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computers / news.software.nntp / Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

SubjectAuthor
* What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INNGrant Taylor
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
|+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|||+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
||| |+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| ||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
||| || `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||| ||  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||| ||   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
||| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|||  `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
||`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /The Doctor
|| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|| |+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?bje
|| ||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|| `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Thomas Hochstein
| |+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
| |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Jason Evans
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
||`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
|`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
| `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /meff
|  |`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /John Levine
|  | `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |  +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?Russ Allbery
|  |  |+- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |  |`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|  |  | `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|  |  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
|  |   +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield
|  |   |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  |   `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
|  `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
+* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?32303031
|`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
`* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
 +* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
 |`- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
 `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
  +- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Julien ÉLIE
  `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
   `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Grant Taylor
    `* Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /Nigel Reed
     `- Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /jdanield

Pages:123
Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

<srfa84$5ln$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 11:41:09 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
Message-ID: <srfa84$5ln$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <srbfvb$ji$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
<20220109024011.0b249842@wibble.sysadmininc.com> <srea6u$c4j$1@dont-email.me>
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 18:41 UTC

On 1/9/22 2:34 AM, jdanield wrote:
> daunting is a bit big, but unquiet, yes.

I suspect the daunting part is the cloud of uncertanty that likely looms
over a new news master's head when they are doing something for the
first few times. Did I get the syntax correct? Did I break my server?
Did I enter sane values beyond syntax issues?

The first peer is somewhat easier than subsequent because subsequent
brings other questions with it. Am I causing a loop? How badly did /
can / will I break things?

This uncertanty seems to be perfectly normal to me.

I also think this uncertanty qualifies as "daunting".

That being said, I don't think anything is "hard".

> I just read the grep manual to use

Sure. But you need to 1) know to run the command (which is predicated
on a few things) and 2) know how to interpret the output.

> to check files.

Same issues as above.

Said issues aren't problems in and of themselves, but they do present a
hurtle that new newsmasters need to overcome.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 01:45:46 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: meff - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 01:45 UTC

On 2022-01-09, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> The first peer is somewhat easier than subsequent because subsequent
> brings other questions with it. Am I causing a loop? How badly did /
> can / will I break things?

On this note, is ensuring loops don't occur a function of peering
agreements? A combination of keeping track of peering relationships
and having news servers drop duplicate articles?

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: joh...@taugh.com (John Levine)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 04:16:52 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Taughannock Networks
Message-ID: <srgbvk$2gds$2@gal.iecc.com>
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Cleverness: some
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
Originator: johnl@iecc.com (John Levine)
 by: John Levine - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 04:16 UTC

According to meff <email@example.com>:
>On 2022-01-09, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>> The first peer is somewhat easier than subsequent because subsequent
>> brings other questions with it. Am I causing a loop? How badly did /
>> can / will I break things?
>
>On this note, is ensuring loops don't occur a function of peering
>agreements?

No. That's what the Path: header is for. You don't send stuff to a
peer that already has the peer's name in the path.

Potential loops and redundant feeds are fine. Even with the path checking,
you get some duplication if the message arrived at the two peers by different
paths, but the message-id takes care of that.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 21:59:45 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 04:59 UTC

On 1/9/22 9:16 PM, John Levine wrote:
> No. That's what the Path: header is for. You don't send stuff to
> a peer that already has the peer's name in the path.

My understanding is that news servers will also ignore an incoming
article if their own ID (from the me: entry) is already in the path. So
you're protected on both sides of a peering session.

> Potential loops and redundant feeds are fine. Even with the path
> checking, you get some duplication if the message arrived at the two
> peers by different paths, but the message-id takes care of that.

Though I think that there is a timing aspect. E.g. if the second /
duplicate message arrives /after/ the Message-ID has been purged from
history.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?
Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2022 22:11:51 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
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 by: Russ Allbery - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 06:11 UTC

Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> writes:
> On 1/9/22 9:16 PM, John Levine wrote:

>> No. That's what the Path: header is for. You don't send stuff to a
>> peer that already has the peer's name in the path.

> My understanding is that news servers will also ignore an incoming
> article if their own ID (from the me: entry) is already in the path. So
> you're protected on both sides of a peering session.

The primary defense is the history database which declines any message IDs
that the server has already seen. Path parsing is a secondary measure.
(Not offering articles to servers that already appear in the Path is
basically an optimization to avoid the unnecessary offer and decline of
the message ID.)

> Though I think that there is a timing aspect. E.g. if the second /
> duplicate message arrives /after/ the Message-ID has been purged from
> history.

This should not be possible if the server is correctly configured. The
history database entry should be retained for longer than the cutoff time
on the article Date / Injection-Date, so any article that is no longer in
history should be rejected as being too old (assuming nothing is messing
with the Date / Injection-Date headers).

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:34:23 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 06:34 UTC

Thank you for clarification Russ.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:20 UTC

Hi Nigel,

> It took me long enough to decide which type of spool I wanted to keep.
> Lots of terminology

Noted, thanks for the suggestions. I'll prioritize them!

> Most of it tells you
> what to do but not why you're doing it.

I understand your point.
I tried to have that in mind for the first video on setting up an NNTP
peer. I hope to have given the reasons (at least when I knew them!).

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Pour une personne optimiste, le verre est à moitié plein. Pour une
personne pessimiste, il est à moitié vide. Pour l'informaticien, il
est deux fois plus grand que nécessaire. »

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:32:53 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <src1fr$bv1$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:32 UTC

Bonsoir Jean-Daniel,

>> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/docs/checklist.html
>
> missed this one :-(. should be linked on top of "documentation" here:
>
> https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/
>
> (no "checklist" in this page :-()

A suggestion for Russ.
It indeed may be worth highlighting more CHECKLIST and INSTALL.

> probably a typo: "work on the files in ~news/etc" should be "work on the
> files in ~news"

No, it's really "~news/etc" as the sentence speaks about <pathetc>, as
said in the parenthesis:
"work on the files in ~news/etc (the default <pathetc> location set in
inn.conf)"

> is the "compile" part still needed?

It is the CHECKLIST for the INN upstream package, not the OpenSUSE
package...

> I know it's difficult to manage, but have a section "Configure" just
> under a line with "./configure --with-perl ..." is disturbing :-(

Good point. The "Configure" section should be better named "Parameter".
We'll then have: Setup/Compile/Parameter/Run/Feeds/Readers.

> "If using cycbuffs (the CNFS storage method)" comes at a moment where
> nobody know what cycbuffs is - nor CNFS :-(

Maybe that part should just be dropped, and we mention clearly in the
Introduction that a common traditional setup will be explained in
CHECKLIST (tradspool/tradindexed). Other storage mechanisms exist,
details in INSTALL.

> I stopped reading here. Good idea, but have to be completely rewritten :-(

As said in the introduction: "Further clarifications, updates, and
expansion are welcome."
:-)

>> We have a "Readers" section in CHECKLIST with a basic readers.conf
>> example and how to generate passwords :)
>>
>>       % htpasswd -nbd user pass
>>       user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE
>>
>>       % perl -e 'print "user:".crypt("pass", "LI")."\n";'
>>       user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE
>>
>
> does it mean one have to use .htaccess to manage access to the forums?

No, you don't need using .htaccess (that's not what is written here). I
just provided commands to Nigel who was asking how to generate passwords
for readers.conf. If the "htpasswd" program is installed, you can use
it. Otherwise, use the one-line command in Perl.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Le chemin n'est pas difficile, c'est le difficile qui est le chemin. »
(Kierkegaard)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:35:05 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <srd9nq$nj3$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:35 UTC

Hi Grant,

>> "If using cycbuffs (the CNFS storage method)" comes at a moment where
>> nobody know what cycbuffs is - nor CNFS :-(
>
> Ya.  Bootstrap documentation such that things are introduced / defined
> before they are referenced is ... difficult.  It's almost always
> extremely long compared to more dense documentation that assumes prior
> knowledge of a specific concept.

Totally!!

>> does it mean one have to use .htaccess to manage access to the forums?
>
> I feel like "htpasswd" is a bit of a name collision.  My understanding
> is that INN is re-using a (presumed to be) standard utility.

It was really an example of external program to call (not shipped with
INN, the same way as Perl is not). No name collision.

% htpasswd -nbd user pass
user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE

% perl -e 'print "user:".crypt("pass", "LI")."\n";'
user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Du haut de ces pyramides, Obélix, vingt siècles nous contemplent ! »
(Astérix)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:37:13 +0100
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:37 UTC

Hi The Doctor,

>>>> Would you please elaborate on what you think is / was difficult or a
>>>> barrier of entry for you?
>
> Can Readers use a system PAssword File?

readers.conf is definitively a top priority for a tutorial!!

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Les propositions mathématiques sont reçues comme vraies parce que
personne n'a intérêt qu'elles soient fausses. » (Montesquieu)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:54 UTC

Hi Thomas,

> The main problem was to get an overview of how
> the individual components interact, i.e. the flow of articles from peers
> and posters into INN, from there into the storage system and then from
> there back out to the peers, and what role the individual programs that
> make up the INN distribution and their configuration files play. The
> documentation of those individual parts is absolutely exemplary, but I
> missed an overview of the big picture.

I totally agree. A big picture is needed for both INN and the different
kind of agents in Usenet (posting/injecting/relaying/serving/reading).
I'll have a look.
At least I've tried to give that big picture for incoming/outgoing peers
in the first part of the tutorial I have just posted on NNTP peering.

> In my opinion, you need two things to set up and run INN:
>
> 1. A tutorial on how to set up the server for the first time

That's a tough tutorial to do!
I'll maybe consider doing one for a fresh install of the inn2-2.7.0
Debian package when it is released.

> 2. An overview, perhaps even including a few diagrams, of how all the
> individual programss and their configuration files fit together and
> interact.
>
> I tried to do that in 2005:
>
> <https://th-h.de/net/usenet/servers/inn/overview/> (German language)

Good job! Pretty detailed.

Russ, couldn't it be added in the "Contributed documentation" of your
INN's main web page?

> 3. recipes for certain tasks and situations,
>
> ... but that is the typical task of a FAQ, and the FAQ can be expanded
> as needed for that.

Sure!
Walkthroughs for usual tacks and situations should be made, and our FAQ
improved.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Les propositions mathématiques sont reçues comme vraies parce que
personne n'a intérêt qu'elles soient fausses. » (Montesquieu)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:02:11 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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In-Reply-To: <srcapg$gpn$4@theuse.news.theuse.net>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:02 UTC

Hi Jason,

> I had to post here asking for help getting external
> user access set up. The directions that I needed were in a man page that I
> didn't even know that I needed to read.

Ah, the infamous readers.conf file...
Isn't it *the* mandatory hazing to become a news admin? :-)

> It works now and I'm posting from
> my account. However I am still running on port 119 because I never could
> getting SSL working. I still can't get my signed certificates to be
> recognized and port 563 activated.

How do you start INN?
Isn't a line like this one in your init script launching nnrpd to wait
for TLS connections?

su news -s /bin/sh -c '<pathbin>/nnrpd -D -p 563 -S' >>
<pathlog>/rc.news 2>&1

> A series of walkthroughs (video or otherwise) explaining how to set up INN
> would be a great help.

Good advice :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Je suis mon cher ami, très heureux de te voir.
– C'est un alexandrin. » (Astérix)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:09:29 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <srdbhh$p5s$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Thu, 13 Jan 2022 23:09 UTC

Hi Grant,

> I mostly think that man pages are a great form of reference when you
> have an idea what you're looking for

Some of the man pages are even functional (and even technical)
specifications of INN implementation. Tons of details have been
accumulating for 30 years.
Yeah, INN celebrated its 30 years two months ago!

> but they make terrible introduction material.

I agree.

>> However I am still running on port 119 because I never could getting
>> SSL working. I still can't get my signed certificates to be recognized
>> and port 563 activated. Since my server is only for me and my friends,
>> I'm not terribly worried about security, but it would be nice to get
>> that working.
>
> Ya.  TLS support for INN is ... let's go with a work in progress.

TLS support is normally fine for readers (nnrpd).
.... and to be done for feeders (innd).

>> A series of walkthroughs (video or otherwise) explaining how to set up
>> INN would be a great help.
>
> I'm personally not a fan of videos.  But textual walk through, sure.

We need satisfying both audience. More and more people are expecting
and looking for videos nowadays... So we should invest our time in both.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Je suis mon cher ami, très heureux de te voir.
– C'est un alexandrin. » (Astérix)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
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 by: jdanield - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 07:07 UTC

Le 13/01/2022 à 23:32, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :
> Bonsoir Jean-Daniel,

>> probably a typo: "work on the files in ~news/etc" should be "work on the
>> files in ~news"
>
> No, it's really "~news/etc" as the sentence speaks about <pathetc>, as
> said in the parenthesis:
> "work on the files in ~news/etc (the default <pathetc> location set in
> inn.conf)"

this I don't understand. ~naws/etc is not a path??
>
>
>> is the "compile" part still needed?
>
> It is the CHECKLIST for the INN upstream package, not the OpenSUSE
> package...

sure but who still compile apps, apart linux from scratch?

>>>       % htpasswd -nbd user pass
>>>       user:LIfOpbjNaEQYE

>> does it mean one have to use .htaccess to manage access to the forums?
>
> No, you don't need using .htaccess (that's not what is written here). I
> just provided commands to Nigel who was asking how to generate passwords
> for readers.conf.

ok, thanks

jdd

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:53:46 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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In-Reply-To: <srr7ft$nli$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:53 UTC

Bonjour Jean-Daniel,

>> "work on the files in ~news/etc (the default <pathetc> location set in
>> inn.conf)"
>
> this I don't understand. ~news/etc is not a path??

Yes, it is a path.

~news is the root directory of the news user as set in the first step of
CHECKLIST:

"""
Make sure there is a news user (and a news group to which the news user
belongs). If necessary, you can use:

adduser --group --home /usr/local/news news
"""

and also in the Compile section :-)

"By default, --prefix=/usr/local/news is used."

The sentence you quoted is:

"It's time to work on the files in ~news/etc (the default pathetc
location set in inn.conf). Start with inn.conf [...]"

~news/etc would be /usr/local/news/etc in this context.

But as you noted, CHECKLIST is not written for people running OpenSUSE.
I don't know what directories were chosen for OpenSUSE but they are
different from that.

Debian uses /usr/lib/news for the news user directory, Fedora uses
/usr/libexec/news. Both use /etc/news as the <pathetc> directory.

By default, INN installs everything in <pathnews>, and <pathetc> is an
"etc" subdirectory directly in the news user home directory.
When you build INN, you can change all these paths (and also in inn.conf
after building INN). Packagers choose the ones that best fit into their
system.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – À trente jours de marche, aussi il vous faudra traverser le désert !
– Je ne connais pas encore ce genre de traversée mais par Toutatis, je
suis certain de m'en sortir très vite ! » (Astérix)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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In-Reply-To: <srfa84$5ln$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:01 UTC

Hi Grant,

> The first peer is somewhat easier than subsequent because subsequent
> brings other questions with it.  Am I causing a loop?  How badly did /
> can / will I break things?
>
> This uncertanty seems to be perfectly normal to me.

Even experimented admins in well-known companies make mistakes when
modifying their configuration (DNS, routing, etc.).

So yes, this uncertanty is pretty normal :-)
And happens to all of us!

--
Julien ÉLIE

« En somme, tu veux poéter plus haut que les autres, quoi ! » (Astérix)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:17:24 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:17 UTC

> This should not be possible if the server is correctly configured. The
> history database entry should be retained for longer than the cutoff time
> on the article Date / Injection-Date, so any article that is no longer in
> history should be rejected as being too old (assuming nothing is messing
> with the Date / Injection-Date headers).

Jean-Daniel knows that by heart :-)
(private joke)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« La vraie paresse, c'est de se lever à 6 heures du matin pour avoir
plus longtemps à ne rien faire. » (Tristan Bernard)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:17:31 +0100
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In-Reply-To: <srgeg0$79b$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:17 UTC

Hi Grant,

>> No.  That's what the Path: header is for.  You don't send stuff to a
>> peer that already has the peer's name in the path.
>
> My understanding is that news servers will also ignore an incoming
> article if their own ID (from the me: entry) is already in the path.

Yes exactly, the special ME entry in newsfeeds can do that.
Though normally, my incoming peers should already not have sent to me
articles where my path name is already present in the Path header field.
Usually, paths like "cyberspam" or like are put in the ME entry if you
do not want to honour it.

The most interesting use of the ME entry is for filtering against the
Distribution header field.

Anyway, all of that could be done via Cleanfeed.
I'm personally not using ME features, and if I need them, just update
the Cleanfeed settings.
And leave "ME:::" empty. This way, I prevent any unexpected behaviour
in the (complex) newsfeeds file :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Tu crois qu'ils auront du sanglier, dis ?
– Faut pas te faire d'idées ; plus les armées sont puissantes, plus la
nourriture est mauvaise. Ça maintient les guerriers de mauvaise
humeur.
– …
– Je ne pensais pas que l'armée romaine était aussi puissante ! »
(Astérix)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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 by: jdanield - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:18 UTC

Le 14/01/2022 à 12:53, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :
> Bonjour Jean-Daniel,
>
>>> "work on the files in ~news/etc (the default <pathetc> location set in
>>> inn.conf)"
>>
>> this I don't understand. ~news/etc is not a path??
>
> Yes, it is a path.

I have no etc in ~news, but ~news is /etc/news, so it's pretty confusing

> "It's time to work on the files in ~news/etc (the default pathetc
> location set in inn.conf). Start with inn.conf [...]"
>
> ~news/etc would be /usr/local/news/etc in this context.

in inn.conf I have only

pathetc: /etc/news

> /usr/libexec/news. Both use /etc/news as the <pathetc> directory.

same for opensuse ^^^^^
>
> By default, INN installs everything in <pathnews>, and <pathetc> is an
> "etc" subdirectory directly in the news user home directory.

so most of the time pathnews and pathetc are the same

to be made clear somewhere :-)

for openSUSE, all the #path section:# Paths

patharchive: /var/spool/news/archive
patharticles: /var/spool/news/articles
pathbin: /usr/lib/news/bin
pathcontrol: /usr/lib/news/bin/control
pathdb: /var/lib/news
pathetc: /etc/news
pathfilter: /usr/lib/news/bin/filter
pathhttp: /var/log/news/http
pathincoming: /var/spool/news/incoming
pathlog: /var/log/news
pathoutgoing: /var/spool/news/outgoing
pathoverview: /var/spool/news/overview
pathrun: /var/run/news
pathspool: /var/spool/news
pathtmp: /var/spool/news/tmp

thanks
jdd

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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 by: jdanield - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:18 UTC

Le 14/01/2022 à 13:17, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :
>> This should not be possible if the server is correctly configured. The
>> history database entry should be retained for longer than the cutoff time
>> on the article Date / Injection-Date, so any article that is no longer in
>> history should be rejected as being too old (assuming nothing is messing
>> with the Date / Injection-Date headers).
>
> Jean-Daniel knows that by heart :-)
> (private joke)
>

sure, now :-))

jdd

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:21 UTC

Hi Grant,

> With this in mind, I wonder if a "First Server" / "New Newsmaster" type
> document might be in order.  Something that provides suggestions on how
> to get started with your first server.
[...]
> The other very big thing that I think needs to be provided is a high
> level overview of Usenet, NNTP, and news servers in general.
There are several layers in documentation, maintained by different
people and aiming at different people, for different pieces in the
global system:
- news server documentation (INN, Diablo, Leafnode...)
- third-party software (Cleanfeed, PyClean, innduct, signcontrol,
certbot, uux, PAM modules, mail gatewing, modbot...)
- third-party keyrings (NoCeM, Usenet hierarchies)
- third-party list of newsgroups (active file, descriptions)
- third-party packaging (Fedora, OpenSUSE, Debian, FreeBSD...)
- third-party services (top1000...)
- Usenet in general

A confusion resides in that everything is mixed and people expect to
find the great One Cookbook, and that's pretty much difficult to do.
Not everyone has the same expectations in what to find, what is useful
to him, and depending on what he already knows and its skills in admin
system.
That's why it is terribly difficult to know the limit of each
documentation, which one exactly to improve, where to put the
information, etc.

Documentation for *almost* all of these exists but, when concatenated,
becomes too dense. And as you said before, just applying what the
documentation says does not improve one's skills.

So yes, I agree it would be useful to improve all of this. Nonetheless,
we should make sure of what to do, and if it will really serve and cover
the expectations of everybody.
It should not be too long, but not too short. It should cover all the
topics, but permits skipping what I don't mind. It should be
contextualized to my environment, etc.

It even sounds like a questionary to fill, and then the right optimized
documentation appears :-)
Or a book you are the Hero, will plenty of "if x go to page n" :-)

> Neither of these documents need, nor should, be an end all be all
> document.  Especially the "First Server" / "New Newsmaster" document
> should be more of a boot strap type document.

It's the most important part here.

Apart of a global schema of INN's architecture, I would still like to
understand why already existing contributed documentation for "First
Server" is still not good enough, and what should be added. (Nobody
answered when I asked what should be changed in these one-HTML pages
describing the installation of INN and its related packages.)

> There will be things that
> may be sub-optimal from a performance point of view, but chosen because
> they have a lower barrier to entry while suggesting to check things out
> again at some point in the future.

Sure.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« – Passe-moi une amphore.
– Brut ?
– Brut.
– Brutes ! » (Astérix, légionnaire recevant le bouchon dessus)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:26:33 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
Message-ID: <srrtm9$1vsd6$1@news.trigofacile.com>
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In-Reply-To: <srrt6f$1ok$1@dont-email.me>
 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:26 UTC

Bonjour Jean-Daniel,

> I have no etc in ~news, but ~news is /etc/news, so it's pretty confusing
[...]
> so most of the time pathnews and pathetc are the same
>
> to be made clear somewhere :-)

I think you'll like my answer:
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/inn.html#S5.4

"Why aren't INN's files where the documentation says they are?

Distributors who supply INN packages often rearrange the files and
directories. Unfortunately, this is very confusing for system
administrators, because the documentation is not updated to reflect the
modified locations of files."

:-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Une fois rien, c'est rien ; deux fois rien, c'est pas beaucoup, mais
pour trois fois rien, on peut déjà acheter quelque chose, et pour pas
cher. » (Raymond Devos)

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

<srrtoa$4sf$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/computers/article-flat.php?id=496&group=news.software.nntp#496

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 14:27:38 +0100
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 by: jdanield - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 13:27 UTC

Le 14/01/2022 à 13:17, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :

> articles where my path name is already present in the Path header field.

it should also be made clear what a "path" is.

once again, same word for different use... confusing.

There are (?):

* system path, where Linux looks for executable

~ # env | grep PATH
(...)
PATH=/sbin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/sbin:/root/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin

* local path:

~news> env | grep PATH(..)
PATH=/usr/lib/news/lib:/usr/sbin:/usr/lib/news/bin:/usr/lib/news/bin/control:/etc/news/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin

* feed path: route followed by an article (if I understand well) -
example in the article I answer:

Path:
eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.trigofacile.com!.POSTED.san13-h02-176-143-2-105.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr!not-for-mail

thanks
jdd

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:08:14 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:08 UTC

On 1/14/22 12:07 AM, jdanield wrote:
> this I don't understand. ~naws/etc is not a path??

It is a path, but it might not be the best reference. It depends on the
username of "news" /and/ that the news user's home directory is the
desired directory. Neither of which are something that I would bet more
than a cup of coffee on.

> sure but who still compile apps, apart linux from scratch?

/me raises his hand

Any source based Linux distribution / operating system will compile.
Gentoo, *BSD, etc.

Anybody that wants a version of INN that they can't get as binary for
their system. Maybe they want different features / defaults / what have
you.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP / INN server?

<srsehp$sec$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: What did / do you find difficult about running Usenet / NNTP /
INN server?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:14:20 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:14 UTC

On 1/14/22 6:26 AM, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
> Distributors who supply INN packages often rearrange the files and
> directories.

There are also some, myself included, that think various types of files
have proper homes. E.g. spooled files belong under /var/spool, log
files belong under /var/log, and config files belong in /etc, likely
under an application specific directory.

Then you run into additional complications like chroot / containers
which further modify directory location even more.

Aside: I like to have sym-links from the OS default location
(/etc/news) to the actual location inside the chroot / container
(/var/chroot/inn/etc).

Further Aside: The real directory needs to be inside the chroot and the
sym-links need to be outside pointing in because chroot won't follow
sym-links to outside the chroot. Pointing in works. Pointing out fails.

> Unfortunately, this is very confusing for system administrators,
> because the documentation is not updated to reflect the modified
> locations of files.

Ya.

If a distro is using atypical paths, then I think they need to either
update the documentation, or do something like the sym-link trick to
have their path point to the paths in the documentation so that things
seem rational.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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