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computers / alt.sys.pdp10 / Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

SubjectAuthor
* Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
+* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasgah4
|`* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
| +* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasScott Lurndal
| |`- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
| +- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasgah4
| +- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasgah4
| `* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasgah4
|  `* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
|   `* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasPaul Rubin
|    +* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasAlan Bawden
|    |`- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
|    `- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
+* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasgah4
|`* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
| `- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
+* Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasm brandenberg
|`- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasLars Brinkhoff
`- Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicasgah4

1
Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

<7wtuf2z8qo.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 08:02:07 +0000
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 08:02 UTC

Hello,

I'm trying to gauge the interest in keyboard replicas. The ones I have
in mind would be modeled on the keyboard for the Knight TV, and the
similar SAIL keyboard. Apparently there's a large start-up cost for
making key caps, so the more orders the merrier.

The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.

More info here:
https://github.com/osiweb/unified_retro_keyboard/issues/37

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
From: gah...@u.washington.edu (gah4)
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 by: gah4 - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 12:48 UTC

On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 12:02:09 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

> I'm trying to gauge the interest in keyboard replicas. The ones I have
> in mind would be modeled on the keyboard for the Knight TV, and the
> similar SAIL keyboard. Apparently there's a large start-up cost for
> making key caps, so the more orders the merrier.
> The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
> would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.

Is this for nostalgia, where accurately representing the original is most important?

Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each key, such that any
glyph can be added to each key.

Or the low-teck way, clear key caps that you remove and place under each one a
printed indication of the key function.

Neither one will confuse anyone who remembers the original, but should
allow for actual use to be close enough.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
References: <7wtuf2z8qo.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 19:34 UTC

gah4 wrote:
>> The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
>> would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.
>
> Is this for nostalgia, where accurately representing the original is
> most important?

It's not nostalgia, because I never used or even saw those keyboards
before.

> Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
out of stock.

> Or the low-teck way, clear key caps that you remove and place under
> each one a printed indication of the key function.

I'm hoping to spend $50 extra to get something better looking. But your
suggestion could maybe be an option for people who want to reduce the
cost. At this point nothing is set in stone.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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From: sco...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
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Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
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 by: Scott Lurndal - Tue, 21 Dec 2021 20:21 UTC

Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> writes:
>gah4 wrote:
>>> The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
>>> would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.
>>
>> Is this for nostalgia, where accurately representing the original is
>> most important?
>
>It's not nostalgia, because I never used or even saw those keyboards
>before.
>
>> Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
>> key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.
>
>Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
>out of stock.

You might consider using a touch screen display panel on a second
video port if you have one, lay the monitor flat and write some
software to simulate the keyboard layout.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
From: gah...@u.washington.edu (gah4)
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 by: gah4 - Wed, 22 Dec 2021 00:53 UTC

On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> > key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

> Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
> out of stock.

I think the one I was looking at was individual keys, to make your own keyboard.
But then again, as described above, it would need a PC board, too.

I didn't look all that hard, except to be sure that it had been done before.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Wed, 22 Dec 2021 06:26 UTC

Scott Lurndal writes:
> You might consider using a touch screen display panel on a second
> video port if you have one, lay the monitor flat and write some
> software to simulate the keyboard layout.

No, I want a real keyboard with tactile feedback. But if someone were
to make a 3D model that could be part of a virtual reality simulation.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
From: gah...@u.washington.edu (gah4)
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 by: gah4 - Wed, 22 Dec 2021 10:27 UTC

On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> > key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

> Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
> out of stock.

Here is the data sheet for the one I found. I didn't see any pricing:

https://www.lcd-keys.com/files/SB6432.pdf

I didn't see if there are double width keys, but also didn't look so hard.
The data sheet gives the PC board layout.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
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 by: gah4 - Thu, 23 Dec 2021 19:31 UTC

On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> > key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

> Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
> out of stock.

I am still getting details, but it seems that the keys are about $35, quantity one.

I don't see that they have them already in the shape of the usual keyboard,
but more of a rectangular array. Maybe for a store, with keys for each product.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Thu, 23 Dec 2021 20:05 UTC

gah4 wrote:
> I am still getting details, but it seems that the keys are about $35,
> quantity one.

Thanks for looking into this! I'm hoping the other keycaps will be
around $50 for a set of 69/73 (SAIL/Knight).

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
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 by: Paul Rubin - Thu, 23 Dec 2021 20:42 UTC

Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> writes:
> Thanks for looking into this! I'm hoping the other keycaps will be
> around $50 for a set of 69/73 (SAIL/Knight).

Don't the keys have legends on the front and not just the top? That
also seemed likely to make them expensive.

I've felt that the legends could be worked around somehow (currently
thinking a laser engraver could be better than 3d printing), and a more
difficult issue with those keyboards was the layout and enclosure,
especially if you really want to reproduce the massive feeling of the
original. I don't find the latter to be so desirable though.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

<86ilvesq1z.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

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From: ala...@csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 21:19:04 -0500
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 by: Alan Bawden - Fri, 24 Dec 2021 02:19 UTC

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:

Don't the keys have legends on the front and not just the top? That
also seemed likely to make them expensive.

I believe that having symbols on the _front_ of the keys was unique to
the Lisp Machine "Space Cadet" keyboards.

--
Alan Bawden

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

<7w7dbuv58i.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
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Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 07:20:29 +0000
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Fri, 24 Dec 2021 07:20 UTC

Alan Bawden wrote:
> Paul Rubin wrote:
> > Don't the keys have legends on the front and not just the top?
> I believe that having symbols on the _front_ of the keys was unique to
> the Lisp Machine "Space Cadet" keyboards.

That's right. The Knight and SAIL keyboards only have them on top.
I have provided some photos and links here:

https://github.com/osiweb/unified_retro_keyboard/issues/37

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

<7wzgoqt77n.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
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Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:20:44 +0000
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:20 UTC

Paul Rubin wrote:
> a more difficult issue with those keyboards was the layout and
> enclosure, especially if you really want to reproduce the massive
> feeling of the original.

I don't know what to do about the enclosure yet. Suggestions welcome!

No, I don't think an exact copy of the bulky original is necessary.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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 by: gah4 - Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:07 UTC


It seems that:

https://www.solutionsinplastic.com/

makes custom keycaps. It might be $850 for a whole set, quantity one.

LCD keycaps cost more, but are also more useful.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

<7wh7aurup4.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
References: <7wtuf2z8qo.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:25 UTC

> It seems that:
> https://www.solutionsinplastic.com/
> makes custom keycaps. It might be $850 for a whole set, quantity one.

Thanks, that might be an alternative to the other manufacturer which is
Signature Plastics. The price point is probably lower at quantity 50
which is the ballpark I'm targeting.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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From: lars.s...@nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:38:26 +0000
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:38 UTC

>> It seems that:
>> https://www.solutionsinplastic.com/
>> makes custom keycaps. It might be $850 for a whole set, quantity one.
>
> Thanks, that might be an alternative to the other manufacturer which
> is Signature Plastics.

When I go to solutionsinplastic.com I see they are a branch of Signature
Plastics, so it's probably the same price.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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From: mcb...@panix.com (m brandenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:07:28 +0000
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: m brandenberg - Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:07 UTC

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:

> More info here:
> https://github.com/osiweb/unified_retro_keyboard/issues/37

The Drop (nee Massdrop) operation has a focus on special-interest
keycaps and they've come close in a few cases: https://drop.com/
Have a chat with them as they have plenty of experience organizing
such projects as well as dealing with supply-chain issues.

m

--
Monty Brandenberg

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

<7wtueilefa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

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Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
Organization: nocrew
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<Pine.NEB.4.64.2112271504360.24275@panix1.panix.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 09:28:25 +0000
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 by: Lars Brinkhoff - Wed, 5 Jan 2022 09:28 UTC

m brandenberg wrote:
> The Drop (nee Massdrop) operation has a focus on special-interest
> keycaps and they've come close in a few cases

Thanks, I have contacted them.

Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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Subject: Re: Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas
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 by: gah4 - Thu, 6 Jan 2022 04:21 UTC

On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 12:02:09 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

> I'm trying to gauge the interest in keyboard replicas. The ones I have
> in mind would be modeled on the keyboard for the Knight TV, and the
> similar SAIL keyboard. Apparently there's a large start-up cost for
> making key caps, so the more orders the merrier.

The better keycaps are double injection molded, such that the
symbols go all the way through. Not just painted on the top,
where they can wear off easily.

Now, it might be that the keyboards discussed won't be used enough
to wear off the symbols.

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor