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computers / news.software.nntp / Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

SubjectAuthor
* Ready-to-use installation of a news serverJulien ÉLIE
+- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serveryamo'
+- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverHenning Hucke
+* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|+- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverDoc O'Leary
|`* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverjdanield
| `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|  +* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverjdanield
|  |+- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverjdanield
|  |+* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverJulien ÉLIE
|  ||`* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverjdanield
|  || `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverJulien ÉLIE
|  ||  `- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverjdanield
|  |`* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|  | +* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverjdanield
|  | |+- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverRuss Allbery
|  | |`- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|  | `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverTed Heise
|  |  `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|  |   `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverTed Heise
|  |    `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|  |     `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverTed Heise
|  |      `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|  |       `- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverTed Heise
|  `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news servermeff
|   `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|    +* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news servermeff
|    |`- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|    `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverJohn Levine
|     `- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
+* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverJP
|`* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
| +* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news servermeff
| |`* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverRuss Allbery
| | `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news servermeff
| |  `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverRuss Allbery
| |   `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news servermeff
| |    `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
| |     `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news servermeff
| |      `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
| |       `- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news servermeff
| `* Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverRuss Allbery
|  +- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverGrant Taylor
|  `- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverDoc O'Leary
`- Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news serverJulien ÉLIE

Pages:12
Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

<slrnstmhd9.etj.theise@panix2.panix.com>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!panix!.POSTED.panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail
From: the...@panix.com (Ted Heise)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:29:27 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: My own, such as it is
Message-ID: <slrnstmhd9.etj.theise@panix2.panix.com>
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 by: Ted Heise - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 20:29 UTC

On Sun, 9 Jan 2022 11:33:34 -0700,
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> On 1/9/22 7:33 AM, Ted Heise wrote:

> Aside: I'm collecting O'Reilly CD Bookshelf books w/ CDs if
> you have any that you want to sell.

I tossed all my CDs a few years back, including v9-13 of
Slackware. Sorry. In the time since my folks passed (and
especially after cleaning out my mom's place), I've been a lot
more intent on divesting material property. Unfortunately, I
still have quite a ways to go.

> > The common theme across all books is that each uses several
> > actual UNIX (or UNIX-like) systems as the basis for the
> > overviews and recipes.
>
> I consider that to be mostly a good thing, but can have some
> down sides.
> Mostly the down side is for new people who don't have enough
> foundation to separate the different platforms. Once you are
> comfortable doing that, the wide view turns into a good thing.

I probably didn't explain that very well. They also talk about
where and how each of their selected model systems may deviate
from the others, often given specific recipes for each. See next
comment for more on this.

> > The (only slightly) more recent book I used was...
> >
> > Linux Administration Handbook, 1st Edition (2002)
> > by Evi Nemeth, Garth Snyder, Trent R. Hein
> >
> > ISBN-13: 978-0536107527
> > ISBN-10: 0536107521
>
> I don't have the 1st edition, but I do have the 2nd edition of
> the Linux Network Administrator's Guide. I believe there are
> electronic counterparts on The Linux Documentation Project's
> web site.

If this is the admin guide I'm thinking of, it's entirely
different from the books I've been describing (NB handbook vs.
guide).

In looking for an example of the way Nemeth et al. approach the
mutilple systems, I came across an online version of a more recent
edition...

https://mog.dog/files/SP2019/2017%20Nemeth%20Evi%20etal%20-%20UNIX%20and%20Linux%20System%20Administration%20Handbook%5B5thED%5D_Rell.pdf

Ugh. That looks like it (i.e., the spaces) didn't paste at all
well, maybe try this instead...

tinyurl.com/47afaswh

The cartoons at each chapter heding are a hoot. Look also (for
example) at pages 246-247 to see how they discuss one aspect of
the various systems (in this case BSD, Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat,
and CentOS) with a table for specific file locations in each.

> > Although I ended up going with Slackware (after a short time
> > dabbling in Red Hat), the books were still supremely helpful.
> > The overviews of principles and processes generally applied
> > across most other systems/distributions and at the very least
> > helped me understand what I needed to be looking for and
> > trying to accomplish in the system I was using.
>
> Yep.
>
> I've found that once you have enough of a foundation knowledge,
> you can start to differentiate the things that are OS /
> distribution specific and extract more agnostic things and
> apply them across distributions (other Linuxes) if not OSs
> (other Unixes).

Yeah, there's often a need to infer local specifics from other
systems and even guidance for the specific system. For example,
in the make process, the error messages often differ quite a lot
from what you might expect or what others might suggest. I've at
times had to make educated guess about what the issue is or even
whether it really needs to be rectified.

> > Absolutely agree. The UNIX handbook was by far my most marked
> > up version, in part because I used it first. I bought the
> > Linux handbook the next year, in part because I thought it
> > might be more helpful (it wasn't to a first approximation) and
> > in part because I just have a great love of books. Both are
> > crammed full of short printouts of various config files (all
> > heavily annotated).
>
> ACK
>
> I personally dislike marking in books. But to each their own.

I used to be that way too, and then I gradually came to believe
that it was in a way honoring the book to add my own view and
expertise. Especially for technical books. Think skin horse vs.
velveteen rabbit. That said, I have a few books that are classics
and I will not write in them.

[snip thoughtful description of documentation practices]

> > Oh that's awfully kind of you. I will keep it in mind!
>
> :-)
>
> I've had two primary email addresses over the last 20 years.
> I purposefully do not obfuscate (beyond (at) / (dot)) so that
> people can reach out to me and ask questions or offer
> corrections.
>
> I've been exchanging email with someone for the better part of
> three years after they reached out to me to ask about Sendmail
> after seeing a comment like the one above years ago.

Yeah, I decided long ago that I would not obfuscate my address,
nor would I use nyms. I fogured if I can't stand behind what I
post, I shouldn't be posting it. And if I screw up? Well, that's
what apologies and amends are for. And technology (especially
spamassassin) does really well at filtering out the cruft.

> > Finally, I still hang around on Usenet because I've run into
> > some of the most interesting people in the world here. Most
> > are pretty articulate, and usually share common interests.
> > One of the strengths of Usenet: great narrowing of topics to
> > help draw in those with common interests. I've always had
> > keen interest in how things work, and also a great love of
> > computers and systems.
>
> I completely agree.
>
> I don't think there's anything quite like it.
>
> I'm thankful that Usenet exists.

> > Sorry this got so long.
>
> Apology returned to sender as unnecessary.
>
> This is Usenet. Meaning that people can skip parts they are
> not interested in or the message in it's entirety. ;-)

Heh. Appreciated all around.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

<srfsjd$v75$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2022 16:54:22 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
Message-ID: <srfsjd$v75$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 9 Jan 2022 23:54 UTC

On 1/9/22 1:29 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
> I tossed all my CDs a few years back, including v9-13 of Slackware.

ACK

> I probably didn't explain that very well. They also talk about where
> and how each of their selected model systems may deviate from the
> others, often given specific recipes for each.

Interesting.

> If this is the admin guide I'm thinking of, it's entirely different
> from the books I've been describing (NB handbook vs. guide).

Perhaps I made a bad assumption based on a name collision between a book
title and a TLDP document title.

> In looking for an example of the way Nemeth et al. approach the
> mutilple systems, I came across an online version of a more recent
> edition...

Oh, I've seen that book in my searches online. It's definitely a
different book than I'm thinking of.

I'm thinking of the O'Reilly Linux Network Administrator's Guide (ISBN:
1-56592-400-2) it's the guy riding a horse as the animal logo.

> Ugh. That looks like it (i.e., the spaces) didn't paste at all well,
> maybe try this instead...

The first link worked for me.

> The cartoons at each chapter heding are a hoot. Look also (for
> example) at pages 246-247 to see how they discuss one aspect of the
> various systems (in this case BSD, Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, and CentOS)
> with a table for specific file locations in each.

I'll consider your testimony as an endorsement for the Unix and Linux
System Administration Handbook and consider picking up a physical copy.

I'm enjoying sitting in my rocker reading & taking notes (on my phone).

> Yeah, there's often a need to infer local specifics from other
> systems and even guidance for the specific system. For example, in
> the make process, the error messages often differ quite a lot from
> what you might expect or what others might suggest. I've at times
> had to make educated guess about what the issue is or even whether
> it really needs to be rectified.

*nod*

I find that many Linux distributions differ in where they place files,
what packages contain said files, and init scripts are the biggest
differences. Beyond that it's little things some of which have a small
impact and others have a big impact. E.g. (my understanding is)
Slackware not using PAM.

> I used to be that way too, and then I gradually came to believe that
> it was in a way honoring the book to add my own view and expertise.

I think about it more as leaving a book in the condition that I would
like to find it, or better. I dislike reading marked up books, so I
think that others will dislike it too.

Aside: Many of the used book sites that I use tend to grade unmarked
books higher than marked up books. So apparently I'm not the only one.
None of this means much though. ...

> Especially for technical books. Think skin horse vs. velveteen
> rabbit. That said, I have a few books that are classics and I will
> not write in them.

.... You use your books the way that you want to. ;-)

> Yeah, I decided long ago that I would not obfuscate my address, nor
> would I use nyms. I fogured if I can't stand behind what I post,
> I shouldn't be posting it. And if I screw up? Well, that's what
> apologies and amends are for. And technology (especially spamassassin)
> does really well at filtering out the cruft.

Yep.

> Heh. Appreciated all around.

:-)

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

<slrnstonba.arj.theise@panix2.panix.com>

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From: the...@panix.com (Ted Heise)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 16:23:06 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: My own, such as it is
Message-ID: <slrnstonba.arj.theise@panix2.panix.com>
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 by: Ted Heise - Mon, 10 Jan 2022 16:23 UTC

On Sun, 9 Jan 2022 16:54:22 -0700,
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:

> I'll consider your testimony as an endorsement for the Unix and
> Linux System Administration Handbook and consider picking up a
> physical copy.

I have nothing much more to add, other than saying I enjoyed the
exchange.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:25:09 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 15:25 UTC

Bonjour Jean-Daniel,

>> In fact, only two are really needed:
>> - incoming.conf to configure which incoming connections should be
>> considered as peers (and not readers) and therefore allowed to feed you
>> articles;
>> - newsfeeds to configure the list of newsgroups you send to each peer,
>> and you call "innfeed -y".
>
> where add the "-y"? or run this only once?

In the definition of the innfeed channel feed in newsfeeds:

innfeed!\
:!*\
:Tc,Wnm*:/usr/lib/news/bin/innfeed -y

I've put the <pathbin> path for OpenSUSE :-)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Une fois rien, c'est rien ; deux fois rien, c'est pas beaucoup, mais
pour trois fois rien, on peut déjà acheter quelque chose, et pour pas
cher. » (Raymond Devos)

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: jdd...@dodin.org (jdanield)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:02:15 +0100
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 by: jdanield - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:02 UTC

Le 14/01/2022 à 16:25, Julien ÉLIE a écrit :

> I've put the <pathbin> path for OpenSUSE :-)
>

anyway, I add links (but not to be used in config files)

news> ll | grep lr
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 10 oct. 12:04 bin -> /usr/lib/news/bin
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 10 oct. 12:04 logs -> /var/log/news
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 15 10 oct. 12:04 spool -> /var/spool/news

thanks
jdd

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: cordon-i...@hash.fyi (JP)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 03:07:31 +0530
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: JP - Fri, 14 Jan 2022 21:37 UTC

Has anyone thought of making a Docker image for a decent INN
installation? That'll bring down the barrier to entry for people who are
already using containers like me.

On 06/01/22 14:33, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Seeing how long it takes, and also how difficult it could be, for new
> users to get a working whole installation of a news server with usual
> setup, wouldn't a ready-to-use package be useful to provide in
> distributions?
>
> For instance, a package which already has enabled:
> - Cleanfeed (or PyClean)
> - top1000 stats
> - NoCeM keys
> - active newsfeeds entry for NoCeM and ninpaths
> - keys related to control.ctl
> - whole active and newsgroups file from ftp.isc.org
> - innreport with pictures and HTML archives
> - nnrpd/TLS ready with auto-renewal of certificates via certbot
> - ...
>
> The example is for INN but other news servers of course could have a
> similar packaging.
>
> I believe it is easier to de-activate the features a news admin does not
> want than having to install everything.
>
> Just a thought to share.
> Of course the remarks of package maintainers would be greatly
> appreciated :-)
>

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:03:48 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
Message-ID: <srt311$a3$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:03 UTC

On 1/14/22 2:37 PM, JP wrote:
> Has anyone thought of making a Docker image for a decent INN
> installation? That'll bring down the barrier to entry for people who are
> already using containers like me.

I have even bigger problems with Docker, et al., than I do a fully
configured server. (See my other posts in this thread.)

Containers inherit the same concerns plus they add new ones. Not the
least of which is persistent data across instantiations of the
container. Do you really want to blow away your spool and history when
you refresh the container?

Note: I'm going by what friends & colleagues say is best practice for
containers in that they should not rely on external storage.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: ema...@example.com (meff)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:37:38 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: meff - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:37 UTC

On 2022-01-15, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> Containers inherit the same concerns plus they add new ones. Not the
> least of which is persistent data across instantiations of the
> container. Do you really want to blow away your spool and history when
> you refresh the container?
>
> Note: I'm going by what friends & colleagues say is best practice for
> containers in that they should not rely on external storage.

Containers work just fine with external storage. You'll need to mount
the external storage and make sure to set permissions properly on the
external storage but that's at its worst just as hard as setting spool
and history permissions without a container. If you think about it,
any container that talks to a database _is_ depending on external
storage heh.

The mail containers can also show prior art for storing state in a
volume.

I would be a fan of a container setup. I think it would make it a lot
easier to get an INN setup going. Of course there's the question of
maintenance. It's probably a lot of work as is working on/maintaining
INN, let alone separately maintaining a container.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:42:13 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <878rvh7rtm.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:42 UTC

Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> writes:

> Containers inherit the same concerns plus they add new ones. Not the
> least of which is persistent data across instantiations of the
> container. Do you really want to blow away your spool and history when
> you refresh the container?

> Note: I'm going by what friends & colleagues say is best practice for
> containers in that they should not rely on external storage.

Uh. Well, I'm not sure what best practices guides they've been reading,
but this is not the case for services that store things, such as any
database server or, of course, a news server. Of *course* such containers
rely on external persistent storage. That's the only way you can possibly
put such software inside a container.

If you're running the container on a full container system like
Kubernetes, there is tons of built-in support for allocating and managing
that storage, ensuring that it is not deleted when the container is
replaced with a new one, etc., via, for example, PersistentVolumes. If
you're running it in a simple standalone container system on one host,
you'd normally bind-mount some host file systems into the container for
that stuff.

You'll sometimes see this "containers should not rely on external storage"
talking point when people are talking specifically about web services and
what they're worried about is someone's PHP application that uses files in
/tmp as a session database or some similar kind of anti-pattern. Web
services should normally use an external database, and if you're running
the container in some sort of hosting platform, there's usually some
database as a service thing you can use that will be way simpler and more
reliable (if more expensive) than rolling your own.

INN obviously isn't set up to use an external database (in theory it could
use an external database for overview and history and some sort of object
store for the articles, but none of that code exists), so it's more like
running your own instance of PostgreSQL in a container: you will
definitely need persistent external storage attached to the container
unless you're only using ephemeral containers for testing or CI.

Anyway, all the container platforms let you mount external storage. This
isn't the problem with containers. What I would be more worried about is
how to inject site-specific configuration, which for INN is quite complex
and which is the actual hard part of setting up INN. You would either
need to inject all of pathetc from external storage, which makes me wonder
what the container is really doing for you, or you would need to have some
mechanism to override individual files via, e.g., Kubernetes ConfigMaps,
and the mapping of that to INN configuration isn't straightforward at all.
Or I suppose every user of the INN container could build their own Docker
image based on some base image with configuration injected; that's
probably the most straightforward way to do it, but that means you'd have
to build your own container and couldn't use a standard container, which
is not normally what people are after.

Containers are primarily useful as a software delivery mechanism when
assembling that software is in some way non-trivial (lots of plugins or
libraries that need to be installed or whatnot). INN is the type of
software for which Linux distributions do this quite well and thus it's
not obvious how a container is helping. INN doesn't need exotic versions
of libraries that are unlikely to be present already in the distribution,
or some complex assemblage that the distribution doesn't already have
packaged. So I'm not sure a container is solving the hard problem with
setting up a new site, although I guess it would integrate Cleanfeed and
PGP configuration and a few things like that.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:57:36 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <874k657r3z.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 00:57 UTC

meff <email@example.com> writes:

> I would be a fan of a container setup. I think it would make it a lot
> easier to get an INN setup going. Of course there's the question of
> maintenance. It's probably a lot of work as is working on/maintaining
> INN, let alone separately maintaining a container.

Doing make install into a Docker container is easy. Adding a few things
like Cleanfeed isn't a lot harder. The hard part is what the heck to put
into the container as far as configuration, without making too many
decisions that the person running the container isn't going to agree with
(and putting aside the question of feed configuration and other inherently
site-specific things).

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:08:59 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 01:08 UTC

On 1/14/22 5:42 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
> You would either need to inject all of pathetc from external storage,
> which makes me wonder what the container is really doing for you,

Agreed.

What's more is I feel like what (little?) the container is providing
could be similarly provided by a tar ball or a script that executes OS /
distro specific install commands to install the required ~> desired
components.

> or you would need to have some mechanism to override individual
> files via, e.g., Kubernetes ConfigMaps, and the mapping of that to
> INN configuration isn't straightforward at all. Or I suppose every
> user of the INN container could build their own Docker image based
> on some base image with configuration injected; that's probably the
> most straightforward way to do it, but that means you'd have to build
> your own container and couldn't use a standard container, which is
> not normally what people are after.

And I feel like you've now added at least one order of magnitude to the
complexity while jumping the shark.

> So I'm not sure a container is solving the hard problem with setting
> up a new site, although I guess it would integrate Cleanfeed and PGP
> configuration and a few things like that.

I suspect the container is actually going to bring more baggage with it
than it helps alleviate.

What's more is that once things are in a container, they tend to become
opaque blobs meaning that people will likely have /less/ visibility into
what is happening. Sure they may see some of the config files, but
there's more to running INN than /just/ the config files.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
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 by: meff - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 01:11 UTC

On 2022-01-15, Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
> meff <email@example.com> writes:
> like Cleanfeed isn't a lot harder. The hard part is what the heck to put
> into the container as far as configuration, without making too many
> decisions that the person running the container isn't going to agree with
> (and putting aside the question of feed configuration and other inherently
> site-specific things).

I think it's fine for a container to be highly opinionated. If the
user wants to go their own way, they can edit the container or work
with INN and create their own container/systemd unit/runit script
etc. I'm thinking the container could be something like "beginner
mode" where the user opts-in to all the decisions made for them.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: eag...@eyrie.org (Russ Allbery)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:30:52 -0800
Organization: The Eyrie
Message-ID: <87tue56b03.fsf@hope.eyrie.org>
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 by: Russ Allbery - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 01:30 UTC

meff <email@example.com> writes:

> I think it's fine for a container to be highly opinionated. If the user
> wants to go their own way, they can edit the container or work with INN
> and create their own container/systemd unit/runit script etc. I'm
> thinking the container could be something like "beginner mode" where the
> user opts-in to all the decisions made for them.

That's fine so far as it goes, but to take a specific example, what groups
should the container carry? This isn't just an opinionated decision; it
really goes to the heart of why someone is running a news server. I'm
betting most people don't really want a full feed including all the
regional and language hierarchies. They may just want fr.*, for instance.

That said, the really hard part is the feed configuration and some
entirely local parameters like the site name for the Path header.
Normally in containerized software this information is injected as
parameters, via environment variables or whatnot, but INN is very much not
set up to do that, so it would require code changes (and ones that aren't
entirely obvious, such as how to configure feeds).

If I were building a news server from scratch designed to be
containerized, I'd put that sort of configuration in a database and then
provide an authenticated API to add and remove feeds. That would be nice
to have! But that's a whole project.

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Please post questions rather than mailing me directly.
<https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html> explains why.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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 by: meff - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 02:09 UTC

On 2022-01-15, Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:
> That's fine so far as it goes, but to take a specific example, what groups
> should the container carry? This isn't just an opinionated decision; it
> really goes to the heart of why someone is running a news server. I'm
> betting most people don't really want a full feed including all the
> regional and language hierarchies. They may just want fr.*, for instance.

Hm this is a good point, but I'm guessing most folks will not be
receiving a firehose when peering. It might not be the worst to offer
all newsgroups, and then offer some way to customize the newsgroups
inside the container but...

> If I were building a news server from scratch designed to be
> containerized, I'd put that sort of configuration in a database and then
> provide an authenticated API to add and remove feeds. That would be nice
> to have! But that's a whole project.

Yeah exactly. I've retrofitted some software before to work with
environment variables, and it usually involved templates and scripts
which would read environment variables on container startup and then
generate the configs from the templates. I wonder if such an approach
would be pallatable here, but yeah this is sort of working against the
design of INN.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 11:50:11 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 18:50 UTC

On 1/14/22 7:09 PM, meff wrote:
> Hm this is a good point, but I'm guessing most folks will not be
> receiving a firehose when peering. It might not be the worst to offer
> all newsgroups, and then offer some way to customize the newsgroups
> inside the container but...

You could cheat a bit. Have all ""standard (as in from ISC) newsgroups
in the active file and control feed via what a peer sends you. -- I
don't like it, but I don't see any breakage either.

> Yeah exactly. I've retrofitted some software before to work with
> environment variables, and it usually involved templates and scripts
> which would read environment variables on container startup and then
> generate the configs from the templates. I wonder if such an approach
> would be pallatable here, but yeah this is sort of working against
> the design of INN.

+10 for creativity
-100 for making things more complex when the stated task at hand is to
simplify things.
-10 for diverging from an INN config to
$CustomINNisNotSoSimplePackageConfig.

I feel like adding custom complexity is antithetical to the overall
stated goal of making INN / Usenet easier.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: ema...@example.com (meff)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 20:18:07 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: meff - Sat, 15 Jan 2022 20:18 UTC

On 2022-01-15, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> +10 for creativity
> -100 for making things more complex when the stated task at hand is to
> simplify things.
> -10 for diverging from an INN config to
> $CustomINNisNotSoSimplePackageConfig.
>
> I feel like adding custom complexity is antithetical to the overall
> stated goal of making INN / Usenet easier.

I just said it's possible lol. Any discussion of a hypothetical
container would be purely tangential to regular INN configuration, and
as I said I'm not sure this form of retrofitting is desirable in any
way. I've done it in the past when we've needed to take our own crappy
software that depends on configuration files and retrofit them for
containers, not necessarily that INN should have it. It's an exercise
bound in enterprise compromise.

To make everyone gag a little more, we used m4 to do a lot of the
templating. I have a soft spot for m4 heh.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: gtay...@tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 20:41:28 -0700
Organization: TNet Consulting
Message-ID: <ss0455$grh$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
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 by: Grant Taylor - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 03:41 UTC

On 1/15/22 1:18 PM, meff wrote:
> To make everyone gag a little more, we used m4 to do a lot of the
> templating. I have a soft spot for m4 heh.

Surprisingly, or not, m4 actually makes me like the idea more. ;-)

I've written some things that I consider to be both quite interesting in
m4. The most recent was an rwhois data management system that was
object oriented, e.g.:

router(
name(`r1a.example.net`)
ip(`192.0.2.1/24`)
ip(`198.51.100.2/24`)
ip(`203.0.113.3/24`)
)

name() was required as it identified the router.
ip() was required at least one time but could exist an indefinite number
of times. ip() also calculated the network and broadcast based on the
IP & subnet mask.

I think there were other options for router(), I don't remember off
hand. There were also other things besides rotuer(). I think I had
created network() and server().

I also has some other things that could set some defaults that could be
used if unspecified in smaller contexts, however the smaller context
would override the default if set in the context.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: ema...@example.com (meff)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 04:31:12 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: meff - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 04:31 UTC

On 2022-01-16, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> I've written some things that I consider to be both quite interesting in
> m4. The most recent was an rwhois data management system that was
> object oriented, e.g.:
>
> router(
> name(`r1a.example.net`)
> ip(`192.0.2.1/24`)
> ip(`198.51.100.2/24`)
> ip(`203.0.113.3/24`)
> )
>
> name() was required as it identified the router.
> ip() was required at least one time but could exist an indefinite number
> of times. ip() also calculated the network and broadcast based on the
> IP & subnet mask.

This is very similar to what we wrote to retrofit some of our older
PHP configs into a container, except obviously it was based around
environment variables instead of routing terms. We went with m4
because:

1. M4 has no language dependencies. A lot of templating languages out
there depend on some programming language or the other, and we wanted
something language agnostic.

2. M4 has very few library dependencies and comes with almost every
Linux distro. It adds very little bloat to our containers.

3. M4 is stable software that doesn't change. These containers host
some of our oldest code, and so we really don't want to muck with
things if not absolutely necessary.

I have a soft spot for M4 but again I'm not sure how productive this
would be lol.

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: drole...@2017usenet1.subsume.com (Doc O'Leary)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 23:16:39 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Subsume Technologies, Inc.
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 by: Doc O'Leary - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 23:16 UTC

For your reference, records indicate that
Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org> wrote:

> You'll sometimes see this "containers should not rely on external storage"
> talking point when people are talking specifically about web services and
> what they're worried about is someone's PHP application that uses files in
> /tmp as a session database or some similar kind of anti-pattern. Web
> services should normally use an external database, and if you're running
> the container in some sort of hosting platform, there's usually some
> database as a service thing you can use that will be way simpler and more
> reliable (if more expensive) than rolling your own.

In the context of databases, being “external” will be an issue for
containers if there is some migration in the shared model that is
incompatible between the software on multiple different containers. Are
there any plans in the works to do that kind of thing for INNs persistent
data? Regardless, I really don’t see containers as being the right
solution here. With sane configuration defaults and reasonable OS-level
package manager support, there’s no reason most people shouldn’t be able
to have a basic INN install running with a few clicks. Everything
significant after that is best accomplished with HOW-TOs and a few choice
configuration tweaks.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly

Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server

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From: iul...@nom-de-mon-site.com.invalid (Julien ÉLIE)
Newsgroups: news.software.nntp
Subject: Re: Ready-to-use installation of a news server
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 20:43:52 +0100
Organization: Groupes francophones par TrigoFACILE
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 by: Julien ÉLIE - Mon, 7 Mar 2022 19:43 UTC

Hi all,

> For instance, a package which already has enabled:
> - Cleanfeed (or PyClean)

Seems like a few distributions have already packaged Cleanfeed.

Fedora has legacy Marco's version:
https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/cleanfeed/tree/rawhide

PLD has latest Steve's version, and even provides a cleanfeed(8) man page:
https://git.pld-linux.org/?p=packages/cleanfeed.git;a=tree

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Chaque chêne est envahi par quantité de druides qui cueillent le gui
en travaillant dur de la serpe… » (Astérix)

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