This might be a little OT.

There is at present a series of programmes on BBC TV entitled "The
secret genius of modern life", where modern devices are looked at By
Prof Hannah Fry. This week it was the smartphone. She reviews its
history and development, such as the introduction of cells,
touchscreens, and digital cameras. Towards the end of the programme, the
OS is examined. UK viewers can find it here:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001sql0/the-secret-genius-of-modern-life-series-2-3-smartphone>

For this, starting at around 43.45, Fry talks to Dr Sandra Siby (an IT
expert). But the really interesting bit starts around 45.33, where Fry
gives Siby access to her smartphone, and presumably its logs (I don't
know if it is an iPhone or Android phone, and it probably doesn't
matter, as she is seen using several different phones during the
programme, including Samsungs).

Fry is very surprised when the logs reveal where she's been, what wi-fi
her phone has connected to, and what cellphone towers it has connected
to, effectively showing her detailed movements anywhere in the world.
I've no doubt it also logs every app she uses (and for what purpose),
and what sites she's browsed. Anyone know what Siby was using to examine
the logs? Would it be via a wi-fi or Bluetooth connection?

Unfortunately, there's no transcript available, but it would have made
interesting reading for those outside the UK who can't access iPlayer.
No doubt those logs are accessible by Google, Apple, and the phone
manufacturers.

--

Jeff

"Jeff Layman" <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote

| Fry is very surprised when the logs reveal where she's been, what wi-fi
| her phone has connected to, and what cellphone towers it has connected
| to, effectively showing her detailed movements anywhere in the world.

There was a journalist some years ago who documented
a plain text file on an iPhone that stored several weeks
worth of location data, which he then mapped out on a map to
show how revealing it was.

But that's just the beginning. Google and Apple are arguably
the most sleazeball of all tech companies. Both spy on you.
Additionally, many app developers make their money by selling
you location and other data to data wholesalers. Many apps won't
work, of course, without location. So if you're going to use a
cellphone and keep it turned on, you should assume you're
wearing a tracking collar. If you use apps as well then you should
assume that "every Tom, Dick and Harry" knows where you've
been. (I hope you used a condom. :)

All of this goes even further. Google now partners with credit
card companies and has talked about partnering with retail stores.

One of the most recent revelations along these lines was Kochava:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/11/data-brokers-staggering-sale-of-sensitive-info-exposed-in-unsealed-ftc-filing/

Then there's gov't. For example, there was a multiple murder of
college students in Idaho awhile back. The cops obtained records
of the suspect's cellphone. They had a record of him parking near
the house several times in the weeks leading up to the murders.
They had a record of him turning off his cellphone for a couple
of hours that coincided with the murders.

Long story short, everyone knows your data who wants it. They
don't need to search your cellphone. It's shocking, but it really
shouldn't be. Anyone who uses apps because they don't know
how to read a map, to find friends, to get restaurant recommendations,
etc, is asking sleazy, for-profit companies to track their location.

To answer your question, no, I don't know where location logs are
kept. I never leave my cellphone turned on except when I make a call.
If you care about this then you shouldn't either. If you don't care,
or if you want to use Waze, then having the log locations won't
do you any good because you're ASKING THEM to spy on you.

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote

> This might be a little OT.

Hi Jeff,

Every time you post a question, I learn a lot from the answer I give you.
See these screenshots I just made to answer your questions for you.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gh06dWgb/privacy01.jpg> Saved Map searches
<https://i.postimg.cc/zDd6RLfX/privacy02.jpg> Saved Wi-Fi networks
<https://i.postimg.cc/HLgym4FS/privacy03.jpg> GMS indexes a lot of data
<https://i.postimg.cc/L6QDm7Vx/privacy04.jpg> GMS mobile apps used
<https://i.postimg.cc/cJLdfv3x/privacy05.jpg> GMS music files played
<https://i.postimg.cc/MK54VdmB/privacy06.jpg> GMS music groups used
<https://i.postimg.cc/bYDN6SBd/privacy07.jpg> GMS music recordings made
<https://i.postimg.cc/brQ77PnV/privacy08.jpg> GMS all your contacts
<https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers

Do you see similar information on your Android phone?

> Fry is very surprised when the logs reveal where she's been

If you have Developer options on, look at what Firebase reveals.
Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Maps ->
<https://i.postimg.cc/nhCCVxmB/mapsloctrack03.jpg> Every map search!

But if you're smart about setting up Android, there's nothing left!
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gh06dWgb/privacy01.jpg>

> what wi-fi her phone has connected to...

Settings > Connections > Wi-Fi > 3dots > Advanced Settings > Manage Networks > Select All > Delete

This is a tough one to keep clean because you have to have the
"autoconnect turned off" in order to stay out of Google's DB.

You need to make a shortcut to it I guess, to periodically clean it.
<https://i.postimg.cc/zDd6RLfX/privacy02.jpg>

But the problem is you have to make a choice on privacy:
a. If you leave autoconnect off, you won't shout it out
b. But if you do that, you need to remember the Wi-Fi network
c. Or, you could type it in manually every time (nobody wants that)

> and what cellphone towers it has connected
> to, effectively showing her detailed movements anywhere in the world.

I wasn't sure where the log of all cell towers connected to was, so I ran
an app which told me - but I don't know how to get it from the settings.
*NetMonster* by Michal Mrocek (free,adfree)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cz.mroczis.netmonster>

It's pretty scary.
Apparently it accessed a log of every cell tower you've connected to.
But I'm not really sure as there are a lot of numbers involved.

You can list by "all cells", "all operators" & "all technologies".
And you can export the cell tower log and the GPS location of each.

Here's what that cell-tower connection log looks like (back to September).
<https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers
Note: I wasn't sure what to blank out as there are many numbers.

Andy or Frank - you're the only ones who might know where the logs are.
Do you know where Android stores all the cell tower connection logs?

> I've no doubt it also logs every app she uses (and for what purpose),
> and what sites she's browsed. Anyone know what Siby was using to examine
> the logs? Would it be via a wi-fi or Bluetooth connection?

The Google Firebase logs a lot. Tons. Yes, app usage also. Take a look.
Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Google Play Services -> Mobile Application

If what's in that database doesn't scare you, nothing else will.
> Unfortunately, there's no transcript available, but it would have made
> interesting reading for those outside the UK who can't access iPlayer.
> No doubt those logs are accessible by Google, Apple, and the phone
> manufacturers.

Look at all this data from just clicking a few Android settings.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gh06dWgb/privacy01.jpg> Saved Map searches
<https://i.postimg.cc/zDd6RLfX/privacy02.jpg> Saved Wi-Fi networks
<https://i.postimg.cc/HLgym4FS/privacy03.jpg> GMS indexes a lot of data
<https://i.postimg.cc/L6QDm7Vx/privacy04.jpg> GMS mobile apps used
<https://i.postimg.cc/cJLdfv3x/privacy05.jpg> GMS music files played
<https://i.postimg.cc/MK54VdmB/privacy06.jpg> GMS music groups used
<https://i.postimg.cc/bYDN6SBd/privacy07.jpg> GMS music recordings made
<https://i.postimg.cc/brQ77PnV/privacy08.jpg> GMS all your contacts
<https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers

That's only scratching the surface.
What do you see on your phone when you do the same things I just did?
--
Usenet is a means to meet people who know more than you do.

On 04/12/2023 05:11, Wally J wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote
>
>> This might be a little OT.
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> Every time you post a question, I learn a lot from the answer I give you.

I like to keep you busy, WJ! :-)

> See these screenshots I just made to answer your questions for you.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Gh06dWgb/privacy01.jpg> Saved Map searches
> <https://i.postimg.cc/zDd6RLfX/privacy02.jpg> Saved Wi-Fi networks
> <https://i.postimg.cc/HLgym4FS/privacy03.jpg> GMS indexes a lot of data
> <https://i.postimg.cc/L6QDm7Vx/privacy04.jpg> GMS mobile apps used
> <https://i.postimg.cc/cJLdfv3x/privacy05.jpg> GMS music files played
> <https://i.postimg.cc/MK54VdmB/privacy06.jpg> GMS music groups used
> <https://i.postimg.cc/bYDN6SBd/privacy07.jpg> GMS music recordings made
> <https://i.postimg.cc/brQ77PnV/privacy08.jpg> GMS all your contacts
> <https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers
>
> Do you see similar information on your Android phone?

Mainly not, though when Developer mode is activated I can see the
Firebase info. As I have most things shut off, the only info Firebase
has are for Google Play Services and also for Messages. Also, I think
that Xiaomi locks things down and controls them even more than Google does.

>> Fry is very surprised when the logs reveal where she's been
>
> If you have Developer options on, look at what Firebase reveals.
> Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Maps ->
> <https://i.postimg.cc/nhCCVxmB/mapsloctrack03.jpg> Every map search!

Yep, see above concerning Firebase. What does SEND UPDATE-INDEX mean? Is
that info sent to Google?

> But if you're smart about setting up Android, there's nothing left!
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Gh06dWgb/privacy01.jpg>
>
>> what wi-fi her phone has connected to...
>
> Settings > Connections > Wi-Fi > 3dots > Advanced Settings > Manage Networks > Select All > Delete
>
> This is a tough one to keep clean because you have to have the
> "autoconnect turned off" in order to stay out of Google's DB.

I have Wi-Fi turned off all the time, because my mobile data allowance
is more than enough for my needs. As I need a mobile (cell) connection
for phone calls anyway, it has to be on all the time. At least by
turning unnecessary wi-fi off I'm not tracked by that.

> You need to make a shortcut to it I guess, to periodically clean it.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/zDd6RLfX/privacy02.jpg>
>
> But the problem is you have to make a choice on privacy:
> a. If you leave autoconnect off, you won't shout it out
> b. But if you do that, you need to remember the Wi-Fi network
> c. Or, you could type it in manually every time (nobody wants that)
>
>> and what cellphone towers it has connected
>> to, effectively showing her detailed movements anywhere in the world.
>
> I wasn't sure where the log of all cell towers connected to was, so I ran
> an app which told me - but I don't know how to get it from the settings.
> *NetMonster* by Michal Mrocek (free,adfree)
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cz.mroczis.netmonster>
>
> It's pretty scary.
> Apparently it accessed a log of every cell tower you've connected to.
> But I'm not really sure as there are a lot of numbers involved.
>
> You can list by "all cells", "all operators" & "all technologies".
> And you can export the cell tower log and the GPS location of each.
>
> Here's what that cell-tower connection log looks like (back to September).
> <https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers
> Note: I wasn't sure what to blank out as there are many numbers.

I can't match that, but here are a couple of screenshots from the
programme I mentioned:
<https://ibb.co/QXkxSnP>
Screenshot1 shows what the OS is reporting every time it talks to a tower.
<https://ibb.co/MDg65wv>
Screenshot2 shows a small part of the wi-fi access sites the OS has
recorded.

> Andy or Frank - you're the only ones who might know where the logs are.
> Do you know where Android stores all the cell tower connection logs?
>
>> I've no doubt it also logs every app she uses (and for what purpose),
>> and what sites she's browsed. Anyone know what Siby was using to examine
>> the logs? Would it be via a wi-fi or Bluetooth connection?
>
> The Google Firebase logs a lot. Tons. Yes, app usage also. Take a look.
> Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Google Play Services -> Mobile Application
>
> If what's in that database doesn't scare you, nothing else will.

Very scary! I notice in Firebase that there's a "System Tracing" which
records "system activity for later analysis to improve performance". Do
you see that in you options? I wonder what that does.

>> Unfortunately, there's no transcript available, but it would have made
>> interesting reading for those outside the UK who can't access iPlayer.
>> No doubt those logs are accessible by Google, Apple, and the phone
>> manufacturers.
>
> Look at all this data from just clicking a few Android settings.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/Gh06dWgb/privacy01.jpg> Saved Map searches
> <https://i.postimg.cc/zDd6RLfX/privacy02.jpg> Saved Wi-Fi networks
> <https://i.postimg.cc/HLgym4FS/privacy03.jpg> GMS indexes a lot of data
> <https://i.postimg.cc/L6QDm7Vx/privacy04.jpg> GMS mobile apps used
> <https://i.postimg.cc/cJLdfv3x/privacy05.jpg> GMS music files played
> <https://i.postimg.cc/MK54VdmB/privacy06.jpg> GMS music groups used
> <https://i.postimg.cc/bYDN6SBd/privacy07.jpg> GMS music recordings made
> <https://i.postimg.cc/brQ77PnV/privacy08.jpg> GMS all your contacts
> <https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers
>
> That's only scratching the surface.
> What do you see on your phone when you do the same things I just did?

I think we all knew what Google does with *our* private information, but
it's interesting to see it demonstrated.

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote

>> Do you see similar information on your Android phone?
>
> Mainly not, though when Developer mode is activated I can see the
> Firebase info. As I have most things shut off, the only info Firebase
> has are for Google Play Services and also for Messages. Also, I think
> that Xiaomi locks things down and controls them even more than Google does.

I'm surprised that you have so little, as I've certainly turned off
everything that I could find and still there's stuff in Firebase.

For others lurking, you have to do this to see what we're seeing:
1. Turn on Developer options
2. Then go to Settings > Google > Firebase

Be prepared to be shocked.

>> If you have Developer options on, look at what Firebase reveals.
>> Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Maps ->
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/nhCCVxmB/mapsloctrack03.jpg> Every map search!
>
> Yep, see above concerning Firebase. What does SEND UPDATE-INDEX mean?
> Is that info sent to Google?

1. I have no idea what "send update index" does.
2. Worse... I see that some are _automatically_ sent!

Andy... do you have any idea where these Firebase updates are going?
>> This is a tough one to keep clean because you have to have the
>> "autoconnect turned off" in order to stay out of Google's DB.
>
> I have Wi-Fi turned off all the time, because my mobile data allowance
> is more than enough for my needs. As I need a mobile (cell) connection
> for phone calls anyway, it has to be on all the time. At least by
> turning unnecessary wi-fi off I'm not tracked by that.

Oh yes you are being tracked by Wi-Fi even when you have it off.
In multiple ways. From your home even. It's really complicated so it would
take too long to explain it to you here.

Suffice to summarize:
A. Turning off wi-fi (or bluetooth) does NOT stop Android
from _automatically_ uploading your Wi-Fi (or Bluetooth) location data.
B. Worse, even without an Android (or Apple) phone,
your Wi-Fi location data is constantly _automatically_ being uploaded
whether you know it or not.

You can do something about it. But you have to know about it first.
That's what I was alluding to when I said "this is a tough one".
>> Here's what that cell-tower connection log looks like (back to September).
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers
>
> I can't match that, but here are a couple of screenshots from the
> programme I mentioned:
> <https://ibb.co/QXkxSnP>

Yeah. That's the same as this screenshot, only put into a graph for you.
<https://i.postimg.cc/L6QDm7Vx/privacy04.jpg> GMS mobile apps used

> Screenshot1 shows what the OS is reporting every time it talks to a tower.

Can you doublecheck that?
I did not see you give a screenshot of tower cells.
Just apps & wi-fi access points.

> <https://ibb.co/MDg65wv>
> Screenshot2 shows a small part of the wi-fi access sites the OS has
> recorded.

Yeah. That's the same as this screenshot, only put into a listing.
<https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers

What we need is a way to show all the previous cell tower connections
that just digs up the log from which that screenshot above came from.

>> Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Google Play Services -> Mobile Application
>> If what's in that database doesn't scare you, nothing else will.
>
> Very scary! I notice in Firebase that there's a "System Tracing" which
> records "system activity for later analysis to improve performance". Do
> you see that in you options? I wonder what that does.

I don't see anything about "System Tracing" here...
Settings > Google -> Firebase ->

> I think we all knew what Google does with *our* private information, but
> it's interesting to see it demonstrated.

I learned from adding value to your information that the cell tower
connections are being saved, so I opened a separate thread on that.
*Firebase? Where is your Android cell tower connections log?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/iT4i40Ze5QY>

If anyone knows how to find the cell-tower connections db, let me know.
--
Usenet is a way to meet people who help you learn more about Android.

On 04/12/2023 19:20, Wally J wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote
>
>>> Do you see similar information on your Android phone?
>>
>> Mainly not, though when Developer mode is activated I can see the
>> Firebase info. As I have most things shut off, the only info Firebase
>> has are for Google Play Services and also for Messages. Also, I think
>> that Xiaomi locks things down and controls them even more than Google does.
>
> I'm surprised that you have so little, as I've certainly turned off
> everything that I could find and still there's stuff in Firebase.

I use my cellphone for as little as possible. I use browsers (FF,
Vivaldi, Brave), FairEmail, Messages, and a few apps (Netweather radar),
Newsgroup, and Puzzles. No banking, no maps, no buying. Perhaps that's
why in part there's little in Firebase.

> For others lurking, you have to do this to see what we're seeing:
> 1. Turn on Developer options
> 2. Then go to Settings > Google > Firebase
>
> Be prepared to be shocked.
>
>
>>> If you have Developer options on, look at what Firebase reveals.
>>> Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Maps ->
>>> <https://i.postimg.cc/nhCCVxmB/mapsloctrack03.jpg> Every map search!
>>
>> Yep, see above concerning Firebase. What does SEND UPDATE-INDEX mean?
>> Is that info sent to Google?
>
> 1. I have no idea what "send update index" does.
> 2. Worse... I see that some are _automatically_ sent!
>
> Andy... do you have any idea where these Firebase updates are going?
>
>>> This is a tough one to keep clean because you have to have the
>>> "autoconnect turned off" in order to stay out of Google's DB.
>>
>> I have Wi-Fi turned off all the time, because my mobile data allowance
>> is more than enough for my needs. As I need a mobile (cell) connection
>> for phone calls anyway, it has to be on all the time. At least by
>> turning unnecessary wi-fi off I'm not tracked by that.
>
> Oh yes you are being tracked by Wi-Fi even when you have it off.
> In multiple ways. From your home even. It's really complicated so it would
> take too long to explain it to you here.
>
> Suffice to summarize:
> A. Turning off wi-fi (or bluetooth) does NOT stop Android
> from _automatically_ uploading your Wi-Fi (or Bluetooth) location data.
> B. Worse, even without an Android (or Apple) phone,
> your Wi-Fi location data is constantly _automatically_ being uploaded
> whether you know it or not.

I'm not surprised. It's why my next phone will be something like a
Pinephone.

> You can do something about it. But you have to know about it first.
> That's what I was alluding to when I said "this is a tough one".

My settings are different from yours. From your reply:

"Settings > Connections > Wi-Fi > 3dots > Advanced Settings > Manage
Networks > Select All > Delete

This is a tough one to keep clean because you have to have the
"autoconnect turned off" in order to stay out of Google's DB."

In my "Settings" there is a separate Wi-Fi setting - it's not in
"Connections". There are no 3dots, and as far as I can tell there's no
"Autoconnect".

>>> Here's what that cell-tower connection log looks like (back to September).
>>> <https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers
>>
>> I can't match that, but here are a couple of screenshots from the
>> programme I mentioned:
>> <https://ibb.co/QXkxSnP>
>
> Yeah. That's the same as this screenshot, only put into a graph for you.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/L6QDm7Vx/privacy04.jpg> GMS mobile apps used
>
>> Screenshot1 shows what the OS is reporting every time it talks to a tower.
>
> Can you doublecheck that?
> I did not see you give a screenshot of tower cells.
> Just apps & wi-fi access points.

Some confusion as I wasn't clear. The screenshot show what info was
being reported to the towers every time a connection was made, not info
about the towers themselves.

>> <https://ibb.co/MDg65wv>
>> Screenshot2 shows a small part of the wi-fi access sites the OS has
>> recorded.
>
> Yeah. That's the same as this screenshot, only put into a listing.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/gcCjHqHg/privacy09.jpg> All connected cell towers
>
> What we need is a way to show all the previous cell tower connections
> that just digs up the log from which that screenshot above came from.
>
>>> Settings > Google -> Firebase -> Google Play Services -> Mobile Application
>>> If what's in that database doesn't scare you, nothing else will.
>>
>> Very scary! I notice in Firebase that there's a "System Tracing" which
>> records "system activity for later analysis to improve performance". Do
>> you see that in you options? I wonder what that does.
>
> I don't see anything about "System Tracing" here...
> Settings > Google -> Firebase ->

My apologies...I was accessing too many screens and looked at the wrong
one. "System Tracing" is in Developer Options, not Firebase. However,
what "system activity" is it recording?

>> I think we all knew what Google does with *our* private information, but
>> it's interesting to see it demonstrated.
>
> I learned from adding value to your information that the cell tower
> connections are being saved, so I opened a separate thread on that.
> *Firebase? Where is your Android cell tower connections log?*
> <https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/iT4i40Ze5QY>

Let's hope that someone replies. Would anyone in XDA know about it on a
rooted phone? I also hope someone can answer the "SEND UPDATE-INDEX"
point you've raised in a separate thread.

> If anyone knows how to find the cell-tower connections db, let me know.

Final point, not of great importance. You keep referring to me as Jeff
Layton when it should be Jeff Layman. :-)))

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote

>> Can you doublecheck that?
>> I did not see you give a screenshot of tower cells.
>> Just apps & wi-fi access points.
>
> Some confusion as I wasn't clear. The screenshot show what info was
> being reported to the towers every time a connection was made, not info
> about the towers themselves.

Well, I know how to do both on Android:
a. Show what cell tower you are currently connected to
b. Show what cell towers you connected to in the past

I can get the first one without an app but so far I can only get the second
one using an app - where I'd rather get it directly from Android settings.

>> I don't see anything about "System Tracing" here...
>> Settings > Google -> Firebase ->
>
> My apologies...I was accessing too many screens and looked at the wrong
> one. "System Tracing" is in Developer Options, not Firebase. However,
> what "system activity" is it recording?

Oh. Yeah. There is a ton of tracing & debugging stuff in Developer options.
The only way I'd know is to try it. Just like you would.

>> *Firebase? Where is your Android cell tower connections log?*
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/iT4i40Ze5QY>
>
> Let's hope that someone replies. Would anyone in XDA know about it on a
> rooted phone? I also hope someone can answer the "SEND UPDATE-INDEX"
> point you've raised in a separate thread.

Most people don't know the first thing about Android so it's a hail mary
play to even ask, but I asked anyway and maybe someone knows more than we
do.

> Final point, not of great importance. You keep referring to me as Jeff
> Layton when it should be Jeff Layman. :-))

Ooops. There's actually a person by that name I know well.
It must've stuck. Sorry.