive.org/web/20120126105104/http://kris.koehntopp.de/artikel/usenet/>
(German language)

2. An overview, perhaps even including a few diagrams, of how all the
individual programss and their configuration files fit together and
interact.

I tried to do that in 2005:

<https://th-h.de/net/usenet/servers/inn/overview/> (German language)

After that you need ...

3. recipes for certain tasks and situations,

.... but that is the typical task of a FAQ, and the FAQ can be expanded
as needed for that.

> I ask in the spirit of hoping to collectively learn from this and
> streamline / simplify Usenet / NNTP / INN server installation &
> configuration.
>
> What would you like to see changed? Ideally, what could be done without
> substantively changing how a program, e.g. INN, is written / config
> files are parsed.

See above:

An installation tutorial (yes, there is one in INSTALL, kind of) and an
overview of how INN works, in addition to the man pages.

-thh

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: thh...@thh.name (Thomas Hochstein)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 16:25:44 +0100
Message-ID: <nsn.20220108162542.89@scatha.ancalagon.de>
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 by: Thomas Hochstein - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 15:25 UTC

I wrote:

> An installation tutorial (yes, there is one in INSTALL, kind of)

And in <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html>;
perhaps that just needs some more prominent display?

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: jsev...@mailfence.com (Jason Evans)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 15:32:00 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Jason Evans - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 15:32 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:54:20 -0700, Grant Taylor wrote:

> What would you like to see changed? Ideally, what could be done without
> substantively changing how a program, e.g. INN, is written / config
> files are parsed.

Hi Grant,

The day to day running is quite easy but getting started was a pain in the
rear. I know Russ et al. work hard on their documentation, but it wasn't
an easy set up. It took a couple of days to get everything working and
that was before I asked for peers. I'm not a Linux newbie but it was not
easy to set up.

Here's an example, I had to post here asking for help getting external
user access set up. The directions that I needed were in a man page that I
didn't even know that I needed to read. It works now and I'm posting from
my account. However I am still running on port 119 because I never could
getting SSL working. I still can't get my signed certificates to be
recognized and port 563 activated. Since my server is only for me and my
friends, I'm not terribly worried about security, but it would be nice to
get that working.

A series of walkthroughs (video or otherwise) explaining how to set up INN
would be a great help.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:32:42 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: NetKnow News
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Originator: doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor)
 by: The Doctor - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:32 UTC

In article <src0fg$1kvl1$1@news.trigofacile.com>,
Julien � LIE <iulius@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid> wrote:
>Hi Nigel,
>
>>> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
>>> barrier of entry for you?
>>
>> There's a LOT of configuration options, an overwhelming amount for a
>> new usenet admin, especially when it's not as prevalent as it once was.
>> It took me long enough to decide which type of spool I wanted to keep.
>> Lots of terminology and so much documentation. Most of it tells you
>> what to do but not why you're doing it.
>
>To be concrete, what should be changed in our FAQ that could help
>choosing the right type of spool?
> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/inn.html#S2.1
>
>
>> I stuck with traditional
>> spool because that's what I know. I just took most of the defaults.
>
>And that's a good choice :-)
>The defaults are normally fine.
>
>
>> Took me a while to get authentication going, I'm not sure there's a way
>> to generate passwords. Maybe a more easier step by step setup that
>> clearly but concisely explains the process.
>
>To be concrete, what should be added in the quick installation checklist
>that explains the things to do to have a working installation?
>
> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html
>
>We have a "Readers" section in CHECKLIST with a basic readers.conf
>example and how to generate passwords :)
>
> % htpasswd -nbd user pass
> user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE
>
> % perl -e 'print "user:".crypt("pass", "LI")."\n";'
> user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE
>

Can Readers use a system PAssword File?

>--
>Julien ÉLIE
>
>« Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. » (Laocoon de Virgile)

--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
Birthdate 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England Beware https://mindspring.com

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 09:41:34 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:41 UTC

doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) writes:

> Can Readers use a system PAssword File?

Yes, that's the default behavior of ckpasswd. It uses PAM to do that,
though, so you have to be on an operating system that supports PAM. (I
forget the status of PAM on the BSDs; last time I looked at it, it was a
bit weird and didn't really work like PAM elsewhere, but this was about
ten years ago.)

readers.conf is the part of INN that I'm probably the least happy with
apart from the build system (which I really need to get back to working
on in time for a 2.7 release). It separates authentication and
authorization, which is great in theory and I approve as a security
person, but at the cost of being essentially incomprehensible to anyone
who isn't familiar with enterprise authentication concepts and why you
would separate identity mapping from access control.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
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 by: bje...@ripco.com - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 19:42 UTC

Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:

> readers.conf is the part of INN that I'm probably the least happy with
> apart from the build system (which I really need to get back to working
> on in time for a 2.7 release). It separates authentication and
> authorization, which is great in theory and I approve as a security
> person, but at the cost of being essentially incomprehensible to anyone
> who isn't familiar with enterprise authentication concepts and why you
> would separate identity mapping from access control.

That one I totally agree with.

I always end up trial and error when adding or making a change to
reader.conf becuase that never made any fucking sense to me at all.

None of it, even after reading the man page for the past 20 years or so.

-bruce
bje@ripco.com

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2022 12:14:44 -0800
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 20:14 UTC

bje@ripco.com writes:

> That one I totally agree with.

> I always end up trial and error when adding or making a change to
> reader.conf becuase that never made any fucking sense to me at all.

> None of it, even after reading the man page for the past 20 years or so.

The basic theory of readers.conf is that it's trying to enable support for
a completely generic and pluggable enterprise authentication pipeline.

A reader connects and this connection is then passed to the authentication
system, which analyzes the available information about the connection and
assigns an identity to it. Then, that identity is passed to the
authorization system, which maps identities to sets of privileges that
control what they can do on the server.

If the user does something to change their authentication status, such as
an AUTHINFO command, that goes back to the authentication system, which
assigns a new identity using the updated information, and then the
authorization system runs again to assign new privileges.

It's made worse by the fact that every step of this is very generic, so a
given server can support, e.g., five different ways to authenticate that
are checked against different databases, and there's an additional layer
of complexity where you can assign a vector as an identity to the user
instead of just a string and thus limit which authorization groups will
match. (This is not the terminology that readers.conf uses, but that's
what the "key" parameter effectively does.)

If you're doing a mathematical model of authorization systems, this is all
very sensible, but except for people who spend a lot of time working with
IAM systems, this is just not how they think about the problem at all.
They want to let a user do things, and they want to configure a, singular,
way that users authenticate, and everything else is advanced and should be
hidden behind something you don't have to think about unless you need it.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

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 by: meff - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 21:55 UTC

On 2022-01-08, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> my account. However I am still running on port 119 because I never could
> getting SSL working. I still can't get my signed certificates to be
> recognized and port 563 activated. Since my server is only for me and my

As a hack, at least to get it working, I wonder if you could use
stunnel to offer a TLS listener on 563.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
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 by: meff - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 21:56 UTC

On 2022-01-08, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> A series of walkthroughs (video or otherwise) explaining how to set up INN
> would be a great help.

Also I'd like to second this. A series of walkthroughs explaining the
*why* and not just the *how* would be great.

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
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 by: meff - Sat, 8 Jan 2022 22:23 UTC

A couple things that stood out to me:
1. I only found out about the Checklist in this thread. I naturally
went straight for the README and INSTALL first because they were at
the top of the list of docs.

2. The "Choosing an article storage format" section seems a bit
unnecessary for most folks. There's just enough detail to know that
there's alternatives to things like "tradspool", but not enough to
know exactly what benefits are offered by something like "cnfs". The
"nerdy layperson" in me is confused at the choice, the engineer in me
wants to know just how much faster under what conditions an allocated
buffer as in cnfs is than tradspool, especially on newer filesystems
and SSDs.

3. The "Overview Storage Mechanism" section also seems a bit
overkill. The layperson in me would skim the section and pick
"tradindexed" because "traditional" sounds conservative and easy? The
engineer in me again wonders under which conditions I would pick one
or the other. I went with ovsqlite because I'm familiar with the
performance and guarantees of sqlite.

4. The syntax for the different files is confusing. It's like I'm
learning a new config DSL for each thing.

5. I'm unclear as to why Perl and Python are compiled into INN for
filter usage. Is it to avoid spawning a Perl or Python subprocess when
running filters? How does this work?

At a high-level I'd like a couple things:

1. An opinionated guide on setting up INN that picks sane defaults
based on today's filesystems, SSDs, and networking assumptions. Folks
interested in UUCP can certainly read about integrating rmail, but
most folks setting up INN will just want NNTP support. I also don't
know how hard it is for a modern computer/VPS to handle Usenet levels
of traffic, so I'm unsure on how careful the operator needs to be when
picking the article storage format or the overview storage mechanism.

2. An architectural explanation on how INN works. Sometimes I struggle
to see why a decision/feature is there. I'm sure there's good reason
(essential complexity is what software is all about), but as a
technically minded person I feel the guides are too complicated for
the layperson but not detailed enough for a technical person.

3. A clearer explanation on how filters work and why you'd even need
filters.

I recognize some of these things are also complicated by how much
filtering upstream news servers are doing and how much filtering is
occurring in individual newsreaders. I think talking about these
tradeoffs would also make for an interesting document.

In general, there seems to be a lot of ways of doing many things, and
when you're new to Usenet, it's hard to understand why you would do
one thing or another.

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:10:00 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:10 UTC

On 1/8/22 12:54 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
> barrier of entry for you?

Oh wow! Thank you!!! I'm overwhelmed at the constructive responses
that I'm seeing to my question.

Aside: I think all of the responses that I've read demonstrate how this
community /wants/ to help people and /grow/ the community. I tip my hat
to all of you.

I've read all the responses and want to respond to some specific points
in specific messages. I will do that as relies thereto.

The biggest most common theme that I'm seeing is related to
documentation, particularly for new / first time news administrators.
With this in mind, I wonder if a "First Server" / "New Newsmaster" type
document might be in order. Something that provides suggestions on how
to get started with your first server. E.e.

--8<--
Start with traditional spool (tradspool), but know that there various
other options with their own pros and cons, refer to <bla> section of
<blabla> man page for more details on the options.
-->8--

The other very big thing that I think needs to be provided is a high
level overview of Usenet, NNTP, and news servers in general. There are
a LOT of domain specific terms and knowledge that are quite likely new
to a new newsmaster as they are setting up their first server. -- I'm
personally building a database that I use as a glossary that I put words
in with a terse description and a reference for where to find more.

Neither of these documents need, nor should, be an end all be all
document. Especially the "First Server" / "New Newsmaster" document
should be more of a boot strap type document. There will be things that
may be sub-optimal from a performance point of view, but chosen because
they have a lower barrier to entry while suggesting to check things out
again at some point in the future.

Now to respond to the many good comments.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:20:11 -0700
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:20 UTC

On 1/8/22 5:53 AM, jdanield wrote:
> is the "compile" part still needed?

I doubt that many people need the compliation part of the documentation.
But I do think that it should be maintained. Maybe it should be it's
own sub-document.

> I know it's difficult to manage, but have a section "Configure" just
> under a line with "./configure --with-perl ..." is disturbing :-(.

Without having recently looked at the documentation, there's two
different meanings of "configure". There's configuration of the source
code and how it will be compiled and there is configuration of how what
was compiled is supposed to operate. Both are "configuration" of
something. But what they are configuring is related but decisively
different.

> "If using cycbuffs (the CNFS storage method)" comes at a moment where
> nobody know what cycbuffs is - nor CNFS :-(

Ya. Bootstrap documentation such that things are introduced / defined
before they are referenced is ... difficult. It's almost always
extremely long compared to more dense documentation that assumes prior
knowledge of a specific concept.

> does it mean one have to use .htaccess to manage access to the forums?

I feel like "htpasswd" is a bit of a name collision. My understanding
is that INN is re-using a (presumed to be) standard utility.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:30:40 -0700
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:30 UTC

On 1/8/22 10:41 AM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> readers.conf is the part of INN that I'm probably the least happy
> with.... It separates authentication and authorization, ... but at
> the cost of being essentially incomprehensible to anyone who isn't
> familiar with enterprise authentication concepts and why you would
> separate identity mapping from access control.

I think that a simpler security 101 type overview from 10,000 feet might
help.

E.g. "we separate authentication from authorization to provide
flexibility in how clients authenticate and control what they access"
.... "we can allow clients to authenticate based on their IP address and
/ or based on credentials that they provide" ... "this allows Alice to
trust Bob when he uses his company notebook in office based on IP or by
his credentials when outside the office".

I often find that much documentation gets mired down in the minutia
instead of answering what should be done at a higher level. I
personally like "Because of <reason> we suggest you do <bla>." quickly
followed by "<bla> is accomplished by <blablabla>."

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:35:12 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:35 UTC

On 1/8/22 1:46 AM, jdanield wrote:
> I'm not sure even the smaller modern config (PI?) need so much storage care.
>
> to start, I guess *real* server admins (the ones with university grade)
> do not really have problems. (if it's not, speak :-))

I'm not a real server admin then. No degrees nor any certifications to
my name. But I've attended Water Cooler U and / or School of Hard
Knocks many times over my career.

> So I guess we should concentrate on making doc for the nntp user that
> want to help his favorite media to progress and so want to get his own
> usenet server.

Yes. I believe that the "First Server" / "New Newsmaster" document
space could use some help. (See my reply to myself a few minutes ago
for more details.)

> At first, may be make some sort of dictionary to make more evident the
> meaning of the words used in the doc

I believe that a glossary helps significantly.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:38:58 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:38 UTC

On 1/8/22 1:46 AM, jdanield wrote:
> I'm not sure even the smaller modern config (PI?) need so much storage care.

I got distracted and hit send too soon.

I wouldn't want to put a Usenet spool, especially tradspool, on an SD card.

Maybe I'm more cynical about SD cards than I should be. But I'd want an
SSD or spinning rust to hold a Usenet news spool.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2022 17:50:57 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 00:50 UTC

On 1/8/22 8:32 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
> Hi Grant,

Hi Jason,

> The day to day running is quite easy but getting started was a pain
> in the rear. I know Russ et al. work hard on their documentation, but
> it wasn't an easy set up. It took a couple of days to get everything
> working and that was before I asked for peers. I'm not a Linux newbie
> but it was not easy to set up.

I agree that Usenet / INN is not easy by any stretch of the imagination.
Especially with all the new, likely foreign, never seen before
concepts that are involved. Usenet really is it's own critter compared
to other Internet based services. And that's assuming TCP/IP and
doesn't speak to UUCP!!!

> Here's an example, I had to post here asking for help getting
> external user access set up. The directions that I needed were in a
> man page that I didn't even know that I needed to read.

I mostly think that man pages are a great form of reference when you
have an idea what you're looking for, but they make terrible
introduction material.

> It works now and I'm posting from my account.

:-)

> However I am still running on port 119 because I never could getting
> SSL working. I still can't get my signed certificates to be recognized
> and port 563 activated. Since my server is only for me and my friends,
> I'm not terribly worried about security, but it would be nice to get
> that working.

Ya. TLS support for INN is ... let's go with a work in progress.

I've gotten 563 working for clients. (That plural is really my own
systems.) Peers still use 119. See some recent threads for more details.

> A series of walkthroughs (video or otherwise) explaining how to set
> up INN would be a great help.

I'm personally not a fan of videos. But textual walk through, sure.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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 by: Nigel Reed - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 08:40 UTC

On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:54:20 -0700
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

It also took me a while to find peers. I emailed many and got a few
responses. Now I know to look in news.admin.peering. Maybe a mention
there along with a possible list of willing news admins who are willing
to work with new newsmasters and help become their first peer. Having
to setup 3 separate files and making sure they're all right could be
somewhat daunting to a new news admin.

--
End Of The Line BBS - Plano, TX
telnet endofthelinebbs.com 23

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

<srea6u$c4j$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=450&group=news.software.nntp#450

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 10:34:22 +0100
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 by: jdanield - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 09:34 UTC

Le 09/01/2022 à 09:40, Nigel Reed a écrit :
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2022 00:54:20 -0700
> Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>
> It also took me a while to find peers. I emailed many and got a few
> responses. Now I know to look in news.admin.peering. Maybe a mention
> there along with a possible list of willing news admins who are willing
> to work with new newsmasters and help become their first peer.

good idea. I was (and still be) thrilled to make a bad config that could
disturb other servers :-(

Having
> to setup 3 separate files and making sure they're all right could be
> somewhat daunting to a new news admin.
>

daunting is a bit big, but unquiet, yes.

I just read the grep manual to use

~news> grep -A5 "domain" *

to check files.

inncheck is very good, but having way to debug an install is very important

http://dodin.me/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.ConfigurerINN-2021#toc-8

jdd

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