I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted. Pre-installed
fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the rear.
Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the case and
two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the case's
removable front panel Looks like that space though is not designed
well because the side of the cage facing the front panel is pretty much
solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm
not an engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec specs
indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.

I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel. My
question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best cooling
effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air from the
outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I set it up to
blow the air from inside the case into the room?

Thanks,
John

Yes wrote:

> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted. Pre-installed
> fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the rear.
> Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the case and
> two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the case's
> removable front panel Looks like that space though is not designed
> well because the side of the cage facing the front panel is pretty
> much solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely into the
> space. I'm not an engineer, so that could be a mispection on my
> part. Antec specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>
> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel. My
> question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best
> cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air
> from the outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I
> set it up to blow the air from inside the case into the room?
>
> Thanks,
> John

Edit - meant 3.5" bays, not 3.25" Sorry for any confusion

On 2021-10-16 2:07 p.m., Yes wrote:
> Yes wrote:
>
>> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted. Pre-installed
>> fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the rear.
>> Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the case and
>> two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the case's
>> removable front panel Looks like that space though is not designed
>> well because the side of the cage facing the front panel is pretty
>> much solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely into the
>> space. I'm not an engineer, so that could be a mispection on my
>> part. Antec specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>>
>> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel. My
>> question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best
>> cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air
>> from the outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I
>> set it up to blow the air from inside the case into the room?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John
>
> Edit - meant 3.5" bays, not 3.25" Sorry for any confusion
>

Not having used that particular case but through experience with many
builds I find that the best airflow pattern is obtained with A front
and rear fan system. the front fan drawing in ambient room air and the
rear fan exhausting hot air, I find the front fan mounted in the lowest
position works best, The top fan is a help in exhausting warm air at the
top of the case. I have never found side fans to be very beneficial on
the builds that i used them on.

Rene

Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:

> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted. Pre-installed
> fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the rear.
> Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the case and
> two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the case's
> removable front panel Looks like that space though is not designed
> well because the side of the cage facing the front panel is pretty much
> solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm
> not an engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec specs
> indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>
> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel. My
> question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best cooling
> effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air from the
> outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I set it up to
> blow the air from inside the case into the room?

Have the side case fan blow in the same direction as the fan atop the
heatsink for the CPU. Blowing in opposite directions (or sucking in
opposite directions) means the fans compete with each other, so air flow
will get reduced.

Since the primary component to cool on the mobo in line with the side
case fan is the CPU, some cases even include a collapsible shroud for
the panel fan. It keeps the case fan's airflow over the area with the
CPU. Unless wrongly oriented (opposite of the fan on the CPU), it
doesn't help push more air down on the CPU, but helps to flush out the
air that was expelled out the heatsink that got warmed when passed over
the CPU. The shroud is only needed if you have a fat (wide) case which
puts the case fan further away, or the fan is mounted outside the case
(perhaps with a grill for protection) instead of inside. The case I had
with the shroud made it collapsible, so it could be slid to the right
thickness to accomodate low to medium height HSFs. If you're using a
huge HSF, you probably cannot use a shroud, and it wouldn't be
necessary. In fact, if you get an overly tall HSF, you might not be
able to mount a case fan inside the panel.

https://www.newegg.com/p/0ZK-0FNN-00003

That's just one example of a shroud. Mine had 2 pieces to the shroud:
one affixed to the base that screwed onto the side panel, and a sliding
part to adjust for the gap between side panel and case fan to the top of
the HSF.

The idea is the greater the temperature differential the faster heat
gets transferred. Bringing in cooler outside air help cool better than
reusing air inside the case that has been pre-heated by other
components. That's why cases started moving to bottom mounts. The
bottom of the case as a vent used only for the PSU, and the PSU exhausts
out the back. It gets the cooler air from outside instead of the
pre-heated air circulating inside the case. As before, the PSU exhausts
out the back, so that heated air isn't moving over other warn/hot parts
inside.

I haven't look, but don't remember last time for my prior build in
seeing a case that has a side panel window and venting for a fan. From
the online pics, looks like the Antec 302 case does not have a window
insert, just the venting grill. You'll still have to figure out if you
have room for the panel fan inside the case depending on how tall is the
HSF you'll be using on the CPU. It'll look ugly to have the fan on the
outside of the side panel, you'll need to cut out the vent grill since
the performations will cause backpressure via turbulence, and get a
grill to put on the outside of the fan to make sure it doesn't become an
accidental shredder (although case fans don't have much torque to worry
about your fingers getting cut off).

From
https://static.tweaktown.com/content/4/5/4583_31_antec_three_hundred_two_mid_tower_chassis_review_full.jpg,
there looks to be plenty of large holes for the front case fans to blow
through unless you populate all 7 3.5" drive bays, or cover the inside
cage holes with cables. If the mobo base plate can be removed, or there
is a removable left-side panel, you can route many cables on the
underside of the mobo. There look to be holes in the mobo base plate
for routing cables underneath. I didn't bother digging through an
online manual on the case to see if the left-side panel is removable.
If you get a modular PSU, you can reduce the cable set to the minimum
number needed instead of having to deal with stowing a bunch of unused
cables.

VanguardLH wrote:

> Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> > I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted.
> > Pre-installed fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the
> > rear. Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the
> > case and two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the
> > case's removable front panel Looks like that space though is not
> > designed well because the side of the cage facing the front panel
> > is pretty much solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely
> > into the space. I'm not an engineer, so that could be a mispection
> > on my part. Antec specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
> >
> > I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel.
> > My question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best
> > cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air
> > from the outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I
> > set it up to blow the air from inside the case into the room?
>
> Have the side case fan blow in the same direction as the fan atop the
> heatsink for the CPU. Blowing in opposite directions (or sucking in
> opposite directions) means the fans compete with each other, so air
> flow will get reduced.
>
> Since the primary component to cool on the mobo in line with the side
> case fan is the CPU, some cases even include a collapsible shroud for
> the panel fan. It keeps the case fan's airflow over the area with the
> CPU. Unless wrongly oriented (opposite of the fan on the CPU), it
> doesn't help push more air down on the CPU, but helps to flush out the
> air that was expelled out the heatsink that got warmed when passed
> over the CPU. The shroud is only needed if you have a fat (wide)
> case which puts the case fan further away, or the fan is mounted
> outside the case (perhaps with a grill for protection) instead of
> inside. The case I had with the shroud made it collapsible, so it
> could be slid to the right thickness to accomodate low to medium
> height HSFs. If you're using a huge HSF, you probably cannot use a
> shroud, and it wouldn't be necessary. In fact, if you get an overly
> tall HSF, you might not be able to mount a case fan inside the panel.
>
> https://www.newegg.com/p/0ZK-0FNN-00003
>
> That's just one example of a shroud. Mine had 2 pieces to the shroud:
> one affixed to the base that screwed onto the side panel, and a
> sliding part to adjust for the gap between side panel and case fan to
> the top of the HSF.
>
> The idea is the greater the temperature differential the faster heat
> gets transferred. Bringing in cooler outside air help cool better
> than reusing air inside the case that has been pre-heated by other
> components. That's why cases started moving to bottom mounts. The
> bottom of the case as a vent used only for the PSU, and the PSU
> exhausts out the back. It gets the cooler air from outside instead
> of the pre-heated air circulating inside the case. As before, the
> PSU exhausts out the back, so that heated air isn't moving over other
> warn/hot parts inside.
>
> I haven't look, but don't remember last time for my prior build in
> seeing a case that has a side panel window and venting for a fan.
> From the online pics, looks like the Antec 302 case does not have a
> window insert, just the venting grill. You'll still have to figure
> out if you have room for the panel fan inside the case depending on
> how tall is the HSF you'll be using on the CPU. It'll look ugly to
> have the fan on the outside of the side panel, you'll need to cut out
> the vent grill since the performations will cause backpressure via
> turbulence, and get a grill to put on the outside of the fan to make
> sure it doesn't become an accidental shredder (although case fans
> don't have much torque to worry about your fingers getting cut off).
>
> From
>
https://static.tweaktown.com/content/4/5/4583_31_antec_three_hundred_two_mid_tower_chassis_review_full.jpg,
> there looks to be plenty of large holes for the front case fans to
> blow through unless you populate all 7 3.5" drive bays, or cover the
> inside cage holes with cables. If the mobo base plate can be
> removed, or there is a removable left-side panel, you can route many
> cables on the underside of the mobo. There look to be holes in the
> mobo base plate for routing cables underneath. I didn't bother
> digging through an online manual on the case to see if the left-side
> panel is removable. If you get a modular PSU, you can reduce the
> cable set to the minimum number needed instead of having to deal with
> stowing a bunch of unused cables.

Thanks. I never even thought about a fan blowing against the CPU fan,
duh. And thanks for the info about shrouds. I wasn't aware what they
were. The example you give looks more like the vents you see inside a
house or sticking out the top of houses for exhaust from an attic.

The Antec 302 is an ordinary, tradtional computer case. My existing
case (Antec 300) had fourfans pre-installed. I don't overclock but
always worry about heat, which is why I intend to add at least one more
fan. I'll probably break down and add a total of two more. Given your
warning about fans blowing air against one another, I'll forget about
putting a fan inside the case opposite the CPU and put them in the
front of the case. I confirmed it has space for two.

There were a lot of holes, so I've routed the cables to make the inside
more tidy. I've finished assembling the new build, but will wait till
tomorrow to test.

This was a project that just mushroomed out of control because I didn't
give any real thought to what I was doing and went on impulse. Never a
good idea :-)

Assuming everything passes muster, the new build will be
AMD Ryzen 7 5700G CPU with stock cooler
MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk motherboard
16Gb (2 x 8Gb) 4000 DDR4 RAM
WD 2TB HD
Asus DVD
Super Flower Leadex III 550W PSU
Antec 302 (2 pre-installed fans and adding 1 or 2 more)

The CPU has an integrated graphics chip and should work out fine. I
don't overclock (neither CPU nor GPU) so don't expect a need for
extraordinary cooling measures than what I've mentioned so far.

On 2021-10-16 8:07 p.m., Yes wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted.
>>> Pre-installed fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the
>>> rear. Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the
>>> case and two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the
>>> case's removable front panel Looks like that space though is not
>>> designed well because the side of the cage facing the front panel
>>> is pretty much solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely
>>> into the space. I'm not an engineer, so that could be a mispection
>>> on my part. Antec specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>>>
>>> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel.
>>> My question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best
>>> cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air
>>> from the outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I
>>> set it up to blow the air from inside the case into the room?
>>
>> Have the side case fan blow in the same direction as the fan atop the
>> heatsink for the CPU. Blowing in opposite directions (or sucking in
>> opposite directions) means the fans compete with each other, so air
>> flow will get reduced.
>>
>> Since the primary component to cool on the mobo in line with the side
>> case fan is the CPU, some cases even include a collapsible shroud for
>> the panel fan. It keeps the case fan's airflow over the area with the
>> CPU. Unless wrongly oriented (opposite of the fan on the CPU), it
>> doesn't help push more air down on the CPU, but helps to flush out the
>> air that was expelled out the heatsink that got warmed when passed
>> over the CPU. The shroud is only needed if you have a fat (wide)
>> case which puts the case fan further away, or the fan is mounted
>> outside the case (perhaps with a grill for protection) instead of
>> inside. The case I had with the shroud made it collapsible, so it
>> could be slid to the right thickness to accomodate low to medium
>> height HSFs. If you're using a huge HSF, you probably cannot use a
>> shroud, and it wouldn't be necessary. In fact, if you get an overly
>> tall HSF, you might not be able to mount a case fan inside the panel.
>>
>> https://www.newegg.com/p/0ZK-0FNN-00003
>>
>> That's just one example of a shroud. Mine had 2 pieces to the shroud:
>> one affixed to the base that screwed onto the side panel, and a
>> sliding part to adjust for the gap between side panel and case fan to
>> the top of the HSF.
>>
>> The idea is the greater the temperature differential the faster heat
>> gets transferred. Bringing in cooler outside air help cool better
>> than reusing air inside the case that has been pre-heated by other
>> components. That's why cases started moving to bottom mounts. The
>> bottom of the case as a vent used only for the PSU, and the PSU
>> exhausts out the back. It gets the cooler air from outside instead
>> of the pre-heated air circulating inside the case. As before, the
>> PSU exhausts out the back, so that heated air isn't moving over other
>> warn/hot parts inside.
>>
>> I haven't look, but don't remember last time for my prior build in
>> seeing a case that has a side panel window and venting for a fan.
>> From the online pics, looks like the Antec 302 case does not have a
>> window insert, just the venting grill. You'll still have to figure
>> out if you have room for the panel fan inside the case depending on
>> how tall is the HSF you'll be using on the CPU. It'll look ugly to
>> have the fan on the outside of the side panel, you'll need to cut out
>> the vent grill since the performations will cause backpressure via
>> turbulence, and get a grill to put on the outside of the fan to make
>> sure it doesn't become an accidental shredder (although case fans
>> don't have much torque to worry about your fingers getting cut off).
>>
>> From
>>
> https://static.tweaktown.com/content/4/5/4583_31_antec_three_hundred_two_mid_tower_chassis_review_full.jpg,
>> there looks to be plenty of large holes for the front case fans to
>> blow through unless you populate all 7 3.5" drive bays, or cover the
>> inside cage holes with cables. If the mobo base plate can be
>> removed, or there is a removable left-side panel, you can route many
>> cables on the underside of the mobo. There look to be holes in the
>> mobo base plate for routing cables underneath. I didn't bother
>> digging through an online manual on the case to see if the left-side
>> panel is removable. If you get a modular PSU, you can reduce the
>> cable set to the minimum number needed instead of having to deal with
>> stowing a bunch of unused cables.
>
> Thanks. I never even thought about a fan blowing against the CPU fan,
> duh. And thanks for the info about shrouds. I wasn't aware what they
> were. The example you give looks more like the vents you see inside a
> house or sticking out the top of houses for exhaust from an attic.
>
> The Antec 302 is an ordinary, tradtional computer case. My existing
> case (Antec 300) had fourfans pre-installed. I don't overclock but
> always worry about heat, which is why I intend to add at least one more
> fan. I'll probably break down and add a total of two more. Given your
> warning about fans blowing air against one another, I'll forget about
> putting a fan inside the case opposite the CPU and put them in the
> front of the case. I confirmed it has space for two.
>
> There were a lot of holes, so I've routed the cables to make the inside
> more tidy. I've finished assembling the new build, but will wait till
> tomorrow to test.
>
> This was a project that just mushroomed out of control because I didn't
> give any real thought to what I was doing and went on impulse. Never a
> good idea :-)
>
> Assuming everything passes muster, the new build will be
> AMD Ryzen 7 5700G CPU with stock cooler
> MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk motherboard
> 16Gb (2 x 8Gb) 4000 DDR4 RAM
> WD 2TB HD
> Asus DVD
> Super Flower Leadex III 550W PSU
> Antec 302 (2 pre-installed fans and adding 1 or 2 more)
>
> The CPU has an integrated graphics chip and should work out fine. I
> don't overclock (neither CPU nor GPU) so don't expect a need for
> extraordinary cooling measures than what I've mentioned so far.
>

Sounds like a good plan, The front fans should do a fine job Yes I am
running a Ryzen 5 3400g CPU with stock cooler and I find the graphics
Quite adequate.
Have you considered an SSD or M.2 , NVMe drive for your OS drive, Really
helps speed things up.

Rene

On 10/16/2021 2:38 PM, Yes wrote:
> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted. Pre-installed
> fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the rear.
> Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the case and
> two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the case's
> removable front panel Looks like that space though is not designed
> well because the side of the cage facing the front panel is pretty much
> solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm
> not an engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec specs
> indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>
> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel. My
> question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best cooling
> effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air from the
> outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I set it up to
> blow the air from inside the case into the room?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>

As Rene said in his answer, a front-to-back flow is basic.

When you're using a computer case, you're the engineer :-)
There have been some absolutely miserable computer cases,
like one where the top of it was an Easy Bake Oven, and
seemed hell bent on damaging hardware. That's why they
made you the engineer, as you couldn't possibly foul
things up as bad as the metal-bangers at the factory.

When a computer case has random holes (as some do), it's
your job to cover the holes that make no sense. My fav
for this, is sections of cardboard from cereal boxes,
shaped to cover the hole.

Your front fans, seem to be fitted into a metal tray, with
finger-tighten screws on the right to hold them in place.

https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_012.jpg

( https://www.pcweenie.com/content/antec-three-hundred-gaming-case )

There are holes for the air to come through into the drive
bay area. This is the same as the Sonata. (The difference on the
Sonata, is the SATA cables come off the side facing you, whereas
the 302 seems to be shoving them through a back hole for routing.)

On the Sonata, there is a "shadow" on
the top drive bay, causing slightly increased top drive
temperature. That's because of some weirdness inside
the front fascia. So while you can see holes like that in
the bay area, the holes "don't count" if something in the
faceplate area blocks air movement.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51um58dNuxL._AC_.jpg

In the picture here, they don't have any impingement cooling
onto their VRM heatsinks. The blue heatsinks. You can see the
fan for the water cooler. And that's where your build could
locate the exhaust fan if you want. The water cooler fan
would provide a laminar flow of low LPM air over the
VCore sinks.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ib8QPaggL._AC_.jpg

The hole underneath the motherboard, is handy for extreme
overclocks, where the bottom of the motherboard can be
an area to remove heat. That's to help the VRMs, from the back.

There is also a hole on the top of the case, for a water cooler,
but for a single fan water cooler. Some cases have a huge area
on top, for a two fan or a three fan water cooler. And the side
fan in this picture, is for cooling a graphics card. We probably
shouldn't say "cooling", more than swirling the air. Large
dumpers of warm air into the chassis, they create a "cloud", and
part of the airflow plan (the front-to-back flow thing), is
removing any clouds. And also, avoiding "dead spots", if there is
no airflow whatsoever in the area.

https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_001.jpg

And that's probably the worst part of this case design, is
deciding what to do with the graphics card area. You could
block the top hole, use the side-hole facing you as exhaust,
use the top-back as exhaust, for four-fan total.

*******

A "positive pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the
two (front) drive bay coolers, and that's it.

A "negative pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the top-back
and top fans, and pull air through any other hole. In such a case,
you use barriers to block airflow where it isn't needed, so the airflow
velocity in the other areas can be enhanced.

My (former) Typing Machine, is a positive pressure design. That's
because the rear of the case, has no exhaust fan hole! The case was
from the year 2000 or so. It tends to get quite dusty.

My Test Machine, is a negative pressure design, with just the
exhaust fan in the top back. Holes where airflow is not desired,
are covered with cereal box cardboard. The top bay of the Antec
Sonata, does not cool the drive there all that well, and I've
kinda made it a habit to not use the top bay. Your case probably
won't make the same mistake. The dust isn't quite as bad in
the Test Machine. I removed the "filter" in the front of the
Sonata, because if it remained fitted, I'd have to clean it
every three months. Your choice on philosophy there...

"They gave you plenty of holes." Now, you have to apply strategy,
to cover the unneeded holes and ensure a "defined" strategy.

I made the mistake once, of placing seven fans on a PC. The
basic airflow was front to back. But some fans were on the
sides too. I did the Kleenex test, and carefully held the
tissue next to some of the side fans. And one of the side
fans, the air actually flowed through the fan *backwards*.
Which tells you, at best, the fan is useless. Removing the
fan then, and just using it as a vent hole, saves a bit
on noise. Blocking the hole makes sense, if you need more
airflow in some other area. It was because of that
experience with the "seven fan experiment", I no longer
place a premium on tons of side fans. I tried to have
a strategy there, but one of the fans told me "you're
full of shit" :-)

Ideally, you do a new build on the kitchen table first,
with no computer case. This is extremely easy for
5600G or 10400 processors with their integrated graphics,
as then there's no graphics card to fall over while you
work on the kitchen table. Using the table method, I
was able to stick my finger on the VCore VRM sink, and
discover a surface temperature of 65C. Which means the
components underneath the heatsink, could be running
95 to 100C. It's because of that discovery, I have a fan
inside the case, doing impingement cooling on that
heatsink. I also turned off the turbo in the machine,
to prevent overheat. The kitchen table build offers
a chance to check thermals before you put the goods into
the computer case.

Paul

On 10/16/2021 11:38 AM, Yes wrote:
> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted. Pre-installed
> fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the rear.
> Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the case and
> two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the case's
> removable front panel Looks like that space though is not designed
> well because the side of the cage facing the front panel is pretty much
> solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm
> not an engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec specs
> indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>
> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel. My
> question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best cooling
> effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air from the
> outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I set it up to
> blow the air from inside the case into the room?

My theory about cooling in my PC's is to get the heat from the processor
and Video cards out of the box as directly as you can. I make shrouds
out of cardboard to direct the heat from the processor directly to the
nearest exhaust fans, including the power supply fan. A shroud directing
the processor fan output directly out of the box would be ideal.

The idea of having 5 or more fans seems to me to be crazy, when properly
getting the heat from the source directly out of the box does the job
perfectly. My PC's generally have 3 fans - The power supply fan directly
above the processor, an exhaust fan on the back just below the power
supply. A cardboard shroud makes sure the majority of heat from the
processor goes straight out the exhaust fans.

A large intake fan sits at the back of in 3 of the DVD drive slots on
the front of the box, with an open cell foam filter on the intake side
to collect the dust before it gets in to plug the cooling fins and fans.

My intake fan has a speed control on it to keep it quiet, and since it
is bigger than the others, it keeps up fine.

Cleaning the foam filter when it starts to look dirty is way easier than
opening the box and trying to get a vacuum to all the cooling fins.

If Your video card does not exhaust out the back, a shroud from its
exhaust through a hole cut in the side of the case can do a really good
job of getting rid of its heat.

I use tape to block off other holes in the case to keep outside dirty
air from getting in through them, and adjust the intake fan speed to
maintain positive pressure in the box.

Rene Lamontagne wrote:

> On 2021-10-16 8:07 p.m., Yes wrote:
> > VanguardLH wrote:
> >
> >>Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted.
> > > > Pre-installed fans are at the top of the case and at the top of
> > > > the rear. Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each
> > > > side of the case and two in the front space between the 3.25"
> > > > bay cage and the case's removable front panel Looks like that
> > > > space though is not designed well because the side of the cage
> > > > facing the front panel is pretty much solid with few vent
> > > > spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm not an
> > > > engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec
> > > > specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
> > > >
> > > > I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side
> > > > panel. My question is, what direction should the air flow to
> > > > get the best cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it
> > > > up to take in air from the outside room and blow onto the
> > > > motherboard? Or, should I set it up to blow the air from
> > > > inside the case into the room?
> > >
> > > Have the side case fan blow in the same direction as the fan atop
> > > the heatsink for the CPU. Blowing in opposite directions (or
> > > sucking in opposite directions) means the fans compete with each
> > > other, so air flow will get reduced.
> > >
> > > Since the primary component to cool on the mobo in line with the
> > > side case fan is the CPU, some cases even include a collapsible
> > > shroud for the panel fan. It keeps the case fan's airflow over
> > > the area with the CPU. Unless wrongly oriented (opposite of the
> > > fan on the CPU), it doesn't help push more air down on the CPU,
> > > but helps to flush out the air that was expelled out the heatsink
> > > that got warmed when passed over the CPU. The shroud is only
> > > needed if you have a fat (wide) case which puts the case fan
> > > further away, or the fan is mounted outside the case (perhaps
> > > with a grill for protection) instead of inside. The case I had
> > > with the shroud made it collapsible, so it could be slid to the
> > > right thickness to accomodate low to medium height HSFs. If
> > > you're using a huge HSF, you probably cannot use a shroud, and it
> > > wouldn't be necessary. In fact, if you get an overly tall HSF,
> > > you might not be able to mount a case fan inside the panel.
> > >
> > > https://www.newegg.com/p/0ZK-0FNN-00003
> > >
> > > That's just one example of a shroud. Mine had 2 pieces to the
> > > shroud: one affixed to the base that screwed onto the side
> > > panel, and a sliding part to adjust for the gap between side
> > > panel and case fan to the top of the HSF.
> > >
> > > The idea is the greater the temperature differential the faster
> > > heat gets transferred. Bringing in cooler outside air help cool
> > > better than reusing air inside the case that has been pre-heated
> > > by other components. That's why cases started moving to bottom
> > > mounts. The bottom of the case as a vent used only for the PSU,
> > > and the PSU exhausts out the back. It gets the cooler air from
> > > outside instead of the pre-heated air circulating inside the
> > > case. As before, the PSU exhausts out the back, so that heated
> > > air isn't moving over other warn/hot parts inside.
> > >
> > > I haven't look, but don't remember last time for my prior build in
> > > seeing a case that has a side panel window and venting for a fan.
> >> From the online pics, looks like the Antec 302 case does not have a
> > > window insert, just the venting grill. You'll still have to
> > > figure out if you have room for the panel fan inside the case
> > > depending on how tall is the HSF you'll be using on the CPU.
> > > It'll look ugly to have the fan on the outside of the side panel,
> > > you'll need to cut out the vent grill since the performations
> > > will cause backpressure via turbulence, and get a grill to put on
> > > the outside of the fan to make sure it doesn't become an
> > > accidental shredder (although case fans don't have much torque to
> > > worry about your fingers getting cut off).
> > >
> > > From
> > >
> >
https://static.tweaktown.com/content/4/5/4583_31_antec_three_hundred_two_mid_tower_chassis_review_full.jpg,
> > > there looks to be plenty of large holes for the front case fans to
> > > blow through unless you populate all 7 3.5" drive bays, or cover
> > > the inside cage holes with cables. If the mobo base plate can be
> > > removed, or there is a removable left-side panel, you can route
> > > many cables on the underside of the mobo. There look to be holes
> > > in the mobo base plate for routing cables underneath. I didn't
> > > bother digging through an online manual on the case to see if the
> > > left-side panel is removable. If you get a modular PSU, you can
> > > reduce the cable set to the minimum number needed instead of
> > > having to deal with stowing a bunch of unused cables.
> >
> > Thanks. I never even thought about a fan blowing against the CPU
> > fan, duh. And thanks for the info about shrouds. I wasn't aware
> > what they were. The example you give looks more like the vents you
> > see inside a house or sticking out the top of houses for exhaust
> > from an attic.
> >
> > The Antec 302 is an ordinary, tradtional computer case. My existing
> > case (Antec 300) had fourfans pre-installed. I don't overclock but
> > always worry about heat, which is why I intend to add at least one
> > more fan. I'll probably break down and add a total of two more.
> > Given your warning about fans blowing air against one another, I'll
> > forget about putting a fan inside the case opposite the CPU and put
> > them in the front of the case. I confirmed it has space for two.
> >
> > There were a lot of holes, so I've routed the cables to make the
> > inside more tidy. I've finished assembling the new build, but will
> > wait till tomorrow to test.
> >
> > This was a project that just mushroomed out of control because I
> > didn't give any real thought to what I was doing and went on
> > impulse. Never a good idea :-)
> >
> > Assuming everything passes muster, the new build will be
> > AMD Ryzen 7 5700G CPU with stock cooler
> > MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk motherboard
> > 16Gb (2 x 8Gb) 4000 DDR4 RAM
> > WD 2TB HD
> > Asus DVD
> > Super Flower Leadex III 550W PSU
> > Antec 302 (2 pre-installed fans and adding 1 or 2 more)
> >
> > The CPU has an integrated graphics chip and should work out fine. I
> > don't overclock (neither CPU nor GPU) so don't expect a need for
> > extraordinary cooling measures than what I've mentioned so far.
> >
>
> Sounds like a good plan, The front fans should do a fine job Yes I am
> running a Ryzen 5 3400g CPU with stock cooler and I find the
> graphics Quite adequate. Have you considered an SSD or M.2 , NVMe
> drive for your OS drive, Really helps speed things up.
>
> Rene

Sometimes I think about it but decided that if I wanted more speed, I'd
be better off spending the money in speedier RAM, which is what I did.
Most people talk about the benefit of faster boot times using an SSD or
M.2 (NVMe ??), but that is not important for me. I have other things I
do for the extra minute or so, if that long, for the pc to boot up.
The one reason that I might spring for an SSD is to have a quicker
loading of transition areas in the RPG games I play (circa 2000). I
wonder what it might be like, but on the other hand at the moment I'm
not enthusiastic enough to spend money on something just to satisfy my
whims of curiousity when the games I play work fine and there's no
guarantee that I would notice the benefit to the game from an SSD. The
other things I do on my pc are your basic email, spreadsheet, solitaire
:-) and web surfing. I don't use intensive apps like A/V editing or
CAD.

If I'm honest with myself, the only reason I even went ahead with what
I did was so that I could eventually play the games I enjoy on a higher
resolution monitor. The modding community for the game has been very
proactive to create mods to the game to approach using the capabilities
offered by the new hardware that was not in existence at the time the
game was created and developed. The technical improvements by the
modding community are best noticed in the visual display of the game,
which means for me that I'll eventually upgrade my monitor (24" 1080P)
to a larger monitor capable of 2k if not 4k. The AMD cpu with its
integrated graphics should allow me to "move up" to a 2K display. Even
after reading its specs, I'm not sure that it by itself would handle
"true" 4k resolutions. I think it's supposed to be able to handle
something like 720P, but I don't know. I've never really looked much
into resolution specs before. When I bought my current monitor, 2k and
higher was just something that only people with lots of money (US
$10,000) could afford, definitely out of my price range. The monitor I
bought back then satisfied my needs very adequately and still does,
really, but I am kind of itching to enjoy a larger screen with the
ability to show higher resolution visuals.

Paul wrote:

> On 10/16/2021 2:38 PM, Yes wrote:
> > I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted.
> > Pre-installed fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the
> > rear. Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the
> > case and two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the
> > case's removable front panel Looks like that space though is not
> > designed well because the side of the cage facing the front panel
> > is pretty much solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely
> > into the space. I'm not an engineer, so that could be a mispection
> > on my part. Antec specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
> >
> > I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel.
> > My question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best
> > cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air
> > from the outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I
> > set it up to blow the air from inside the case into the room?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
>
> As Rene said in his answer, a front-to-back flow is basic.
>
> When you're using a computer case, you're the engineer :-)
> There have been some absolutely miserable computer cases,
> like one where the top of it was an Easy Bake Oven, and
> seemed hell bent on damaging hardware. That's why they
> made you the engineer, as you couldn't possibly foul
> things up as bad as the metal-bangers at the factory.
>
> When a computer case has random holes (as some do), it's
> your job to cover the holes that make no sense. My fav
> for this, is sections of cardboard from cereal boxes,
> shaped to cover the hole.
>
> Your front fans, seem to be fitted into a metal tray, with
> finger-tighten screws on the right to hold them in place.
>
> https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_012.jpg
>
> ( https://www.pcweenie.com/content/antec-three-hundred-gaming-case
> )
>
> There are holes for the air to come through into the drive
> bay area. This is the same as the Sonata. (The difference on the
> Sonata, is the SATA cables come off the side facing you, whereas
> the 302 seems to be shoving them through a back hole for routing.)
>
> On the Sonata, there is a "shadow" on
> the top drive bay, causing slightly increased top drive
> temperature. That's because of some weirdness inside
> the front fascia. So while you can see holes like that in
> the bay area, the holes "don't count" if something in the
> faceplate area blocks air movement.
>
> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51um58dNuxL._AC_.jpg
>
> In the picture here, they don't have any impingement cooling
> onto their VRM heatsinks. The blue heatsinks. You can see the
> fan for the water cooler. And that's where your build could
> locate the exhaust fan if you want. The water cooler fan
> would provide a laminar flow of low LPM air over the
> VCore sinks.
>
> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ib8QPaggL._AC_.jpg
>
> The hole underneath the motherboard, is handy for extreme
> overclocks, where the bottom of the motherboard can be
> an area to remove heat. That's to help the VRMs, from the back.
>
> There is also a hole on the top of the case, for a water cooler,
> but for a single fan water cooler. Some cases have a huge area
> on top, for a two fan or a three fan water cooler. And the side
> fan in this picture, is for cooling a graphics card. We probably
> shouldn't say "cooling", more than swirling the air. Large
> dumpers of warm air into the chassis, they create a "cloud", and
> part of the airflow plan (the front-to-back flow thing), is
> removing any clouds. And also, avoiding "dead spots", if there is
> no airflow whatsoever in the area.
>
> https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_001.jpg
>
> And that's probably the worst part of this case design, is
> deciding what to do with the graphics card area. You could
> block the top hole, use the side-hole facing you as exhaust,
> use the top-back as exhaust, for four-fan total.
>
> *******
>
> A "positive pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the
> two (front) drive bay coolers, and that's it.
>
> A "negative pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the top-back
> and top fans, and pull air through any other hole. In such a case,
> you use barriers to block airflow where it isn't needed, so the
> airflow velocity in the other areas can be enhanced.
>
> My (former) Typing Machine, is a positive pressure design. That's
> because the rear of the case, has no exhaust fan hole! The case was
> from the year 2000 or so. It tends to get quite dusty.
>
> My Test Machine, is a negative pressure design, with just the
> exhaust fan in the top back. Holes where airflow is not desired,
> are covered with cereal box cardboard. The top bay of the Antec
> Sonata, does not cool the drive there all that well, and I've
> kinda made it a habit to not use the top bay. Your case probably
> won't make the same mistake. The dust isn't quite as bad in
> the Test Machine. I removed the "filter" in the front of the
> Sonata, because if it remained fitted, I'd have to clean it
> every three months. Your choice on philosophy there...
>
> "They gave you plenty of holes." Now, you have to apply strategy,
> to cover the unneeded holes and ensure a "defined" strategy.
>
> I made the mistake once, of placing seven fans on a PC. The
> basic airflow was front to back. But some fans were on the
> sides too. I did the Kleenex test, and carefully held the
> tissue next to some of the side fans. And one of the side
> fans, the air actually flowed through the fan backwards.
> Which tells you, at best, the fan is useless. Removing the
> fan then, and just using it as a vent hole, saves a bit
> on noise. Blocking the hole makes sense, if you need more
> airflow in some other area. It was because of that
> experience with the "seven fan experiment", I no longer
> place a premium on tons of side fans. I tried to have
> a strategy there, but one of the fans told me "you're
> full of shit" :-)
>
> Ideally, you do a new build on the kitchen table first,
> with no computer case. This is extremely easy for
> 5600G or 10400 processors with their integrated graphics,
> as then there's no graphics card to fall over while you
> work on the kitchen table. Using the table method, I
> was able to stick my finger on the VCore VRM sink, and
> discover a surface temperature of 65C. Which means the
> components underneath the heatsink, could be running
> 95 to 100C. It's because of that discovery, I have a fan
> inside the case, doing impingement cooling on that
> heatsink. I also turned off the turbo in the machine,
> to prevent overheat. The kitchen table build offers
> a chance to check thermals before you put the goods into
> the computer case.
>
> Paul

Antec re-designed the case. The first picture you linked to is the
Antec 300. The Antec 302 which is what I'm using for this build looks
like the 3rd and 4th links you gave. Antec did away with the fan metal
tray you mention. Instead, in the 302, the optional fans screw into
the metal plate forming part of the case. The front panel is mesh with
dust filter and is roomy enough for the 120mm fans to fit height-wise.
For the moment, I've added a fan at the front on the bottom and
positioned the HD so that the breeze from the fan flows over it. I
still have room for another 120mm fan at the front.

The 3.5" internal bay cage seems attached in the case using rivets;
well, I don't see screws to allow one to remove the cage. Both sides
of the cage have punched openings, say 3" or 4" inches long and 3/4"
high (eyeball, not measured), so I'm going to guess that air flow from
fans attached in front won't be impeded too much. I've used one of
those openings to snake a cable or two to tidy things up inside the
case.

I'm not familiar with the term "impingement cooling. I understand your
explanation about searching for unexpected hot spots inside the case
but am at a loss about what I could do even if I noticed something like
that.

At most, I wonder from time to time if someone makes internal
thermometers for use inside a pc, like these days you can see such
things used by cooks to monitor food being cooked inside an oven. I
figure that type of equipment would probably be expensive and don't
have a clear idea of how to actually effectively use it in practice. I
mean, such equipment is probably out there for purchase, but does it
really make sense to buy and install for a home computer. I seem to
recall, at least in the past, that computer equipment did not have
temperature sensors but relied upon some other type of measurement and
used that metric to estimate the CPU temperature.

On 2021-10-17 11:46 a.m., Yes wrote:
> Rene Lamontagne wrote:
>
>> On 2021-10-16 8:07 p.m., Yes wrote:
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted.
>>>>> Pre-installed fans are at the top of the case and at the top of
>>>>> the rear. Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each
>>>>> side of the case and two in the front space between the 3.25"
>>>>> bay cage and the case's removable front panel Looks like that
>>>>> space though is not designed well because the side of the cage
>>>>> facing the front panel is pretty much solid with few vent
>>>>> spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm not an
>>>>> engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec
>>>>> specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side
>>>>> panel. My question is, what direction should the air flow to
>>>>> get the best cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it
>>>>> up to take in air from the outside room and blow onto the
>>>>> motherboard? Or, should I set it up to blow the air from
>>>>> inside the case into the room?
>>>>
>>>> Have the side case fan blow in the same direction as the fan atop
>>>> the heatsink for the CPU. Blowing in opposite directions (or
>>>> sucking in opposite directions) means the fans compete with each
>>>> other, so air flow will get reduced.
>>>>
>>>> Since the primary component to cool on the mobo in line with the
>>>> side case fan is the CPU, some cases even include a collapsible
>>>> shroud for the panel fan. It keeps the case fan's airflow over
>>>> the area with the CPU. Unless wrongly oriented (opposite of the
>>>> fan on the CPU), it doesn't help push more air down on the CPU,
>>>> but helps to flush out the air that was expelled out the heatsink
>>>> that got warmed when passed over the CPU. The shroud is only
>>>> needed if you have a fat (wide) case which puts the case fan
>>>> further away, or the fan is mounted outside the case (perhaps
>>>> with a grill for protection) instead of inside. The case I had
>>>> with the shroud made it collapsible, so it could be slid to the
>>>> right thickness to accomodate low to medium height HSFs. If
>>>> you're using a huge HSF, you probably cannot use a shroud, and it
>>>> wouldn't be necessary. In fact, if you get an overly tall HSF,
>>>> you might not be able to mount a case fan inside the panel.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.newegg.com/p/0ZK-0FNN-00003
>>>>
>>>> That's just one example of a shroud. Mine had 2 pieces to the
>>>> shroud: one affixed to the base that screwed onto the side
>>>> panel, and a sliding part to adjust for the gap between side
>>>> panel and case fan to the top of the HSF.
>>>>
>>>> The idea is the greater the temperature differential the faster
>>>> heat gets transferred. Bringing in cooler outside air help cool
>>>> better than reusing air inside the case that has been pre-heated
>>>> by other components. That's why cases started moving to bottom
>>>> mounts. The bottom of the case as a vent used only for the PSU,
>>>> and the PSU exhausts out the back. It gets the cooler air from
>>>> outside instead of the pre-heated air circulating inside the
>>>> case. As before, the PSU exhausts out the back, so that heated
>>>> air isn't moving over other warn/hot parts inside.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't look, but don't remember last time for my prior build in
>>>> seeing a case that has a side panel window and venting for a fan.
>>>> From the online pics, looks like the Antec 302 case does not have a
>>>> window insert, just the venting grill. You'll still have to
>>>> figure out if you have room for the panel fan inside the case
>>>> depending on how tall is the HSF you'll be using on the CPU.
>>>> It'll look ugly to have the fan on the outside of the side panel,
>>>> you'll need to cut out the vent grill since the performations
>>>> will cause backpressure via turbulence, and get a grill to put on
>>>> the outside of the fan to make sure it doesn't become an
>>>> accidental shredder (although case fans don't have much torque to
>>>> worry about your fingers getting cut off).
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>>
> https://static.tweaktown.com/content/4/5/4583_31_antec_three_hundred_two_mid_tower_chassis_review_full.jpg,
>>>> there looks to be plenty of large holes for the front case fans to
>>>> blow through unless you populate all 7 3.5" drive bays, or cover
>>>> the inside cage holes with cables. If the mobo base plate can be
>>>> removed, or there is a removable left-side panel, you can route
>>>> many cables on the underside of the mobo. There look to be holes
>>>> in the mobo base plate for routing cables underneath. I didn't
>>>> bother digging through an online manual on the case to see if the
>>>> left-side panel is removable. If you get a modular PSU, you can
>>>> reduce the cable set to the minimum number needed instead of
>>>> having to deal with stowing a bunch of unused cables.
>>>
>>> Thanks. I never even thought about a fan blowing against the CPU
>>> fan, duh. And thanks for the info about shrouds. I wasn't aware
>>> what they were. The example you give looks more like the vents you
>>> see inside a house or sticking out the top of houses for exhaust
>>> from an attic.
>>>
>>> The Antec 302 is an ordinary, tradtional computer case. My existing
>>> case (Antec 300) had fourfans pre-installed. I don't overclock but
>>> always worry about heat, which is why I intend to add at least one
>>> more fan. I'll probably break down and add a total of two more.
>>> Given your warning about fans blowing air against one another, I'll
>>> forget about putting a fan inside the case opposite the CPU and put
>>> them in the front of the case. I confirmed it has space for two.
>>>
>>> There were a lot of holes, so I've routed the cables to make the
>>> inside more tidy. I've finished assembling the new build, but will
>>> wait till tomorrow to test.
>>>
>>> This was a project that just mushroomed out of control because I
>>> didn't give any real thought to what I was doing and went on
>>> impulse. Never a good idea :-)
>>>
>>> Assuming everything passes muster, the new build will be
>>> AMD Ryzen 7 5700G CPU with stock cooler
>>> MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk motherboard
>>> 16Gb (2 x 8Gb) 4000 DDR4 RAM
>>> WD 2TB HD
>>> Asus DVD
>>> Super Flower Leadex III 550W PSU
>>> Antec 302 (2 pre-installed fans and adding 1 or 2 more)
>>>
>>> The CPU has an integrated graphics chip and should work out fine. I
>>> don't overclock (neither CPU nor GPU) so don't expect a need for
>>> extraordinary cooling measures than what I've mentioned so far.
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like a good plan, The front fans should do a fine job Yes I am
>> running a Ryzen 5 3400g CPU with stock cooler and I find the
>> graphics Quite adequate. Have you considered an SSD or M.2 , NVMe
>> drive for your OS drive, Really helps speed things up.
>>
>> Rene
>
> Sometimes I think about it but decided that if I wanted more speed, I'd
> be better off spending the money in speedier RAM, which is what I did.
> Most people talk about the benefit of faster boot times using an SSD or
> M.2 (NVMe ??), but that is not important for me. I have other things I
> do for the extra minute or so, if that long, for the pc to boot up.
> The one reason that I might spring for an SSD is to have a quicker
> loading of transition areas in the RPG games I play (circa 2000). I
> wonder what it might be like, but on the other hand at the moment I'm
> not enthusiastic enough to spend money on something just to satisfy my
> whims of curiousity when the games I play work fine and there's no
> guarantee that I would notice the benefit to the game from an SSD. The
> other things I do on my pc are your basic email, spreadsheet, solitaire
> :-) and web surfing. I don't use intensive apps like A/V editing or
> CAD.
>
> If I'm honest with myself, the only reason I even went ahead with what
> I did was so that I could eventually play the games I enjoy on a higher
> resolution monitor. The modding community for the game has been very
> proactive to create mods to the game to approach using the capabilities
> offered by the new hardware that was not in existence at the time the
> game was created and developed. The technical improvements by the
> modding community are best noticed in the visual display of the game,
> which means for me that I'll eventually upgrade my monitor (24" 1080P)
> to a larger monitor capable of 2k if not 4k. The AMD cpu with its
> integrated graphics should allow me to "move up" to a 2K display. Even
> after reading its specs, I'm not sure that it by itself would handle
> "true" 4k resolutions. I think it's supposed to be able to handle
> something like 720P, but I don't know. I've never really looked much
> into resolution specs before. When I bought my current monitor, 2k and
> higher was just something that only people with lots of money (US
> $10,000) could afford, definitely out of my price range. The monitor I
> bought back then satisfied my needs very adequately and still does,
> really, but I am kind of itching to enjoy a larger screen with the
> ability to show higher resolution visuals.
>
> John
>

On 10/17/2021 1:31 PM, Yes wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>
>> On 10/16/2021 2:38 PM, Yes wrote:
>>> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted.
>>> Pre-installed fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the
>>> rear. Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the
>>> case and two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the
>>> case's removable front panel Looks like that space though is not
>>> designed well because the side of the cage facing the front panel
>>> is pretty much solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely
>>> into the space. I'm not an engineer, so that could be a mispection
>>> on my part. Antec specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>>>
>>> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel.
>>> My question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best
>>> cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air
>>> from the outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I
>>> set it up to blow the air from inside the case into the room?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> John
>>>
>>
>> As Rene said in his answer, a front-to-back flow is basic.
>>
>> When you're using a computer case, you're the engineer :-)
>> There have been some absolutely miserable computer cases,
>> like one where the top of it was an Easy Bake Oven, and
>> seemed hell bent on damaging hardware. That's why they
>> made you the engineer, as you couldn't possibly foul
>> things up as bad as the metal-bangers at the factory.
>>
>> When a computer case has random holes (as some do), it's
>> your job to cover the holes that make no sense. My fav
>> for this, is sections of cardboard from cereal boxes,
>> shaped to cover the hole.
>>
>> Your front fans, seem to be fitted into a metal tray, with
>> finger-tighten screws on the right to hold them in place.
>>
>> https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_012.jpg
>>
>> ( https://www.pcweenie.com/content/antec-three-hundred-gaming-case
>> )
>>
>> There are holes for the air to come through into the drive
>> bay area. This is the same as the Sonata. (The difference on the
>> Sonata, is the SATA cables come off the side facing you, whereas
>> the 302 seems to be shoving them through a back hole for routing.)
>>
>> On the Sonata, there is a "shadow" on
>> the top drive bay, causing slightly increased top drive
>> temperature. That's because of some weirdness inside
>> the front fascia. So while you can see holes like that in
>> the bay area, the holes "don't count" if something in the
>> faceplate area blocks air movement.
>>
>> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51um58dNuxL._AC_.jpg
>>
>> In the picture here, they don't have any impingement cooling
>> onto their VRM heatsinks. The blue heatsinks. You can see the
>> fan for the water cooler. And that's where your build could
>> locate the exhaust fan if you want. The water cooler fan
>> would provide a laminar flow of low LPM air over the
>> VCore sinks.
>>
>> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ib8QPaggL._AC_.jpg
>>
>> The hole underneath the motherboard, is handy for extreme
>> overclocks, where the bottom of the motherboard can be
>> an area to remove heat. That's to help the VRMs, from the back.
>>
>> There is also a hole on the top of the case, for a water cooler,
>> but for a single fan water cooler. Some cases have a huge area
>> on top, for a two fan or a three fan water cooler. And the side
>> fan in this picture, is for cooling a graphics card. We probably
>> shouldn't say "cooling", more than swirling the air. Large
>> dumpers of warm air into the chassis, they create a "cloud", and
>> part of the airflow plan (the front-to-back flow thing), is
>> removing any clouds. And also, avoiding "dead spots", if there is
>> no airflow whatsoever in the area.
>>
>> https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_001.jpg
>>
>> And that's probably the worst part of this case design, is
>> deciding what to do with the graphics card area. You could
>> block the top hole, use the side-hole facing you as exhaust,
>> use the top-back as exhaust, for four-fan total.
>>
>> *******
>>
>> A "positive pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the
>> two (front) drive bay coolers, and that's it.
>>
>> A "negative pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the top-back
>> and top fans, and pull air through any other hole. In such a case,
>> you use barriers to block airflow where it isn't needed, so the
>> airflow velocity in the other areas can be enhanced.
>>
>> My (former) Typing Machine, is a positive pressure design. That's
>> because the rear of the case, has no exhaust fan hole! The case was
>> from the year 2000 or so. It tends to get quite dusty.
>>
>> My Test Machine, is a negative pressure design, with just the
>> exhaust fan in the top back. Holes where airflow is not desired,
>> are covered with cereal box cardboard. The top bay of the Antec
>> Sonata, does not cool the drive there all that well, and I've
>> kinda made it a habit to not use the top bay. Your case probably
>> won't make the same mistake. The dust isn't quite as bad in
>> the Test Machine. I removed the "filter" in the front of the
>> Sonata, because if it remained fitted, I'd have to clean it
>> every three months. Your choice on philosophy there...
>>
>> "They gave you plenty of holes." Now, you have to apply strategy,
>> to cover the unneeded holes and ensure a "defined" strategy.
>>
>> I made the mistake once, of placing seven fans on a PC. The
>> basic airflow was front to back. But some fans were on the
>> sides too. I did the Kleenex test, and carefully held the
>> tissue next to some of the side fans. And one of the side
>> fans, the air actually flowed through the fan backwards.
>> Which tells you, at best, the fan is useless. Removing the
>> fan then, and just using it as a vent hole, saves a bit
>> on noise. Blocking the hole makes sense, if you need more
>> airflow in some other area. It was because of that
>> experience with the "seven fan experiment", I no longer
>> place a premium on tons of side fans. I tried to have
>> a strategy there, but one of the fans told me "you're
>> full of shit" :-)
>>
>> Ideally, you do a new build on the kitchen table first,
>> with no computer case. This is extremely easy for
>> 5600G or 10400 processors with their integrated graphics,
>> as then there's no graphics card to fall over while you
>> work on the kitchen table. Using the table method, I
>> was able to stick my finger on the VCore VRM sink, and
>> discover a surface temperature of 65C. Which means the
>> components underneath the heatsink, could be running
>> 95 to 100C. It's because of that discovery, I have a fan
>> inside the case, doing impingement cooling on that
>> heatsink. I also turned off the turbo in the machine,
>> to prevent overheat. The kitchen table build offers
>> a chance to check thermals before you put the goods into
>> the computer case.
>>
>> Paul
>
> Antec re-designed the case. The first picture you linked to is the
> Antec 300. The Antec 302 which is what I'm using for this build looks
> like the 3rd and 4th links you gave. Antec did away with the fan metal
> tray you mention. Instead, in the 302, the optional fans screw into
> the metal plate forming part of the case. The front panel is mesh with
> dust filter and is roomy enough for the 120mm fans to fit height-wise.
> For the moment, I've added a fan at the front on the bottom and
> positioned the HD so that the breeze from the fan flows over it. I
> still have room for another 120mm fan at the front.
>
> The 3.5" internal bay cage seems attached in the case using rivets;
> well, I don't see screws to allow one to remove the cage. Both sides
> of the cage have punched openings, say 3" or 4" inches long and 3/4"
> high (eyeball, not measured), so I'm going to guess that air flow from
> fans attached in front won't be impeded too much. I've used one of
> those openings to snake a cable or two to tidy things up inside the
> case.
>
> I'm not familiar with the term "impingement cooling. I understand your
> explanation about searching for unexpected hot spots inside the case
> but am at a loss about what I could do even if I noticed something like
> that.
>
> At most, I wonder from time to time if someone makes internal
> thermometers for use inside a pc, like these days you can see such
> things used by cooks to monitor food being cooked inside an oven. I
> figure that type of equipment would probably be expensive and don't
> have a clear idea of how to actually effectively use it in practice. I
> mean, such equipment is probably out there for purchase, but does it
> really make sense to buy and install for a home computer. I seem to
> recall, at least in the past, that computer equipment did not have
> temperature sensors but relied upon some other type of measurement and
> used that metric to estimate the CPU temperature.
>
> John
>

Paul wrote:

> On 10/17/2021 1:31 PM, Yes wrote:
> > Paul wrote:
> >
> > > On 10/16/2021 2:38 PM, Yes wrote:
> > > > I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted.
> > > > Pre-installed fans are at the top of the case and at the top of
> > > > the rear. Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each
> > > > side of the case and two in the front space between the 3.25"
> > > > bay cage and the case's removable front panel Looks like that
> > > > space though is not designed well because the side of the cage
> > > > facing the front panel is pretty much solid with few vent
> > > > spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm not an
> > > > engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec
> > > > specs indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
> > > >
> > > > I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side
> > > > panel. My question is, what direction should the air flow to
> > > > get the best cooling effect inside the case. Should I set it
> > > > up to take in air from the outside room and blow onto the
> > > > motherboard? Or, should I set it up to blow the air from
> > > > inside the case into the room?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > John
> > > >
> > >
> > > As Rene said in his answer, a front-to-back flow is basic.
> > >
> > > When you're using a computer case, you're the engineer :-)
> > > There have been some absolutely miserable computer cases,
> > > like one where the top of it was an Easy Bake Oven, and
> > > seemed hell bent on damaging hardware. That's why they
> > > made you the engineer, as you couldn't possibly foul
> > > things up as bad as the metal-bangers at the factory.
> > >
> > > When a computer case has random holes (as some do), it's
> > > your job to cover the holes that make no sense. My fav
> > > for this, is sections of cardboard from cereal boxes,
> > > shaped to cover the hole.
> > >
> > > Your front fans, seem to be fitted into a metal tray, with
> > > finger-tighten screws on the right to hold them in place.
> > >
> > > https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_012.jpg
> > >
> >> (
> https://www.pcweenie.com/content/antec-three-hundred-gaming-case
> > > )
> > >
> > > There are holes for the air to come through into the drive
> > > bay area. This is the same as the Sonata. (The difference on the
> > > Sonata, is the SATA cables come off the side facing you, whereas
> > > the 302 seems to be shoving them through a back hole for routing.)
> > >
> > > On the Sonata, there is a "shadow" on
> > > the top drive bay, causing slightly increased top drive
> > > temperature. That's because of some weirdness inside
> > > the front fascia. So while you can see holes like that in
> > > the bay area, the holes "don't count" if something in the
> > > faceplate area blocks air movement.
> > >
> > > https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51um58dNuxL._AC_.jpg
> > >
> > > In the picture here, they don't have any impingement cooling
> > > onto their VRM heatsinks. The blue heatsinks. You can see the
> > > fan for the water cooler. And that's where your build could
> > > locate the exhaust fan if you want. The water cooler fan
> > > would provide a laminar flow of low LPM air over the
> > > VCore sinks.
> > >
> > > https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ib8QPaggL._AC_.jpg
> > >
> > > The hole underneath the motherboard, is handy for extreme
> > > overclocks, where the bottom of the motherboard can be
> > > an area to remove heat. That's to help the VRMs, from the back.
> > >
> > > There is also a hole on the top of the case, for a water cooler,
> > > but for a single fan water cooler. Some cases have a huge area
> > > on top, for a two fan or a three fan water cooler. And the side
> > > fan in this picture, is for cooling a graphics card. We probably
> > > shouldn't say "cooling", more than swirling the air. Large
> > > dumpers of warm air into the chassis, they create a "cloud", and
> > > part of the airflow plan (the front-to-back flow thing), is
> > > removing any clouds. And also, avoiding "dead spots", if there is
> > > no airflow whatsoever in the area.
> > >
> > > https://www.pcweenie.com/images/reviews/hw/antec300_001.jpg
> > >
> > > And that's probably the worst part of this case design, is
> > > deciding what to do with the graphics card area. You could
> > > block the top hole, use the side-hole facing you as exhaust,
> > > use the top-back as exhaust, for four-fan total.
> > >
> > > *******
> > >
> > > A "positive pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the
> > > two (front) drive bay coolers, and that's it.
> > >
> > > A "negative pressure airflow strategy", would be to fit the
> > > top-back and top fans, and pull air through any other hole. In
> > > such a case, you use barriers to block airflow where it isn't
> > > needed, so the airflow velocity in the other areas can be
> > > enhanced.
> > >
> > > My (former) Typing Machine, is a positive pressure design. That's
> > > because the rear of the case, has no exhaust fan hole! The case
> > > was from the year 2000 or so. It tends to get quite dusty.
> > >
> > > My Test Machine, is a negative pressure design, with just the
> > > exhaust fan in the top back. Holes where airflow is not desired,
> > > are covered with cereal box cardboard. The top bay of the Antec
> > > Sonata, does not cool the drive there all that well, and I've
> > > kinda made it a habit to not use the top bay. Your case probably
> > > won't make the same mistake. The dust isn't quite as bad in
> > > the Test Machine. I removed the "filter" in the front of the
> > > Sonata, because if it remained fitted, I'd have to clean it
> > > every three months. Your choice on philosophy there...
> > >
> > > "They gave you plenty of holes." Now, you have to apply strategy,
> > > to cover the unneeded holes and ensure a "defined" strategy.
> > >
> > > I made the mistake once, of placing seven fans on a PC. The
> > > basic airflow was front to back. But some fans were on the
> > > sides too. I did the Kleenex test, and carefully held the
> > > tissue next to some of the side fans. And one of the side
> > > fans, the air actually flowed through the fan backwards.
> > > Which tells you, at best, the fan is useless. Removing the
> > > fan then, and just using it as a vent hole, saves a bit
> > > on noise. Blocking the hole makes sense, if you need more
> > > airflow in some other area. It was because of that
> > > experience with the "seven fan experiment", I no longer
> > > place a premium on tons of side fans. I tried to have
> > > a strategy there, but one of the fans told me "you're
> > > full of shit" :-)
> > >
> > > Ideally, you do a new build on the kitchen table first,
> > > with no computer case. This is extremely easy for
> > > 5600G or 10400 processors with their integrated graphics,
> > > as then there's no graphics card to fall over while you
> > > work on the kitchen table. Using the table method, I
> > > was able to stick my finger on the VCore VRM sink, and
> > > discover a surface temperature of 65C. Which means the
> > > components underneath the heatsink, could be running
> > > 95 to 100C. It's because of that discovery, I have a fan
> > > inside the case, doing impingement cooling on that
> > > heatsink. I also turned off the turbo in the machine,
> > > to prevent overheat. The kitchen table build offers
> > > a chance to check thermals before you put the goods into
> > > the computer case.
> > >
> >> Paul
> >
> > Antec re-designed the case. The first picture you linked to is the
> > Antec 300. The Antec 302 which is what I'm using for this build
> > looks like the 3rd and 4th links you gave. Antec did away with the
> > fan metal tray you mention. Instead, in the 302, the optional fans
> > screw into the metal plate forming part of the case. The front
> > panel is mesh with dust filter and is roomy enough for the 120mm
> > fans to fit height-wise. For the moment, I've added a fan at the
> > front on the bottom and positioned the HD so that the breeze from
> > the fan flows over it. I still have room for another 120mm fan at
> > the front.
> >
> > The 3.5" internal bay cage seems attached in the case using rivets;
> > well, I don't see screws to allow one to remove the cage. Both
> > sides of the cage have punched openings, say 3" or 4" inches long
> > and 3/4" high (eyeball, not measured), so I'm going to guess that
> > air flow from fans attached in front won't be impeded too much.
> > I've used one of those openings to snake a cable or two to tidy
> > things up inside the case.
> >
> > I'm not familiar with the term "impingement cooling. I understand
> > your explanation about searching for unexpected hot spots inside
> > the case but am at a loss about what I could do even if I noticed
> > something like that.
> >
> > At most, I wonder from time to time if someone makes internal
> > thermometers for use inside a pc, like these days you can see such
> > things used by cooks to monitor food being cooked inside an oven. I
> > figure that type of equipment would probably be expensive and don't
> > have a clear idea of how to actually effectively use it in
> > practice. I mean, such equipment is probably out there for
> > purchase, but does it really make sense to buy and install for a
> > home computer. I seem to recall, at least in the past, that
> > computer equipment did not have temperature sensors but relied upon
> > some other type of measurement and used that metric to estimate the
> > CPU temperature.
> >
> > John
> >
>
> Blowing high velocity air at an object, is impingement cooling.
> The idea is to transfer heat from the hot object, into the
> air stream. Even if the air happens to not be leaving
> the area immediately. A blazing hot VCore, can be cooled down
> a bit, and make a warm cloud around the CPU. Then the rear
> (volume) exhaust fan, moves the cloud of warm air out of the
> PC. This allows the "blower" for impingement cooling, to be smaller
> and focused just on a single hot object.
>
> As for measuring temperature, the SuperIO has three thermal channels,
> the CPU has CoreTemp (a diode sensor per CPU core). Those
> are examples of resources in a PC. Modern processors have a
> "fabric" used for management inside the CPU, which can have more
> temp and voltage sensors for controlling turbo and the like.
> But those aren't offered for readout necessarily.
>
> You can add thermal channels, using some tray-mounted products,
> but these things come and go, so every time you're looking
> for one, the shopping experience starts all over again.
> For example, I have a Lian Li two channel readout, but it is
> unfortunately battery powered. Which is just stupid, when there
> is plenty of DC inside the computer to power stuff with.
>
> The disk drive has a temperature sensor (can read out).
>
> The video card GPU has a temperature sensor.
>
> The CPU has sensors.
>
> The motherboard has limited thermal channels. One of them
> might be a case air temperature measurement. These days,
> not all three might be in usage.
>
> Paul

Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:

> After reading your reply, I got curious when you said you do a new
> build on the kitchen table first with no computer case. Do you have
> any special eqpt for that stage of your building. I'd be worried about
> the mobo sitting on the surface of something and shortnig out.

If the table is wood, nothing conductive. Else, use dry cardboard under
the mobo. For cooling, point a table fan at the mobo oriented so its
air flow is from front to rear of mobo. Put the drives in front of the
mobo, so the fan blows over them, too. A 12" table fan can wash a lot
of air over the mobo.

"Yes" <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:sklhig$ip1$1@dont-email.me...
>
> snip <
>
> After reading your reply, I got curious when you said you do a new
> build on the kitchen table first with no computer case. Do you have
> any special eqpt for that stage of your building. I'd be worried about
> the mobo sitting on the surface of something and shortnig out.
>
> I've looked up test benches on Google, both those made for sale
> commercially and as DIY projects. Some of the DIY benches looked
> pretty attractive in a bare bones way and very functional although I
> have no way to know if they helped keep the pc cool.
>
>
In the UK it used to be recommended that you build on a telephone directory
but they are a shadow of their former selves.
The motherboard box was the alternative & is of course, just the right size.

--
Regards
wasbit

"Yes" <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:skf669$bjg$1@dont-email.me...
> I've got an Antec 302 case. The PSU is bottom mounted. Pre-installed
> fans are at the top of the case and at the top of the rear.
> Optionally, fans can be mounted one each on each side of the case and
> two in the front space between the 3.25" bay cage and the case's
> removable front panel Looks like that space though is not designed
> well because the side of the cage facing the front panel is pretty much
> solid with few vent spaces to let air flow freely into the space. I'm
> not an engineer, so that could be a mispection on my part. Antec specs
> indicate they are designed for 120mm fans.
>
> I'm planning to install an additional fan on the right side panel. My
> question is, what direction should the air flow to get the best cooling
> effect inside the case. Should I set it up to take in air from the
> outside room and blow onto the motherboard? Or, should I set it up to
> blow the air from inside the case into the room?
>

One of my gripes about air flow is that we set up the case on the kitchen
table, then stuff the case back in it's cubby hole & wonder why the air flow
doesn't work like it did.
If you really want to see what is going on you can get smoke pellets for
testing chimneys.
By temporarily blocking off the case side with clear perspex or cling film
you can watch what happens inside the case & how blocking or opening vents
affects the air flow.
Lastly, don't forget to see what happens when the side is back on (or not) &
the case is back in it's cubby hole. You might not be able to see inside the
case but you should see the effect the cubby hole has. Just pulling the case
an inch forward can have a beneficial effect.

--
Regards
wasbit

On 10/19/2021 1:03 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> After reading your reply, I got curious when you said you do a new
>> build on the kitchen table first with no computer case. Do you have
>> any special eqpt for that stage of your building. I'd be worried about
>> the mobo sitting on the surface of something and shortnig out.
>
> If the table is wood, nothing conductive. Else, use dry cardboard under
> the mobo. For cooling, point a table fan at the mobo oriented so its
> air flow is from front to rear of mobo. Put the drives in front of the
> mobo, so the fan blows over them, too. A 12" table fan can wash a lot
> of air over the mobo.
>

The electronics standard. A phone book :-)

The info in an old phone book might be worthless,
but it's an insulator.

Paul

On 2021-10-19 6:28 a.m., Paul wrote:
> On 10/19/2021 1:03 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> Yes <noone@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> After reading your reply, I got curious when you said you do a new
>>> build on the kitchen table first with no computer case.  Do you have
>>> any special eqpt for that stage of your building.  I'd be worried about
>>> the mobo sitting on the surface of something and shortnig out.
>>
>> If the table is wood, nothing conductive.  Else, use dry cardboard under
>> the mobo.  For cooling, point a table fan at the mobo oriented so its
>> air flow is from front to rear of mobo.  Put the drives in front of the
>> mobo, so the fan blows over them, too.  A 12" table fan can wash a lot
>> of air over the mobo.
>>
>
> The electronics standard. A phone book :-)
>
> The info in an old phone book might be worthless,
> but it's an insulator.
>
>    Paul
>

Alternatively , the motherboard box.

Rene