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computers / comp.sys.apple2 / ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

SubjectAuthor
* ProTERM to Raspberry PiTim Riker
`* Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiJerry Penner
 `* Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiTim Riker
  +* Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiD Finnigan
  |+- Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiTim Riker
  |`* Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Piscott
  | +* Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiTim Riker
  | |`- Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiJerry Penner
  | `- Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiGreg Wildman
  `- Re: ProTERM to Raspberry PiJerry Penner

1
ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<30766784-18bd-4f94-8141-c7cc7d4d4d1fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
From: timri...@gmail.com (Tim Riker)
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 by: Tim Riker - Mon, 18 Jul 2022 22:39 UTC

I dug out my Apple //e Enhanced, dual floppy, Super Serial Card, green monitor. I wanted to see if I could connect it to my Raspberry Pi. I installed ADTPro on the Pi

https://github.com/ADTPro/adtpro/releases

I'm running it under openjdk-11 on Raspbian buster. It will transfer disks at 115200 over serial.

I shutdown ADTPro, after making ProTERM 3.1 boot/program disks off:

https://ftp.apple.asimov.net/images/communications/proterm/

But they failed to boot. I upgraded the ProDOS on them, and got the terminal running. Connecting over 19200 8N1 works to an agetty started on the Pi.

My question is: It does not look like hardware CTS/RTS is working. Should this work over a usb/serial adapter? Mine shows up as:

Bus 001 Device 010: ID 1a86:7523 QinHeng Electronics HL-340 USB-Serial adapter

I see a few comments around about ProTERM at 115200. Is this really possible?

It would be nice if I didn't have to swap/flip disks in ProTERM. Is there a single disk version around that does not need swapping? smaller BASIC, or no BASIC, smaller newer ProDOS, etc.

I'd like ProTERM to boot up in vt-100 and at the correct speed.

There are other terminal types supported on the Pi, including "appleIIe" so I wonder if there is a better terminal to emulate. ProTERM vt-100 uses Solid-Apple+cursors to send vt100 cursors. It would be nice if it would send vt100 cursors by default when at the terminal, and still work with apple cursors in the menus.

I understand ProTERM supports the Apple Mouse on an Apple //e. Does anyone know where to get or create a mouse for the //e?

w3m in a login shell and I can browse the web from the //e. Right next to it is the Pi running emulationstation with the apple2 emulator loaded so I can run Lode Runner on the Pi.

Is there a better place to discuss Apple//e topics than this group? A lot of spam in here.

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<yubo7xln3f1.fsf@jpen.ca>

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From: jerry...@jpen.ca (Jerry Penner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2022 22:15:46 -0600
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Jerry Penner - Tue, 19 Jul 2022 04:15 UTC

Tim Riker <timriker@gmail.com> writes:

> I dug out my Apple //e Enhanced, dual floppy, Super Serial Card, green monitor. I wanted
> to see if I could connect it to my Raspberry Pi. I installed ADTPro on the Pi
>
> https://github.com/ADTPro/adtpro/releases
>
> I'm running it under openjdk-11 on Raspbian buster. It will transfer disks at 115200 over serial.
>
> I shutdown ADTPro, after making ProTERM 3.1 boot/program disks off:
>
> https://ftp.apple.asimov.net/images/communications/proterm/
>
> But they failed to boot. I upgraded the ProDOS on them, and got the terminal
> running. Connecting over 19200 8N1 works to an agetty started on the Pi.
>
> My question is: It does not look like hardware CTS/RTS is working. Should this work over a
> usb/serial adapter? Mine shows up as:
>
> Bus 001 Device 010: ID 1a86:7523 QinHeng Electronics HL-340 USB-Serial adapter
>
> I see a few comments around about ProTERM at 115200. Is this really possible?
>
> It would be nice if I didn't have to swap/flip disks in ProTERM. Is there a single disk
> version around that does not need swapping? smaller BASIC, or no BASIC, smaller newer
> ProDOS, etc.
>
> I'd like ProTERM to boot up in vt-100 and at the correct speed.
>
> There are other terminal types supported on the Pi, including "appleIIe" so I wonder if
> there is a better terminal to emulate. ProTERM vt-100 uses Solid-Apple+cursors to send
> vt100 cursors. It would be nice if it would send vt100 cursors by default when at the
> terminal, and still work with apple cursors in the menus.
>
> I understand ProTERM supports the Apple Mouse on an Apple //e. Does anyone know where to get or create a mouse for the //e?

I converted a USB wheel mouse to work with the DIN-9 Apple //e mouse
card. I removed the USB driver chip that read the signals from the
phototransistor/LED pairs for the X- and Y-axes and routed them to the X
and Y inputs. The phototransistors output the supply voltage (+5V) when they
detect light, which is perfect for the Apple mouse card.

The button on the mouse was the wrong sense (active-high), so I inverted
it using a pull-down 10kΩ resistor. That's the value I've seen in Apple
circuits for similar functions, and it worked well.

I don't have a schematic handy, but that's how it can be done. It does
depend on what you've got for a mouse. The optical mice encode
everything within their controller chips, and output USB data, so that
makes it much harder to use them.

> w3m in a login shell and I can browse the web from the //e. Right next to it is the Pi
> running emulationstation with the apple2 emulator loaded so I can run Lode Runner on the
> Pi.
>
> Is there a better place to discuss Apple//e topics than this group? A lot of spam in here.

It's not so bad most of the time. Or maybe my kill/score-files are just
keeping the junk out of my sight.

--
--
Jerry jerry+a2 at jpen.ca

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<a532c462-0dc2-40aa-99df-8f2c46f23d10n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
From: timri...@gmail.com (Tim Riker)
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 by: Tim Riker - Tue, 19 Jul 2022 05:42 UTC

On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 10:15:36 PM UTC-6, Jerry Penner wrote:
> I converted a USB wheel mouse to work with the DIN-9 Apple //e mouse
> card. I removed the USB driver chip that read the signals from the
> phototransistor/LED pairs for the X- and Y-axes and routed them to the X
> and Y inputs. The phototransistors output the supply voltage (+5V) when they
> detect light, which is perfect for the Apple mouse card.
>
> The button on the mouse was the wrong sense (active-high), so I inverted
> it using a pull-down 10kΩ resistor. That's the value I've seen in Apple
> circuits for similar functions, and it worked well.
>
> I don't have a schematic handy, but that's how it can be done. It does
> depend on what you've got for a mouse. The optical mice encode
> everything within their controller chips, and output USB data, so that
> makes it much harder to use them.

Thanks for the reply!

If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the difference between moving right and moving left, for example?

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<dog_cow-1658261246@macgui.com>

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From: dog_...@macgui.com (D Finnigan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2022 20:07:27 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: D Finnigan - Tue, 19 Jul 2022 20:07 UTC

Tim Riker wrote:
>
> If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to
> start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what
> the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the difference
> between
> moving right and moving left, for example?
>

Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple II FAQ.
Check out Q/A # 33 here:
https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg

--
]DF$
The New Apple II User's Guide:
https://macgui.com/newa2guide/

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<aa2ed565-aa1c-487e-9320-a00703be60f7n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
From: timri...@gmail.com (Tim Riker)
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 by: Tim Riker - Tue, 19 Jul 2022 20:15 UTC

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 2:07:29 PM UTC-6, D Finnigan wrote:
> Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple II FAQ.
> Check out Q/A # 33 here:
> https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg

Ah! Site is down, but I found it on archive.org. I thought the connector on a //e would support a mouse, but his details indicate it does not. On a //e I would need a mouse card before I could have a mouse. Ah well. Thanks!

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<yubilnsmonj.fsf@jpen.ca>

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From: jerry...@jpen.ca (Jerry Penner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2022 21:46:56 -0600
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Jerry Penner - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 03:46 UTC

Tim Riker <timriker@gmail.com> writes:

> On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 10:15:36 PM UTC-6, Jerry Penner wrote:
>> I converted a USB wheel mouse to work with the DIN-9 Apple //e mouse
>> card. I removed the USB driver chip that read the signals from the
>> phototransistor/LED pairs for the X- and Y-axes and routed them to the X
>> and Y inputs. The phototransistors output the supply voltage (+5V) when they
>> detect light, which is perfect for the Apple mouse card.
>>
>> The button on the mouse was the wrong sense (active-high), so I inverted
>> it using a pull-down 10kΩ resistor. That's the value I've seen in Apple
>> circuits for similar functions, and it worked well.
>>
>> I don't have a schematic handy, but that's how it can be done. It does
>> depend on what you've got for a mouse. The optical mice encode
>> everything within their controller chips, and output USB data, so that
>> makes it much harder to use them.
>
> Thanks for the reply!
>
> If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to start? Is your
> converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what the Apple is expecting as a
> signal. How does it know the difference between moving right and moving left, for example?

If you can find any mouse with a ball in it (I should have said that in
my first reply), I would bet you can make it work.

Optical mice typically have a single chip that talks USB, processes the
image from a very small optical scanner, and produces the mouse-protocol
data to the host computer via USB. I wouldn't say it's impossible to
make this work, but it's way harder than what I did. It might be
impossible, but I don't know. Someone might have more patience to try
than I.

To answer your question about how the Apple knows if you're moving left
or right (or up or down), here is the AppleMouse connector's pinout:

| Pin | Name | Description |
|-----|----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| 1 | /MOUSEID | Active-low, disables hand-controller timer. Tie to ground for mouse. |
| 2 | VCC +5V | Power. |
| 3 | GND | Ground. |
| 4 | XDIR | Mouse x-direction indicator. |
| 5 | XMOVE | Mouse X-movement indicator. 90° out of phase w.r.t. XDIR. |
| 6 | n.c. | Not connected. |
| 7 | /MSWITCH | Mouse button, active-low. |
| 8 | YDIR | Mouse Y-direction indicator. |
| 9 | YMOVE | Mouse Y-movement interrupt. 90° out of phase w.r.t. YDIR. |

Each axis has two pins: whether or not there is movement, and if there
is, which direction it's going.

The phototransistors on my mouse have two outputs for each axis,
generating a four-valued signal (quadrature) and I just had to hook them
up to the appropriate XDIR, XMOVE and YDIR, YMOVE pins. On my first
try, the mouse moved up and down fine, but reversed from left to right,
so I had the XDIR and XMOVE signals mixed up. All the signals are TTL
(0-5V) levels.

Another note about my mouse hack: at first I left the USB driver chip
on the mouse circuit board. The mouse signals sent to the IIe were very
erratic. I suspected that the chip was messing with the signals
somehow. When I removed the chip entirely, it worked perfectly. I
don't have an oscilloscope, otherwise I would have taken a look at the
signal lines to see what that chip was doing to them.

--
Jerry jerry+a2 at jpen.ca

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<1CVBK.154396$eQ5.111875@fx08.iad>

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From: sco...@alfter.diespammersdie.us
Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
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 by: sco...@alfter.diespammersdie.us - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 15:57 UTC

D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
> Tim Riker wrote:
>>
>> If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier place to
>> start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not sure what
>> the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the difference
>> between
>> moving right and moving left, for example?
>>
>
> Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple II FAQ.
> Check out Q/A # 33 here:
> https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg

....and of course the 19-year-old link within doesn't work, and the Internet
Archive throws up an error when I ask it for
http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz.

I suspect it still requires a mouse card, which will likely be harder to
come by than the mouse, as the early 9-pin mouse was used by the Mac Plus
(and earlier models) as well as the IIe (and IIc?), while the mouse card was
only needed for the IIe.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

<af54d1e7-e769-4b54-acbc-a2d4273ebe04n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
From: timri...@gmail.com (Tim Riker)
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 by: Tim Riker - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 18:44 UTC

On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 9:57:52 AM UTC-6, sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
> I suspect it still requires a mouse card, which will likely be harder to
> come by than the mouse, as the early 9-pin mouse was used by the Mac Plus
> (and earlier models) as well as the IIe (and IIc?), while the mouse card was
> only needed for the IIe.

Yes, it still requires a mouse card, which I don't have. I thought the connection on the //e supported a mouse or a joystick, but I was incorrect. One the //e it only supports a joystick.

I don't have a mouse card, so I guess I won't be trying to build/acquire a mouse. :(

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

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From: jerry...@jpen.ca (Jerry Penner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2022 21:58:20 -0600
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 by: Jerry Penner - Thu, 21 Jul 2022 03:58 UTC

Tim Riker <timriker@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 9:57:52 AM UTC-6, sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
>> I suspect it still requires a mouse card, which will likely be harder to
>> come by than the mouse, as the early 9-pin mouse was used by the Mac Plus
>> (and earlier models) as well as the IIe (and IIc?), while the mouse card was
>> only needed for the IIe.
>
> Yes, it still requires a mouse card, which I don't have. I thought the connection on the
> //e supported a mouse or a joystick, but I was incorrect. One the //e it only supports a
> joystick.
>
> I don't have a mouse card, so I guess I won't be trying to build/acquire a mouse. :(

Yes, that's a problem. :/

A few years ago I acquired a //e with a mouse card, but no mouse. So
last year I did surgery on a PC ball-mouse and made it work with the //e
mouse card. I played a bit with DazzleDraw and the mouse, but I
probably won't use it much anymore. Building it was more fun than
playing with it. Sort of like Lego. ;)

--
--
Jerry jerry+a2 at jpen.ca

Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi

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From: gre...@apple2.org.za (Greg Wildman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: ProTERM to Raspberry Pi
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:29:06 +0200
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 by: Greg Wildman - Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:29 UTC

On Wed, 2022-07-20 at 15:57 +0000, scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us
wrote:
> D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
> > Tim Riker wrote:
> > >
> > > If I can find a PC bus mouse / serial mouse, is that an easier
> > > place to
> > > start? Is your converted mouse an optical or ball mouse? I'm not
> > > sure what
> > > the Apple is expecting as a signal. How does it know the
> > > difference
> > > between
> > > moving right and moving left, for example?
> > >
> >
> > Someone made an adapter many years ago. It's mentioned on the Apple
> > II FAQ.
> > Check out Q/A # 33 here:
> > https://macgui.com/usenet/?group=1&id=249042#msg
>
> ...and of course the 19-year-old link within doesn't work, and the
> Internet
> Archive throws up an error when I ask it for
> http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz.

Quick search found this

https://roger.geek.nz/mouse.html

--
Greg

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