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devel / comp.theory / Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

SubjectAuthor
* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
+* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
|`* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| +* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |`* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| | `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |  +- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Python
| |  +- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |  `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |   `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |    +* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |    |`* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Richard Damon
| |    | `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |    |  `- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Richard Damon
| |    `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |     `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |      +* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Richard Damon
| |      |`* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |      | `- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Richard Damon
| |      `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |       +* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |       |`* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |       | `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |       |  `- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |       `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |        `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |         `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |          `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |           `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| |            `* 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
| |             `- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Graham Cooper
| `- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Ben Bacarisse
`- 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !Richard Damon

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Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

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Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
From: grahamco...@gmail.com (Graham Cooper)
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 by: Graham Cooper - Fri, 14 Apr 2023 09:43 UTC

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 11:38:58 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:59:39 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 5:30:23 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> >> provided we permit
> >> >> infinite computations, a TM can compute BB(n). That's true
> >> >
> >> > OK!
> >> >
> >> > so a computer
> >> What is a computer? Cite the defintion you are using.
> >> > can work out all values of Busy Beaver
> >> What does "can work out all values of ..." mean?
> >
> > you want me to define computer ??
> Yes, of course.

Its not trivial to define computer. One must outline logic gates,
CPUs, memory, buses, peripherals, clocks, analog computers,
computation models, equivalence of computation models,
input and output methods, programming languages.

It would be a week or months work and the "definition" would be
too large to be called a definition.

For the purposes of "computation"

a computer performs computations

but its a self evident truth and serves no purpose.

Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

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Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:31 UTC

Graham Cooper <grahamcooper7@gmail.com> writes:

> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 8:18:06 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> > COMPUTABLE PROBLEM
>> > in finite time computer can display the answer to the problem and stop
>> > updating that answer
>>
>> Since this is, presumably, the best you can do to address the issues I
>> rained, I propose we leave it here.
>
> Its quite practical,

I was talking about the discussion. If you can't, or won't, say what
you are talking about, I don't see any way forward.

> IT ITS SOLVED (in finite time) ITS SOLVED!

.... for some value of "IT". Will there be a proper paper, or do you
plan to take this secret to grave?

--
Ben.

Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

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Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:38 UTC

Graham Cooper <grahamcooper7@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 11:38:58 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:59:39 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 5:30:23 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> provided we permit
>> >> >> infinite computations, a TM can compute BB(n). That's true
>> >> >
>> >> > OK!
>> >> >
>> >> > so a computer
>> >> What is a computer? Cite the defintion you are using.
>> >> > can work out all values of Busy Beaver
>> >> What does "can work out all values of ..." mean?
>> >
>> > you want me to define computer ??
>> Yes, of course.
>
> Its not trivial to define computer.

There are lots of formal models already, and they have all been proven
to be "computationally equivalent". The theorems I thought you were
talking about are all in reference to these.

> One must outline logic gates,
> CPUs, memory, buses, peripherals, clocks, analog computers,
> computation models, equivalence of computation models,
> input and output methods, programming languages.

Ah. I thought you knew what you were talking about. My mistake. The
theorem that I mistook you to be talking about pertains to a very simple
model of computation (and the proof references another).

--
Ben.

Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

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Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
From: grahamco...@gmail.com (Graham Cooper)
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 by: Graham Cooper - Fri, 14 Apr 2023 23:58 UTC

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 9:38:10 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 11:38:58 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:59:39 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 5:30:23 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> >> >> provided we permit
> >> >> >> infinite computations, a TM can compute BB(n). That's true
> >> >> >
> >> >> > OK!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > so a computer
> >> >> What is a computer? Cite the defintion you are using.
> >> >> > can work out all values of Busy Beaver
> >> >> What does "can work out all values of ..." mean?
> >> >
> >> > you want me to define computer ??
> >> Yes, of course.
> >
> > Its not trivial to define computer.
> There are lots of formal models already, and they have all been proven
> to be "computationally equivalent". The theorems I thought you were
> talking about are all in reference to these.
> > One must outline logic gates,
> > CPUs, memory, buses, peripherals, clocks, analog computers,
> > computation models, equivalence of computation models,
> > input and output methods, programming languages.
> Ah. I thought you knew what you were talking about. My mistake. The
> theorem that I mistook you to be talking about pertains to a very simple
> model of computation (and the proof references another).
>

Oh you meant define COMPUTATION

Define computer is like DEFINE SPACE SHUTTLE or DEFINE HUMAN BEING

This thread is ALREADY WON!

1/ A TM CAN COMPUTE BB(n)
BEN: 1 is certainly an option.

=====================

That's all I need regarding showing 'un-computable' is a MYTH

I have CANTOR, GODEL and HALT all nailed! BB was the final myth and you conclusively showed its computability.

Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

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Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Sat, 15 Apr 2023 00:25 UTC

Graham Cooper <grahamcooper7@gmail.com> writes:

> On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 9:38:10 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 11:38:58 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:59:39 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 5:30:23 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> >> provided we permit
>> >> >> >> infinite computations, a TM can compute BB(n). That's true
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > OK!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > so a computer
>> >> >> What is a computer? Cite the defintion you are using.
>> >> >> > can work out all values of Busy Beaver
>> >> >> What does "can work out all values of ..." mean?
>> >> >
>> >> > you want me to define computer ??
>> >> Yes, of course.
>> >
>> > Its not trivial to define computer.
>> There are lots of formal models already, and they have all been proven
>> to be "computationally equivalent". The theorems I thought you were
>> talking about are all in reference to these.
>> > One must outline logic gates,
>> > CPUs, memory, buses, peripherals, clocks, analog computers,
>> > computation models, equivalence of computation models,
>> > input and output methods, programming languages.
>>
>> Ah. I thought you knew what you were talking about. My mistake. The
>> theorem that I mistook you to be talking about pertains to a very simple
>> model of computation (and the proof references another).
>
> Oh you meant define COMPUTATION

Don't be disingenuous -- you brought it up. You said "so a computer can
work out all values of Busy Beaver" so that's what I asked you to
define. And I included "work out" and also needed to be pinned down.

But it turns out you are not claiming anything new:

> 1/ A TM CAN COMPUTE BB(n)
> BEN: 1 is certainly an option.

The oracle TMs that can compute BB(n) are in all the textbooks. There's
nothing for you to be boasting about. Why have you been pretending that
you have something new to say?

--
Ben.

Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

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Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
From: grahamco...@gmail.com (Graham Cooper)
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 by: Graham Cooper - Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:28 UTC

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:25:50 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 9:38:10 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 11:38:58 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:59:39 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> >> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 5:30:23 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> >> >> >> >> provided we permit
> >> >> >> >> infinite computations, a TM can compute BB(n). That's true
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > OK!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > so a computer
> >> >> >> What is a computer? Cite the defintion you are using.
> >> >> >> > can work out all values of Busy Beaver
> >> >> >> What does "can work out all values of ..." mean?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > you want me to define computer ??
> >> >> Yes, of course.
> >> >
> >> > Its not trivial to define computer.
> >> There are lots of formal models already, and they have all been proven
> >> to be "computationally equivalent". The theorems I thought you were
> >> talking about are all in reference to these.
> >> > One must outline logic gates,
> >> > CPUs, memory, buses, peripherals, clocks, analog computers,
> >> > computation models, equivalence of computation models,
> >> > input and output methods, programming languages.
> >>
> >> Ah. I thought you knew what you were talking about. My mistake. The
> >> theorem that I mistook you to be talking about pertains to a very simple
> >> model of computation (and the proof references another).
> >
> > Oh you meant define COMPUTATION
> Don't be disingenuous -- you brought it up. You said "so a computer can
> work out all values of Busy Beaver" so that's what I asked you to
> define. And I included "work out" and also needed to be pinned down.
>
> But it turns out you are not claiming anything new:
> > 1/ A TM CAN COMPUTE BB(n)
> > BEN: 1 is certainly an option.
> The oracle TMs that can compute BB(n) are in all the textbooks. There's
> nothing for you to be boasting about. Why have you been pretending that
> you have something new to say?
>

Then you defeated yourself

> BUSY BEAVER IS UNCOMPUTABLE - MYTH

[BEN]
I doubt you have ever read Rado's proof. If you have, can you point out
a flaw in it?

[BEN]
A TM CAN COMPUTE BB(n) is certainly an option.

Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

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From: ben.use...@bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2023 00:35:41 +0100
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 by: Ben Bacarisse - Sat, 15 Apr 2023 23:35 UTC

Graham Cooper <grahamcooper7@gmail.com> writes:

> On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:25:50 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 9:38:10 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 11:38:58 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 10:59:39 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> >> Graham Cooper <graham...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 5:30:23 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> provided we permit
>> >> >> >> >> infinite computations, a TM can compute BB(n). That's true
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > OK!
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > so a computer
>> >> >> >> What is a computer? Cite the defintion you are using.
>> >> >> >> > can work out all values of Busy Beaver
>> >> >> >> What does "can work out all values of ..." mean?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > you want me to define computer ??
>> >> >> Yes, of course.
>> >> >
>> >> > Its not trivial to define computer.
>> >> There are lots of formal models already, and they have all been proven
>> >> to be "computationally equivalent". The theorems I thought you were
>> >> talking about are all in reference to these.
>> >> > One must outline logic gates,
>> >> > CPUs, memory, buses, peripherals, clocks, analog computers,
>> >> > computation models, equivalence of computation models,
>> >> > input and output methods, programming languages.
>> >>
>> >> Ah. I thought you knew what you were talking about. My mistake. The
>> >> theorem that I mistook you to be talking about pertains to a very simple
>> >> model of computation (and the proof references another).
>> >
>> > Oh you meant define COMPUTATION
>> Don't be disingenuous -- you brought it up. You said "so a computer can
>> work out all values of Busy Beaver" so that's what I asked you to
>> define. And I included "work out" and also needed to be pinned down.
>>
>> But it turns out you are not claiming anything new:
>> > 1/ A TM CAN COMPUTE BB(n)
>> > BEN: 1 is certainly an option.
>> The oracle TMs that can compute BB(n) are in all the textbooks. There's
>> nothing for you to be boasting about. Why have you been pretending that
>> you have something new to say?
>
> Then you defeated yourself
>
>> BUSY BEAVER IS UNCOMPUTABLE - MYTH
>
> [BEN]
> I doubt you have ever read Rado's proof. If you have, can you point out
> a flaw in it?
>
> [BEN]
> A TM CAN COMPUTE BB(n) is certainly an option.

You are not interested in a discussion. You are now running round the
playground jumping up and down shouting trying to get attention.

--
Ben.

Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !

<9e47c178-5d95-4ae7-a899-445ab13df445n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: 'UN-COMPUTABLE' is the biggest MYTH in the world !
From: grahamco...@gmail.com (Graham Cooper)
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 by: Graham Cooper - Sun, 16 Apr 2023 01:14 UTC

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 9:35:44 AM UTC+10, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> > [BEN]
> > A TM CAN COMPUTE BB(n) is certainly an option.
> You are not interested in a discussion. You are now running round the
> playground jumping up and down shouting trying to get attention.
>

I gave my DEFINITION of EFFECTIVELY-COMPUTABLE
and you dismissed it without argument or another defn.

The OP claim was there is no such thing as un-computable

BB doesn't refute this claim.

All the examples are detailed at

www.NEW-MATH.com

EG GODEL
simply interpret false as NAT (Not Always True) in ALL LOGIC
as
TRUE <-/-> NAT

holds even with an inconsistency

If you refuse to discuss dont blame me for lack of discussion.

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