I visit a coffee shop where there is no wi-fi.
I have trouble geting a signal, which might be because of the concrete
walls and ceiling. However other folks seem to have no problem and my
provider assures me there is a strong signal in the area and indeed
outside the building is fine,
Today, out of frustration I removed my G4 Samsung phone from its
protective, clear plastic cover and ... lo and behold ... a signal which
did not go away.
If I check the ikelyhood of this being the solution, the web tells me
that clear plastic cases do not block the signal.
I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is there
such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned off?

--
Jim the Geordie

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 20:02:54 -0000, Jim the Geordie
<jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:

>I visit a coffee shop where there is no wi-fi.
>I have trouble geting a signal, which might be because of the concrete
>walls and ceiling. However other folks seem to have no problem and my
>provider assures me there is a strong signal in the area and indeed
>outside the building is fine,
>Today, out of frustration I removed my G4 Samsung phone from its
>protective, clear plastic cover and ... lo and behold ... a signal which
>did not go away.
>If I check the ikelyhood of this being the solution, the web tells me
>that clear plastic cases do not block the signal.
>I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is there
>such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned off?

Your bag probably has a coating on it. Never trust the web 100% !!!!!

KenW

Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote

> I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is there
> such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned off?

Of course. We've covered this many times. So I have nothing new to suggest.
Check out my very many screenshots showing cellular signal strength graphs.

The drawback for cellular signal strength is it only tells you the signal
strength for the carrier you're using - but you can swap out SIM cards with
your friends to get all three carriers' signal strength on the same phone.

Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:

> I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is there
> such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned off?

No app required. Go into Android settings -> General -> About phone ->
Network. Navpath differs with different brands of phones. There you
will see signal strength.

On 11/9/23 8:58 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is there
>> such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned off?
>
> No app required. Go into Android settings -> General -> About phone ->
> Network. Navpath differs with different brands of phones. There you
> will see signal strength.

Pixel2: ...About phone / SIM Status. -110 dBm 30 asu I should know if
that's good or bad, but I don't.

--
Cheers, Bev
"In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has
had to worry about where the next meal would come from."
-- Peter S. Drucker, who invented management

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is
>>> there such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned
>>> off?
>>
>> No app required. Go into Android settings -> General -> About phone ->
>> Network. Navpath differs with different brands of phones. There you
>> will see signal strength.
>
> Pixel2: ...About phone / SIM Status. -110 dBm 30 asu I should know
> if that's good or bad, but I don't.

The bars on your phone for signal strength are extremely inaccurate.
Plus, there is no standard on how much signal strength each bar
represents.

Besides looking at the phone's signal strength reading (not the bars), I
also use the Network Cell Info app. Besides showing me (the same)
signal strength reading with green, yellow, red, and black bands
indicating good, okay, poor, and crap strength levels along with the
actual reading value, it shows my wifi signal strength, too which is
currently about -35 dBm which is excellent.

That is to my home cable modem with wifi on 5 GHz (for faster bandwidth
but shorter distance) although my phone could also use 2.4 GHz (for
greater distance but slower bandwidth). I almost exclusively use wifi
while at home to use Google Voice for my phone service. I don't publish
my cell phone number, just my Google Voice number, and all calls to GV
get forwarded to all my phones via wifi/Internet or cellular or telco
(POTS). Even when away from home and off wifi to use cellular, GV is my
main phone number (incoming and outgoing calls use cellular data). A
few times I've had to use cellular voice on outgoing calls when GV could
not sucessfully connect to the other end.

The app also shows a map of nearby cell towers (that contract for
service from your cellular providers). This can show you to which tower
you are connected, and which others are nearby. The app shows a lot
more info, but you'll have to research what all that data means.

https://www.signalboosters.com/blog/how-to-check-your-cell-phone-signal-strength/
Section: What Do I Do with My Signal Strength dBm Reading?

https://www.weboost.com/blog/how-to-test-signal-strength-on-your-phone
Section: What is a good signal strength for a cell phone?

In my basement for cellular signal, my phone gets -111 dBm which is a
very poor signal. Elsewhere around home, I get -100 to -105 dBM.
Despite what the carriers claim in their coverage maps, I'm in a low
level area alongside a major river and in a forested area. The cell
towers on my side are attenuated by trees and buildings. The cell
towers on the other side of the river are elevated on cliffs (towers
have poor downward coverage). When I get out of my residential area,
signal goes closer to 90 dBm, but that fluctuates. Coverage is poor
inside buildings away from windows, and in car park ramps due to all the
concrete, and the same for GPS. That's why I rely on wifi/Internet via
cellular data for GV phone service at home along with voice service from
my ISP (Comcast Voice) which uses a separate channel from those for
Internet access (so it really isn't VOIP). My GV is VOIP at home: GV
via Internet to Obitalk converted to POTS twisted pair in my home to
corded/cordless phones.

Some folks will use femtocells at home. This converts cellular signals
to digital traffic over Internet directed to a specific provider. Some
major carriers offer femtocells for free, or for lease, because they
want to keep you as a customer instead of you switching to another
carrier that a nearer cell tower contracts for different service. Cell
towers are not owned by cellular providers. They contract with the
tower to offer their service from there. Several, but not all, carriers
contract at the same tower. You can also try a cellular signal booster
aka repeater, but you'll also be helping your neighbors with their poor
signal strength. The problem there is you need a tower or pole to get
higher than the surrounding trees and buildings to capture a stronger
signal. Boosting a weak signal doesn't work well, like using a cup
instead of pressing your ear against a wall to snoop on a conversation.

Since I have both GV (VOIP) and land-line (ISP voice) service at home, I
don't need a tower+booster or femtocell. If I didn't have GV, I might
consider a femtocell if my cellular provider provided one for free.
However, my cellular provider is an MVNO (Tracfone), so no such perk
from them. I'd have to go with a more expensive major carrier to get a
femtocell that works with their service. With GV, I use an Obitalk to
convert from VOIP to POTS inside my home. If GV ever stops working with
Obitalk (their home products entered EOL back on Dec 2021, and they're
going forward with just their commercial products), I'll have to switch
to Ooma. Both work with other VOIP operators than just GV, but GV is
still free in USA. With both, you have to buy their VOIP converter, but
thereafter there are free and paid service tiers. At the time I looked
at Obi and Ooma, the converter box at Obi was half the price of Ooma
(and now Ooma is about half price, $56, at Amazon). Been using
GV+Obitalk for about 9 years. If Obitalk stops working, it'll be due to
some change at GV.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

>>> I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is there
>>> such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned off?
>>
>> No app required. Go into Android settings -> General -> About phone ->
>> Network. Navpath differs with different brands of phones. There you
>> will see signal strength.
>
> Pixel2: ...About phone / SIM Status. -110 dBm 30 asu I should know if
> that's good or bad, but I don't.

Hi The Real Bev,

I did some work for you and documented this to help you out on comparisons.

Android 13 > Settings > About phone > Status information > SIM card status
The inflection point for cellular signal is somewhere around -105dBm.

It was more work for me but I made this for you "The Real Bev" so that you
can compare your signal with mine (I live in the boonies, by the way).
<https://i.postimg.cc/50SwH9Cq/strength01.jpg> Cellular -74 dBm 66 ASU

I took that while the phone was connected by USB to the PC so it's real
world for me in my office inside the house (outside would be better).

It was pretty stable at -74dBM but it fluctuated a bit at startup times:
<https://i.postimg.cc/nVT4pzZn/strength02.jpg> Signal Strength Varies

To get an idea of how the decibels work, they're compared to a standard.
Since it's a negative number for the decibels you have to think in reverse.

Each positive change (i.e., -74dBm going to -71dbM) is a doubling of power.
Each negative change (i.e., -74dBm going to -77dbM) is a halving of power.

Generally around -110 dBm or more negative is just starting to get crappy,
where anything more positive than about 100 dBm is a pretty good signal.

Bear in mind that for Wi-Fi, that inflection point moves to around -50 dBM
or thereabouts (i.e., -40 dBm is about ten times more signal than -50dBM).
--
The whole point of Usenet is to help people and in turn they will help you.

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote

> The bars on your phone for signal strength are extremely inaccurate.
> Plus, there is no standard on how much signal strength each bar
> represents.

I love that people like Vanguard try to help others like The Real Bev.

Vanguard is correct that for cellular and Wi-Fi signal strength, what
people use that is "reasonably accurate are the decibels (aka "dBm").

To help others, here's an example of my Wi-Fi signal strength in decibels.
<https://i.postimg.cc/4xgmTTgm/wifi01.jpg> graphical radio debuggers

> Besides looking at the phone's signal strength reading (not the bars), I
> also use the Network Cell Info app.

I used to use Cellular-Z but they started adding ads so I dropped them.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Hn05bQwG/wifi02.jpg> Cellular-Z by Jersey Ho

I only use free, ad free & gsf free Android tools if/when they exist.

> Besides showing me (the same)
> signal strength reading with green, yellow, red, and black bands
> indicating good, okay, poor, and crap strength levels along with the
> actual reading value, it shows my wifi signal strength, too which is
> currently about -35 dBm which is excellent.

Vanguard is correct it's easy and more useful to get a wavy graph of the
Wi-Fi or cellular signal strength reported by many apps on the play store.
<https://i.postimg.cc/fLC4zcm6/wifi04.jpg> Many signal strength apps

> That is to my home cable modem with wifi on 5 GHz (for faster bandwidth
> but shorter distance) although my phone could also use 2.4 GHz (for
> greater distance but slower bandwidth).

To add a value to that factual assessment by Vanguard there is also the
implication of "noise" (& SNR) which is usually better for 5GHz channels.

> I almost exclusively use wifi
> while at home to use Google Voice for my phone service. I don't publish
> my cell phone number, just my Google Voice number, and all calls to GV
> get forwarded to all my phones via wifi/Internet or cellular or telco
> (POTS). Even when away from home and off wifi to use cellular, GV is my
> main phone number (incoming and outgoing calls use cellular data). A
> few times I've had to use cellular voice on outgoing calls when GV could
> not sucessfully connect to the other end.

To add value to that assessment by Vanguard, I also use Google Voice as my
main public number also, but I never log into Google Voice on Android
(because GV _creates_ a login account on Android but not when on iOS).

> The app also shows a map of nearby cell towers (that contract for
> service from your cellular providers). This can show you to which tower
> you are connected, and which others are nearby. The app shows a lot
> more info, but you'll have to research what all that data means.

Here's more information about the kinds of cell tower maps you can get.
<https://i.postimg.cc/CKFhMZtS/signal03.jpg> celltower realtime location

> https://www.signalboosters.com/blog/how-to-check-your-cell-phone-signal-strength/
> Section: What Do I Do with My Signal Strength dBm Reading?
>
> https://www.weboost.com/blog/how-to-test-signal-strength-on-your-phone
> Section: What is a good signal strength for a cell phone?
>
> In my basement for cellular signal, my phone gets -111 dBm which is a
> very poor signal. Elsewhere around home, I get -100 to -105 dBM.

Again, Vanguard is correct in his assessment of the signal strength value.

There's no magic number (as it depends on Signal to Noise also), but in
general, anything more negative than around -100dBM is approaching bad.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gtywwn8f/signal01.jpg> cell signal strength graph

> Despite what the carriers claim in their coverage maps, I'm in a low
> level area alongside a major river and in a forested area. The cell
> towers on my side are attenuated by trees and buildings. The cell
> towers on the other side of the river are elevated on cliffs (towers
> have poor downward coverage). When I get out of my residential area,
> signal goes closer to 90 dBm, but that fluctuates. Coverage is poor
> inside buildings away from windows, and in car park ramps due to all the
> concrete, and the same for GPS. That's why I rely on wifi/Internet via
> cellular data for GV phone service at home along with voice service from
> my ISP (Comcast Voice) which uses a separate channel from those for
> Internet access (so it really isn't VOIP). My GV is VOIP at home: GV
> via Internet to Obitalk converted to POTS twisted pair in my home to
> corded/cordless phones.

Everything Vanguard said above is factually correct, where I too find that
the Google Voice works better than my phone for phone calls even as my
phone might be using the router at any given time to make those calls.

Like Vanguard, I would agree that -90dBM is a fantastic value for cellular
signal strength, where here are some real-world graphs of mine at home.
<https://i.postimg.cc/xCbVQ2pj/signal02.jpg> cell signal strength graph

> Some folks will use femtocells at home.

I have both a femtocell and a cellular repeater inside my home because I
argued successfully that Internet outages (femtocell) affect me differently
than our frequent power outages (cellular repeater), but I live in the
Santa Cruz mountains where we don't have cable on our power line poles.
<https://i.postimg.cc/QCNqss9T/femto-ooma-switch.jpg> My ooma & femtocell

The cellular repeater picks up cellular signal from dozens of miles away,
while the femtocell creates its own cellular signal inside my home.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YqTk0q1T/ap.jpg> Cellular repeater & home Wi-Fi APs

> This converts cellular signals
> to digital traffic over Internet directed to a specific provider.

As an added-value bonus point, I asked T-Mobile if the femtocell can be
used by anyone and they said yes - anyone near your house will use your
femtocell as the nearest tower (if they're close enough that is).

So, in a way, you're giving free bandwidth to the cellular carrier as it
goes over your Internet lines (where my Internet is WISP, not ISP).

> Some
> major carriers offer femtocells for free, or for lease, because they
> want to keep you as a customer instead of you switching to another
> carrier that a nearer cell tower contracts for different service.

It used to be all the major carriers offered one or more of three:
1. T-Mobile would give you a free Wi-Fi router (long ago), or,
2. T-Mobile would give you a free cellular repeater (less long ago), or
3. T-Mobile would give you a free femtocell (also called a microcell).

I have all three, although only the latter two are from T-Mobile.

> Cell towers are not owned by cellular providers.

Up here, there are companies that rent the land under the tower from the
people who own that land - which is a nice way to make money on the side.

> They contract with the
> tower to offer their service from there. Several, but not all, carriers
> contract at the same tower. You can also try a cellular signal booster
> aka repeater, but you'll also be helping your neighbors with their poor
> signal strength.

While I agreed with every factual assessment Vanguard said so far, the only
thing I'd correct is both the femtocell & cellular repeater should "help
your neighbors" as far as I can figure out. They're both small cellular
towers, as far as I can tell. If your neighbor is close enough, both the
cellular repeater and the femto/micro cell would allow them to connect.

> The problem there is you need a tower or pole to get
> higher than the surrounding trees and buildings to capture a stronger
> signal. Boosting a weak signal doesn't work well, like using a cup
> instead of pressing your ear against a wall to snoop on a conversation.

What T-Mobile told me to do with the cellular repeater is put the first box
as high as I could in an upstairs window - and then put the second box as
close to the center of the house as possible.

That way the first box captures the signal from dozens of miles away, while
it only has to send that signal to the amplifier elsewhere in the house.

> Since I have both GV (VOIP) and land-line (ISP voice) service at home, I
> don't need a tower+booster or femtocell. If I didn't have GV, I might
> consider a femtocell if my cellular provider provided one for free.

I have personally helped my neighbors get the femtocell for free in the
past, where the arguments have to be more insistent as the carriers try to
earn some money while my argument is the people are already paying for
service they're not getting - which they usually relent & give it for free.

> However, my cellular provider is an MVNO (Tracfone), so no such perk
> from them. I'd have to go with a more expensive major carrier to get a
> femtocell that works with their service.

I've never used an MVNO. I've had Verizon and then AT&T and then T-Mobile
but none others for my cellular service. All are about the same in service.

On 11/10/23 10:37 AM, Wally J wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>> I have an app which tells me the strength of my wi-fi signal, is there
>>>> such an app to test the mobile data signal with wi-fi turned off?
>>>
>>> No app required. Go into Android settings -> General -> About phone ->
>>> Network. Navpath differs with different brands of phones. There you
>>> will see signal strength.
>>
>> Pixel2: ...About phone / SIM Status. -110 dBm 30 asu I should know if
>> that's good or bad, but I don't.

Rule: smaller is better. Good enough.

> Hi The Real Bev,
>
> I did some work for you and documented this to help you out on comparisons.

Much appreciated. I googled and found this:
https://www.wilsonamplifiers.com/blog/how-to-read-cell-phone-signal-strength-the-right-way/

I also looked at some signal strength maps. Carrier is AT&T, which
seems to think that I have super strength in front of my house.
T-Mobile was at least honest about the dead spot that is my house.

By any method of evaluation, my house gets piss-poor reception.
Fortunately I don't need to care since it only matters when I'm out and
can't connect to free wifi.

> Android 13 > Settings > About phone > Status information > SIM card status
> The inflection point for cellular signal is somewhere around -105dBm.
>
> It was more work for me but I made this for you "The Real Bev" so that you
> can compare your signal with mine (I live in the boonies, by the way).
> <https://i.postimg.cc/50SwH9Cq/strength01.jpg> Cellular -74 dBm 66 ASU
>
> I took that while the phone was connected by USB to the PC so it's real
> world for me in my office inside the house (outside would be better).
>
> It was pretty stable at -74dBM but it fluctuated a bit at startup times:
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nVT4pzZn/strength02.jpg> Signal Strength Varies
>
> To get an idea of how the decibels work, they're compared to a standard.
> Since it's a negative number for the decibels you have to think in reverse.
>
> Each positive change (i.e., -74dBm going to -71dbM) is a doubling of power.
> Each negative change (i.e., -74dBm going to -77dbM) is a halving of power.
>
> Generally around -110 dBm or more negative is just starting to get crappy,
> where anything more positive than about 100 dBm is a pretty good signal.
>
> Bear in mind that for Wi-Fi, that inflection point moves to around -50 dBM
> or thereabouts (i.e., -40 dBm is about ten times more signal than -50dBM).
>

--
Cheers, Bev
"Sure, everyone's in favor of saving Hitler's brain, but when
you put it into the body of a great white shark, suddenly
you're a madman." --Futurama