On 11/11/2023 9:53 AM, John Dallman wrote:
> (AJL) wrote:

>> The wife's iPhone battery swelled up like a balloon causing the
>> case to pop open some years back and it wasn't a cheap phone...

> Did she carry it on her person a lot of the time? That will increase
> the average temperature, and that's definitely related to
> degradation rates. The devices in my experiments have never been used
> as personal devices, so I tend to forget about that factor.

She always carried it in her purse and it was a cool day. Funny thing
was that the phone still worked even with the battery expanded. I kept
it on a cookie sheet for 3 days (fire prevention insurance) until the
new battery came (from Amazon of course). It was a $30US kit that
included tools. After replacement the phone worked another year until
given to a grandkid and as long as he had it it never had another
battery problem.

> It could also be a plain manufacturing defect. Everyone gets those
> occasionally, and eliminating them /completely/ in batteries, which
> inevitably degrade with use, isn't possible.

Yup. That was the only battery problem I've ever had over the years with
any of my stuff from cheap to expensive, various brands, various OSs...

Well, that's not quite true. I was putting a laptop back together and
put a long screw where a short screw was supposed to go and punctured
the battery. I still remember the flame shooting out. Scary. I was able
to carry it outside and throw it on the rocks (rock yard - we try to
conserve water here in the desert). But I guess I can't blame that one
on the battery now can I...

On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 09:07:54 +0100, J�rg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:

>I doubt that there are factory new PBs that use this very old
>technology. Energy density and durabilty are inferior.
>
>What is the reason for this?

Safety.

--
croy

On 2023-11-11 18:13, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), AJL wrote:
>> Closer to home for me. My daughter had a charging scooter battery catch fire
>> in her garage while she and family were asleep. Fortunately a smoke alarm
>> woke them. The fire department was able to contain the fire mostly to the
>> garage though it did burn through one inside wall. The repairs to the house
>> cost thousands but it could have been much worse...
>
> Wow -- glad it wasn't worse! I asked my bike shop before I bought it,
> and they said the riskiest time for fire is while it's charging, or
> while stored in high heat. I wonder about that fire Carlos reported
> in the Madrid Metro -- is it super hot in those trains?

No. Outside temps are below 20°C, reaching 8 at night. I don't remember
the Metro as having heating. Cooling, yes, some of them, IIRC.

So the temps inside are expected to be "comfy", people are wearing coats.

>
> My ebike lives in my attached-but-uninsulated garage, but when I'm
> not actually riding I remove the battery and bring it into the house
> so it's not exposed to 100° heat. I charge it in the house, and check
> the indicator periodically so that I can take it off charger
> promptly.
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-11 18:14, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 17:47:29 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> Now that I remember, at least one of my cameras recommends that when
>> storing the batteries for long time unused, do so uncharged.
>>
>> Of course, this is a problem if you keep the camera in a cupboard and
>> expect to be able to use instantly if the occasion arises.
>
> I've read that laptops should be stored with 50% to 80% charge, and I
> just assumed it would be the same for cameras. Luckily my only
> cameras are part of phones or laptops!
>

My current laptop is configured to limit charge to 70..80, so that I
keep it constantly plugged to the mains. It is not a recommendation for
long term storage, just for constant charging.

Cameras, on the other hand, are used disconnected, so the goal is to
charge it completely, then stop. Have it ready for use instantly. A
profesional will have several fully charged batteries and exchange them
during the day.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-11 18:53, AJL wrote:
> On 11/11/2023 10:14 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
>
>> I've read that laptops should be stored with 50% to 80% charge, and I
>> just assumed it would be the same for cameras. Luckily my only
>> cameras are part of phones or laptops.
>
> My phone (Galaxy S10+) can be set to only charge to 85%. But I prefer a
> full charge to start the day with (I'm an overnight charger) because you
> never know when you'll need it. So far at 4+ years I've not NOTICED any
> battery problems (crosses fingers)...

My current phone when charging overnight limits charge to around 80%,
but goes to 100% at the time the alarm bell rings. I can't have it not
fully charge on automatics.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-11 18:53, AJL wrote:
> On 11/11/2023 9:53 AM, John Dallman wrote:
>> (AJL) wrote:
>
>>> The wife's iPhone battery swelled up like a balloon causing the
>>> case to pop open some years back and it wasn't a cheap phone...
>
>> Did she carry it on her person a lot of the time? That will increase
>> the average temperature, and that's definitely related to
>> degradation rates. The devices in my experiments have never been used
>> as personal devices, so I tend to forget about that factor.
>
> She always carried it in her purse and it was a cool day. Funny thing
> was that the phone still worked even with the battery expanded. I kept
> it on a cookie sheet for 3 days (fire prevention insurance) until the
> new battery came (from Amazon of course). It was a $30US kit that
> included tools. After replacement the phone worked another year until
> given to a grandkid and as long as he had it it never had another
> battery problem.
>
>> It could also be a plain manufacturing defect. Everyone gets those
>> occasionally, and eliminating them /completely/ in batteries, which
>> inevitably degrade with use, isn't possible.
>
> Yup. That was the only battery problem I've ever had over the years with
> any of my stuff from cheap to expensive, various brands, various OSs...
>
> Well, that's not quite true. I was putting a laptop back together and
> put a long screw where a short screw was supposed to go and punctured
> the battery. I still remember the flame shooting out. Scary. I was able
> to carry it outside and throw it on the rocks (rock yard - we try to
> conserve water here in the desert). But I guess I can't blame that one
> on the battery now can I...

Were you lucky enough to separate the battery from the laptop in time,
or were both destroyed? I guess not...

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/11/2023 12:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-11 18:53, AJL wrote:

>> I was putting a laptop back together and put a long screw where a
>> short screw was supposed to go and punctured the battery. I still
>> remember the flame shooting out. Scary. I was able to carry it
>> outside and throw it on the rocks (rock yard - we try to conserve
>> water here in the desert).

> Were you lucky enough to separate the battery from the laptop in
> time, or were both destroyed? I guess not...

They were both destroyed. However I still considered myself lucky to be
able get it out of the house without injury to me or causing a larger
fire...

T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/11/23 03:33, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 11/11/2023 11:18, Theo wrote:
>>> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 11/11/23 02:26, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> On 11.11.23 10:29, T wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/11/23 00:07, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11.11.23 04:23, T wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any of you guys know of a portable charger power bank
>>>>>>>> that uses nickel metal hydride rather than a lithium
>>>>>>>> battery?
>>
>>> I very much doubt you'll find powerbanks with NiMH.  Best case is to
>>> find a
>>> portable phone charger that takes AA batteries, and carry your own NiMH
>>> batteries and charger.
>>
>> There are a few, mainly by GP. As far as I could tell, though, none
>> seemed to have a USB-C connection. Mini and perhaps micro-USB, but not
>> USB-C.
>> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/GP-Batteries-ReCyko-2600mAH-134DX411270AAHCEC4/dp/B07FN5JSDD>
>>
>
> and only about 1/10 the capacity of a lithium polymer
> power bank

That's why they're obsolete.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> Now that I remember, at least one of my cameras recommends that when
> storing the batteries for long time unused, do so uncharged.

Strange recommendation! AFAIK, that advice is wrong for *any* type of
battery and surely for a lithium battery, which a camera battery
probably is.

> Of course, this is a problem if you keep the camera in a cupboard and
> expect to be able to use instantly if the occasion arises.

Just charge it fully, but don't keep it in the charger when the
charging is finished. Sitting at 100% for a long time decreases the life
of lithium batteries. ~80% would be better, but most camera chargers
probably do not have such a maximum percentage setting/limit.

FWIW, I top up the batteries of our cameras (Nikon (small DSLR) and
Canon (zoom)) every three months and every time they take some time to
stop charging, so I assume they have lost some of their charge.

BTW, if this post ends unexpectedly, it's because this laptop has
caught fire and I have thrown it out of the wind

On 2023-11-11 20:50, AJL wrote:
> On 11/11/2023 12:38 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-11 18:53, AJL wrote:
>
>>> I was putting a laptop back together and put a long screw where a
>>> short screw was supposed to go and punctured the battery. I still
>>> remember the flame shooting out. Scary. I was able to carry it
>>> outside and throw it on the rocks (rock yard - we try to conserve
>>> water here in the desert).
>
>> Were you lucky enough to separate the battery from the laptop in
>> time, or were both destroyed? I guess not...
>
> They were both destroyed. However I still considered myself lucky to be
> able get it out of the house without injury to me or causing a larger
> fire...

True.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-11 21:37, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>> Now that I remember, at least one of my cameras recommends that when
>> storing the batteries for long time unused, do so uncharged.
>
> Strange recommendation! AFAIK, that advice is wrong for *any* type of
> battery and surely for a lithium battery, which a camera battery
> probably is.

I have seen that recommendation from several sources.

This particular camera came with the battery fully discharged on purpose
and instructions to charge it before first use. It came with no charger,
instead put the battery on the phone and connect it via micro usb (no
usb-c, damn it). I bought a spare battery, I have to do the same thing
and it takes time. Non brand batteries do not display charge level, some
proprietary chip must be missing. And they charge a lot for their brand
spare hardware. Lumix DC-FZ10002

>
>> Of course, this is a problem if you keep the camera in a cupboard and
>> expect to be able to use instantly if the occasion arises.
>
> Just charge it fully, but don't keep it in the charger when the
> charging is finished. Sitting at 100% for a long time decreases the life
> of lithium batteries. ~80% would be better, but most camera chargers
> probably do not have such a maximum percentage setting/limit.
>
> FWIW, I top up the batteries of our cameras (Nikon (small DSLR) and
> Canon (zoom)) every three months and every time they take some time to
> stop charging, so I assume they have lost some of their charge.
>
> BTW, if this post ends unexpectedly, it's because this laptop has
> caught fire and I have thrown it out of the wind

It fits! :-D

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 13:11:28 +0100, "Carlos E.
R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2023-11-11 11:26, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> On 11.11.23 10:29, T wrote:
>>> On 11/11/23 00:07, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>> On 11.11.23 04:23, T wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Any of you guys know of a portable charger power bank
>>>>> that uses nickel metal hydride rather than a lithium
>>>>> battery?
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that there are factory new PBs that use this very old
>>>> technology. Energy density and durabilty are inferior.
>>>>
>>>> What is the reason for this?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Much harder to catch fire
>>
>> If correctly used this is and never was an issue. The probability is not
>> much idfferent from zero.
>
>After two fires, city transport in Madrid has prohibited portable
>electric vehicles inside buses and Metro (underground railway). This
>breaks greatly the advantage of those vehicles, but it is true that
>there have been recent fires, the one on the Metro stopping service
>totally in one of the lines for hours.
>
>The airline in which I flew this summer prohibits all kind of batteries
>in the baggage that goes into the cargo hold. Even standard AA batteries
>or button cell (watch) batteries.

Do button or 9v batteries ever leak?

I recently uncovered my studfinder with an Engergizer Max, that I hadn't
seen for 3-1/2 years and it was still good.

On 11/11/2023 6:16 PM, micky wrote:

> Do button or 9v batteries ever leak?

They both can leak. The 9Vs have a secondary case so it is seldom seen.
I've never seen one leak though. I got that info from you know who
(starts with a "G").

> I recently uncovered my studfinder with an Engergizer Max, that I
> hadn't seen for 3-1/2 years and it was still good.

I use a 9V battery in my yard irrigation timer. It is used to back up
the timer settings in case of an AC power failure. It sits outside in
our sometimes 115+ F temperatures. I change it once a year on general
principles. So far in the last 23 battery changes (at this house) the
old battery still tested full...

On 11/11/23 09:53, AJL wrote:
> I was putting a laptop back together and
> put a long screw where a short screw was supposed to go and punctured
> the battery. I still remember the flame shooting out. Scary. I was able
> to carry it outside and throw it on the rocks (rock yard - we try to
> conserve water here in the desert). But I guess I can't blame that one
> on the battery now can I...

Hi ALJ,

I feel your pain. Hopefully you were not married
at the time. Women NEVER forget that kind of
screw up.

When I am working on a customer's laptop, I try my
best to keep track of what screw came out of where.
A piece of tape across them keeps from having to dig
around on the floor looking for them. And a magnetic
screwdriver helps too.

When I have forgotten were the long screws came from,
I will try out the short screws in every hole. The
ones that won't take, I presume are the long screw
holes.

Two weeks ago I was upgrading and NVMe drive in a
customer's laptop. It was a Lenovo think pad. I
discovered that Lenovo had captured the screws so
they would not come out all the way. I was impress
at the fore thought put into the feature. A great
stress reducer.

-T

-T

Am 11.11.23 um 20:36 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> On 2023-11-11 18:53, AJL wrote:
>> On 11/11/2023 10:14 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>>> I've read that laptops should be stored with 50% to 80% charge, and I
>>> just assumed it would be the same for cameras. Luckily my only
>>> cameras are part of phones or laptops.
>>
>> My phone (Galaxy S10+) can be set to only charge to 85%. But I prefer a
>> full charge to start the day with (I'm an overnight charger) because you
>> never know when you'll need it. So far at 4+ years I've not NOTICED any
>> battery problems (crosses fingers)...
>
> My current phone when charging overnight limits charge to around 80%,
> but goes to 100% at the time the alarm bell rings. I can't have it not
> fully charge on automatics.

Only the newest smartphones allow to chose the reduced charging level.
Most of them charge to 100% from time to time anyway to recalibrate the
electronics.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

On 2023-11-12 06:19, T wrote:
> On 11/11/23 09:53, AJL wrote:
>> I was putting a laptop back together and
>> put a long screw where a short screw was supposed to go and punctured
>> the battery. I still remember the flame shooting out. Scary. I was able
>> to carry it outside and throw it on the rocks (rock yard - we try to
>> conserve water here in the desert). But I guess I can't blame that one
>> on the battery now can I...
>
> Hi ALJ,
>
> I feel your pain.  Hopefully you were not married
> at the time.  Women NEVER forget that kind of
> screw up.
>
> When I am working on a customer's laptop, I try my
> best to keep track of what screw came out of where.
> A piece of tape across them keeps from having to dig
> around on the floor looking for them.  And a magnetic
> screwdriver helps too.

Put them stuck to a paper or some thing in the same position as they
were in the device.

Only if you find they are all identical you can group them.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-11-12 02:16, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 11 Nov 2023 13:11:28 +0100, "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-11-11 11:26, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> On 11.11.23 10:29, T wrote:
>>>> On 11/11/23 00:07, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> On 11.11.23 04:23, T wrote:
>>>>>> Hi All,

>>>> Much harder to catch fire
>>>
>>> If correctly used this is and never was an issue. The probability is not
>>> much idfferent from zero.
>>
>> After two fires, city transport in Madrid has prohibited portable
>> electric vehicles inside buses and Metro (underground railway). This
>> breaks greatly the advantage of those vehicles, but it is true that
>> there have been recent fires, the one on the Metro stopping service
>> totally in one of the lines for hours.
>>
>> The airline in which I flew this summer prohibits all kind of batteries
>> in the baggage that goes into the cargo hold. Even standard AA batteries
>> or button cell (watch) batteries.
>
> Do button or 9v batteries ever leak?

9V batteries leak eventually, when they corrode after several years.
Button cells I have not seen them leak.

Standard batteries, I always buy brand names, not supermarket white
brands. Safer when forgotten inside deices, more years till they leak.

Happens on TV remotes, it is typical. They last so much that you forget
they are on batteries. And when the battery is very low (below nominal
voltage, say 1.4 volts) they start degrading and can leak if you keep
using them.

> I recently uncovered my studfinder with an Engergizer Max, that I hadn't
> seen for 3-1/2 years and it was still good.

:-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote

>> and only about 1/10 the capacity of a lithium polymer
>> power bank
>
> That's why they're obsolete.

One thing they're really good at is they have a low internal resistance.

That means the instantaneous current output is phenomenal .

It could still have niche uses as a high instantaneous current source.

On 11/12/23 11:05, Wally J wrote:
> Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>> and only about 1/10 the capacity of a lithium polymer
>>> power bank
>>
>> That's why they're obsolete.
>
> One thing they're really good at is they have a low internal resistance.
>
> That means the instantaneous current output is phenomenal .
>
> It could still have niche uses as a high instantaneous current source.

Hmmmmm. Sounds just what a motor need to start up!

On 11/12/23 05:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-12 06:19, T wrote:
>> On 11/11/23 09:53, AJL wrote:
>>> I was putting a laptop back together and
>>> put a long screw where a short screw was supposed to go and punctured
>>> the battery. I still remember the flame shooting out. Scary. I was able
>>> to carry it outside and throw it on the rocks (rock yard - we try to
>>> conserve water here in the desert). But I guess I can't blame that one
>>> on the battery now can I...
>>
>> Hi ALJ,
>>
>> I feel your pain.  Hopefully you were not married
>> at the time.  Women NEVER forget that kind of
>> screw up.
>>
>> When I am working on a customer's laptop, I try my
>> best to keep track of what screw came out of where.
>> A piece of tape across them keeps from having to dig
>> around on the floor looking for them.  And a magnetic
>> screwdriver helps too.
>
> Put them stuck to a paper or some thing in the same position as they
> were in the device.
>
> Only if you find they are all identical you can group them.
>

Oh ya. I remove them with a magnet and stick them somewhere
that is not an issue. Except for the ones that fumble
finger off my fingers, then I am back to searching the floor.