The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
not do it.

The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.

--

Abraços

Gilberto F da Silva

Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:

> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
> not do it.
>
> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which does
not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by dividing
the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And that jumps
up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or from a HD.

Herman Viaene

Herman Viaene wrote:
> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>
>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>> not do it.
>>
>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>
> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which does
> not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by dividing
> the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And that jumps
> up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or from a HD.
>
> Herman Viaene

In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in Mageia
distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be better to
remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for the end of the
installation.

This is not important for how the distribution works, but it leaves a
bad impression for someone trying the distribution for the first time.

--

Abraços

Gilberto F da Silva

Op Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:45:39 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:

> Herman Viaene wrote:
>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>
>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>>> not do it.
>>>
>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>>
>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
>> that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
>> from a HD.
>>
>> Herman Viaene
>
> In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in
Mageia
> distribution it works very erratically.

Some hide the fact by not incrementing the time count as Mageia does.
I've seen downloads/installations hang at "30 seconds remaining" for over
1 minute. I don't know, and I really don't care, if that leaves a better
impression....

Herman

Herman Viaene wrote:
> Op Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:45:39 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>
>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>
>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>>>> not do it.
>>>>
>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>>>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>>>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>>>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>>>
>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
>>> that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
>>> from a HD.
>>>
>>> Herman Viaene
>>
>> In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in
> Mageia
>> distribution it works very erratically.
>
> Some hide the fact by not incrementing the time count as Mageia does.
> I've seen downloads/installations hang at "30 seconds remaining" for over
> 1 minute. I don't know, and I really don't care, if that leaves a better
> impression....

For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
working on the distribution.

--

Abraços

Gilberto F da Silva

On 1/12/22 12:49, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
> Herman Viaene wrote:
>> Op Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:45:39 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>
>>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>>
>>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>>>>> not do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>>>>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>>>>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>>>>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>>>>
>>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>>>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>>>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
>>>> that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
>>>> from a HD.
>>>>
>>>> Herman Viaene
>>>
>>> In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in
>> Mageia
>>> distribution it works very erratically.
>>
>> Some hide the fact by not incrementing the time count as Mageia does.
>> I've seen downloads/installations hang at "30 seconds remaining" for over
>> 1 minute. I don't know, and I really don't care, if that leaves a better
>> impression....
>
> For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
> make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
> working on the distribution.
>
Mageia DOES have limited resources. For that reason, the old Mandriva
tools give way to what matters, the software.

If you think that manpower is a problem, you can always jump in and
help. Mageia is always looking for members who want to give something
back. I suggested an improvement to one of the tools. The reply I got
was that the software is all open source, so I am free to try my own
ideas. See

https://www.mageia.org/en/contribute/.

It will give you an idea of what it takes for Mageia (or any distro, for
that matter), even to see the light of day.

On 2022-11-29 09:45, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
> Herman Viaene wrote:
>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>
>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>>> not do it.
>>>
>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>>
>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which does
>> not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by dividing
>> the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And that jumps
>> up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or from a HD.
>>
>> Herman Viaene
>
> In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in Mageia
> distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be better to
> remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for the end of the
> installation.
>
When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are used.
When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
simplified for the uninitiated:

Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete the
installation.

The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
timer that updates more often would make install from optical media take
even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even worse
than an inaccurate timer does.

On 2022-11-30 20:49, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
> For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
> make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
> working on the distribution.

And why is that a bad thing? Seems to me that Mageia's limited manpower
is choosing substance over style, creating the best distro they can
without focusing on a bunch of window dressing that users won't see
again after the installation is complete.

TJ

TJ wrote:
> On 2022-11-30 20:49, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>> For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
>> make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
>> working on the distribution.
>
> And why is that a bad thing? Seems to me that Mageia's limited manpower
> is choosing substance over style, creating the best distro they can
> without focusing on a bunch of window dressing that users won't see
> again after the installation is complete.
Among so many distributions, the Mandrake distribution had a well-made
look. That was it differentiator. I still try to use this distro but I
believe it has little appeal to new users. Imagine someone trying to
install Mageia for the first time and being faced with an installer that
shows inaccurate information. The rest may work perfectly fine but the
initially user-visible part will not. This will already leave a bad
impression.

--

Gilberto F da Silva

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2022-12-02, Doug Laidlaw <laidlaws@hotkey.net.au> wrote:
> On 1/12/22 12:49, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>> Op Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:45:39 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>
>>>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>>>>>> not do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>>>>>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>>>>>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>>>>>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>>>>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>>>>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
>>>>> that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
>>>>> from a HD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Herman Viaene
>>>>
>>>> In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in
>>> Mageia
>>>> distribution it works very erratically.
>>>
>>> Some hide the fact by not incrementing the time count as Mageia does.
>>> I've seen downloads/installations hang at "30 seconds remaining" for over
>>> 1 minute. I don't know, and I really don't care, if that leaves a better
>>> impression....
>>
>> For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
>> make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
>> working on the distribution.
>>
> Mageia DOES have limited resources. For that reason, the old Mandriva
> tools give way to what matters, the software.
>
> If you think that manpower is a problem, you can always jump in and
> help. Mageia is always looking for members who want to give something
> back. I suggested an improvement to one of the tools. The reply I got
> was that the software is all open source, so I am free to try my own
> ideas. See
>
> https://www.mageia.org/en/contribute/.

I translated some things into Portuguese and Esperanto. Unfortunately,
for Esperanto no one else is translating.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+
Comment: ! https://t.me/Gilberto_F_da_Silva !
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+

iEYEARECAAYFAmOLu0wACgkQJxugWtMhGw5YnwCgo6/aPkd6cF6pUJgo91ZcrP4O
h54An31voMBgmgwk7yntc5VKtjxES8w7
=hc1L
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

TJ wrote:
> On 2022-11-29 09:45, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>
>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>>>> not do it.
>>>>
>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>>>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>>>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>>>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>>>
>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which does
>>> not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by dividing
>>> the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And that jumps
>>> up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or from a HD.
>>>
>>> Herman Viaene
>>
>>     In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in
>> Mageia
>> distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be better to
>> remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for the end of the
>> installation.
>>
> When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
> more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are used.
> When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
> simplified for the uninitiated:

I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer doesn't
work well.

>
> Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
> it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
> This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
> the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete the
> installation.

On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I don't
notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.

>
> The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
> what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
> time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
> media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
> so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
> design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
> timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
> would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
> timer that updates more often would make install from optical media take
> even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even worse
> than an inaccurate timer does.
>

A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
packet remaining counter could be put in place.

--

Abraços

Gilberto F da Silva

On Sun, 4 Dec 2022 13:00:49 -0200, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:

> A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
> supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
> packet remaining counter could be put in place.
>

Yeah, but users would be upset because remain package count does not tell
approximately how long it is going to take to completion.

Better might be size of remaining packages divided by current download
speed.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2022-12-04, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2022 13:00:49 -0200, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>
>> A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
>> supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
>> packet remaining counter could be put in place.
>>
>
> Yeah, but users would be upset because remain package count does not tell
> approximately how long it is going to take to completion.
>
> Better might be size of remaining packages divided by current download
> speed.
>

If anyone implements any of these solutions I'll be glad.

Abraços

Gilberto
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+
Comment: ! https://t.me/Gilberto_F_da_Silva !
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+

iEYEARECAAYFAmOM/FMACgkQJxugWtMhGw4DogCfSgCxLhY5xly2inXKJrNqkbYB
w2QAmwYGuSvDKXZEg3TNLGlrdbss0muL
=VLRX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 2022-12-04, Gilberto F da Silva <gfs1989@gmx.net> wrote:
> TJ wrote:
>> On 2022-11-29 09:45, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>>
>>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
>>>>> not do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
>>>>> also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
>>>>> minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
>>>>> contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.
>>>>
>>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which does
>>>> not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by dividing
>>>> the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And that jumps
>>>> up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or from a HD.
>>>>
>>>> Herman Viaene
>>>
>>>     In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in
>>> Mageia
>>> distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be better to
>>> remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for the end of the
>>> installation.
>>>
>> When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
>> more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are used.
>> When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
>> simplified for the uninitiated:
>
> I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer doesn't
> work well.

What does "the installer timer works well" mean? What you wnat is
something that works well enough-- ie gives a feeling for how much more
time it will take. I have found that the Mageia install time estimate
overestimates the time remaining. That is good in my opinion. You get
finished sooner than you fear. Who cares if it is 5 or even 15 min out?
I suppose if you want to install it and reserve 2 min in your day to
finish the installation, you might be annoyed that it was sitting there
waiting for you for 15 min. But again, it is better than finding that it
still has a half hour to go, when youcome back.
Ie, you are projecting onto the person installing a psychology which I
think is inaccurate.

>
>>
>> Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
>> it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
>> This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
>> the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete the
>> installation.
>
> On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I don't
> notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
> need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
> Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.

Oh crap. It would have to estimate disk speed, cpu speed, internet
speed, etc, all of whichtake far more than.00000006 sec. NOt only that,
but all are highly variable and cannot be accurately predicted.

>
>>
>> The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
>> what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
>> time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
>> media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
>> so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
>> design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
>> timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
>> would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
>> timer that updates more often would make install from optical media take
>> even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even worse
>> than an inaccurate timer does.
>>
>
> A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
> supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
> packet remaining counter could be put in place.

I disagree. But if you do not like it,just close your eyes and ignore
it.
>

On 2022-12-04, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2022 13:00:49 -0200, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>
>> A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
>> supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
>> packet remaining counter could be put in place.
>>
>
> Yeah, but users would be upset because remain package count does not tell
> approximately how long it is going to take to completion.
>
> Better might be size of remaining packages divided by current download
> speed.

I think that is sort of what it does. But that can be a bad estimate.
The installation can be a majority of the time, rather thanthe
downloading time. And downloading time can vary by a 100%.
>

Op Sun, 04 Dec 2022 13:00:49 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:

> TJ wrote:
>> On 2022-11-29 09:45, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>>
>>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
>>>>> does not do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
>>>>> It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
>>>>> writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
>>>>> useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
>>>>> installation.
>>>>
>>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>>>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>>>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
>>>> And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
>>>> internet or from a HD.
>>>>
>>>> Herman Viaene
>>>
>>>     In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but
>>>     in
>>> Mageia distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be
>>> better to remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for
>>> the end of the installation.
>>>
>> When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
>> more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are
>> used.
>> When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
>> simplified for the uninitiated:
>
> I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer
doesn't
> work well.
>
>
>> Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
>> it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
>> This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
>> the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete
>> the installation.
>
> On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I
don't
> notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
> need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
> Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.
>
>
>> The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
>> what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
>> time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
>> media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
>> so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
>> design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
>> timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
>> would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
>> timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
>> take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
>> worse than an inaccurate timer does.
>>
>>

Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.

I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
within the time prevision it firsty displays.

Herman Viaene

On 12/5/22 08:03, Herman Viaene wrote:
> Op Sun, 04 Dec 2022 13:00:49 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>
>> TJ wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-29 09:45, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>>>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
>>>>>> does not do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
>>>>>> It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
>>>>>> writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
>>>>>> useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
>>>>>> installation.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>>>>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>>>>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
>>>>> And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
>>>>> internet or from a HD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Herman Viaene
>>>>
>>>>     In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but
>>>>     in
>>>> Mageia distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be
>>>> better to remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for
>>>> the end of the installation.
>>>>
>>> When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
>>> more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are
>>> used.
>>> When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
>>> simplified for the uninitiated:
>>
>> I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer
> doesn't
>> work well.
>>
>>
>>> Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
>>> it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
>>> This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
>>> the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete
>>> the installation.
>>
>> On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I
> don't
>> notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
>> need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
>> Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.
>>
>>
>>> The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
>>> what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
>>> time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
>>> media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
>>> so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
>>> design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
>>> timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
>>> would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
>>> timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
>>> take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
>>> worse than an inaccurate timer does.
>>>
>>>
>
> Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
> The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
>
> I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
> within the time prevision it firsty displays.
>
> Herman Viaene
>

Herman you need to do your updates to PCLinux more often. The timer is
affected by various factors including web traffic. My download
times remain fairly steady and my Synaptic updates seldom take long and
I do not remember any 18 hour wait times being shown except on big
torrents.

bliss- nearly any fool can run a GNU/Linux computer...
So here I am again...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2022-12-05, Herman Viaene <herman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Op Sun, 04 Dec 2022 13:00:49 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>
>> TJ wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-29 09:45, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>>>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
>>>>>> does not do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
>>>>>> It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
>>>>>> writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
>>>>>> useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
>>>>>> installation.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>>>>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>>>>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
>>>>> And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
>>>>> internet or from a HD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Herman Viaene
>>>>
>>>>     In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but
>>>>     in
>>>> Mageia distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be
>>>> better to remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for
>>>> the end of the installation.
>>>>
>>> When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
>>> more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are
>>> used.
>>> When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
>>> simplified for the uninitiated:
>>
>> I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer
> doesn't
>> work well.
>>
>>
>>> Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
>>> it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
>>> This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
>>> the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete
>>> the installation.
>>
>> On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I
> don't
>> notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
>> need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
>> Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.
>>
>>
>>> The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
>>> what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
>>> time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
>>> media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
>>> so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
>>> design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
>>> timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
>>> would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
>>> timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
>>> take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
>>> worse than an inaccurate timer does.
>>>
>>>
>
> Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
> The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
>
> I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
> within the time prevision it firsty displays.

Debian, openSUSE Tumbleweed.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+
Comment: ! https://t.me/Gilberto_F_da_Silva !
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+

iEYEARECAAYFAmOOnUwACgkQJxugWtMhGw4dQACdE+OdDm2/Wt761u/wg2WPKRjH
JLUAoMZcJp4W5HjLR9dZLARGgYDx7Ghh
=M1xd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2022-12-05, Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> On 12/5/22 08:03, Herman Viaene wrote:
>> Op Sun, 04 Dec 2022 13:00:49 -0200, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>
>>> TJ wrote:
>>>> On 2022-11-29 09:45, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
>>>>> Herman Viaene wrote:
>>>>>> Op Thu, 24 Nov 2022 21:09:30 -0300, schreef Gilberto F da Silva:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
>>>>>>> nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
>>>>>>> does not do it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
>>>>>>> It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
>>>>>>> writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
>>>>>>> useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
>>>>>>> installation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
>>>>>> does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
>>>>>> dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
>>>>>> And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
>>>>>> internet or from a HD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Herman Viaene
>>>>>
>>>>>     In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but
>>>>>     in
>>>>> Mageia distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be
>>>>> better to remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for
>>>>> the end of the installation.
>>>>>
>>>> When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
>>>> more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are
>>>> used.
>>>> When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
>>>> simplified for the uninitiated:
>>>
>>> I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer
>> doesn't
>>> work well.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
>>>> it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
>>>> This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
>>>> the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete
>>>> the installation.
>>>
>>> On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I
>> don't
>>> notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
>>> need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
>>> Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
>>>> what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
>>>> time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
>>>> media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
>>>> so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
>>>> design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
>>>> timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
>>>> would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
>>>> timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
>>>> take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
>>>> worse than an inaccurate timer does.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
>> The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
>>
>> I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
>> within the time prevision it firsty displays.
>>
>> Herman Viaene
>>
>
> Herman you need to do your updates to PCLinux more often. The timer is
> affected by various factors including web traffic. My download
> times remain fairly steady and my Synaptic updates seldom take long and
> I do not remember any 18 hour wait times being shown except on big
> torrents.

Well, then we have at least two distributions where the timer
doesn't work right.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+
Comment: ! https://t.me/Gilberto_F_da_Silva !
Comment: +-----------------------------------------------------+

iEYEARECAAYFAmOOoNsACgkQJxugWtMhGw7X3gCgnZXv7EywcHnnYbKCS3MwtEfY
xSUAni058NgBjtrUR1CEzsEtqg/g8SGw
=GDTc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 2022-12-04 10:00, Gilberto F da Silva wrote:
> A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
> supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
> packet remaining counter could be put in place.

I created a new Mageia 9 Plasma VirtualBox guest a couple of days ago,
using the netinstall iso. The host has a wired connection to the
Internet, so it was faster than the mirror could feed it.

The timer was actually quite accurate, better than from a usb stick.

Was it a smooth, constantly-updating timer? No. It looked to me like it
updated the timer each time a certain number of packages had been
downloaded and installed, maybe 50 or so, maybe fewer. Some packages are
downloaded and installed almost instantly, too fast to read the
"details," and the timer is updated more often. Other, larger, more
involved packages take several seconds. The kernel-firmware-nonfree
package is a good example of that.

Personally, I'm just as happy to let the counter/timer wait for the
installation of such a vital package to finish before being updated,
rather than have the install of it take a break in the middle. To me, an
accurate installation is most important, but then, apparently the
developers of "other distros" think my priorities need to be adjusted.

A simple package counter would have the same sometimes fast sometimes
slow action, depending on the packages being installed at the time.

On 2022-12-05 11:03, Herman Viaene wrote:
> Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
> The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
>
> I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
> within the time prevision it firsty displays.

The problem, if there is one, isn't limited to installers.

The battery indicator in my Plasma panel is currently telling me that
the battery is at 70%, and there is "1:38" remaining. A couple of
minutes ago it was at 72%, with "2:25" remaining. And while I was typing
this, it dropped to 69%, with "2:14" remaining.

Now, I know that this battery should be replaced, because in another
5-10 minutes it will suddenly drop to below 10% and give me a low
battery warning. But the point is, the Plasma indicator is erratic and
obviously inaccurate.

And BTW, when I look at Plasma's "energy information," it tells me the
battery "health" is 100%. Also very wrong.

And something tells me it would be the same, no matter which distro's
Plasma I might be using.

TJ

TJ wrote:
> On 2022-12-05 11:03, Herman Viaene wrote:
>> Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
>> The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
>>
>> I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
>> within the time prevision it firsty displays.
>
> The problem, if there is one, isn't limited to installers.
>
> The battery indicator in my Plasma panel is currently telling me that
> the battery is at 70%, and there is "1:38" remaining. A couple of
> minutes ago it was at 72%, with "2:25" remaining. And while I was typing
> this, it dropped to 69%, with "2:14" remaining.
>
> Now, I know that this battery should be replaced, because in another
> 5-10 minutes it will suddenly drop to below 10% and give me a low
> battery warning. But the point is, the Plasma indicator is erratic and
> obviously inaccurate.
>
> And BTW, when I look at Plasma's "energy information," it tells me the
> battery "health" is 100%. Also very wrong.
>
> And something tells me it would be the same, no matter which distro's
> Plasma I might be using.

Knowing the remaining charge of a battery is not a simple task like
looking at the level of liquid in a tank. A bottle you look at it or
pick it up to know if it's full or empty. A battery has the same
appearance and weight whether it is charged or empty.

It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the case
of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know exactly
how much is left to install.

I already understand that there are no personnel available to maintain
this program. Whoever wrote these routines has since left the project
and the program is now used as is.

--

Gilberto F da Silva

On 2022-12-07, Gilberto F da Silva <gfs1989@gmx.net> wrote:
> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
> --YVesNkbvFvVMUT5VUWxTj2TBpJHka1fdW
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="h9uwAcbyVGqOfZukjINw62uZnmierciNQ";
> protected-headers="v1"
> From: Gilberto F da Silva <gfs1989@gmx.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mageia
> Subject: Re: Mageia 9 - Installer
> References: <tlp145$ok4q$1@dont-email.me> <tlqsgu$1isi$1@gioia.aioe.org>
> <tm55um$29jlu$1@dont-email.me> <tmdv6u$35khd$1@dont-email.me>
> <tmicnb$3mr6n$1@dont-email.me> <tml4od$1h2p$1@gioia.aioe.org>
> <tmq3g6$igad$1@dont-email.me>
> In-Reply-To: <tmq3g6$igad$1@dont-email.me>
>
> --h9uwAcbyVGqOfZukjINw62uZnmierciNQ
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> TJ wrote:
>> On 2022-12-05 11:03, Herman Viaene wrote:
>>> Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.=
>
>>> The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.=
>
>>>
>>> I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes=
>
>>> within the time prevision it firsty displays.
>>=20
>> The problem, if there is one, isn't limited to installers.
>>=20
>> The battery indicator in my Plasma panel is currently telling me that
>> the battery is at 70%, and there is "1:38" remaining. A couple of
>> minutes ago it was at 72%, with "2:25" remaining. And while I was typin=
> g
>> this, it dropped to 69%, with "2:14" remaining.
>>=20
>> Now, I know that this battery should be replaced, because in another
>> 5-10 minutes it will suddenly drop to below 10% and give me a low
>> battery warning. But the point is, the Plasma indicator is erratic and
>> obviously inaccurate.
>>=20
>> And BTW, when I look at Plasma's "energy information," it tells me the
>> battery "health" is 100%. Also very wrong.
>>=20
>> And something tells me it would be the same, no matter which distro's
>> Plasma I might be using.
>
> Knowing the remaining charge of a battery is not a simple task like
> looking at the level of liquid in a tank. A bottle you look at it or
> pick it up to know if it's full or empty. A battery has the same
> appearance and weight whether it is charged or empty.
>
> It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
> computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the case
> of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know exactly
> how much is left to install.

You do not listen do you. As I have already said, it is NOT simple to
know how much time there is left to install. Downloading time varies by
orders of magnitude, depending on the congenstion between your machine
and the server, on your own computer's congestion,etc. And then there is
the installation time, which depends on many things as well.
Counting the number of files to be downloaded is a very bad estimate of
how long it will take to install them after they have been downloaded.
Counting their length similarly does not tell you what the lenght is.
Ie, you have never tried to write a program to determine what the
installation length is going to be and yet you claim yourself to be an
expert.

>
> I already understand that there are no personnel available to maintain
> this program. Whoever wrote these routines has since left the project
> and the program is now used as is.
>
>
>
> --=20
>
> Gilberto F da Silva
>
>
> --h9uwAcbyVGqOfZukjINw62uZnmierciNQ--
>
> --YVesNkbvFvVMUT5VUWxTj2TBpJHka1fdW
> Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
> Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc"
>
>
> --YVesNkbvFvVMUT5VUWxTj2TBpJHka1fdW--

On Wed, 07 Dec 2022 15:44:08 -0500, Gilberto F da Silva <gfs1989@gmx.net> wrote:
> It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
> computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the case
> of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know exactly
> how much is left to install.

Number of packages left is known.

Some of the things that are not known
- How big those packages are.
- How much cpu time install scriptlets in those packages will use
- How the write speed will vary as many storage devices have different rates
depending on where the data is physically being written.
- Spinning rust drives have different speeds for inner/outer cylinders
- ssd drives can slow down drastically if pages need to be erased between
writes
- Further complicated by "on device buffers", and write through ssd drives
backed by spinning rust, and other variations in storage hardware that
make write speed inconsistent.
- How the download rate will vary, due to contention with other network traffic
on the mirror or the lan, as well as traffic and buffer bloat anywhere in
between.

> I already understand that there are no personnel available to maintain
> this program. Whoever wrote these routines has since left the project
> and the program is now used as is.

It's not a matter of not having people capable of changing the code, though there
are only a few that could work on it.

It's a matter of what to change it to given the large number of unknowable or
difficult to compensate for variables and how much effort it would take for a
cosmetic benefit.

That effort can be better utilized elsewhere.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 07.12.2022 at 21:11, William Unruh scribbled:

> On 2022-12-07, Gilberto F da Silva <gfs1989@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > Knowing the remaining charge of a battery is not a simple task like
> > looking at the level of liquid in a tank. A bottle you look at it or
> > pick it up to know if it's full or empty. A battery has the same
> > appearance and weight whether it is charged or empty.
> >
> > It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
> > computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the
> > case of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know
> > exactly how much is left to install.
>
> You do not listen do you.

I'm detecting a fair amount of OCPD in this thread. <rolling eyes>

> As I have already said, it is NOT simple to know how much time there
> is left to install. Downloading time varies by orders of magnitude,
> depending on the congenstion between your machine and the server, on
> your own computer's congestion,etc. And then there is the
> installation time, which depends on many things as well. Counting the
> number of files to be downloaded is a very bad estimate of how long
> it will take to install them after they have been downloaded.
> Counting their length similarly does not tell you what the lenght is.
> Ie, you have never tried to write a program to determine what the
> installation length is going to be and yet you claim yourself to be
> an expert.

I have been exclusively using GNU/Linux for 23 years now, and over the
years, I have installed several GNU/Linux distributions on anything
ranging from laptops and desktops to servers. I used to rll my own
kernels — and I've never built a kernel that wouldn't boot — and I've
even dabbled with Gentoo as both dom0 and domU on the Xen hypervisor.

Not a single one of the distribution installers that had a timer was
ever accurate in its presentation of how much time was needed, and the
timer value would often be all over the place, just as when I'm making
a backup with Timeshift. Those timers are not meant to be accurate;
they are meant to be approximations only.

Clock speed, bus speed, drive latency, download speed, number of
files, file size, number of cores and/or threads, process priority,
number of running processes — e.g. running just the installer versus
running it from within a live session — and even the I/O scheduler,
there are simply too many variables. Even a kernel with real-time
patches would have difficulty catching up.

OP should drop the subject. Even Ubuntu's timer is only making a best
guess, and if that best guess happened to be close enough to the actual
time needed for installing for OP to consider that "accurate", then that
would have been a fluke.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn