On 12/3/23 11:23, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 3 Dec 2023 15:49:22 +0000, Andy Burns
> <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> micky wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> bad sector wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I see this NG is also being attacked by spammers
>>>>
>>>> I don't see it unless I view the relevant tag.
>>>
>>> What's a "relevant tag"?
>>
>> I use thundberbird message filters to add tag #6 to messages coming from
>> googlegroups (unless it's from someone in a special address book) that
>> way I don't see it. But if I want to check whether the filters are
>> working, I can view all messages with tag #6
>
> Very interesting. Copy to a friend who uses Thunderbird.

Interesting idea.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
[...]
> > See my other response (to Carlos and indirectly to you) for what the
> > News admins are doing and how.
>
> Yeah, I saw that. I see everything you post to this newsgroup, Frank. So
> you can assume if you posted it, I'll see it. I like what they're doing.
>
> The spam on the Android newsgroup has made it unusable without filtering.
> <https://i.postimg.cc/6pj29c6f/spam01.jpg>

Huh? Doesn't paganini.bofh.team do any filtering yet!? I use
News.Individual.Net and get no (GG) spam in this group. (I do filter on
users with @gmail.com addresses (to filter other spam), but not filter
on postings from GG.)

> So I appreciate that you opened this thread, and posted good info like
> 'The NoCeM FAQ' <http://www.cm.org/faq.html>

[...]

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

>> The spam on the Android newsgroup has made it unusable without filtering.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/6pj29c6f/spam01.jpg>
>
> Huh? Doesn't paganini.bofh.team do any filtering yet!? I use
> News.Individual.Net and get no (GG) spam in this group. (I do filter on
> users with @gmail.com addresses (to filter other spam), but not filter
> on postings from GG.)

Hi Frank,
(btw... I'm _still_ waiting for Google to pick up - it's been 92 minutes!)

While I appreciate your post, you have to realize I care about everyone.
Not just me. So spam on the newsgroup is spam on the newsgroup. Period.

It's one of the reasons I act _differently_ than most people who post to
this newsgroup, Frank - because I'm posting trying to help EVERYONE.

Whether or not I filter it out or whether or not my incoming news server
filters it out - it's still gonna affect someone on this newsgroup.

And this amount of spam is just impossible to fathom.
<http://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android> engine.
BTW, that has nothing to do with any nntp news server. It's all Google. :)

However... to your question about the bofh server's filtering...

The natural assumption you realistically assumed was that I use the same
server to post as what I use to read my news, which is a reasonable
assumption on your part - but which I never do - for privacy reasons.

That is, if I post using Paganini, I never read using Paganini.
It's a basic privacy thing of not returning to the scene of the crime. :)

There are actually good reasons for that basic use model of using different
nntp servers for different tasks (all related to privacy) just as I use a
different web browser for every task too; but suffice to respond to your
query that I have no idea if Ivo Gandolfo <usenet@bofh.team> filters
out the Google Groups Usenet spam - as I never read nntp using his server.

Nothing I do is by accident.

If I post using a news server, then they know a _lot_ about me from my
posts, but if I _also_ read using that same news server, they know more.

If I just read from a variety of news servers, then they only know what I
read but not what I post (where you will read far more than you post).

I can't fault you for having assumed I do what everyone else blindly does.
My nature is to do what makes sense - not what is the easiest thing to do.
--
Note: That's what irks me so much about people who leave their Android
phone set up at the defaults. They're like sheep blindly led to slaughter.

On 2023-12-04 20:16, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
> [...]
>>> See my other response (to Carlos and indirectly to you) for what the
>>> News admins are doing and how.
>>
>> Yeah, I saw that. I see everything you post to this newsgroup, Frank. So
>> you can assume if you posted it, I'll see it. I like what they're doing.
>>
>> The spam on the Android newsgroup has made it unusable without filtering.
>> <https://i.postimg.cc/6pj29c6f/spam01.jpg>
>
> Huh? Doesn't paganini.bofh.team do any filtering yet!? I use
> News.Individual.Net and get no (GG) spam in this group. (I do filter on
> users with @gmail.com addresses (to filter other spam), but not filter
> on postings from GG.)

LOL.

Arlen will not use News.Individual.Net. He would have to pay on
internet, he would be identified, oh the horror! :-D

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 3 Dec 2023 13:38:42 -0400, Wally J
<walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote
>
>> Very interesting. Copy to a friend who uses Thunderbird.
>
>Hi micky,
>
>To help you (and others like you) out...
>
>1. Best to point your friends on TB to the TB Usenet newsgroup.
> alt.comp.software.thunderbird
> They will answer TB & BetterBird filtering questions.
>
> One set of web-searchable permanent auto-archives are here:
> <http://alt.comp.software.thunderbird.narkive.com>
>
>2. And if you're really using Forte as your newsreader...
> I think Ken Blake uses Forte so you can ask him for help.
>
> I think this is the group for the forte newsreader questions.
> alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent (if you can believe that)
> There are other groups with "forte" in the name though.
>
> The very top-most post is "Google spam" in fact, just now:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent>
> From: John Larkin
> Dec 2, 2023, 9:53:45 PM (16 hours ago)
> Does anyone know the proper filter expression to kill all
> usenet posts from google groups?
>
>3. There's also a Usenet newsgroup for all newsreader support.
> news.software.readers
> <https://groups.google.com/g/news.software.readers>
>
> Frank and Vanguard often post to that newsgroup to help others.

Thanks a lot.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> He would have to pay on internet, he would be identified, oh the horror!

Hi Carlos,

It seems you need some heart-felt basic advice...

First of all, privacy isn't something an intelligent person makes fun of.
Secondly, if you're an adult, your arguments should be somewhat consistent.

For example, these are your own words just today to Jeorg about RCS:
"We don't pay for receiving anything.
Not even phone calls (except on roaming)."

Please be consistent next time.
If you're going to make fun of me for doing what you're doing, then at
least put a signature in that says you're appling rules only to others.

Not to yourself.
--
The problem with Usenet, as opposed to working in the Silicon Valley, is
everyone in teh Silicon Valley is extremely smart and very well educated.

On 2023-12-05 06:47, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> He would have to pay on internet, he would be identified, oh the horror!
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> It seems you need some heart-felt basic advice...
>
> First of all, privacy isn't something an intelligent person makes fun of.
> Secondly, if you're an adult, your arguments should be somewhat consistent.
>
> For example, these are your own words just today to Jeorg about RCS:
> "We don't pay for receiving anything.
> Not even phone calls (except on roaming)."
>
> Please be consistent next time.
> If you're going to make fun of me for doing what you're doing, then at
> least put a signature in that says you're appling rules only to others.
>
> Not to yourself.

It is your way of privacy, not most people way of privacy.
I'm consistent.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> It is your way of privacy, not most people way of privacy.
> I'm consistent.

Please don't try to make fun of me simply because I'm intelligent, Carlos.

I'm sorry for saying you were inconsistent because I had assumed you linked
creating an account (which is the loss of privacy) to paying for Usenet
(which is harder to do without creating an account & using a credit card).

It has always been the case, since the dawn of time, that the dumber
someone is, the easier it is to sell them something they can get for free.

Conversely, particularly with Internet services, the smarter someone is,
the easier it is for them to get things for free that others pay for.

For example, my Internet is free at my home - because I get it from miles
away on a tower that broadcasts free Internet as a service to the people.

But that means I have to be intelligent about setting up my Wi-Fi radios.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YqTk0q1T/ap.jpg> Cellular repeater & home Wi-Fi APs

Surprisingly, there are people out there who can't figure out how to set up
a radio to pick up the Internet from another radio that is five miles away.
<https://i.postimg.cc/VvqLKQtQ/wifi.jpg> Typical range is about 10 miles

Heck, there are people who can't even set up a bridge so that they can pick
up a router's access point hundreds of yards across the stables in a barn.
<https://i.postimg.cc/6QJqK6Cj/desktop02.jpg> Desktop MikroTik WISP radios

Not only do I get my Internet for free (from more than five miles away),
but I get my 5G Samsung Galaxy Android phone for free also (well, I had to
pay the 10% sales tax on the MSRP & I had to buy a case & sd card for it).

My point is that intelligent people don't pay for what they can get for
free, and you can rest assured this Internet post doesn't cost me money.

It costs you.
But not me.

Please don't try to make fun of me simply because I'm intelligent, Carlos.
--
The more ignorant people are, the easier it is to sell them things.

On 2023-12-05 20:30, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> It is your way of privacy, not most people way of privacy.
>> I'm consistent.
>
> Please don't try to make fun of me simply because I'm intelligent, Carlos.

You are not the only intelligent people here, Arlen. No matter how many
times you insist that other people are dumb. We aren't, we just make
different choices than you.

And I said nothing about your intelligence (this time at least).

....

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

"bad sector" <forgetski@invalid.net> wrote

| Sticking one's head in the sand doesn't impede google,
| and no one else is behind all the spam as far as I'm
| concerned because no one else wants to destroy usenet
| as much as google does. The prime beneficiary has to
| be the prime suspect. The same problem on many, many
| other NG's and no one is going to convince me that
| spammers would be so attracted by a dying platform.
|

That would be a lot of work for Google. Usenet is dying,
anyway. And half the people still here are so old and cranky
that they just argue all day, or they ask questions to have
company. I think the main problem is that younger people
don't want free, open services. It makes them feel "unsafe"
if they can't upvote, downvote and complain to moderators.
So it's gradually dying out as people simply age out of it. Have
you ever tried to explain to a 40-year-old, much less a
20-year-old, what Usenet is?

For years there was virtually no spam in Microsoft programming
groups, even when MS disowned them. But it's started showing
up since E-S dropped them. There just aren't enough people
still interested and able to access the groups. That seems to
draw the spammers.

Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-12-04 20:16, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> >> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
> > [...]
> >>> See my other response (to Carlos and indirectly to you) for what the
> >>> News admins are doing and how.
> >>
> >> Yeah, I saw that. I see everything you post to this newsgroup, Frank. So
> >> you can assume if you posted it, I'll see it. I like what they're doing.
> >>
> >> The spam on the Android newsgroup has made it unusable without filtering.
> >> <https://i.postimg.cc/6pj29c6f/spam01.jpg>
> >
> > Huh? Doesn't paganini.bofh.team do any filtering yet!? I use
> > News.Individual.Net and get no (GG) spam in this group. (I do filter on
> > users with @gmail.com addresses (to filter other spam), but not filter
> > on postings from GG.)
>
> LOL.
>
> Arlen will not use News.Individual.Net. He would have to pay on
> internet, he would be identified, oh the horror! :-D

Not only that, he would have to pay some 800 Euros per year to
accomodate all his nyms.

Newyana2 <Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote

> Usenet is dying, anyway.

While that may be true, what I liked about DejaGoogle was that I can find
something useful that was said before Usenet dies out for good in the end.
<https://groups.google.com/g/{put.name.of.archived.usenet.newsgroup.here}>

That search engine is useful to everyone because:
a. It doesn't require an account or paying for retention of articles
b. It works for everyone (even your 99 year old mother)
c. It only needs a web browser (which everyone has), and not a newsreader

The problem with all this spam from Google servers is that even finding the
URI to an article posted _today_ is a mess of wading through that garbage.
<https://i.postimg.cc/yxpSLVrr/Google-Groups-Usenet-Portal-spam-20231206-730am.jpg>

I spent hours on the phone trying to communicate with Mountainview on this.
<https://i.postimg.cc/d388rqkj/google02.jpg>

What I suggest everyone do is plug that image into a complaint over here.
<https://i.postimg.cc/k462x02X/spam02.jpg

Together, maybe we can get Google to at least look at the problem we face.

Please do this today:

1. Go to <https://groups.google.com/g/google-usenet/about>
2. Click the "Gear" icon at the top right of that web page
3. "Send feedback to Google"
Box 1: "Tell us what prompted this feedback."
Box 2: "A screenshot will help us better understand your feedback."

Optionally, you can do the deluxe version of sending feedback to Google.
A. In tab 1, go to <https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>
B. Take a screenshot & save it to a date-related name you can easily find.
C. In tab 2, go to <https://groups.google.com/g/google-usenet/about>
D. Click the "Gear" icon at the top right of that "about" web page
E. In the first box "Tell us what prompted this feedback."
tell Google the problem in a way that Google 'may' care about.

For example, tell them something like "Your Google Groups servers
are allowing obvious off-topic rampant spamming by few individuals
<https://groups.google.com>
such that your own Google Groups Server Search Engine
<http://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android>
is now useless because a few users are abusing your Google servers."

F. In the second box upload that screenshot of the first tab.
G. Press the "Send" button on the bottom right of that second tab.
--
No one person can influence Google but together, maybe we all can.

On 12/6/23 5:43 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
> "bad sector" <forgetski@invalid.net> wrote
>
> | Sticking one's head in the sand doesn't impede google,
> | and no one else is behind all the spam as far as I'm
> | concerned because no one else wants to destroy usenet
> | as much as google does. The prime beneficiary has to
> | be the prime suspect. The same problem on many, many
> | other NG's and no one is going to convince me that
> | spammers would be so attracted by a dying platform.
> |
>
> That would be a lot of work for Google. Usenet is dying,
> anyway. And half the people still here are so old and cranky
> that they just argue all day, or they ask questions to have
> company. I think the main problem is that younger people
> don't want free, open services. It makes them feel "unsafe"
> if they can't upvote, downvote and complain to moderators.

If true, and I think it probably is, that's incredibly sad. The world
holds more possibilities now than ever before, and the little idiots are
deliberately limiting themselves. "Safety" is an illusion and is pretty
much dependent on luck, although preparation helps a lot.

> So it's gradually dying out as people simply age out of it. Have
> you ever tried to explain to a 40-year-old, much less a
> 20-year-old, what Usenet is?

I've been skiing for the last 35 years. 6-minute conversations with
strangers on the lift. I never found a person who knew what usenet was.
I don't ask any more. My usenet 'friends' migrated to Facebook and
then just fell off the edge.

> For years there was virtually no spam in Microsoft programming
> groups, even when MS disowned them. But it's started showing
> up since E-S dropped them. There just aren't enough people
> still interested and able to access the groups. That seems to
> draw the spammers.

The purpose of spam MUST be simple vandalism; we see it in various
posters who simply want to stir up trouble. Same as trash in the
forests and graffiti everywhere.

--
Cheers, Bev
It only takes 2 men to tile a bathroom
if you slice them thinly enough.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> No matter how many
> times you insist that other people are dumb. We aren't, we just make
> different choices than you.

All I ask of you, Carlos, is to stop trying to insult me.

It's not the choices people make that show their IQ.
It's how they logically reason given the salient facts.

Take the example of the typical iKook, Carlos.
a. They claim lower total cost of ownership, for example,
simply Apple will buy back a recent model iPhone, if,
they use that buyback "credit" to buy another iPhone.
b. Yet they ignore he huge costs they incur buying what
most Android owners don't even need to purchase.
c. And they limit the comparison to only expensive Androids
(where, let's be clear, my free Android phone can do far
more app functionality than any iPhone ever sold).

What shows their low IQ, Carlos, isn't their choices, Carlos.
It's the fact that they can't form a sensibly logical choice.

Worse, when confronted with the pertinent logical facts, Carlos.
They make endless excuses for their lack of comprehensive skills.

Like you do, Carlos.

All I ask of you, Carlos, is to stop trying to insult me.
--
I will treat you as you treat me - I'm a mirror of your posts.

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> Not only that, he would have to pay some 800 Euros per year to
> accomodate all his nyms.

If it takes you more than ten seconds to figure out my posts, Frank, then
you're not even close to as smart as I have given you credit for being.

BTW, I treat you as you treat me.
--
Usenet is water under the bridge. Act civilly to me & I'll repay in kind.

On 2023-12-06 20:46, Wally J wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote
>
>> No matter how many
>> times you insist that other people are dumb. We aren't, we just make
>> different choices than you.
>
> All I ask of you, Carlos, is to stop trying to insult me.

I am not insulting you.

Ignoring the rest of your post.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-12-06 16:53, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-12-04 20:16, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>>>> Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>>> [...]
>>>>> See my other response (to Carlos and indirectly to you) for what the
>>>>> News admins are doing and how.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I saw that. I see everything you post to this newsgroup, Frank. So
>>>> you can assume if you posted it, I'll see it. I like what they're doing.
>>>>
>>>> The spam on the Android newsgroup has made it unusable without filtering.
>>>> <https://i.postimg.cc/6pj29c6f/spam01.jpg>
>>>
>>> Huh? Doesn't paganini.bofh.team do any filtering yet!? I use
>>> News.Individual.Net and get no (GG) spam in this group. (I do filter on
>>> users with @gmail.com addresses (to filter other spam), but not filter
>>> on postings from GG.)
>>
>> LOL.
>>
>> Arlen will not use News.Individual.Net. He would have to pay on
>> internet, he would be identified, oh the horror! :-D
>
> Not only that, he would have to pay some 800 Euros per year to
> accomodate all his nyms.

:-)

Actually, news.individual.net doesn't care what name you present in the
from field, he can change it as often as he likes, with a single
account. But that account would be identified, and we could complain to
the administrator about his name shifting. Or the administrator might
notice on this own and block the behaviour.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2023-12-06 17:21, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 12/6/23 5:43 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
>> "bad sector" <forgetski@invalid.net> wrote

....

>> So it's gradually dying out as people simply age out of it. Have
>> you ever tried to explain to a 40-year-old, much less a
>> 20-year-old, what Usenet is?
>
> I've been skiing for the last 35 years.  6-minute conversations with
> strangers on the lift.  I never found a person who knew what usenet was.
>  I don't ask any more.  My usenet 'friends' migrated to Facebook and
> then just fell off the edge.
>
>>    For years there was virtually no spam in Microsoft programming
>> groups, even when MS disowned them. But it's started showing
>> up since E-S dropped them. There just aren't enough people
>> still interested and able to access the groups. That seems to
>> draw the spammers.
>
> The purpose of spam MUST be simple vandalism;  we see it in various
> posters who simply want to stir up trouble.  Same as trash in the
> forests and graffiti everywhere.

Is it spam on Usenet proper, or spam sent to google groups, which
happens to be connected to Usenet?

There is a difference.

New posters come to Google Groups.

Does any spammer, who are trying to profit in some manner, post to
Usenet proper?

The spammers on Usenet proper are probably old farts as we are.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 12/6/23 10:21, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 12/6/23 5:43 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
>> "bad sector" <forgetski@invalid.net> wrote
>>
>> | Sticking one's head in the sand doesn't impede google,
>> | and no one else is behind all the spam as far as I'm
>> | concerned because no one else wants to destroy usenet
>> | as much as google does. The prime beneficiary has to
>> | be the prime suspect. The same problem on many, many
>> | other NG's and no one is going to convince me that
>> | spammers would be so attracted by a dying platform.
>> |
>>
>>    That would be a lot of work for Google. Usenet is dying,
>> anyway. And half the people still here are so old and cranky
>> that they just argue all day, or they ask questions to have
>> company. I think the main problem is that younger people
>> don't want free, open services. It makes them feel "unsafe"
>> if they can't upvote, downvote and complain to moderators.
>
> If true, and I think it probably is, that's incredibly sad.  The world
> holds more possibilities now than ever before, and the little idiots are
> deliberately limiting themselves.  "Safety" is an illusion and is pretty
> much dependent on luck, although preparation helps a lot.

Probably because every website feels so clean and sterile, and setting
up Usenet requires doing stuff that they're not used to (and TB is the
only reader I would consider mainstream because of the connection to
Firefox and being a mail client too)
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

>> All I ask of you, Carlos, is to stop trying to insult me.
>
> I am not insulting you.

Look Carlos, all you do is subtract value from every thread you post to.
Just like Joerg does. And Alan Baker.

You've _never_ added on-topic technical value to any thread in your life.
You can't.

All you can do, Carlos, is insult people.
You have no other capacity.

The amount of technical value I add in a single tutorial is more than you
can add if you add up every single post you've ever made here, Carlos.

That's how much of a piece of shit you are, Carlos.
Just like Alan Baker & Joerg Lorenz, Carlos.

Devoid of value.

However...

Usenet is water under the bridge to me.
If you act civilly toward me (& others), then I'll act civilly with you.

If you post a question to this newsgroup, Carlos, I'll try to help you.
Just don't act like a piece of shit when that happens.

I always treat you the way you treat me.
--
You learn the true meaning of worthless people when you are on Usenet.

"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote

> Does any spammer, who are trying to profit in some manner, post to
> Usenet proper?

The problem needs to be understood at the level an adult should comprehend.

They do spam to Usenet proper, but the problem isn't that spam (IMHO).
It's bigger than that when the DejaNews archives are no longer functional.

There are 3 solutions to the spam now, but the spam isn't the real problem.
*Anyone can filter out the spam*

Self centered people only see the problem as it affects their use model.
But people who care about others see a much bigger picture, Carlos.

The problem is that the dejanews archives are being rendered useless.
That has negative implications you can't possibly comprehend, Carlos.

That's why it's important to fix this problem.
And, to answer your question (since I asked it on the peering groups).

My understanding of the "immediate" problem is...
a. The spammers have real accounts on Google servers
b. They are spamming Usenet through the Google Groups' portal
c. Google is doing nothing about it - but worse...

Some notoriously badly behaved peers are peering that spam.
A. Giganews
B. Highwinds
C. others?

There are 3 solutions to the spam, but the spam isn't the real problem.
1. The main problem is Google is allowing this spam
2. And then the badly behaved news servers are peering this spam
3. Such that the rest of us are filtering out all Google Groups' posts
(except those with better filters, such as those Andy discussed)

But the spam isn't the problem, Carlos.
The problem is that the spam destroys the utility of the DejaNews archive.

For self-centered people, and especially for people like Joerg Lorenz who
only post to Usenet for their own amusement, losing DejaNews isn't an
issue.

But for those of us who care about the population at large, losing the
utility of the DejaNews archives is a big deal as it affects everyone.

Yes. Everyone.
Well, anyone who is intelligent enough to run a search before posting.

But it also affects people _outside_ of Usenet, Carlos.
Because it only takes a web browser to run a search.
And that search result can be read without a news reader
And the retention is "forever" (in terms of DejaNews' archives)
And the result can be forwarded to someone else as a link.
etc.

None of this occurs to self-centered people, Carlos.
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The beauty of Usenet is you can reach people who care about everyone.