On 2023-11-05 13:58, Frankie wrote:
> On 5/11/2023, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>> The Post only looked at a single cherry picked datapoint
>>
>> Uhm - no. They didn't.
>
> Look again.
>
> It's a cherry picked statistic that completely ignored lifetime costs.

Not at all.

>
> Apple's lifetime costs are always double to triple that of Android.

Inane. I asked you to illustrate that in another post - you ignored it
because you can't.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 6/11/2023, Alan Browne wrote:

>> It's a cherry picked statistic that completely ignored lifetime costs.
>
> Not at all.

When you average the huge waste of owning Apple products where you have to
overcome the loss of ports and missing slots and proprietary cabling and
repair costs so far off the charts everyone pays high ransoms to AppleCare,
it's always 2X to 3X the overall cost of owning similar Android devices.

Doesn't it occur to you that's why Apple profits are so very high?

Or do you think Apple's profits are off the charts because they're not
fleecing you every time you have to buy something that is free on Android?

People like you pay many times what Android costs & then brag about getting
a very tiny amount of your wasted money back in what you call resale value.

Apple makes all that money off of people like you.

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote

> [...]> There is no "comparable" iPhone to even my free Android phone.
>
> Why should it be so? iPhones have a completely different audience who
> does not need all these features.

Arno,
You can always make a sensible logical statement when you converse with me
as I will do the same with you - so that we both learn from each other.

My main point is the iPhone is a toy that can't possibly compare to a real
phone, just as a Barbie doll is a toy which can't possibly compare to a
real person - despite Apple's desperate marketing claims to the contrary.

The fact is that I've asked for many years on the iPhone newsgroups if they
(the participants) can find even a _single_ useful app functionality that
the iPhone does that Android doesn't already do - and they can't find
anything - even with the fact they're logging into the Apple mothership
tracking servers every day (which is how most of what they like gets done).

Notice there is no need to ask the opposite question, as I can list off
just the top of my head a dozen extremely useful things that Android apps
do that are impossible to do on any iPhone - which was my main point.

In terms of app functionality, the iPhone is crippled in what it can do.
It's a toy. It's like a pink barbie-doll. It's not a real thing.

Now if all you do on that iPhone is make calls, text, and play games, then
all you _need_ in a "smart" phone is a dumb phone that does those things.

But if you actually expect a "smart" phone to do useful things, then you'll
never purchase an iPhone because the iPhone is crippled in functionality.

Again, I completely get your point that if people use a "smart" phone as a
"dumb" phone, i.e., what I would call a toy, then the iPhone is just fine.

BTW, there is a very good reason for why the iPhone is just a toy phone.
a. Most functionality is created by developers (not Apple or Google)
b. Apple severely restricts what the app developers' apps can do
c. Google can't

This logical and sensible assessment of the facts is why I assess the
iPhone as a "dumb phone" (or more accurately, a "toy phone"), Arno.

Your point is that a "toy phone" is perfectly acceptable to Apple
aficionados, and i would fully and heartily agree with that statement.

However...

People like Alan Brown have to completely ignore that the iPhone is
crippeled, which means they can only then compare "comparable toy phones"
if they want to make the same statements that Alan Browne attempts to make
- which is unfair to Android since there is no comparable iPhone ever built
to even the least expensive (free, in my case, plus tax) Android phone.

Note the statement that I'm making is based on pure facts, Arno:
*Even my free Android phone is more powerful than any iPhone*
*ever sold in terms of what it does as a "smart phone".*

In terms of funcdtionality, there is no comparable iPhone.
Not even to my free Android phone.

Which makes all these resale-price comparisons absurd, Arno.

People like Alan Brown _pretend_ that an iPhone is a real phone.
Just as a little girl pretends the Barbie doll is a real person.

But the iPhone is crippled.
It can't do thousands of things that Android does.

And yet, Android does _everything_ that the iPhone could ever hope to do.
And there are good reasons for that fact - see the logic I said above.

a. Apple severely restricts the functionality of the iPhone
b. Both in hardware (e.g., slots & ports) and in software (see prior)
c. Google can't.

This is pure logic.
Pure sense.

My statements are all rational. Reasonable. Sensible. Accurate. Factual.

All others can do is _ignore_ that the iPhone is crippled in functionality.
In doing so, they completely ignore the iPhone is merely a crippled toy.

Which is, after all, what every little girl does with her Barbie doll.
But that doesn't mean a Barbie doll is comparable to a human, does it?
--
On Usenet you sometimes meet people who have a logical and sensible
opinion, which is based on the facts of the matter & not on advertising.

On 2023-11-06 00:26, Frankie wrote:
> On 6/11/2023, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>> It's a cherry picked statistic that completely ignored lifetime costs.
>>
>> Not at all.
>
> When you average the huge waste of owning Apple products where you have to
> overcome the loss of ports and missing slots and proprietary cabling and
> repair costs so far off the charts everyone pays high ransoms to AppleCare,
> it's always 2X to 3X the overall cost of owning similar Android devices.

You can't come up with proof of that, of course. Since my devices in
the past came with all the cables I've ever needed, there is no cost to
add more.

The only additional cable I've ever bought is for my car just because I
wanted the shortest version possible to avoid cable clutter.

That's it. No other costs at all. On my 3rd iPhone.

Ironically Europe's absurd rules will likely force me to buy 2 or 3
cables when I eventually get a new phone (to cover the office, car and
home office).

> Doesn't it occur to you that's why Apple profits are so very high?

That's not why their profits are so high.

On all of their products, they command high margins because the phones
(and other products) are popular. And they are popular because they are
very good.

And in the right use case, integrate across Apple devices so seamlessly
that one tends to not notice it going on.

> Or do you think Apple's profits are off the charts because they're not
> fleecing you every time you have to buy something that is free on Android?

I've never been forced to buy anything extra from Apple to keep my Apple
things going. Once case (above) was for "neatness".

>
> People like you pay many times what Android costs & then brag about getting
> a very tiny amount of your wasted money back in what you call resale value.
>
> Apple makes all that money off of people like you.

Good for them and good that several mutual funds of mine hold Apple stock.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-11-06 14:02, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 00:26, Frankie wrote:
>> On 6/11/2023, Alan Browne wrote:
>>
>>>> It's a cherry picked statistic that completely ignored lifetime costs.
>>>
>>> Not at all.
>>
>> When you average the huge waste of owning Apple products where you
>> have to
>> overcome the loss of ports and missing slots and proprietary cabling and
>> repair costs so far off the charts everyone pays high ransoms to
>> AppleCare,
>> it's always 2X to 3X the overall cost of owning similar Android devices.
>
> You can't come up with proof of that, of course.  Since my devices in
> the past came with all the cables I've ever needed, there is no cost to
> add more.

I remember a kid that got an Apple tablet (I don't know the proper name)
as a present from an uncle, who also came to configure it all for the
first time. Then the father bought him a foldable case, and had to pay
for it a hefty price. He commented on it to me, saying how expensive was
to own that Apple tablet, the housefold being otherwise on Android.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-06 08:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 14:02, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 00:26, Frankie wrote:
>>> On 6/11/2023, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's a cherry picked statistic that completely ignored lifetime costs.
>>>>
>>>> Not at all.
>>>
>>> When you average the huge waste of owning Apple products where you
>>> have to
>>> overcome the loss of ports and missing slots and proprietary cabling and
>>> repair costs so far off the charts everyone pays high ransoms to
>>> AppleCare,
>>> it's always 2X to 3X the overall cost of owning similar Android devices.
>>
>> You can't come up with proof of that, of course.  Since my devices in
>> the past came with all the cables I've ever needed, there is no cost
>> to add more.
>
> I remember a kid that got an Apple tablet (I don't know the proper name)
> as a present from an uncle, who also came to configure it all for the
> first time. Then the father bought him a foldable case, and had to pay
> for it a hefty price. He commented on it to me, saying how expensive was
> to own that Apple tablet, the housefold being otherwise on Android.

So buying an over priced case in a marketplace of thousands of lower
priced options plays into this? Sheesh.

Anyway, samples of one, picked for the comments, as always don't
represent the whole - not even close.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-11-06 14:32, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 08:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 14:02, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-06 00:26, Frankie wrote:
>>>> On 6/11/2023, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> It's a cherry picked statistic that completely ignored lifetime
>>>>>> costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not at all.
>>>>
>>>> When you average the huge waste of owning Apple products where you
>>>> have to
>>>> overcome the loss of ports and missing slots and proprietary cabling
>>>> and
>>>> repair costs so far off the charts everyone pays high ransoms to
>>>> AppleCare,
>>>> it's always 2X to 3X the overall cost of owning similar Android
>>>> devices.
>>>
>>> You can't come up with proof of that, of course.  Since my devices in
>>> the past came with all the cables I've ever needed, there is no cost
>>> to add more.
>>
>> I remember a kid that got an Apple tablet (I don't know the proper
>> name) as a present from an uncle, who also came to configure it all
>> for the first time. Then the father bought him a foldable case, and
>> had to pay for it a hefty price. He commented on it to me, saying how
>> expensive was to own that Apple tablet, the housefold being otherwise
>> on Android.
>
> So buying an over priced case in a marketplace of thousands of lower
> priced options plays into this?  Sheesh.

Apple stuff.

Wen we have to buy Apple stuff we have to pay by the nose. Android Stuff
is cheaper.

It just is.

So when we have to decide what brand to buy a tablet or phone, that
enters our consideration, not being fans.

> Anyway, samples of one, picked for the comments, as always don't
> represent the whole - not even close.

Oh, but I had dozens of similar experiences in the last forty years or
so. Everybody I talked with along the years commented that owning an
Apple thing was expensive.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Wally J, 2023-11-06 10:43:

> Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote
>
>> [...]> There is no "comparable" iPhone to even my free Android phone.
>>
>> Why should it be so? iPhones have a completely different audience who
>> does not need all these features.
>
> Arno,
> You can always make a sensible logical statement when you converse with me
> as I will do the same with you - so that we both learn from each other.
>
> My main point is the iPhone is a toy that can't possibly compare to a real
> phone, just as a Barbie doll is a toy which can't possibly compare to a
> real person - despite Apple's desperate marketing claims to the contrary.

So what? If people like it this way - why not? I don't care.

Or do you want to tell all the people who own an iPhone that they should
dump it and get a "real" phone?

BTW: my private "daily driver" at the moment is a Google Pixel 6a and
the company I work for gave me an iPhone SE. The iPhone SE does the job
to be available when needed - and that's all that counts for the company
along with the possibility to easily manage all the company phones via
mobile device management which is literally impossible with Android with
most devices.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

On 2023-11-06 12:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 14:32, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 08:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-06 14:02, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-06 00:26, Frankie wrote:
>>>>> On 6/11/2023, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a cherry picked statistic that completely ignored lifetime
>>>>>>> costs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you average the huge waste of owning Apple products where you
>>>>> have to
>>>>> overcome the loss of ports and missing slots and proprietary
>>>>> cabling and
>>>>> repair costs so far off the charts everyone pays high ransoms to
>>>>> AppleCare,
>>>>> it's always 2X to 3X the overall cost of owning similar Android
>>>>> devices.
>>>>
>>>> You can't come up with proof of that, of course.  Since my devices
>>>> in the past came with all the cables I've ever needed, there is no
>>>> cost to add more.
>>>
>>> I remember a kid that got an Apple tablet (I don't know the proper
>>> name) as a present from an uncle, who also came to configure it all
>>> for the first time. Then the father bought him a foldable case, and
>>> had to pay for it a hefty price. He commented on it to me, saying how
>>> expensive was to own that Apple tablet, the housefold being otherwise
>>> on Android.
>>
>> So buying an over priced case in a marketplace of thousands of lower
>> priced options plays into this?  Sheesh.
>
> Apple stuff.
>
> Wen we have to buy Apple stuff we have to pay by the nose. Android Stuff
> is cheaper.
>
> It just is.

In your head.

>
> So when we have to decide what brand to buy a tablet or phone, that
> enters our consideration, not being fans.
>
>> Anyway, samples of one, picked for the comments, as always don't
>> represent the whole - not even close.
>
> Oh, but I had dozens of similar experiences in the last forty years or
> so. Everybody I talked with along the years commented that owning an
> Apple thing was expensive.

Sure.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote

>> My main point is the iPhone is a toy that can't possibly compare to a real
>> phone, just as a Barbie doll is a toy which can't possibly compare to a
>> real person - despite Apple's desperate marketing claims to the contrary.
>
> So what? If people like it this way - why not? I don't care.

Hi Arno,

I just now created this screenshot so that I can learn from you, especially
since you speak of the issue of managing the platforms for work & for play.
<https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles

You seem to be intelligent and hence you can think rationally, where I am
never disagreeing that plenty of people don't need a phone to do much.

I am always reasonable in that I understand your point of view which is
that an iPhone, even though it's crippled, is all many people ever need.

Plenty of people don't need the privacy of the Tor Browser, for example.
Nor do people need the ability to watch YouTube videos freely without ads.
Plenty of people wouldn't know a firewall from a GPS spoofing app, I agree.

> Or do you want to tell all the people who own an iPhone that they should
> dump it and get a "real" phone?

I do not disagree with you that if all you do with the iPhone is text,
talk, watch videos and play games - it's a perfectly functional phone.

My point was only that there is no comparable iPhone to Android _if_ you
want do use the phone for more than just bare-minimum basic functionality.

And if bare-minimum functionality is all you need, then that's likely why
Apple concentrates on marketing the "YELLOW!" color & "TITANIUM!" body.

> BTW: my private "daily driver" at the moment is a Google Pixel 6a and
> the company I work for gave me an iPhone SE.

There are advantages to owning _both_ devices, which you and I do, but
remember most of the iKooks I'm responding to have never touched Android.

The only thing these iKooks know about Android is what Apple told them.
Apple can't compete on functionality so they aim for meaningless bling.

> The iPhone SE does the job to be available when needed - and that's all
> that counts for the company...

While my DD is currently a free Samsung Galaxy, rest assured I use an iPad
every single day & be advised I have plenty of iPhones & iPads in my house.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YC1B906F/tmopromo01.jpg> A32-5G & iPhone 12 contract
<https://i.postimg.cc/Xq5SpS4D/tmopromo02.jpg> $15/mo iPhone,$0/mo Android
<https://i.postimg.cc/nhpbcP50/tmopromo04.jpg> $100 for 6 lines + $16 fees

There are actually some things an iPad does _better_ than Android, in fact.

For example, when you use Google Voice (which I use daily) Google _creates_
an account on Android but that doesn't happen when you use GV on the iPad.

> ... along with the possibility to easily manage all the company phones
> via mobile device management which is literally impossible with Android
> with most devices.

Hmmm... maybe there's something to that, where you seem to know a lot more
about this work/personal profile stuff than I do - as I've never used it.

My Android has not only the basic ability of multiple users, but each user
can have a work profile (managed by the IT department) and a personal one.

This is extremely basic stuff, by the way, that every platform can do.
Right?

I just made this screenshot for you even as I've never used the work
profile myself, but I turned it on so that I could make this shot for you.
<https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles

Can the iPhone do that basic multi-user multi-profile functionality?

If so, I can learn from you if you can help answer why not just have an
iPhone/Android set up for personal & work profiles where a work IT
department manages a work profile & a user manages their personal profile?
--
Usenet is an approach to find people who know more than you do, & then to
discuss problems with them such that you learn from their added knowledge.

On 11/4/2023 5:20 AM, badgolferman wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>
>> "The iPhone is obviously superior at one thing. Ask your wallet."
>> -WaPo
>> https://wapo.st/45Ya1CH
>>
>
> Do you actually resale your phone or does it go in the drawer as a spare?
> I’m leery of buying used phones unless they’re coming from someone I know.
> And the times I do buy a phone it’s because the one I have is broken or too
> old. They end up in the drawer or given to recycle programs. I guess some
> people buy a new phone every year just to boast about it.

The TCO of a flagship Android versus a flagship iPhone is very close.
The Android device will have a slightly lower initial cost but will also
have lower trade-in value or resale value.

For non-flagship devices it is probably also the case.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

Wally J, 2023-11-06 21:50:

> Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote
>
>>> My main point is the iPhone is a toy that can't possibly compare to a real
>>> phone, just as a Barbie doll is a toy which can't possibly compare to a
>>> real person - despite Apple's desperate marketing claims to the contrary.
>>
>> So what? If people like it this way - why not? I don't care.
>
> Hi Arno,
>
> I just now created this screenshot so that I can learn from you, especially
> since you speak of the issue of managing the platforms for work & for play.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles

This is not what I am talking about.

Apple offers a centralized management for all comapny devices *without*
*any* interaction needed on the device itself. No "work" profile and
more important: no "private" profile where employess can do whatever
they want. On the iPhone SE I can do exactly *nothing* except using the
apps which are installed by the company. That's one of the reasons why
Apple is so widespread in this area: one manufacturer and one device
with a few different models. With Android you have many manufacturers
with many customized Android versions and unknown security issues which
are often the result of the customizations.

You may not remember that - but when Android was still quite new, HTC
managed to "implement" a massive security hole to their custom version:

<https://www.pcworld.com/article/477035/massive_security_vulnerability_in_htc_android_phones_claimed.html>

And all those "root hacks" in the past often worked by exploiting some
kind vulnerability in the custom recovery ROM of the manufacturer.
Nowadays this is often not neccessary any longer since even Google
officially allows you to unlock the bootloader and install an
alternative system like LineageOS - of course you have to give up things
like Google Pay then.

Yes, the situation with Android improved over the last 5 years and with
"Android Enterprise" there is a similar solution for Android as it
exists for iPhone. But Google started quite late with that, after
Samsung invented "Knox" first, and many companies still prefer Apple
because Android has this image of being a fragmented system where you
never know what a vendor implemented and what not.

[...]
> My point was only that there is no comparable iPhone to Android _if_ you
> want do use the phone for more than just bare-minimum basic functionality.

So what? I don't care if iPhones are comparable with anything at all. I
use one as an employee and I don't care if the iPhone is comparable to
my Android device. At least the apps on the iPhone, which I got
installed, provide more than just "bare-minimum basic functionality".
For example I can access company files like Word, Excel etc.. and I can
do video calls and can transfer a running video call to my laptop
without interrupting it and vice versa. Very comfortable when I am in a
hurry to leave the office but I don't want to take my laptop with me.

Of course if you define the use of Tor browser as a requirement for
"advanced functionality" then yes, the iPhone is just a basic smartphone.

[...]
> If so, I can learn from you if you can help answer why not just have an
> iPhone/Android set up for personal & work profiles where a work IT
> department manages a work profile & a user manages their personal profile?

Depending on the requirements maybe because of security reasons.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
>> ... along with the possibility to easily manage all the company phones
>> via mobile device management which is literally impossible with Android
>> with most devices.
>
> Hmmm... maybe there's something to that, where you seem to know a lot more
> about this work/personal profile stuff than I do - as I've never used it.
>
> My Android has not only the basic ability of multiple users, but each user
> can have a work profile (managed by the IT department) and a personal one.
>
> This is extremely basic stuff, by the way, that every platform can do.
> Right?
>
> I just made this screenshot for you even as I've never used the work
> profile myself, but I turned it on so that I could make this shot for you.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles
>
> Can the iPhone do that basic multi-user multi-profile functionality?
>
> If so, I can learn from you if you can help answer why not just have an
> iPhone/Android set up for personal & work profiles where a work IT
> department manages a work profile & a user manages their personal profile?

Arlen, iPhones don’t have multiple user profiles like Androids do. Also MDM
is a completely different thing than multiple user profiles. I can’t tell
you all the details because I don’t know, but my work phone has MDM
installed.

MDM gives the IT Department the ability to remotely manage your phone
without any user interaction. If necessary they can wipe your phone clean
if you report it lost. MDM provides special certificates and automatic VPN
profiles which makes a phone become part of the approved network to the
point where you can open encrypted emails and access confidential servers.
There are many more things MDM can do which I can’t speak of intelligently.

I’m sure Android can do some of these things too but iPhone was approved
for restricted access long before Android was. I first had the BlackBerry
Storm but that was a piece of crap. I tried to avoid the iPhones but that
was my only option if I wanted remote access to email. This is why my first
iPhone was the 4 model. Android was not available from my employer because
it couldn’t be locked down. I think the option to have an Android phone
wasn’t available until 3-4 years ago and even then we couldn’t open
encrypted emails. I don’t know if that has changed since.

I’ve been using iPhones since 2009 and have been tempted to switch my
personal phone to an Android, but am getting too old and lazy to learn
something new. With all its limitations, I’ve adapted and the iPhone works
good enough for me.

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 16:50:52 -0400, Wally J wrote:

>>> My main point is the iPhone is a toy that can't possibly compare to a real
>>> phone, just as a Barbie doll is a toy which can't possibly compare to a
>>> real person - despite Apple's desperate marketing claims to the contrary.
>>
>> So what? If people like it this way - why not? I don't care.
>
> Hi Arno,
>
> I just now created this screenshot so that I can learn from you, especially
> since you speak of the issue of managing the platforms for work & for play.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles

The iPhone can't do any of that multiuser stuff & persona/work profiles.
That's why security based corporations ban the use of iPhones as insecure.
Only Android has those capabilities of multiple users and multi-profiles.

On 2023-11-07 17:28, Wolf Greenblatt wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 16:50:52 -0400, Wally J wrote:
>
>>>> My main point is the iPhone is a toy that can't possibly compare to a real
>>>> phone, just as a Barbie doll is a toy which can't possibly compare to a
>>>> real person - despite Apple's desperate marketing claims to the contrary.
>>>
>>> So what? If people like it this way - why not? I don't care.
>>
>> Hi Arno,
>>
>> I just now created this screenshot so that I can learn from you, especially
>> since you speak of the issue of managing the platforms for work & for play.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles
>
> The iPhone can't do any of that multiuser stuff & persona/work profiles.
> That's why security based corporations ban the use of iPhones as insecure.
> Only Android has those capabilities of multiple users and multi-profiles.

Give an examples of such bans...

Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote

>> I just now created this screenshot so that I can learn from you, especially
>> since you speak of the issue of managing the platforms for work & for play.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles
>
> This is not what I am talking about.

Good.
My point is that you can't compare iOS to Android because iOS is crippled.

Remember, I am not like most people in that I discuss facts.
I make rational and sensible assessments of those facts.

Rest assured, I am very well aware that every common consumer operating
system _except iOS_ has the basic ability to set it up for multiple users.

It's only iOS that's crippled by complete lack of multi-user capability.
> Apple offers a centralized management for all comapny devices *without*
> *any* interaction needed on the device itself.
> No "work" profile and more important: no "private" profile where employess
> can do whatever they want.

Exactly my point.
There is no comparative iPhone to Android because iOS is born crippled.

> On the iPhone SE I can do exactly *nothing* except using the
> apps which are installed by the company.

Exactly my point. What's different about iOS is that it is born crippled.

> That's one of the reasons why
> Apple is so widespread in this area: one manufacturer and one device
> with a few different models.
> With Android you have many manufacturers
> with many customized Android versions and unknown security issues which
> are often the result of the customizations.

It's not just Android. It's _every other operating system_ except Apple's
crippled operating systems (although macOS isn't as crippled as iOS is).

Every common consumer operating system _except_ iOS, for example, can add
the privacy of the tor browser. It's only iOS that can't have that privacy.

<https://support.torproject.org/tormobile/tormobile-3/>
"Can I run Tor Browser on an iOS device? Apple requires all
browsers on iOS to use something called Webkit,
which prevents any iOS browser from having the same privacy
protections as Tor Browser."

You can't compare Android to iOS when iOS can't do thousands (upon
thousands) of useful things (like having any privacy for one).

Try to install GPS spoofing software on non-jailbroken iOS, Arno.
You can't have that kind of privacy on iOS.

Try installing a system-wide firewall on non-jailbroken iOS, Arno.
Again, you can't have that kind of privacy on iOS.

The point is there can never be any comparison of iOS to Android.
Simply because iOS is born a crippled (aka toy) operating system.

> You may not remember that - but when Android was still quite new, HTC
> managed to "implement" a massive security hole to their custom version:
>
> <https://www.pcworld.com/article/477035/massive_security_vulnerability_in_htc_android_phones_claimed.html>
>
> And all those "root hacks" in the past often worked by exploiting some
> kind vulnerability in the custom recovery ROM of the manufacturer.
> Nowadays this is often not neccessary any longer since even Google
> officially allows you to unlock the bootloader and install an
> alternative system like LineageOS - of course you have to give up things
> like Google Pay then.

Stop preaching iOS security please. It's bullshit. Leave that to marketing.
Anyway who tries to claim iOS is "more secure" is ignorant that iOS
historically has two to three times the number of zero-day holes.

And ten times the number of exploits in the wild.
<https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog>

Worse, Apple has _never_ supported more than one OS version at a time.
<https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-flaws-in-latest-os-releases>

So please don't pull the security card as iOS is extremely insecure,
as is macOS (ever hear of WebKit flaws & numerous kernel flaws?).

BTW, if you don't know that iOS is exploited ten times more than
Android is, it means all you know is Apple's advertised bullshit.

> Yes, the situation with Android improved over the last 5 years and with
> "Android Enterprise" there is a similar solution for Android as it
> exists for iPhone. But Google started quite late with that, after
> Samsung invented "Knox" first, and many companies still prefer Apple
> because Android has this image of being a fragmented system where you
> never know what a vendor implemented and what not.

First off, Android is far more secure than iOS and if you don't know that,
then it means you're only looking at Apple's brilliant glossy brochures.

Secondly, Apple only fully supports a _single_ release - which - again - if
you don't know that - then you need to learn about how Apple really works.

Thirdly, because iOS is a primitive monolith, iOS has far more zero-day
holes than Android - which if you don't know that, then again, you need to
stop reading only Apple advertisements - and read about the numerous webkit
and kernel exploits.

By way of comparison, there has _never_ once been a webkit (duh) exploit in
Android but more importantly, never a Pegasus kernel exploit in Android.

These Pegasus kernel exploits only happen with iOS, Arno.
Look that up before you spouting bullshit about iOS security over Android.

Neither device is secure - but the number of zero-day holes for iOS is many
times that of Android and iOS has ten times the number of exploited holes.

>> My point was only that there is no comparable iPhone to Android _if_ you
>> want do use the phone for more than just bare-minimum basic functionality.
>
> So what? I don't care if iPhones are comparable with anything at all.

Jeezus. The point is not whether you "care" about iOS being crippled.

Many people are born crippled, Arno - and it doesn't matter that you don't
care that they're born crippled - because - they're still crippled. Right?

The simple point is that iOS is born crippled.
The point is NOT whether or not you care that iOS is born crippled.

Think about that please.
I'm not trying to make you care about the facts.

I'm trying to make you understand the facts.

If you don't understand how crippled iOS is, then you can't understand any
basic comparison statement between any Android phone and any iOS iPhone.

> I
> use one as an employee and I don't care if the iPhone is comparable to
> my Android device.

Again, it's not whether you care that people are crippled.
It's the fact that people are crippled that matters.

You can't have a "race" for example, between a crippled person and a person
who isn't crippled, right? It's just not possible to compare the results.

Same with Android versus iOS.
There is no comparative iPhone to Android because iOS is born crippled.

> At least the apps on the iPhone, which I got
> installed, provide more than just "bare-minimum basic functionality".

I am always sensible & reasonable Arno, but I refuse to ignore facts.

I will openly agree with you that if all you with an iPhone is talk, text,
watch videos and play games - then the iPhone is a perfectly good system.

But if you want to do more than the bare minimum basics, then you will
never be able to compare even the most expensive iPhone to the cheapest
Android out there - simply because it's a fact that iOS is born crippled.

You can't simply change that fact by not caring about it any more than you
can change the fact someone was born crippled by not caring about them.

There is no comparison possible between any iPhone and any Android phone
unless you first, & foremost, agree to ignore that the iPhone is crippled.

Once you ignore the iPhone is crippled _then_ you can compare platforms.

> For example I can access company files like Word, Excel etc.. and I can
> do video calls and can transfer a running video call to my laptop
> without interrupting it and vice versa. Very comfortable when I am in a
> hurry to leave the office but I don't want to take my laptop with me.

As I openly said many times, Arno, I'm never going to dispute a basic fact.
Only fools do that (that's why they're fools).

If all you do on an iPhone is absolute basics, then it works fine for you.

> Of course if you define the use of Tor browser as a requirement for
> "advanced functionality" then yes, the iPhone is just a basic smartphone.

Arno - please do not play the game the ignorant iKooks do by saying:
"nobody wants that" & "nobody needs that".
*simply because only iOS can't do it*

For you to claim nobody wants any privacy on an iPhone is patently absurd.
It's your way of coping with reality.

Just like someone who says nobody needs legs so a crippled person can do
whatever a non-crippled person can do. It's your way of coping with facts.

Why not just accept the facts, Arno?
Why must you claim nobody wants privacy on an iPhone, Arno?

On 2023-11-08 15:49, Wally J wrote:
> Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote
>
>>> I just now created this screenshot so that I can learn from you, especially
>>> since you speak of the issue of managing the platforms for work & for play.
>>> <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles
>>
>> This is not what I am talking about.
>
> Good.
> My point is that you can't compare iOS to Android because iOS is crippled.
>
> Remember, I am not like most people in that I discuss facts.
> I make rational and sensible assessments of those facts.
>
> Rest assured, I am very well aware that every common consumer operating
> system _except iOS_ has the basic ability to set it up for multiple users.
>
> It's only iOS that's crippled by complete lack of multi-user capability.
>
>> Apple offers a centralized management for all comapny devices *without*
>> *any* interaction needed on the device itself.
>> No "work" profile and more important: no "private" profile where employess
>> can do whatever they want.
>
> Exactly my point.
> There is no comparative iPhone to Android because iOS is born crippled.
>
>> On the iPhone SE I can do exactly *nothing* except using the
>> apps which are installed by the company.
>
> Exactly my point. What's different about iOS is that it is born crippled.
>

No, Arlen, no.

This is needed feature for an enterprise phone, and you saying that it
is crippled is ridiculous. Instead, you have to find some Android
supplier that allows doing the exact same thing.

This is an undeniable bonus point for iphones.

Windows, for instance, also offer similar features.

The only thing you can do to counteract the argument is find how to do
the same thing on Android. What company can I buy from, a box of Android
phones with a centralized computer to rule them all, in a manner that no
user can do any customization or change if not expliticly allowed by the
central controller.

Otherwise, be a gentleman and concede the point.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

badgolferman <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote

> iPhones don't have multiple user profiles like Androids do.

Hi badgolferman,
Don't worry. I know full well that iOS is crippled. It was rhetorical.

> Also MDM
> is a completely different thing than multiple user profiles. I can't tell
> you all the details because I don't know, but my work phone has MDM
> installed.

As always, I can learn from others and I am never afraid to admit when I
don't know something. I have no idea what MDM is at the moment.

> MDM gives the IT Department the ability to remotely manage your phone
> without any user interaction. If necessary they can wipe your phone clean
> if you report it lost. MDM provides special certificates and automatic VPN
> profiles which makes a phone become part of the approved network to the
> point where you can open encrypted emails and access confidential servers.
> There are many more things MDM can do which I can't speak of intelligently.

While I can see how that's useful, I think Android profiles do the same
thing but I must admit I haven't been in the corporate world since I
retired so I'd have to look up how they do it.

However...

Android is so much more powerful than the crippled iOS that I can't imagine
it not being possible - as we have to keep in mind what iOS is and isn't.

Apple restricts what iOS can do.
Google can't restrict what Android can do.

Given that assessment of fact, I would assume there's nothing a company can
do with MDM that can't be done on Android - but let's see what others
think.

> I'm sure Android can do some of these things too but iPhone was approved
> for restricted access long before Android was.

I would think, given the iPhone is half the US market, all companies have
to learn how to deal with them - just as we learned how to deal with Linux
living alongside of macOS and Android when I was doing IT stuff long ago.

> I first had the BlackBerry
> Storm but that was a piece of crap.

I had a corporate Blackberry also. The clit finally failed. Then I had an
iPhone that I had to jailbreak to get it to work with T-Mobile. And then I
found Android. But I still have, as you know, my daily drive iPad even
today. That's how I know what happens if you stop logging into the Apple
mothership tracking servers. I tried it.

What I love about the iPad is that Google Voice does not create a Google
Account on the device when you use it. On Android GV creates an account.

My Android phone has no accounts (no Samsung accounts, no Google accounts).
And it works just fine as I search for and download apps off the Google
Play Store repository without having to create an account - which is
something very useful and very private that is impossible to do with iOS.

Worse, Apple inserts a unique mothership tracking ID into every IPA you
install, while Google does not do that.

It's amazing how little privacy there is on iOS but since Apple
"advertises" they have privacy, people who don't know anything think it's
more private than Android - which is why I chastised Arno when he started
alluding to the fact he doesn't care about privacy when using an iPhone.

He might not care about the privacy inherent in the Tor Browser for
example, but that privacy is available on every platform _except_ on iOS.

> I tried to avoid the iPhones but that
> was my only option if I wanted remote access to email. This is why my first
> iPhone was the 4 model. Android was not available from my employer because
> it couldn't be locked down. I think the option to have an Android phone
> wasn't available until 3-4 years ago and even then we couldn't open
> encrypted emails. I don't know if that has changed since.

Again, I doubt you'll ever find anything that is on the iPhone that isn't
already on Android simply because developers create most content and Apple
severely restricts what developers can do... while Google can't.

It's really that simple the difference between iOS and Android.
But that's why there can never be a comparable iPhone to any Android phone.

> I've been using iPhones since 2009 and have been tempted to switch my
> personal phone to an Android, but am getting too old and lazy to learn
> something new. With all its limitations, I've adapted and the iPhone works
> good enough for me.

My wife and kids and I all use Android and iOS interchangeably.
Just like I use Windows and Linux interchangeably.

It's _why_ I know that there can never be a fair comparison of even the
most expensive iPhone to even the least expensive (free in my case)
Android.

The reason is the iPhone is born crippled in potential app functionality.
Android is not.

Only if we first and foremost agree to ignore that the iPhone is crippled
in app functionality can we then begin to compare an iPhone with Android.

For the camera, other than the lack of the ability to run utilities and the
severely constraining lack of the sd slot, most of what a camera does on an
iPhone can be compared to what a camera does on Android.

But even then, the lack of app functionality will hurt the iPhone.
And the lack of the iPhone hardware (e.g., slots & ports) hurts also.

As always, the iPhone is so severely crippled, even in the camera
functionality, that you have to ignore that it's crippled to even begin to
compare the two devices in output.

And that's my point.
Most people don't understand a word I said above.

I hope you and Arno do.
Because I care about sensible people understanding logical thought
processes.
--
What I care about is learning from others & discussing topics of interest
with others who are capable of comprehending the topics that we discuss.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

>> Exactly my point. What's different about iOS is that it is born crippled.
>>
>
> This is needed feature for an enterprise phone, and you saying that it
> is crippled is ridiculous.

Hi Carlos,

My point of view is a very adult point of view - based on the facts.
Not on marketing bullshit.

The point of this thread is that no comparison is possible between even the
most expensive iPhone and even the least expensive Android phone, simply
because the Android phone can _always_ do more than the iPhone ever can do.

The reason for this is quite simple:
1. Most functionality is added by developers
2. Apple severely restricts what developers can add
3. Google can't

Therefore, the iPhone choices will _always_ be crippled in terms of
hardware and software choices compared to Android - so if you wish to
compare Apple to Android - you first have to agree to ignore than the
iPhone is born crippled.

It's no different than agreeing to ignore that a child is crippled when you
let him play on the elementary school soccer teach in his wheelchair and
then when you compare the "best kicker" on the team, including that child.

Only after you agree to ignore that the iPhone is crippled in hardware &
software, can you even begin to compare it to "equivalent" Android phones.

That's just basic sensible logic, Carlos.
Nothing fancy in my argument.

> Instead, you have to find some Android
> supplier that allows doing the exact same thing.

I have given this challenge many times on the Apple newsgroups, Carlos.
In fact, it's in the closing statement to the exact post you replied to:

*If you disagree, why not tell me something really powerful & useful*
*that you do on your iPhone that I can't possibly do on any Android*

> This is an undeniable bonus point for iphones.
> Windows, for instance, also offer similar features.

Instead of claiming that _because the iPhone is crippled_ it can do less
than Android (and that is your bonus?) why not answer the question above?

> The only thing you can do to counteract the argument is find how to do
> the same thing on Android.

People love the iPhone so much that their best argument is that it does
nothing - and that - in and of itself - is what they say it does best?

> What company can I buy from, a box of Android
> phones with a centralized computer to rule them all, in a manner that no
> user can do any customization or change if not expliticly allowed by the
> central controller.

As I explained to badgolferman, I have been retired for 15 years, so I'm
out of the corporate world - but he's in the corporate world - so you might
want to ask badgolfermand and Arno what _their_ company does with Androids.

Or are you claiming that companies don't let their employees use Android
phones simply because Android phones do far more than iPhones can ever do?
> Otherwise, be a gentleman and concede the point.

You have merely alluded to a point, which is that because you can't do
anything useful on an iPhone, you feel that the crippled iPhone is, in and
of itself, a "bonus" for corporations who don't want you doing anything.

If so, I will agree to your stated point quite easily as it's less effort
on the corporate part to cripple a phone that was already born crippled.

It's like you saying that it's less effort for an enemy to cripple your
soldiers attacking them if they're already crippled soldiers from birth.

But if you're only claim to fame for the iPhone is it can't do anything
useful - then that supports my fundamental statement that there is no
possible comparison between any iPhone and any Android until and unless you
first always agree to completely ignore the iPhone is crippled at birth.
--
People love the iPhone so much that their best argument is that it does
nothing - and that - in and of itself - is what they say it does best.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> No, Arlen, no.
>
> This is needed feature for an enterprise phone, and you saying that it
> is crippled is ridiculous. Instead, you have to find some Android
> supplier that allows doing the exact same thing.
>
> This is an undeniable bonus point for iphones.
>
> Windows, for instance, also offer similar features.
>
> The only thing you can do to counteract the argument is find how to do
> the same thing on Android. What company can I buy from, a box of Android
> phones with a centralized computer to rule them all, in a manner that no
> user can do any customization or change if not expliticly allowed by the
> central controller.
>
> Otherwise, be a gentleman and concede the point.

Indeed, AFAIK there's no such management platform for Android and
admins have to fight to get some control over employee's phones and they
and the employees have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get it
somewhat workable.

Some time ago, there was an experienced admin in the Dutch (nl.*)
groups and he could not believe all the brick walls he kept running
into. When he encountered yet another problem, the only thing we could
do is nod and confirm that it indeed was as bad as it was.

On 2023-11-08 16:39, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
>>> Exactly my point. What's different about iOS is that it is born crippled.
>>>
>>
>> This is needed feature for an enterprise phone, and you saying that it
>> is crippled is ridiculous.
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> My point of view is a very adult point of view - based on the facts.
> Not on marketing bullshit.

WOOSH!

You are being the kid this time. Just be a gentleman and concede the point.

.... (ignoring the rest of the bla bla blah)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Wally J, 2023-11-08 15:49:

> Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote
[...]
>> Apple offers a centralized management for all comapny devices *without*
>> *any* interaction needed on the device itself.
>> No "work" profile and more important: no "private" profile where employess
>> can do whatever they want.
>
> Exactly my point.
> There is no comparative iPhone to Android because iOS is born crippled.

No - that is what company *want*! And even if you don't like that - the
companies which use iPhones don't care.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Wally J, 2023-11-08 16:05:

[...]
> As always, the iPhone is so severely crippled, even in the camera
> functionality, that you have to ignore that it's crippled to even begin to
> compare the two devices in output.
>
> And that's my point.
> Most people don't understand a word I said above.

Yes, because it is completely gibberish and no facts.

> I hope you and Arno do.

No.

> Because I care about sensible people understanding logical thought
> processes.

This has nothing to do with "logical thought", it's just a personal
flamewar against iPhones.

JFTR: I only use Android as my private device and would never buy an
iPhone myself for certain reasons. But your crusade against iPhones is
something I can not take serious.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

Wolf Greenblatt, 2023-11-08 02:28:

> On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 16:50:52 -0400, Wally J wrote:
>
>>>> My main point is the iPhone is a toy that can't possibly compare to a real
>>>> phone, just as a Barbie doll is a toy which can't possibly compare to a
>>>> real person - despite Apple's desperate marketing claims to the contrary.
>>>
>>> So what? If people like it this way - why not? I don't care.
>>
>> Hi Arno,
>>
>> I just now created this screenshot so that I can learn from you, especially
>> since you speak of the issue of managing the platforms for work & for play.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/4NSK8690/profiles01.jpg> Personal/Work profiles
>
> The iPhone can't do any of that multiuser stuff & persona/work profiles.
> That's why security based corporations ban the use of iPhones as insecure.

Which corporations do so? Can you name some?

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> Just be a gentleman and concede the point.

I did concede as a perfect gentleman, Carlos.
Perhaps you missed it?

I proved the iPhone is crippled and if _that_ is what corporations like
most about the iPhone, then being crippled in functionality is certainly a
"feature" that is in the iPhone nature, but which isn't part of Android.

Not being able to do anything is a strange feature to be bragging about,
but in the corporate world, it's something _they_ (i.e., IT) perhaps love.

Still, Steve is fond of saying that the crippling nature of the iPhone in
terms of what _his company wants_ is a drawback in the GPS space, so it
works both ways.

However, to the point of this thread, that the iPhone is crippled by all
accounts, is indeed why there is no comparison to Android until and unless
you completely ignore that the iPhone can't do what Android can do.

Which you claim is a bonus - and which I would agree just as I would agree
the Germans found it a bonus how well Zyklon B worked on humans in WWII.
--
We finally found something the iPhone could do better than Android does.
And that something... is nothing.