....and a few versions back.

Apparently whatever file manager you use to copy files from your
computer (specifically .pdfs and ebooks) sets the permissions on those
files so that you can ONLY read them with your reader by going through
that file manager -- which alters the way the readers operate. If it
weren't for that this would be a nuisance, but acceptable.

Removing the 'defaults' doesn't work. Deleting the offending file
manager doesn't work. We've used Cx, ES and the 'Files' app on the
just-purchased Lenovo.

Is there some way of changing the permissions of the files such that the
file managers are entirely out of the picture? Presumably rooting the
tablet would do it, but I don't want to do that.

Lenovo "tech support" is of NO help -- different problem which they
SHOULD have known about and which ultimately had no solution because
that's just the way they made it work, but it took forever and two
(rejected, of course) attempts to convince me to let them reset the
Lenovo.

My Lenovo tablet has a power-switch problem. These people USED to be good.

--
Cheers, Bev
VISE GRIPS (VYS'-gripz) [n] A tool used to transfer intense
welding heat to the palm of the welder's hand. -- DS

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...and a few versions back.
>
> Apparently whatever file manager you use to copy files from your
> computer (specifically .pdfs and ebooks) sets the permissions on those
> files so that you can ONLY read them with your reader by going through
> that file manager -- which alters the way the readers operate. If it
> weren't for that this would be a nuisance, but acceptable.
>
> Removing the 'defaults' doesn't work. Deleting the offending file
> manager doesn't work. We've used Cx, ES and the 'Files' app on the
> just-purchased Lenovo.

I don't have any ebooks to try, but I can open .pdf files from either
Samsung's 'My Files' app or the 'FX File Explorer' [1] app. So it works
for two file managers, not just one.

Perhaps relevant: When I copy files to the phone, I nearly always use
an USB connection and (Windows) File Manager, i.e. a MTP connection.

Perhaps you can set up a MTP connection on your Linux system and see
if that makes any difference.
> Is there some way of changing the permissions of the files such that the
> file managers are entirely out of the picture? Presumably rooting the
> tablet would do it, but I don't want to do that.

[...]

[1] 'FX File Explorer'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=nextapp.fx>
(I use FX File Explorer because I no longer want to use dodgy Chinese
file managers like ES File Explorer (ambiguous name).)

On 11/20/2023 9:16 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

>
> Apparently whatever file manager you use to copy files from your
> computer (specifically .pdfs and ebooks) sets the permissions on those
> files so that you can ONLY read them with your reader by going through
> that file manager -- which alters the way the readers operate.
>

That _shouldn't_ happen. It is undesirable behavior by your file manager.

> Removing the 'defaults' doesn't work.  Deleting the offending file
> manager doesn't work.  We've used Cx, ES and the 'Files' app on the
> just-purchased Lenovo.

Removing defaults _should_ cause Android to prompt for the app the next
time that you try to open the file.

>
> Is there some way of changing the permissions of the files such that the
> file managers are entirely out of the picture?  Presumably rooting the
> tablet would do it, but I don't want to do that.

Permissions are unrelated to the default app. If you think that the
permissions on the file are screwed up, I'd suggest mounting your phone
as a storage device on your PC. Copy the affected files to the PC,
delete them from your Android device, then copy them back. Use the
Windows file explorer (or equivalent if you are on Mac or Linux) to do
the copying.

Under earlier versions of Android, I had good luck using an app called
"Default App Manager" to associate file types to their default apps.
Unfortunately, the version that is currently on my phone (transferred
from an earlier device) doesn't appear to work with Android 12, but the
icon for it is different than the app with the same name currently on
Google Play. YMMV.

-David

On 11/20/2023 10:58 AM, I wrote:

>
> Unfortunately, the version that is currently on my phone (transferred
> from an earlier device) doesn't appear to work with Android 12, but the
> icon for it is different than the app with the same name currently on
> Google Play.  YMMV.
>

Just checked one of my device backups to locate the APK for the app.
The version that I used previously was from a company called "Appiator",
which doesn't seem to have any apps on Google Play.

However, I'd suggest playing with the apps that do come up when you
search for "Default App Manager" to see if any of them work for you.

-David

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

> Apparently whatever file manager you use to copy files from your
> computer (specifically .pdfs and ebooks) sets the permissions on those
> files so that you can ONLY read them with your reader by going through
> that file manager -- which alters the way the readers operate. If it
> weren't for that this would be a nuisance, but acceptable.

Hi The Real Bev,
I had the *opposite* problem and wrote about it on this newsgroup about a
year or so ago, where I could create a text file with any old file manager
- but then - only _that file manager_ could edit that text file.

No text editor would (they'd read it & edit it but not save the results).
Weird, right?

However, if I created that text file on Windows, and then _copied_ that
text file over to Android, then _any text editor_ could edit that file.

Huh?
That's the exact opposite of what you're finding, right?

And I was on Android 12 at the time, for sure.

Since my workaround was so easy, and since I keep a known set of standard
text files, I didn't delve deeper into solving that particular problem.
/sdcard01/data/txt/*.txt

So your stated issue is the exact opposite of my stated issue, even as the
end result is only one file manager (or file editor) saved at a time.

So, even though I do NOT know the answer to your problem, I'll be looking
at the answers as I'm glad you asked because maybe a solution will ensue.

What I suggest is you find a pdf or ebook on the net that everyone can
download and then you tell us the exact file managers (which others may
have installed) and then we can duplicate exactly the issue you have.

You can pick the PDF file but here's arbitrary Android PDFs to help out.
Android: Beginning Android - Mark L. Murphy
<https://download.library.lol/main/178000/12671bf03f05dcdc2244da22680adb40/%20-%20Beginning%20Android-Apress%20%282009%29.pdf>
Android: Pro Android - Satya Komatineni, Sayed Hashimi
<https://download.library.lol/main/178000/59df44a5a5485bc9d61203c9ad209b12/Satya%20Komatineni%2C%20Sayed%20Hashimi%20-%20Pro%20Android-Apress%20%282009%29.pdf>
Android: A Programmer's Guide - J.F. DiMarzio
<https://download.library.lol/main/205000/1bbc0fedaf757e5a2041de9702284f8b/J.F.%20DiMarzio%20-%20ANDROID%20A%20PROGRAMMERS%20GUIDE-mcgraw-hill%20%282008%29.pdf>

Those links were current as of a moment ago, so let me know if they don't
work over time as I didn't actually bother to download the files yet.
--
Posting a question on Usenet is an attempt to learn from others who know
more than you do, and to combine our tribal knowledge for all to benefit.

On 11/20/23 10:44 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...and a few versions back.
>>
>> Apparently whatever file manager you use to copy files from your
>> computer (specifically .pdfs and ebooks) sets the permissions on those
>> files so that you can ONLY read them with your reader by going through
>> that file manager -- which alters the way the readers operate. If it
>> weren't for that this would be a nuisance, but acceptable.

Addendum: I had used the 'files' manager to do the transfer on the
no-name tablet and thought that that solved the problem on the Lenovo
tablet, but it didn't. 'Files' just assumed ownership instead of ES or
Cx.

>> Removing the 'defaults' doesn't work. Deleting the offending file
>> manager doesn't work. We've used Cx, ES and the 'Files' app on the
>> just-purchased Lenovo.

I use the ftp function of ES or Cx to suck files from my computer. That
seems to be the only way to do it with tablets or the Pixel2. I have
been thus far unable to 'see' the phone with my computer in spite of
plugging in the USB cable and setting the USB to 'file transfer'. lsusb
sees
Bus 003 Device 016: ID 18d1:4ee1 Google Inc. Nexus 4 / 10

but fdisk -l doesn't see it. dmesg sees
new high-speed USB device number 16 using xhci_hcd

but I have no idea what to do with that.

> I don't have any ebooks to try, but I can open .pdf files from either
> Samsung's 'My Files' app or the 'FX File Explorer' [1] app. So it works
> for two file managers, not just one.
>
> Perhaps relevant: When I copy files to the phone, I nearly always use
> an USB connection and (Windows) File Manager, i.e. a MTP connection.

Windows and other versions of linux do some things automatically, but
slackware is as "user-friendly as a cornered rat."

> Perhaps you can set up a MTP connection on your Linux system and see
> if that makes any difference.

Nothing on the Pixel actually says MTP, but there is a USB 'file
transfer' setting -- which didn't do anything.

>> Is there some way of changing the permissions of the files such that the
>> file managers are entirely out of the picture? Presumably rooting the
>> tablet would do it, but I don't want to do that.

I haven't tried making the files read-only with linux (does that prevent
copying?); perhaps that would work...

At some point Android added some sort of 'sandboxing' function, but I
didn't pay any attention. Is this perhaps the result?

> [...]
>
> [1] 'FX File Explorer'
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=nextapp.fx>
> (I use FX File Explorer because I no longer want to use dodgy Chinese
> file managers like ES File Explorer (ambiguous name).)

--
Cheers, Bev
If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.
--Revolution Books, New York, New York

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

> Addendum: I had used the 'files' manager to do the transfer on the
> no-name tablet and thought that that solved the problem on the Lenovo
> tablet, but it didn't. 'Files' just assumed ownership instead of ES or
> Cx.

Hi The Real Bev,

It's unusual for someone to have issues with file transfers between
Android and any desktop (even a Linux desktop) so something is awry.

I have tested all the known free file managers, and settled mostly on
the following, where they're ordered in the order I find them most useful.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Hxj3qWZS/filemgr01.jpg> File Managers on Old phone
<https://i.postimg.cc/3Rgyzbjj/filemgr04.jpg> File Managers on New phone

Note: Like many open source tools, you need more than one file manager
(as certain features that you may need at times are best on some.)
<https://www.xda-developers.com/best-file-manager-android/#amaze-file-manager>

1. MixExplorer <https://mixplorer.com/>
You can get <com.mixexplorer> for free if you know where to look.
<https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/app-2-2-mixplorer-v6-x-released-fully-featured-file-manager.1523691/>
Note <com.mixexplorer> is free while <com.mixplorer.silver> is not.
Yet they're both the same (as I recall - but it has been a while).

2. Simple File Manager Pro (open source)
<https://f-droid.org/packages/com.simplemobiletools.filemanager.pro/>

3. MK Explorer (File manager)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pl.mkexplorer.kormateusz>

4. FX File Explorer
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=nextapp.fx>

5. Samsung My Files
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sec.android.app.myfiles>

6. Amaze File Manager
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.amaze.filemanager>

7. X-plore File Manager
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lonelycatgames.Xplore>

8. OI File Manager
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.openintents.filemanager>

9. Material Files (open source)
<https://github.com/zhanghai/MaterialFiles>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.zhanghai.android.files>

There are a few other file managers I have on my system but they're
grayed out at the moment (being grayed out simply means I carried them
over from an old phone in the homescreen backup but didn't bother to
click on them yet - where clicking on them automatically installs them).
<https://i.postimg.cc/3Rgyzbjj/filemgr04.jpg> File Managers on New phone

>>> Removing the 'defaults' doesn't work. Deleting the offending file
>>> manager doesn't work. We've used Cx, ES and the 'Files' app on the
>>> just-purchased Lenovo.
>
> I use the ftp function of ES or Cx to suck files from my computer. That
> seems to be the only way to do it with tablets or the Pixel2. I have
> been thus far unable to 'see' the phone with my computer in spite of
> plugging in the USB cable and setting the USB to 'file transfer'.

It's usually not an issue but since you're having an issue, I'd look in
your Developer options just to be sure of the "Default USB configuration".
<https://i.postimg.cc/JnDTWH9M/usb01.jpg> USB default settings

Developer options > Default USB configuration
"This setting will be applied when your phone is unlocked & connected
to another device. Only connect to devices that you trust."
1. Transferring files <=== Mine is set to this
2. USB tethering
3. MIDI
4. Transferring images <=== what the heck is that for? Is that MTP?
5. Charging phone only <=== make sure it's NOT set to this
--
It's hard to help others when the platforms and versions are different.

On 11/21/23 10:53 AM, Wally J wrote:
....

> Developer options > Default USB configuration
> "This setting will be applied when your phone is unlocked & connected
> to another device. Only connect to devices that you trust."
> 1. Transferring files <=== Mine is set to this
> 2. USB tethering
> 3. MIDI
> 4. Transferring images <=== what the heck is that for? Is that MTP?
> 5. Charging phone only <=== make sure it's NOT set to this
> --
> It's hard to help others when the platforms and versions are different.

I have tried 3 file managers to suck files FROM my computer, and all
three latch on to the files and demand that they be read ONLY through
them -- and the performance of the readers themselves is changed. Not
acceptable.

I'm looking for a way to use linux to copy files FROM my linux computer
to the android tablets. Windows and some versions of linux do this with
no further attention. As I mentioned previously, slackware is as
user-friendly as a cornered rat.

--
Cheers, Bev
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.
-- Anonymous Democrat

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

> I have tried 3 file managers to suck files FROM my computer, and all
> three latch on to the files and demand that they be read ONLY through
> them -- and the performance of the readers themselves is changed. Not
> acceptable.
>
> I'm looking for a way to use linux to copy files FROM my linux computer
> to the android tablets. Windows and some versions of linux do this with
> no further attention. As I mentioned previously, slackware is as
> user-friendly as a cornered rat.

I feel for you, especially as I had a "somewhat related perhaps" problem,
that when I created a text file on Android, only one Android app would edit
it, but if I created the text file on Windows and simply slid it over the
USB cable to Android, then any Android app would edit it.

I was frustrated to no end... but luckily I had an easy solution.
You don't have an easy solution to your issue - so it's frustrating.

Unfortunately, my dual boot setup crashed long ago and I never bothered to
fix it so I no longer have a Linux device to test against. Good luck!
--
Usenet is where people of all experience levels meld their experiences for
the benefit of the team, each one adding more value with each thread post.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/21/23 10:53 AM, Wally J wrote:
> ...
>
> > Developer options > Default USB configuration
> > "This setting will be applied when your phone is unlocked & connected
> > to another device. Only connect to devices that you trust."
> > 1. Transferring files <=== Mine is set to this
> > 2. USB tethering
> > 3. MIDI
> > 4. Transferring images <=== what the heck is that for? Is that MTP?

Nope, that's PTP, Picture Transfer Protocol.
> > 5. Charging phone only <=== make sure it's NOT set to this
> > --
> > It's hard to help others when the platforms and versions are different.
>
> I have tried 3 file managers to suck files FROM my computer, and all
> three latch on to the files and demand that they be read ONLY through
> them -- and the performance of the readers themselves is changed. Not
> acceptable.
>
> I'm looking for a way to use linux to copy files FROM my linux computer
> to the android tablets. Windows and some versions of linux do this with
> no further attention. As I mentioned previously, slackware is as
> user-friendly as a cornered rat.

'Wally J' (aka 'Arlen Holder') probably can help with using MTP on
Linux and probably Carlos can as well.

'Arlen' already gave the correct USB setting on the Android side:

> > 1. Transferring files <=== Mine is set to this

And I indeed mean copying files FROM the computer TO the Android
device, by using a 'file manager' ON the computer.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/21/23 10:53 AM, Wally J wrote:
>>> 4. Transferring images <=== what the heck is that for? Is that MTP?
>
> Nope, that's PTP, Picture Transfer Protocol.

Hi Frank,
Ah. Thanks. That makes sense. Much appreciated the clarification, not only
for me, but for everyone like The Real Bev who has USB-transfer issues.

You hate me but I will agree with anyone on Usenet who makes a sensible
assessment of fact, no matter what nym shows up in their wrapping paper.

BTW, I read all your posts, and I thank you for not only helping me hone my
headers, but also for reporting me to many of the nntp news admins
(some of whom told me you did that).

> 'Wally J' (aka 'Arlen Holder') probably can help with using MTP on
> Linux and probably Carlos can as well.
> 'Arlen' already gave the correct USB setting on the Android side:

I used that meaningless nym in the wrapping paper until Rod Speed and
nospam both (but more directly Rod Speed) asked for people to murder me.

Interesting how one of many sticks - like a particularly pretty wrapper.
They're all from a dictionary culled from Usenet posts on hundreds of ngs.

>>> 1. Transferring files <=== Mine is set to this
>
> And I indeed mean copying files FROM the computer TO the Android
> device, by using a 'file manager' ON the computer.

For The Real Bev's benefit, you are probably the most knowledgeable here on
file transfer although I'm no slouch given I've tested every known method.

For example, you taught me (and all of us) about FTPUse and the problem
with SMB ports on any Android CIFs/SMB/Samba client, and you tried to teach
me about Usenet headers (you always let me know when they're screwed up).

While I grew up on computers during the heady Unix days, and I worked on
SunOS/Solaris and Masscomp and DEC VAX/VMS for years before the advent of
Redhat (which, when I retired, I moved to CentOS and then to Ubuntu), I
don't recall ever having the problem that The Real Bev is experiencing.

Linux usually worked even better than Windows (if you can believe that),
especially when connecting to the walled-garden iOS devices I owned.

I think it could be that the problems The Real Bev is having are related to
permissions, but I never really understood how Android does permissions.
--
Sensible people will agree with anyone who says something logically sound.

On 21 Nov 2023 09:30:50 -0800 The Real Bev wrote:
>
>At some point Android added some sort of 'sandboxing' function, but I
>didn't pay any attention. Is this perhaps the result?
>
I think what you're seeing is application sandboxing. Android has always
had sandboxing (as does iOS) but it's become stricter in later versions.
In Linux terms each app is a user and files and directories have the usual
r/w permissions by user and group. In addition each app has its own areas
of the filesystem which other apps either can't see, or can see but can't
write to.

I just went looking for a user's guide to sandboxing and didn't find one.
There are developer guides such as this
<https://source.android.com/docs/security/app-sandbox>
Maybe a more diligent seach will find something better.

Then there are each app's own permissions, which can allow or disallow
access to some common folders, such as photos. There were changes to that
recently - it might have been in Android 12: I had to change how this
newsreader app stored its database.

--
(Remove numerics from email address)

On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 11/20/23 10:44 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...and a few versions back.
>>>
>>> Apparently whatever file manager you use to copy files from your
>>> computer (specifically .pdfs and ebooks) sets the permissions on
>>> those files so that you can ONLY read them with your reader by going
>>> through that file manager -- which alters the way the readers
>>> operate.  If it weren't for that this would be a nuisance, but
>>> acceptable.
>
> Addendum:  I had used the 'files' manager to do the transfer on the
> no-name tablet and thought that that solved the problem on the Lenovo
> tablet, but it didn't.  'Files' just assumed ownership instead of ES or Cx.

Certainly, as intended.

>>> Removing the 'defaults' doesn't work.  Deleting the offending file
>>> manager doesn't work.  We've used Cx, ES and the 'Files' app on the
>>> just-purchased Lenovo.
>
> I use the ftp function of ES or Cx to suck files from my computer.  That
> seems to be the only way to do it with tablets or the Pixel2.  I have
> been thus far unable to 'see' the phone with my computer in spite of
> plugging in the USB cable and setting the USB to 'file transfer'.  lsusb
> sees
>      Bus 003 Device 016: ID 18d1:4ee1 Google Inc. Nexus 4 / 10
>
> but fdisk -l doesn't see it.  dmesg sees
>      new high-speed USB device number 16 using xhci_hcd

No, fdisk will never see the "disk" on modern Androids (modern since
perhaps a decade).

The computer doesn't see a disk, but what Android decides to show via
PPT or MTP protocol. And it is a limited access, not all file or disk
functions are implemented (intentionally). This is to avoid corruption
of files when the user suddenly disconnects the cable, and to allow both
computer and phone to access simultaneously "the disk".

Whether MTP or PTP are available depends on the choice you do on the
phone when connecting the USB cable. A prompt asks you.

You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.

Or you can try, using the phone file manager, to save files in a
commonly accessible folder in your phone, perhaps /downloads.

Maybe your pdf reader can ask for permission to read some folders, or
maybe all folders, on the phone.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/22/23 3:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:

> You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
> computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
> only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
> permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.

I was hoping that perhaps files sent BY the computer would be accessible
by any app on the phone, but that's looking increasingly unrealistic. I
suspect -- without having tried -- that the first app used would lay
claim. That would be OK for reading books (EBookDroid is about as good
as it gets, even though the guy hasn't updated it for 2 years), but
perhaps not for other files.

> Or you can try, using the phone file manager, to save files in a
> commonly accessible folder in your phone, perhaps /downloads.

Hrm. Is that subdirectory actually common? How can I tell except by
trial and error?

> Maybe your pdf reader can ask for permission to read some folders, or
> maybe all folders, on the phone.

I would think that that was the default, at least for files that it was
built to handle, but apparently I was mistaken.

--
Cheers, Bev
Q: How many lawyers does it take to grease a combine?
A: One, if you feed him in real slow.

On 2023-11-23 03:15, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 11/22/23 3:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
>> computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
>> only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
>> permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.
>
> I was hoping that perhaps files sent BY the computer would be accessible
> by any app on the phone, but that's looking increasingly unrealistic.  I
> suspect -- without having tried -- that the first app used would lay
> claim.  That would be OK for reading books (EBookDroid is about as good
> as it gets, even though the guy hasn't updated it for 2 years), but
> perhaps not for other files.

I just tried with my EBookDroid and it can see all directories.
Hamburger Menu, Local files.

On the phone setup, Applications, EBookDroid, Permissions, I have
(translating from Spanish, so wording can differ):

Files and multimedia content
Access during the las 24 hours · All files

Check that one.

Also on "Applications not used" disable "remove permissions and free space".

If you want to see "all permissions", tap on the mini-hamburger menu top
right.

>> Or you can try, using the phone file manager, to save files in a
>> commonly accessible folder in your phone, perhaps /downloads.
>
> Hrm.  Is that subdirectory actually common?  How can I tell except by
> trial and error?

It is standard, but name can vary. Files says it in Spanish for me.

>
>> Maybe your pdf reader can ask for permission to read some folders, or
>> maybe all folders, on the phone.
>
> I would think that that was the default, at least for files that it was
> built to handle, but apparently I was mistaken.

No, when it runs the first time it asks Android for permissions, and may
be able to access all PDF only on some directories.

And Android by default will remove all permissions 2 or 3 months later
if no usage.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 22 Nov 2023 18:15:06 -0800 The Real Bev wrote:
>On 11/22/23 3:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
>> computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
>> only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
>> permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.
>
>I was hoping that perhaps files sent BY the computer would be accessible
>by any app on the phone, but that's looking increasingly unrealistic. I
>suspect -- without having tried -- that the first app used would lay
>claim. That would be OK for reading books (EBookDroid is about as good
>as it gets, even though the guy hasn't updated it for 2 years), but
>perhaps not for other files.
>
>> Or you can try, using the phone file manager, to save files in a
>> commonly accessible folder in your phone, perhaps /downloads.
>
>Hrm. Is that subdirectory actually common? How can I tell except by
>trial and error?
>
When I open Samsung's 'Files' app it shows me the 'common' folders, which
apps can (if the app has the correct permissions, and the files are of a
type the app can handle* - open files in). But maybe not save into.

One exception is the 'Android' folder which it says I can only access from
a PC. That contains a set of folders each owned by a single app. You can
pull and push files in there with adb - probably with MTP too.

It does not show (unless rooted) all the folders that it cannot access,
and you cannot access from a PC**. 'All folders' never includes those, it
means all common folders.

*Android uses file extensions like Windows, not mime-types like Linux.

**e.g app data which is in /data/data/<app_id> iirc from when I had a
rooted device.

>> Maybe your pdf reader can ask for permission to read some folders, or
>> maybe all folders, on the phone.
>
>I would think that that was the default, at least for files that it was
>built to handle, but apparently I was mistaken.

Whether an app can 'handle' a file type is declared by the app builder.
When I select a file in 'Files' and 'open in', I'm only offered apps that
have declared that extension. This can be irritating: I have files with
abc extensions which are plain text, but to open then - from Files - in a
text editor I have to rename the file extension to txt. xml files are
openable in Chrome (but not Firefox for some reason) but to edit them I
must change the file extension to txt.

OTOH, whether a text editor can open a file from its 'open' menu seems to
depend on how it codes its file selector. My text editor - DroidEdit -
will open .abc or .xml file, even though Android doesn't know that. I had
another text editor which would only open .txt files.

--
(Remove numerics from email address)

Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>
> > The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 11/21/23 10:53 AM, Wally J wrote:
> >>> 4. Transferring images <=== what the heck is that for? Is that MTP?
> >
> > Nope, that's PTP, Picture Transfer Protocol.
>
> Hi Frank,
> Ah. Thanks. That makes sense. Much appreciated the clarification, not only
> for me, but for everyone like The Real Bev who has USB-transfer issues.

You're welcome. I thought this was common knowledge, but perhaps that
is because - IIRC - on old Android versions it specifically said 'PTP'
(instead of 'Transferring images').

> You hate me but I will agree with anyone on Usenet who makes a sensible
> assessment of fact, no matter what nym shows up in their wrapping paper.

For the record, I don't hate you. For me, 'hate' is an emotion I
luckily have for very few - if any - people.

> BTW, I read all your posts, and I thank you for not only helping me hone my
> headers, but also for reporting me to many of the nntp news admins
> (some of whom told me you did that).

Huh!? I've never done that. Of course there have been discussions in
the abuse and admin groups where your *past* group abuse did come up and
I might have posted in those discussions. But discussing abuse in the
appropriate groups isn't 'reporting you to the news admins'.

> > 'Wally J' (aka 'Arlen Holder') probably can help with using MTP on
> > Linux and probably Carlos can as well.
> > 'Arlen' already gave the correct USB setting on the Android side:
>
> I used that meaningless nym in the wrapping paper until Rod Speed and
> nospam both (but more directly Rod Speed) asked for people to murder me.

You mention that once in a while, but you never posted any proof of
those threats.

> Interesting how one of many sticks - like a particularly pretty wrapper.
> They're all from a dictionary culled from Usenet posts on hundreds of ngs.
>
> >>> 1. Transferring files <=== Mine is set to this
> >
> > And I indeed mean copying files FROM the computer TO the Android
> > device, by using a 'file manager' ON the computer.
>
> For The Real Bev's benefit, you are probably the most knowledgeable here on
> file transfer although I'm no slouch given I've tested every known method.

Sorry, but that's way too much praise. You did much more work/
investigation than I.

> For example, you taught me (and all of us) about FTPUse and the problem
> with SMB ports on any Android CIFs/SMB/Samba client, and you tried to teach
> me about Usenet headers (you always let me know when they're screwed up).

It's actually *you* who pointed *me* to FTPUse! :-) But the rest is
mostly correct.

> While I grew up on computers during the heady Unix days, and I worked on
> SunOS/Solaris and Masscomp and DEC VAX/VMS for years before the advent of
> Redhat (which, when I retired, I moved to CentOS and then to Ubuntu), I
> don't recall ever having the problem that The Real Bev is experiencing.
>
> Linux usually worked even better than Windows (if you can believe that),
> especially when connecting to the walled-garden iOS devices I owned.
>
> I think it could be that the problems The Real Bev is having are related to
> permissions, but I never really understood how Android does permissions.

All the best.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> Sadly, neither 'Arlen' nor Carlos have commented on how to set up such
> a USB MTP connection on the Linux side. They only covered the Android
> side.

I don't dual boot anymore. Mostly I did so for the iPads since it was easier
to transfer files into the so-called 'sandbox' areas with Linux than with
Windows (which shows what a farce the Apple 'sandbox' truly was).
<https://i.postimg.cc/Jhmy9KH7/files06.jpg> Ubuntu uses iFuse for its magic
I
> They should not make any permission changes to folders *outside* their
> 'territory', i.e. *outside* /Android/[data|obb|<etc>/<app-id>.

I agree with Frank even as I never understood Android permissions
(as I never cared to bother) because I stick stuff I care about
in my own folder, one for each sdcard.
a. For the internal storage sdcard === folder name I created is "0000".
b. For the external storage sdcard === folder name I created is "0001".
<https://i.postimg.cc/yYWwgGmy/webdav12.jpg> X-Plore file manager
> For this very purpose, many apps have 'import' and 'export' functions.
> They import files into their territory, do whatever they like with the
> imported copy and export them, so they can be used by other apps.
> For example OsmAnd+ has an Export function (Settings -> Backup &
> Restore -> Back up as file -> Export), so you can export Settings, My
> Places and Resources to a file, so that can be backed up by a backup
> app, which has no access to that data within OsmAnd+'s territory.

Yup. Again, Frank is correct. Many Contacts apps, for example, export
and import from user storage areas. As do APK-export/backup programs.

My recommendation?

1. Create your own folder at the top of each sdcard (internal & external).
2. Then put (& get) anything you care about into (out of) that folder.

Then you only have to worry about the permissions for that one folder.

> It is common and probably even standard in all Android versions. The
> actual folder name is probably /Download (no trailing 's'), but as
> Carlos mentioned it might have a local language synonym and in other
> places it might have a slightly different name. For example in the
> 'Categories' section of Samsung's My Files app, it's called 'Downloads'
> (with trailing 's').

My Samsung also has Download at the "top level" of the user storage area.
<https://i.postimg.cc/BvJdKWzt/webdav06.jpg> Download folder

> Try to keep the original copy of your files outside the app's
> territory (/Android/...) ad only the working copy inside the app's
> territory.

My recommendation having worked with computers for decades?
1. Create a top-level directory in each of your two sdcards
Call it anything you want - I call mine "0000" and "0001"
That way they show up first in any directory listing attempt
2. Then spend your energy setting the permission for that one folder
3. After that, put all files you care about into that one folder

By doing that, you allow all the apps to use the files you put in that folder.
Works for me. (But I'm methodical.)

> In summary: Where to keep your files? *Anywhere* shown by the *native*
> 'file manager' of your Android device (*not* Cx, ES, <whatever>),
> *except* /Android [1].

My suggestion is to keep all files in one folder.
Of course that folder has a hierarchy _below_ it to organize stuff.

/sdcard0/0000/{apks,docs,pics,maps,passwords,videos,etc.}
/sdcard1/0001/{apks,docs,pics,maps,passwords,videos,etc.}

> [1] '/Android' is actually something like '/Interal storage/Android'
> (and possibly also something like '/<SD whatever>/Android', if you have
> a SD-card).

This is sometimes confusing, as Frank correctly alluded to.

Some file managers show the accurate "unix-like" path to things.
Some don't.

Here's a file manager that does (X-Plore).
<https://i.postimg.cc/yYWwgGmy/webdav12.jpg> unix-like paths
Here's a file manager that does not (File Manager).
<https://i.postimg.cc/BvmRBrbt/webdav03.jpg> user-friendly names

This is IMPORTANT!

What the file manager shows you as the path isn't the "real" path
in some file managers.

My suggestion for TheRealBev is to use "X-Plore" to see the real path.

Notice, for me, my linux-like storage locations on one phone are called:
1. internal sdcard0 === /storage/emulated/0/{Android filesys}
2. external sdcard1 === /storage/0000-0001/{Android filesys}

Note that I formatted that external sdcard on purpose with the name
"0000-0001" which I do for _all_ my sdcards so that if I pop one out
and pop it into another phone (or vice versa) it all still works.
--
But I'm methodical.

On 2023-11-23 09:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-23 03:15, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 11/22/23 3:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
>>> computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
>>> only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
>>> permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.
>>
>> I was hoping that perhaps files sent BY the computer would be
>> accessible by any app on the phone, but that's looking increasingly
>> unrealistic.  I suspect -- without having tried -- that the first app
>> used would lay claim.  That would be OK for reading books (EBookDroid
>> is about as good as it gets, even though the guy hasn't updated it for
>> 2 years), but perhaps not for other files.
>
> I just tried with my EBookDroid and it can see all directories.
> Hamburger Menu, Local files.

Arlen, your post has been purged upstream.

article: <ujnnuk$1rsn1$1@paganini.bofh.team> (110844)

I only know you replied. Also article:
<ujnnv6$1rsrr$1@paganini.bofh.team> (110845)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 11/23/23 6:43 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/22/23 3:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> > On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>> > You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
>> > computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
>> > only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
>> > permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.
>>
>> I was hoping that perhaps files sent BY the computer would be accessible
>> by any app on the phone, but that's looking increasingly unrealistic.
>
> No, as I said before, if the transfer is done by MTP with a file
> manager *on the computer*, it probably *will* work. As I mentioned, it
> works for me when using a USB MTP connection from the Windows File
> Explorer on the computer side.
>
> Sadly, neither 'Arlen' nor Carlos have commented on how to set up such
> a USB MTP connection on the Linux side. They only covered the Android
> side.
>
>> I
>> suspect -- without having tried -- that the first app used would lay
>> claim. That would be OK for reading books (EBookDroid is about as good
>> as it gets, even though the guy hasn't updated it for 2 years), but
>> perhaps not for other files.
>
> They should not make any permission changes to folders *outside* their
> 'territory', i.e. *outside* /Android/[data|obb|<etc>/<app-id>.
>
> For this very purpose, many apps have 'import' and 'export' functions.
> They import files into their territory, do whatever they like with the
> imported copy and export them, so they can be used by other apps.
>
> For example OsmAnd+ has an Export function (Settings -> Backup &
> Restore -> Back up as file -> Export), so you can export Settings, My
> Places and Resources to a file, so that can be backed up by a backup
> app, which has no access to that data within OsmAnd+'s territory.
>
>> > Or you can try, using the phone file manager, to save files in a
>> > commonly accessible folder in your phone, perhaps /downloads.
>>
>> Hrm. Is that subdirectory actually common? How can I tell except by
>> trial and error?
>
> It is common and probably even standard in all Android versions. The
> actual folder name is probably /Download (no trailing 's'), but as
> Carlos mentioned it might have a local language synonym and in other
> places it might have a slightly different name. For example in the
> 'Categories' section of Samsung's My Files app, it's called 'Downloads'
> (with trailing 's').
>
>> > Maybe your pdf reader can ask for permission to read some folders, or
>> > maybe all folders, on the phone.
>>
>> I would think that that was the default, at least for files that it was
>> built to handle, but apparently I was mistaken.
>
> Try to keep the original copy of your files outside the app's
> territory (/Android/...) ad only the working copy inside the app's
> territory.
>
> In summary: Where to keep your files? *Anywhere* shown by the *native*
> 'file manager' of your Android device (*not* Cx, ES, <whatever>),
> *except* /Android [1].

Not really clear -- when I did the auto-copy from my Motorola, I had
previously set that to use the sdcard as a memory extension and that
screwed things up royally -- FOREVER. If I'd been thinking I would have
just taken out the sdcard (the 'extension' capability was actually
useless) and just reinstalled the apps that were damaged, but I was so
struck with joy at the prospect of NOT having to install/configure
everything I had that I just clicked YESYESYESOHYESYES... I am too
impatient to finger-type a long URL -- easier to just take the easy way,
whatever that is, or decide that those grapes were too sour anyway :-)
>
> [1] '/Android' is actually something like '/Interal storage/Android'
> (and possibly also something like '/<SD whatever>/Android', if you have
> a SD-card).

Ugh. The subdirectories I most use for manipulation of files are all
subs of / . Life is too short to type long shit.

--
Cheers, Bev
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea:
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining,
and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you
least expect it." --Gene Spafford (1992)

On 11/23/23 12:09 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-23 03:15, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 11/22/23 3:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
>>> computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
>>> only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
>>> permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.
>>
>> I was hoping that perhaps files sent BY the computer would be accessible
>> by any app on the phone, but that's looking increasingly unrealistic.  I
>> suspect -- without having tried -- that the first app used would lay
>> claim.  That would be OK for reading books (EBookDroid is about as good
>> as it gets, even though the guy hasn't updated it for 2 years), but
>> perhaps not for other files.
>
> I just tried with my EBookDroid and it can see all directories.
> Hamburger Menu, Local files.
>
> On the phone setup, Applications, EBookDroid, Permissions, I have
> (translating from Spanish, so wording can differ):
>
> Files and multimedia content
> Access during the las 24 hours · All files
>
> Check that one.
>
> Also on "Applications not used" disable "remove permissions and free space".
>
>
> If you want to see "all permissions", tap on the mini-hamburger menu top
> right.
>
>>> Or you can try, using the phone file manager, to save files in a
>>> commonly accessible folder in your phone, perhaps /downloads.
>>
>> Hrm.  Is that subdirectory actually common?  How can I tell except by
>> trial and error?
>
> It is standard, but name can vary. Files says it in Spanish for me.
>
>>
>>> Maybe your pdf reader can ask for permission to read some folders, or
>>> maybe all folders, on the phone.
>>
>> I would think that that was the default, at least for files that it was
>> built to handle, but apparently I was mistaken.
>
> No, when it runs the first time it asks Android for permissions, and may
> be able to access all PDF only on some directories.
>
> And Android by default will remove all permissions 2 or 3 months later
> if no usage.

A serious annoyance when you suddenly NEED to use that app in a hurry
and have to jump through an additional hoop. Is there any way to change
this? I just tried the Pixel's "community help" function, but don't
expect much -- certainly nothing from the suggestions. I have 200+
apps. I don't want to handle each one separately for obvious reasons :-(

In the All Settings / Supported book formats menu I just noticed second
from the bottom a "Offer this app to view any...". I switched it from
NO to YES. This seemed to solve the problem on my Pixel2 but not on
hubby's Lenovo tablet :-(

--
Cheers, Bev
"As a mortician I always tie the shoelaces of the dead together.
If there actually is a zombie apocalypse it will be hilarious."

On 2023-11-26 18:26, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 11/23/23 12:09 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-23 03:15, The Real Bev wrote:
>>> On 11/22/23 3:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-21 18:30, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can change your permission problem if you use a file manager on the
>>>> computer, not on the phone. If you use any app on the phone or tablet,
>>>> only that app will have access to the files, unless you give explicit
>>>> permission to some other app. This step I don't have clear.
>>>
>>> I was hoping that perhaps files sent BY the computer would be
>>> accessible by any app on the phone, but that's looking increasingly
>>> unrealistic.  I suspect -- without having tried -- that the first app
>>> used would lay claim.  That would be OK for reading books (EBookDroid
>>> is about as good as it gets, even though the guy hasn't updated it
>>> for 2 years), but perhaps not for other files.
>>
>> I just tried with my EBookDroid and it can see all directories.
>> Hamburger Menu, Local files.
>>
>> On the phone setup, Applications, EBookDroid, Permissions, I have
>> (translating from Spanish, so wording can differ):
>>
>>     Files and multimedia content
>>     Access during the las 24 hours · All files
>>
>> Check that one.
>>
>> Also on "Applications not used" disable "remove permissions and free
>> space".
>>
>>
>> If you want to see "all permissions", tap on the mini-hamburger menu top
>> right.
>>
>>>> Or you can try, using the phone file manager, to save files in a
>>>> commonly accessible folder in your phone, perhaps /downloads.
>>>
>>> Hrm.  Is that subdirectory actually common?  How can I tell except by
>>> trial and error?
>>
>> It is standard, but name can vary. Files says it in Spanish for me.
>>
>>>
>>>> Maybe your pdf reader can ask for permission to read some folders, or
>>>> maybe all folders, on the phone.
>>>
>>> I would think that that was the default, at least for files that it
>>> was built to handle, but apparently I was mistaken.
>>
>> No, when it runs the first time it asks Android for permissions, and may
>> be able to access all PDF only on some directories.
>>
>> And Android by default will remove all permissions 2 or 3 months later
>> if no usage.
>
> A serious annoyance when you suddenly NEED to use that app in a hurry
> and have to jump through an additional hoop.  Is there any way to change
> this?

No :-(

> I just tried the Pixel's "community help" function, but don't
> expect much -- certainly nothing from the suggestions.  I have 200+
> apps. I don't want to handle each one separately for obvious reasons :-(

You have to.

The next time you get the notice that says something like "I have
removed the permissions from these apps", tap there. Then review every
app in the list that you do want to keep using, and near the end of each
one there is a slider to disable "remove permissions". Do that.

Eventually, there will be a time when the notice keeps appearing (once a
week), but the apps it says it has treated will have the button saying
"disabled" and the permissions will be intact.

There is no other way :-(

Either that, or tap once a month on every application you use, as routine.

>
> In the All Settings / Supported book formats menu I just noticed second
> from the bottom a "Offer this app to view any...".  I switched it from
> NO to YES.  This seemed to solve the problem on my Pixel2 but not on
> hubby's Lenovo tablet :-(

Ah.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote

>> [1] '/Android' is actually something like '/Interal storage/Android'
>> (and possibly also something like '/<SD whatever>/Android', if you have
>> a SD-card).
>
> Ugh. The subdirectories I most use for manipulation of files are all
> subs of / . Life is too short to type long shit.

I'm probably better at computer system organization than almost anyone
here, The Real Bev, both on Android and on Windows (same with Linux but I
am no longer on Linux since I used it for dual booting for iPad copies).

Take it from me, nobody likes typing long filespecs; but you can't use the
slash partition on Android because it's read only (if you're unrooted).

So what you have is the "top level" of your internal & external sd cards.
<https://i.postimg.cc/yYWwgGmy/webdav12.jpg> sdcard filespec

Notice, like it or not, the "top level" of the two sdcards in that image is
a. Internal SDCARD = /storage/emulated/0
b. External SDCARD = /storage/0000-0001

Now isn't that stupid.
Stupid Android developers "could" have made the filespec more consistent.
a. /storage/emulated/0 (or just /storage/sd0 or something like that)
b. /storage/emulated/1 (or just /storage/sd1 or something like that)

I can see how one sdcard is "emulated" but does it really matter in a
filespec to specify that it's emulated? I think not. Maybe others do.

Note that every single one of my sdcards is "0000-0001" for good reason:
a. I can pop any sdcard used in one phone into another phone & it works!
b. I always know the exact name of the sdcard (it must be xxxx-xxxx).

What I do the instant I get a new sd card is I format it with the name:
0000-0001
Where otherwise the name is something random like DFBA-7AB2 (or whatever).

Moving onward in filespecs, both the internal & external sdcards get filled
up with Android pollution, so what I do to avoid all that pollution is I
create a top-level directory on the sdcard of "0000" for the internal
sdcard, and "0001" for the external sdcard (again, I do this for all
phones).
<https://i.postimg.cc/BvJdKWzt/webdav06.jpg> Both sdcards mounted

Then I put all the stuff I care about in logical subdirectories _below_
that 0000 or 0001 level, where those subdirectories are the same for all my
phones and sdcards, so - again - the data can be popped out of one phone
and popped into another - and it's very easy to back up & restore.

To help you & others organize your Android file system, I just wrote this:
*Tutorial: How to set up sdcards for re-use & backup/restore*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/66KlzoEd3IA>

Andy & others will appreciate the short title with few keywords.
--
One out of thousands of people bother to write tutorials for others to
benefit from - which is why the losers here frustrate me to no end
because they never can add any value - they're here for amusement only.