On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 6:26:03 AM UTC+9, MG wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 5:38:48 PM UTC-7, roger....@gmail.com wrote:
> > romid_maciie_0 .equ $FBBE ; 0
> ...that byte is the version of the Apple IIe Card firmware and is different among several versions of the "IIe Startup" application (2.2.2d1 is $03 at $FBBE).

Actually, "FBBE" appears to pertain exclusively to FIRMWARE (not the IIe Startup application SOFTWARE), because when I type the following two commands at a BASIC prompt (with the IIe Card installed in an LC575 motherboard)...

CALL -151
FBBE

....it says FBBE is 03 regardless of whether I use version 2.2.1 or 2.2.2d1 of the IIe Startup app. (I cannot run II Setup app versions older than 2.2.1 because when I try, it throws the error: "Unable to continue because of a fatal error. Error # 10019.")

Interesting aside: when I try the same commands on the Virtual ][ emulator, it says FBBE is 00.

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 2:23:53 AM UTC-7, james... wrote:
> On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 6:26:03 AM UTC+9, MG wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 5:38:48 PM UTC-7, roger... wrote:
> > > romid_maciie_0 .equ $FBBE ; 0
> > ...that byte is the version of the Apple IIe Card firmware and is different among several versions of the "IIe Startup" application (2.2.2d1 is $03 at $FBBE).
>
> Actually,

....

> "FBBE" appears to pertain exclusively to FIRMWARE (not the IIe Startup application SOFTWARE), because when I type the following two commands at a BASIC prompt (with the IIe Card installed in an LC575 motherboard)...
>
> CALL -151
> FBBE
>
> ...it says FBBE is 03 regardless of whether I use version 2.2.1 or 2.2.2d1 of the IIe Startup app. (I cannot run II Setup app versions older than 2.2.1 because when I try, it throws the error: "Unable to continue because of a fatal error. Error # 10019.")

I fail to see how any of that contradicts what I said. I literally said "that byte is the version of the Apple IIe Card firmware," which, BTW, is contained in the IIe Startup Application and loaded into the card when it starts - there is no actual ROM on the card. I said it was different among several versions of IIe Startup (as they vary on which firmware they ship), not unique to each version of IIe Startup.

> Interesting aside: when I try the same commands on the Virtual ][ emulator, it says FBBE is 00.

That's because Virtual II is emulating a normal Apple IIe, not a IIe Card, and the normal Apple IIe firmware has $FBBE=$00.

MG

P.S. if you wish to examine the Apple IIe Card firmware as contained in the IIe Startup application: http://apple2.guidero.us/doku.php/mg_notes/iie_card/iie_startup_resources

On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 1:14:46 AM UTC+9, MG wrote:
> I literally said "that byte is the version of the Apple IIe Card firmware," which, BTW, is contained in the IIe Startup Application and loaded into the card when it starts - there is no actual ROM on the card. I said it was different among several versions of IIe Startup (as they vary on which firmware they ship), not unique to each version of IIe Startup.
> > Interesting aside: when I try the same commands on the Virtual ][ emulator, it says FBBE is 00.
> That's because Virtual II is emulating a normal Apple IIe, not a IIe Card, and the normal Apple IIe firmware has $FBBE=$00.
>
> MG
>
> P.S. if you wish to examine the Apple IIe Card firmware as contained in the IIe Startup application: http://apple2.guidero.us/doku.php/mg_notes/iie_card/iie_startup_resources

Thank you for making time to kindly offer me a great explanation. I appreciate it very much.

So FBBE=00 applies to the original Apple IIe (enhanced or not, numerical keyboard version or older) as well as Virtual][, but FBBE=01/02/03 apply exclusively to the IIe Card?

Please know that I tested version 2.2.1 and 2.2.2d1 of the IIe Startup app, and FBBE = 03 on both app versions. Based on what you told me, that indicates 03 the IIe Card's hardware firmware revision. If FBBE numbers 01, 02 & 03 are exclusively used by the IIe Card, then such indicates Apple revised that card 3 times. However, I cannot find any information about what the differences would be between those 3 hardware/firmware revisions. Would you know?

Yes, I have read that "LC //e Card - IIe Startup Resources" web page you linked for me earlier this week, but it didn't shed light on what the actual hardware/firmware differences are between FBBE 01, 02 & 03.

To give some context to what promoted me to post a reply to your old 2017 post in the first place, I have been discussing issues with the Total Replay folks on their Github, and it was mentioned by Frank Milliron in the post below that he suspected IIe Startup versions 1.0 through 2.2.21d might have differing numbers that would allow him to differentiation between the various IIe Startup app versions on a code level...
https://github.com/a2-4am/4cade/issues/503#issuecomment-1266309227

You may find the GitHub discussion interesting, as I state my experience there about using the IIe Card in an overclocked Mystic (LC575) motherboard, citing how different versions of the IIe Startup app react to that particular Macintosh motherboard its 68040 CPU clock speed.

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 6:42:20 PM UTC-7, james...@ wrote:
> On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 1:14:46 AM UTC+9, MG wrote:
> > I literally said "that byte is the version of the Apple IIe Card firmware," which, BTW, is contained in the IIe Startup Application and loaded into the card when it starts - there is no actual ROM on the card. I said it was different among several versions of IIe Startup (as they vary on which firmware they ship), not unique to each version of IIe Startup.
> > > Interesting aside: when I try the same commands on the Virtual ][ emulator, it says FBBE is 00.
> > That's because Virtual II is emulating a normal Apple IIe, not a IIe Card, and the normal Apple IIe firmware has $FBBE=$00.
> >
> > MG
> >
> > P.S. if you wish to examine the Apple IIe Card firmware as contained in the IIe Startup application: http://apple2.guidero.us/doku.php/mg_notes/iie_card/iie_startup_resources
> Thank you for making time to kindly offer me a great explanation. I appreciate it very much.
>
> So FBBE=00 applies to the original Apple IIe (enhanced or not, numerical keyboard version or older) as well as Virtual][, but FBBE=01/02/03 apply exclusively to the IIe Card?

FBBE=00 also apples to old versions of IIe Startup, which may be hard to find.

> Please know that I tested version 2.2.1 and 2.2.2d1 of the IIe Startup app, and FBBE = 03 on both app versions. Based on what you told me, that indicates 03 the IIe Card's hardware firmware revision. If FBBE numbers 01, 02 & 03 are exclusively used by the IIe Card, then such indicates Apple revised that card 3 times. However, I cannot find any information about what the differences would be between those 3 hardware/firmware revisions. Would you know?

It is not a hardware version. As far as I know, there is only one production version of the IIe Card. The card contains a (possibly custom) 65C02, RAM, IWM, Gemini, and some support chips. In particular, the only ROM chip on the card is a small 256-byte PROM that identifies the card to the Macintosh, it does not contain any on-board firmware.

The card "firmware" is entirely contained in the IIe Startup application. It is loaded into the card when the application starts via address+data byte registers in the card's mapped memory on the Macintosh bus (very much like an Apple II "slinky" card). The card has 256K of memory, which is divided into four parts, one main RAM bank, two Aux RAM banks (the second of which probably no software knows about), and a fourth bank that becomes the "ROM" from the Apple IIe perspective.

The fourth bank is divided into four parts as well, one of which is the main firmware bank (AppleSoft + the monitor), two auxiliary firmware banks, and the slot ROMs.

Again, this is not actual firmware in ROM, it is RAM acting like ROM.

> Yes, I have read that "LC //e Card - IIe Startup Resources" web page you linked for me earlier this week, but it didn't shed light on what the actual hardware/firmware differences are between FBBE 01, 02 & 03.

FBBE does not indicate any hardware differences whatsoever. It comes from the "Monx" resource in the IIe Startup application. If you use an old enough version of IIe Startup, you will see a different value in FBBE. All of the "firmware" / "ROM" in the fourth bank of RAM I mentioned above is loaded into the card by the IIe Startup application.

>
> To give some context to what promoted me to post a reply to your old 2017 post in the first place, I have been discussing issues with the Total Replay folks on their Github, and it was mentioned by Frank Milliron in the post below that he suspected IIe Startup versions 1.0 through 2.2.21d might have differing numbers that would allow him to differentiation between the various IIe Startup app versions on a code level...
> https://github.com/a2-4am/4cade/issues/503#issuecomment-1266309227

Frank is correct, they do have different numbers at FBBE. As for any meaningful difference between the different versions, I haven't really investigated them or even map the IIe Startup -> FBBE numbers.

> You may find the GitHub discussion interesting, as I state my experience there about using the IIe Card in an overclocked Mystic (LC575) motherboard, citing how different versions of the IIe Startup app react to that particular Macintosh motherboard its 68040 CPU clock speed.

I run one in a Color Classic with a Mystic board, one in a Quadra 605, and one in an LC III. But I generally run 2.2.2d1 on all of them.

I will check out the discussion.

MG

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 6:50:06 AM UTC+9, MG wrote:
> ...The card has 256K of memory, which is divided into four parts, one main RAM bank, two Aux RAM banks (the second of which probably no software knows about), and a fourth bank that becomes the "ROM" from the Apple IIe perspective.
> The fourth bank is divided into four parts as well, one of which is the main firmware bank (AppleSoft + the monitor), two auxiliary firmware banks, and the slot ROMs.
> Again, this is not actual firmware in ROM, it is RAM acting like ROM.

Very interesting! I humbly appreciate your time in providing such an amazingly helpful information.

So 128K of the card's physical 256K is being used as the IIe's "one main RAM bank," while the remaining 128K is divided into 2 Aux RAM banks (56K each?) and the "ROM" bank (16K divided into 4 parts).

When I launch IIe Startup and display the IIe Option Panel, I see the virtual Memory Expansion Card in virtual slot 7 is set to 256K, which apparently uses the Mac's RAM. If I then enter the IIe environment and check, it says the total RAM is 384K. That 384K indicates 128K (physical RAM on the IIe Card) + 256K (memory expansion card, which uses the Mac's RAM) is being used..

> FBBE does not indicate any hardware differences whatsoever. It comes from the "Monx" resource in the IIe Startup application. If you use an old enough version of IIe Startup, you will see a different value in FBBE. All of the "firmware" / "ROM" in the fourth bank of RAM I mentioned above is loaded into the card by the IIe Startup application.
> Frank is correct, they do have different numbers at FBBE. As for any meaningful difference between the different versions, I haven't really investigated them or even map the IIe Startup -> FBBE numbers.
> I run one in a Color Classic with a Mystic board, one in a Quadra 605, and one in an LC III. But I generally run 2.2.2d1 on all of them.

Very interesting.

In that Github discussion, Frank mentions 7 different versions of the IIe Startup app, and yet it seems that only FBBE = 00, 01, 02 & 03 were used as identifiers. Since I know by my own testing that v.2.2.1 & v.2.2.2d1 share FBBE = 03, we then have the following (based on what Frank wrote on Github):

v1.0
$FBBE = 00

v2.0
$FBBE = 01?

v2.0.1
$FBBE = ?

v2.1
$FBBE = 02

v2.2
$FBBE = 02?

v2.2.1
$FBBE = 03

v2.2.2d1
$FBBE = 03

Separately from that...

I recently posted a YouTube video on my experience with the IIe Card installed in my overclocked Color Classic Mystic with the standard 60Hz VGA mod installed. Please understand that I have a lot of vintage Mac experience, but the IIe Card is my first use of an Apple II of any kind, so I am basically sharing that experience with others here:

https://youtu.be/iKF_zGshSWY?t=1973

At that particular timestamp in my video, I show how the IIe Card environment looks with the VGA mod. Instead of spanning the same horizontal width of the CRT as the Macintosh environment does when you have the stock 512x384 resolution, with the VGA mod, the IIe environment displays as 560x384 within the 640x480 VGA resolution. I don't see that as a problem, but I found it interesting. When you have the stock 512x384 resolution, the Color Classic can switch to 560x384 (spanning the same physical width on the CRT as the stock 512x384 resolution), but with the 60Hz VGA mod (I don't know if the 67Hz VGA mod will work), 560x384 is displayed within the 640x480. This means the IIe environment will display smaller when you have the VGA mod, as compared to a Color Classic with its stock resolution.

Anyway, if you continue watching you will see that I show how ProDOS icons vanish off the desktop when you enter the IIe environment (which is normal), and then I present a problem I encountered -- not being able to Format disks inserted into the Mac's internal Floppy drive (or even Write any data to it). I can Read data from it just fine though.

For some reason I don't fully understand, the solution is to use older version 2.2.1 of IIe Startup, which amazingly works on with the LC575 motherboard (even at a 40MHz overclock). That allows me to Format and Write data within the IIe environment, whereas v2.2.2d1 will not (at any Mac clock speed). But when I overclock the Mac's 68040 to 44MHz or higher, the version 2.2.1 app throws an error saying the IIe Card is damaged (it's not), and only 2.2.2.d1 will launch. Even with the 040 overclocked to 50MHz, the v2.2.2d1 app still launches and enters the IIe environment. The lone caveat with v.2.2.2d1, as shown in my video, is that you cannot (1) Format or (2) Write Data to a ProDOS formatted 3.5" floppy disk inserted into the Mac's internal floppy drive. Drives attached via Y-cable (in my case, using a FloppyEMU) still allow me to write data to them just fine, even with the Mystic motherboard highly overclocked.

On Fri, 7 Oct 2022, James Wages wrote:

> At that particular timestamp in my video, I show how the IIe Card
> environment looks with the VGA mod. Instead of spanning the same
> horizontal width of the CRT as the Macintosh environment does when you
> have the stock 512x384 resolution, with the VGA mod, the IIe environment
> displays as 560x384 within the 640x480 VGA resolution. I don't see that
> as a problem, but I found it interesting. When you have the stock
> 512x384 resolution, the Color Classic can switch to 560x384 (spanning
> the same physical width on the CRT as the stock 512x384 resolution), but
> with the 60Hz VGA mod (I don't know if the 67Hz VGA mod will work),
> 560x384 is displayed within the 640x480. This means the IIe environment
> will display smaller when you have the VGA mod, as compared to a Color
> Classic with its stock resolution.

I have a VGA dongle and it does the same thing.

-uso.

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 6:13:46 PM UTC+9, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> I have a VGA dongle and it does the same thing.

VGA "dongle"???

In my case, I have performed the VGA "mod" where you physically alter the Analog Board of a Color Classic, as shown in my VGA Mod video here:
https://youtu.be/q_CB7gQTy38?t=886

On Sat, 8 Oct 2022, James Wages wrote:

> On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 6:13:46 PM UTC+9, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> I have a VGA dongle and it does the same thing.
>
> VGA "dongle"???

It plugs in the monitor jack, you plug the monitor into that.

-uso.

On Friday, October 7, 2022 at 8:19:49 PM UTC-7, james... wrote:
> On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 6:50:06 AM UTC+9, MG wrote:
> > ...The card has 256K of memory, which is divided into four parts, one main RAM bank, two Aux RAM banks (the second of which probably no software knows about), and a fourth bank that becomes the "ROM" from the Apple IIe perspective.
> > The fourth bank is divided into four parts as well, one of which is the main firmware bank (AppleSoft + the monitor), two auxiliary firmware banks, and the slot ROMs.
> > Again, this is not actual firmware in ROM, it is RAM acting like ROM.
> Very interesting! I humbly appreciate your time in providing such an amazingly helpful information.
>
> So 128K of the card's physical 256K is being used as the IIe's "one main RAM bank," while the remaining 128K is divided into 2 Aux RAM banks (56K each?) and the "ROM" bank (16K divided into 4 parts).

64K is the main RAM, 64K is one aux memory bank just like a normal IIe, 64K is a second aux bank that can be selected via bit 4 of $C02B, and 64K is the "ROM."

To understand how it's addressed, we go back to the original Apple IIe. The Apple IIe memory map itself is somewhat complicated. In a stock machine with no expansion there is 64K of memory, which (up to) 56K is visible at any given time. The extra 4K is switchable into $D000-$DFFF, allowing access to the full 64K. This precedent was set by the Apple II/II+ (48K) with a 16K expansion. The memory can be selected for write-only (reads come from ROM), read-only, or read+write.

When a 64K memory card is inserted into the IIe Aux slot, it creates a second ("aux") 64K bank alongside the regular memory that may be switched in two large regions. Addressing what is switched in works the same as above. There are also some features that make it so you can write into the aux memory while reading the main memory.

The Apple IIe Card adds a second aux memory bank that can be switched in that is otherwise addressed the same way. I haven't figured out what it is used for though I suspect the AppleTalk stuff might buffer things there. A notable thing is that this extra bank of memory is not selected the same way that extra aux memory cards for a standard IIe are selected, so it's not compatible with software that understand "ramworks-style" memory.

> When I launch IIe Startup and display the IIe Option Panel, I see the virtual Memory Expansion Card in virtual slot 7 is set to 256K, which apparently uses the Mac's RAM. If I then enter the IIe environment and check, it says the total RAM is 384K. That 384K indicates 128K (physical RAM on the IIe Card) + 256K (memory expansion card, which uses the Mac's RAM) is being used.

That's a totally different type of expansion RAM, known as "slinky" memory. The memory is addressed by a 3-byte address register and a single-byte data register. Accessing the data register reads or writes to the byte pointed to by the address register, and then increments the address register. You can't execute program code out of this style of memory, and it normally functions as a RAM disk. The physical equivalent to this is the "Apple II Memory Expansion Card" and there were more-functional clones like the AE RAMFactor card. In fact, the RAMFactor card firmware can work with the emulated memory card and add the firmware features (but no battery backup). I did this as a proof-of-concept for modifying the IIe Card's "firmware": http://apple2.guidero.us/doku.php/projects/rf_lc

> > FBBE does not indicate any hardware differences whatsoever. It comes from the "Monx" resource in the IIe Startup application. If you use an old enough version of IIe Startup, you will see a different value in FBBE. All of the "firmware" / "ROM" in the fourth bank of RAM I mentioned above is loaded into the card by the IIe Startup application.
> > Frank is correct, they do have different numbers at FBBE. As for any meaningful difference between the different versions, I haven't really investigated them or even map the IIe Startup -> FBBE numbers.
> > I run one in a Color Classic with a Mystic board, one in a Quadra 605, and one in an LC III. But I generally run 2.2.2d1 on all of them.
> Very interesting.
>
> In that Github discussion, Frank mentions 7 different versions of the IIe Startup app, and yet it seems that only FBBE = 00, 01, 02 & 03 were used as identifiers. Since I know by my own testing that v.2.2.1 & v.2.2.2d1 share FBBE = 03, we then have the following (based on what Frank wrote on Github):
[snip]
> Separately from that...
>
> I recently posted a YouTube video on my experience with the IIe Card installed in my overclocked Color Classic Mystic with the standard 60Hz VGA mod installed. Please understand that I have a lot of vintage Mac experience, but the IIe Card is my first use of an Apple II of any kind, so I am basically sharing that experience with others here:
>
> https://youtu.be/iKF_zGshSWY?t=1973
>
> At that particular timestamp in my video, I show how the IIe Card environment looks with the VGA mod. Instead of spanning the same horizontal width of the CRT as the Macintosh environment does when you have the stock 512x384 resolution, with the VGA mod, the IIe environment displays as 560x384 within the 640x480 VGA resolution. I don't see that as a problem, but I found it interesting. When you have the stock 512x384 resolution, the Color Classic can switch to 560x384 (spanning the same physical width on the CRT as the stock 512x384 resolution), but with the 60Hz VGA mod (I don't know if the 67Hz VGA mod will work), 560x384 is displayed within the 640x480. This means the IIe environment will display smaller when you have the VGA mod, as compared to a Color Classic with its stock resolution.

This is normal. The Macintosh will switch to the 560x384 resolution if, and only if, the machine is capable of displaying 512x384. Furthermore, if a resolution larger than that is selected, on some Macs that are otherwise capable of 512x384, you will get 560x384 centered in that display rather than the native resolution. This is due to how the circuitry is wired in the machine. The IIe Card contains a crystal that generates the horizontal frequency for that resolution and switches it in to the video generation circuit. The machine has to support that.

> Anyway, if you continue watching you will see that I show how ProDOS icons vanish off the desktop when you enter the IIe environment (which is normal), and then I present a problem I encountered -- not being able to Format disks inserted into the Mac's internal Floppy drive (or even Write any data to it). I can Read data from it just fine though.

Hmm, I don't recall running in to that. I don't have any of my machines set up right now to test, unfortunately. I keep hoping someone comes along that is an expert on the Mac side who wants to reverse-engineer the 68K code in the IIe Startup application, that would increase the overall level of understanding of the card, probably let me complete the picture for the IIe side of the card, and maybe even allow the IIe Startup application to be patched or outright replaced. All of the IIe-side code that I've looked at is the same between 2.2.1 and 2.2.2d1, so the blame for disk problems is likely in the 68K code.

> For some reason I don't fully understand, the solution is to use older version 2.2.1 of IIe Startup, which amazingly works on with the LC575 motherboard (even at a 40MHz overclock). That allows me to Format and Write data within the IIe environment, whereas v2.2.2d1 will not (at any Mac clock speed). But when I overclock the Mac's 68040 to 44MHz or higher, the version 2.2.1 app throws an error saying the IIe Card is damaged (it's not), and only 2.2.2.d1 will launch. Even with the 040 overclocked to 50MHz, the v2.2.2d1 app still launches and enters the IIe environment. The lone caveat with v.2.2.2d1, as shown in my video, is that you cannot (1) Format or (2) Write Data to a ProDOS formatted 3.5" floppy disk inserted into the Mac's internal floppy drive. Drives attached via Y-cable (in my case, using a FloppyEMU) still allow me to write data to them just fine, even with the Mystic motherboard highly overclocked.

It doesn't surprise me that you eventually run in to trouble at higher speeds, as this will mess with timing on the bus and in the overall system. It's possible that at higher clock speeds the electrical interface becomes a problem or the software just doesn't wait long enough for the card to finish doing things.

MG

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 12:39:22 PM UTC-7, MG wrote:
> To understand how it's addressed, we go back to the original Apple IIe. The Apple IIe memory map itself is somewhat complicated. In a stock machine with no expansion there is 64K of memory, which (up to) 56K is visible at any given time. The extra 4K is switchable into $D000-$DFFF, allowing access to the full 64K. This precedent was set by the Apple II/II+ (48K) with a 16K expansion. The memory can be selected for write-only (reads come from ROM), read-only, or read+write.

Bah, up to 60K, not 56K :-)

MG

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 9:09:39 AM UTC+9, MG wrote:
> On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 12:39:22 PM UTC-7, MG wrote:
> > To understand how it's addressed, we go back to the original Apple IIe. The Apple IIe memory map itself is somewhat complicated. In a stock machine with no expansion there is 64K of memory, which (up to) 56K is visible at any given time. The extra 4K is switchable into $D000-$DFFF, allowing access to the full 64K. This precedent was set by the Apple II/II+ (48K) with a 16K expansion. The memory can be selected for write-only (reads come from ROM), read-only, or read+write.
> Bah, up to 60K, not 56K :-)
>
> MG

Thank you for the detailed information. Perhaps you could assist me in understanding something that is maybe memory related or maybe just a bug. I don't know which. Here is a 3.5" 800K HDV image that contains A2 Desktop and BeagleWrite:

https://kiramek.com/21test95/A2DeskTop-1.2-alpha48-en_800k.hdv.zip

I can use the emulator Virtual ][ on my modern Mac running MacOS Monterey to boot a IIe from this image just fine. (I use a virtual SCSI II card in slot 7, then add OmniDisk, then load the HDV into that virtual drive.) After booting, if I then open the Beaglewrite folder and then open Bw.System, BeagleWrite launches just fine and I can use it normally. No issues with the emulator at all,

However, if I put that same HDV image on my FloppyEMU (with the AppleII Firmware installed), connect the FloppyEMU to the Y-cable of my IIe Card (installed on an LC575 motherboard), then boot the Mac and launch IIe Startup v.2.2.2d1, the click on SmartPort, drag the icon from Spare Disk Drives into Slot 5 Drive 1, then click the Restart IIe button, I can boot into A2D just fine. If I then try to launch Bw.System, it starts to load. I see the splash screen, and then is says:

Ram drive detected in slot 7 drive 1.
OK to load BeagleWrite into it?
OK Cancel

(The Virtual ][ emulator doesn't show me that for some reason.)
Sometimes it will freeze right there. But even when it doesn't freeze there, regardless of whether I click OK or Cancel, it continues to load but then freezes just as the new word processor page displays. There is no flashing I-beam cursor and mouse and keyboard are frozen. It's totally locked up..

I've repeated this multiple times running the IIe environment at 1MHz, 1.9MHz, with the virtual Clock card removed from Slot 2, with more memory all the way up to 1MB -- all to no avail.

If I return to the Macintosh environment, quite IIe Startup, then use IIe Startup v.2.2.1 instead to try the same exact thing, BeagleWrite opens without freezing.

I am doing this with the Mac's CPU set to 40MHz, which allows v.2.2.1 of the IIe Startup app to load. At higher CPU clock frequencies v.2.2.1 will never launch. But even at 40MHz, it takes maybe 4 or 5 launch attempts before IIe Startup v.2.2.1 fully loads without that "IIe card is damaged" error dialog. IIe Startup v.2.2.2d1 always loads perfectly with no error dialog ever, regardless of the Mac's CPU clock frequency; but as I said, v.2.2.2d1 has some quirks. I cannot Format or Write to 800K ProDOS disk inserted into he Mac's internal floppy drive, and I now see that I cannot use BeagleWrite because of the aforementioned freeze.

Maybe this has nothing to do with memory and is just a bug in v.2.2.2d1. Not sure. Just wanted to report my experience as I continue to test the IIe Card in this Color Classic Mystic.

ISTR there was a bug in the Apple II Desktop involving hitting a
softswitch that only actually did anything on the Mac card.

-uso.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 7:00:24 AM UTC-7, james...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ram drive detected in slot 7 drive 1.
> OK to load BeagleWrite into it?
> OK Cancel

So... do you have a RAM drive (memory expansion card) configured in your Slot 7? If not... sounds like a BW bug. If so, try disabling it, and see if the problem still occurs.

> (The Virtual ][ emulator doesn't show me that for some reason.)

Virtual ][ doesn't support "Slinky" memory expansion cards, so you presumably don't have a RAM drive in Slot 7.

> Sometimes it will freeze right there. But even when it doesn't freeze there, regardless of whether I click OK or Cancel, it continues to load but then freezes just as the new word processor page displays. There is no flashing I-beam cursor and mouse and keyboard are frozen. It's totally locked up.

It would be interesting to drop to BASIC.SYSTEM and see if Slot 7 Drive 1 behaves there, or if this is a red herring. Put BASIC.SYSTEM on your disk image, invoke it, and at the ] prompt type: CAT,S7,D1

It could also be interesting to see what devices ProDOS thinks you have. Try:

CALL-151 (at the ] prompt)
BF10.BF3F (at the * prompt)

BF10..BF2F are the device driver entry points (slots 0...7 drive 1, followed by slots 0...7 drive 2).
BF31 is the number of devices, followed by the device unit numbers.
If you have a Slot 7 Drive 1 device then I'd expect BF1E /BF1F to have $C7xx and there to be a $7x device unit number in the list.

FWIW, I configured a //e system in MAME (using Ample) with a memory expansion card in Slot 7, booted into A2D, launched BW, got the prompt about copying to RAM, selected OK, and everything seemed fine.

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 11:37:07 AM UTC-7, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> ISTR there was a bug in the Apple II Desktop involving hitting a
> softswitch that only actually did anything on the Mac card.

We fixed that a while ago. It's unclear from the repro steps given if A2D is necessary or a distraction. Glad to hear someone's trying alpha48 though!

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 3:37:07 AM UTC+9, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> ISTR there was a bug in the Apple II Desktop involving hitting a
> softswitch that only actually did anything on the Mac card.

I don't know what a "softswitch" is, but as I said in my previous message, IIe Setup version 2.2.2d1 (a Macintosh app that loads the IIe environment when the IIe Card is installed) has the freezing issue when trying to launch BeageWrite, but the slightly older version 2.2.1 does not have the BeagleWrite freezing issue.

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 12:09:39 PM UTC+9, inexora...@gmail.com wrote:
> So... do you have a RAM drive (memory expansion card) configured in your Slot 7? If not... sounds like a BW bug. If so, try disabling it, and see if the problem still occurs.

In Virtual ][ on my modern Mac, I have a virtual SCSI II card in Slot 7, which has two OmniDisks setup. Virtual ][ by default puts a 64K virtual Ramworks card into the AUX slot.

On my Color Classic Mystic with IIe Card installed, I have the IIe Option Panel configured with a virtual memory card in slot 7 (the default slot for that, which uses the Mac's RAM). Slot 5 is used by SmartPort, where I have my Omnidisks setup to boot from the aforementioned 800K disks and also ProDOS hard drive images. I removed both the Clock card in slot 2 and that virtual memory card in slot 7 and tried it again, but it still freezes.

I confirmed just now that it absolutely is not an A2D-related bug because if I download the following bootable 800K disk image of BeagleWrite only (no A2D files at all) and try it with IIe Setup v.2.2.2d1 on my Color Classic Mystic, it too shows the freezing problem:
https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=9171

But when I test BeagleWrite with the slightly older v.2.2.1 of IIe Setup, there is no freeze.

So why not just use v.2.2.1 instead of v.2.2.2d1? Because only v.2.2.2d1 can be used when the Color Classic's 68040 CPU is overclocked higher than 40MHz. Another reason is because it's hard to get v.2.2.1 to load without an error dialog even at lower Mac CPU clock speeds, due to some bug, which I guess Apple tried to fix in v.2.2.2d1.

> It would be interesting to drop to BASIC.SYSTEM and see if Slot 7 Drive 1 behaves there, or if this is a red herring. Put BASIC.SYSTEM on your disk image, invoke it, and at the ] prompt type: CAT,S7,D1

First, please note that the IIe Option Panel (which is used by the IIe Card installed in a vintage Mac), only allows you to put the SmartPort card in slot 5, not any other slot.

Next, if I put the virtual RAMcard back into slot 7 on my Color Classic and then boot from my A2D 800K OmniDisk (which is using Slot 5), I then get to the Desktop and launch Basic.System. Then at the "]" prompt, I type:

CAT,S7,D1

Which then says:

/RAM7
NAME TYPE BLOCKS MODIFIED
DESKTOP DIR 1 10-OCT-22
BLOCKS FREE: 1543 BLOCKS USED: 505

I then typed the following at the "]" prompt:

CALL-151

It then showed me an asterisk prompt, at which I then typed:

BF10.BF3F

Which it then response with:

BF10- A3 DE A3 DE A3 DE A3 DE
BF18- A3 DE 16 C5 00 D0 4E C7
BF20- A3 DE A3 DE A3 DE 00 FF
BF28- A3 DE 16 C5 00 D0 A3 DE
BF30- 70 05 E0 60 DB 5B 74 BF
BF38- 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

At the time I rand that test, the IIe Option Panel was setup as follows:

Slot1: empty
Slot2: clock card
Slot3: display (operated by the Mac and cannot be changed)
Slot4: mouse card
Slot5: SmartPort card (cannot be moved to any other slot)
Slot6: 5.25" drive card
Slot7: RAM card (with 1024K assigned)

Hi MG,

I see that you have put a lot of effort into trying to understand the inner
workings of the Mac LC //e card.

Are you aware of any public resource that identifies issues with the
software?
I imagine that Apple probably has an internal bug list that we are unlikely
to see.
If someone was to take a look at the source with the view to improve it,
they would undoubtedly appreciate a list of issues to consider fixing.

Eg:
I know that 2.2.2d1 has a problem with the DGR colors.
Elsewhere in this NORMFAST thread there was a disk access issue declared.

In the absence of other candidates, perhaps you would consider hosting such
a list alongside your other resources?

Regards
Andrew

On Sunday, October 9, 2022 at 7:00:24 AM UTC-7, james...@gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe this has nothing to do with memory and is just a bug in v.2.2.2d1. Not sure. Just wanted to report my experience as I continue to test the IIe Card in this Color Classic Mystic.

v2.2.2d1 specifically addresses issues with the LC 550/575 systems. https://archive.org/details/IIe_Startup_Vers_2.2.2d1_Desc/mode/1up. That's probably why you are not getting the the "damaged" message.

It's entirely possible that it introduces new bugs. As a developer preview it seems likely that other code may have snuck in besides the 550/575 fix.

MG

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 6:04:23 AM UTC-7, Andrew Roughan wrote:
> Hi MG,
>
> I see that you have put a lot of effort into trying to understand the inner
> workings of the Mac LC //e card.
>
> Are you aware of any public resource that identifies issues with the
> software?

I have not seen any. I have compiled a list of some anomalies vs a standard IIe, some of which are "as designed", the only "real" bug I've capture there is the DGR palette issue you mention below.

http://apple2.guidero.us/doku.php/mg_notes/iie_card/problem_software

> I imagine that Apple probably has an internal bug list that we are unlikely
> to see.
> If someone was to take a look at the source with the view to improve it,
> they would undoubtedly appreciate a list of issues to consider fixing.
>
> Eg:
> I know that 2.2.2d1 has a problem with the DGR colors.

I believe this problem exists on all versions, but I have not verified that.. As I've mentioned, it'd wonderful to have someone who is intimately familiar with 68K Mac architecture and reverse engineering take on the Mac side of the system.

> Elsewhere in this NORMFAST thread there was a disk access issue declared.

I would like to see some more data on that one. The hardware configuration in that case is non-standard, it will be interesting to see if this is consistently reproducible across models, especially standard vs non-standard configuration. Perhaps this will serve as motivation to get my office cleaned up so I can get an LC set up again.

> In the absence of other candidates, perhaps you would consider hosting such
> a list alongside your other resources?

I'm not opposed to doing so, it is probably best done as a GitHub project, even if there is no code involved (yet). That way issues can simply be logged and commented on by anyone.

MG