On 18/12/2022 7:11 am, swalker wrote:
> I find that I can no longer remember the 60 passwords I have. So I
> keep a list which isn't very safe I guess. So I have decided to use a
> password manager.
> And I don't mind paying something for a good one.
>
> Anybody have a recomendation?

Excel with a password? ;)

Been using Password safe for years - excellent & free
https://sourceforge.net/projects/passwordsafe/

***

"Mr. Man-wai Chang" wrote in message
news:tnuqls$10u5b$5@toylet.eternal-september.org...

On 18/12/2022 7:11 am, swalker wrote:
> I find that I can no longer remember the 60 passwords I have. So I
> keep a list which isn't very safe I guess. So I have decided to use a
> password manager.
> And I don't mind paying something for a good one.
>
> Anybody have a recomendation?

Excel with a password? ;)

On 12/21/2022 6:30, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 18/12/2022 7:11 am, swalker wrote:
>> I find that I can no longer remember the 60 passwords I have. So I
>> keep a list which isn't very safe I guess. So I have decided to use a
>> password manager.
>> And I don't mind paying something for a good one.
>>
>> Anybody have a recomendation?

I'd be afraid of any program holding my passwords on an internet
connected device. Safer to write them out, print it for a hard copy,
and have a back up on a thumb drive.

I can't fathom having 60 different passwords. I don't think I have half
that many accounts or otherwise that need a password, and some of the
lesser important ones share a password.

> Excel with a password? ;)

On 22/12/2022 11:11 am, Michael Trew wrote:
>
> I'd be afraid of any program holding my passwords on an internet
> connected device. Safer to write them out, print it for a hard copy,
> and have a back up on a thumb drive.

I second this. Separation can be good security! That's why I disable
Lockwise of Firefox through about:config. :)

And printing passwords to a piece of paper gives you a backup. But then
you have a physical object to defend against thieves. You might also
accidentally drop it in the streets.

You might want to split the passwords into multiple parts printed on
different sheets of papers... the separation trick.

> I can't fathom having 60 different passwords. I don't think I have half
> that many accounts or otherwise that need a password, and some of the
> lesser important ones share a password.

Could be temporary accounts... :)

On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 22:11:19 -0500, Michael Trew
<michael.trew@att.net> wrote:

>On 12/21/2022 6:30, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
>> On 18/12/2022 7:11 am, swalker wrote:
>>> I find that I can no longer remember the 60 passwords I have. So I
>>> keep a list which isn't very safe I guess. So I have decided to use a
>>> password manager.
>>> And I don't mind paying something for a good one.
>>>
>>> Anybody have a recomendation?
>
>I'd be afraid of any program holding my passwords on an internet
>connected device. Safer to write them out, print it for a hard copy,
>and have a back up on a thumb drive.

Safer in some respects, but less safe in others. A burglar can steal
your hard copy or your thumb drive.

Not mention that it's far more trouble to use than a good password
manager.

In balance, I think a good password manager is a much better choice.

Note that I said a *good* password manager. I think Mr. Man-wai
Chang's suggestion of using Excel is a very poor choice.

>I can't fathom having 60 different passwords. I don't think I have half
>that many accounts or otherwise that need a password, and some of the
>lesser important ones share a password.

We are in agreement there. I don't know how many I have, but I know
it's far fewer than 60

>> Excel with a password? ;)

On 22/12/2022 10:36 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> In balance, I think a good password manager is a much better choice.
>
> Note that I said a *good* password manager. I think Mr. Man-wai
> Chang's suggestion of using Excel is a very poor choice.

How do you know wehther all those password managers were trust-worthy?
Unless of course you write your own program? :)

I will let Google talks about Excel's security!

security of password protected excel - Google Search
https://www.google.com/search?q=security+of++password+protected+excel

On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 22:11:19 -0500, Michael Trew wrote:
> I can't fathom having 60 different passwords. I don't think I have half
> that many accounts or otherwise that need a password, and some of the
> lesser important ones share a password.
>

That's your call, of course, but many people would say you're taking
unnecessary risks. The problem, of course, is that if you use the
same password for three "less important" sites, and one of them is
compromised, your password is compromised on all three.

One problem with that approach is that a "less important" site may
become more important in the future -- you might use it to make an
online purchase, for instance, or link it to your bank account.

It's quite easy to generate unique passwords using a password
manager, and not to store them in the browser or the cloud. KeePass
and some other password managers live only on your computer. The
password manager data live in a file that you can easily sync between
computers using a USB stick.

Given that it's no more work to have unique passwords than to reuse
passwords, and that it's more secure to have unique passwords ...

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 07:36:20 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
> Note that I said a *good* password manager. I think Mr. Man-wai
> Chang's suggestion of using Excel is a very poor choice.

+1

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 23:59:15 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
>
> On 22/12/2022 10:36 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
> >
> > Note that I said a *good* password manager. I think Mr. Man-wai
> > Chang's suggestion of using Excel is a very poor choice.

> I will let Google talks about Excel's security!
>
> security of password protected excel - Google Search
> https://www.google.com/search?q=security+of++password+protected+excel

The very first result from that search:

"At best, password-encrypted Excel sheets are only protected at rest,
not while opened. At worst, it's not encrypted and/or an adversary
can use one of several documented MS office password recovery
attacks."

The full article, from at StackExchange, is here
<https://preview.tinyurl.com/ExcelCred>
or in full:
<https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/260169/is-it-safe-to-
store-account-credentials-in-an-excel-sheet-protected-with-a-passw#:
~:text=At%20best%2C%20password%2Dencrypted%20Excel,MS%20office%
20password%20recovery%20attacks.>

I always love it when people post links to "support" their
statements, but the links disagree with their opinions.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 10:17:28 -0800, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Dec 2022 22:11:19 -0500, Michael Trew wrote:
>> I can't fathom having 60 different passwords. I don't think I have half
>> that many accounts or otherwise that need a password, and some of the
>> lesser important ones share a password.
>>
>
>That's your call, of course, but many people would say you're taking
>unnecessary risks. The problem, of course, is that if you use the
>same password for three "less important" sites, and one of them is
>compromised, your password is compromised on all three.
>
>One problem with that approach is that a "less important" site may
>become more important in the future -- you might use it to make an
>online purchase, for instance, or link it to your bank account.

Speaking of "less important" passwords, one of those I have is for an
app on my smart phone to change the settings on my home's thermostat.
It's also one of the passwords with the strongest requirements of how
many and what kinds of characters you have to use.

Not only is it "less important," but it's very close to being
completely unimportant. Why would anyone want to be able to change my
thermostat settings?

>It's quite easy to generate unique passwords using a password
>manager, and not to store them in the browser or the cloud. KeePass
>and some other password managers live only on your computer. The
>password manager data live in a file that you can easily sync between
>computers using a USB stick.

Yes, or better yet, over the home network that the computers are
connected to. Every night, a batch file is set to automatically copy
the KeePass file on my computer to my wife's computer. It takes no
effort on my part to keep them synced.

On 12/22/2022 10:59, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
> On 22/12/2022 10:36 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>>
>> In balance, I think a good password manager is a much better choice.
>>
>> Note that I said a *good* password manager. I think Mr. Man-wai
>> Chang's suggestion of using Excel is a very poor choice.
>
> How do you know wehther all those password managers were trust-worthy?
> Unless of course you write your own program? :)
>
> I will let Google talks about Excel's security!

I agree that I don't trust the password managers, but I also don't trust
Google or Microsoft. Any digital place which stores a multitude of
passwords is a huge target to be hacked into. As you mentioned, don't
store all of your eggs in one basket. I also don't allow browsers to
"remember" my log-in info, but to each their own.

Mr. Blake mentioned that thief could steal the hard copy or thumb drive.
If it's stored at your house, I find that exceedingly unlikely. A
burglar breaking into your house isn't looking for access to your
digital accounts (that's what program hackers are looking for). The
burglar is likely to not be tech savvy in the slightest... the thug is
looking for anything of value that he can carry, to hawk for cash, etc.

On 12/22/2022 13:17, Stan Brown wrote:
>
> One problem with that approach is that a "less important" site may
> become more important in the future -- you might use it to make an
> online purchase, for instance, or link it to your bank account.

That's a thought, but I don't do on-line banking, or anything
particularly secure. Part of that is my lack of trust in technology. I
only bank in person, and I mail checks for bills. Call me old-fashioned.

> Given that it's no more work to have unique passwords than to reuse
> passwords, and that it's more secure to have unique passwords ...

Not entirely true. I memorize all of my passwords, and it would be an
intense amount of work to memorize a plethora of very unique passwords.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2022 22:44:20 -0500, Michael Trew wrote:

> That's a thought, but I don't do on-line banking, or anything
> particularly secure. Part of that is my lack of trust in
> technology. I only bank in person, and I mail checks for bills.
> Call me old-fashioned.

That's one word for it!

In message <to386e$1kcsv$2@dont-email.me>, Michael Trew
<michael.trew@att.net> writes
<snip>
> I only bank in person, and I mail checks for bills. Call me
>old-fashioned.

How much longer will you be able to do that for, though? Banks have been
busy closing branches here in the UK over recent years, so that many
people live quite a few miles from their nearest branch. Even those that
remain are largely automated, with just one staff member remaining to
help anyone who needs it. A couple of years ago, the banks announced
that they were intending to do away with cheques, but this caused such
an uproar that they were forced to back down.
--
John Hall "Do you have cornflakes in America?"
"Well, actually, they're American."
"So what brings you to Britain then if you have cornflakes already?"
Bill Bryson: "Notes from a Small Island"

On 12/23/2022 11:48, John Hall wrote:
> In message <to386e$1kcsv$2@dont-email.me>, Michael Trew
> <michael.trew@att.net> writes
> <snip>
>> I only bank in person, and I mail checks for bills. Call me
>> old-fashioned.
>
> How much longer will you be able to do that for, though? Banks have been
> busy closing branches here in the UK over recent years, so that many
> people live quite a few miles from their nearest branch. Even those that
> remain are largely automated, with just one staff member remaining to
> help anyone who needs it. A couple of years ago, the banks announced
> that they were intending to do away with cheques, but this caused such
> an uproar that they were forced to back down.

I'm not familiar with the UK, but there are multiple different local
bank branches in my small community of about 10,000 people in the state
of Ohio, USA. I have no trouble banking in person, here. There are
always multiple tellers staffed.

On 12/23/2022 11:48 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
> On 12/23/2022 11:48, John Hall wrote:
>> In message <to386e$1kcsv$2@dont-email.me>, Michael Trew
>> <michael.trew@att.net> writes
>> <snip>
>>> I only bank in person, and I mail checks for bills. Call me
>>> old-fashioned.
>>
>> How much longer will you be able to do that for, though? Banks have been
>> busy closing branches here in the UK over recent years, so that many
>> people live quite a few miles from their nearest branch. Even those that
>> remain are largely automated, with just one staff member remaining to
>> help anyone who needs it. A couple of years ago, the banks announced
>> that they were intending to do away with cheques, but this caused such
>> an uproar that they were forced to back down.
>
> I'm not familiar with the UK, but there are multiple different local
> bank branches in my small community of about 10,000 people in the state
> of Ohio, USA. I have no trouble banking in person, here. There are
> always multiple tellers staffed.
>

I follow my father's philosophy regarding banking. He owned an
independent furniture store. He always did his store's banking at a
small, community-based bank. He did not need foreign exchange, a
correspondent bank, or anything else that Bank of America, Wells Fargo,
or the other large banks offered. Instead, he wanted to be known by
name by the staff and officers where he banked. When my father needed a
business loan to finance his inventory, it did not need a committee; it
only needed a bank officer's okay. Thus, the processing of his loans
was never delayed.

I too now deal with a relatively small bank, which has grown in recent
years. The branch where my account is based is about 10 miles away; but
they opened another branch about 6 miles away, where I can make deposits.

Yes, I pay most of my bills via the Internet. For certain bills,
however, I want at least the image of a cancelled check. This includes
tax payments, payments for home improvements, and medical payments.
Indeed, there has been more than one instance where I actually needed to
dispute a notice of a past-due bill by viewing my cancelled check and
even sending a copy.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Beyond Meat and other such vegetarian meat substitutes
represent the ultimate in ultra-processed foods. Real
meat is natural. Beyond Meat is definitely not.

On 23/12/2022 2:25 am, Stan Brown wrote:
>
> I always love it when people post links to "support" their
> statements, but the links disagree with their opinions.
>

Because I haven NEVER read the source codes of both Excel and those
password managers. And I have to be indifferent when advising.

Microsoft Excel might be too simple sometimes naive, but it's fine for
general purposes, and it's available with Micro$oft Office.

Whatever you choose, you just canNOT fight determinded attacks from
professional hackers, notably dictionary attack against any form of
password requests.

On 23/12/2022 11:41 am, Michael Trew wrote:
>
> I agree that I don't trust the password managers, but I also don't trust
> Google or Microsoft.

Maybe we should dispose of all things based on chips. They are all evil
666.... :)

On 12/23/2022 20:56, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 12/23/2022 11:48 AM, Michael Trew wrote:
>>
>> I'm not familiar with the UK, but there are multiple different local
>> bank branches in my small community of about 10,000 people in the state
>> of Ohio, USA. I have no trouble banking in person, here. There are
>> always multiple tellers staffed.
>
> I follow my father's philosophy regarding banking. He owned an
> independent furniture store. He always did his store's banking at a
> small, community-based bank. He did not need foreign exchange, a
> correspondent bank, or anything else that Bank of America, Wells Fargo,
> or the other large banks offered. Instead, he wanted to be known by
> name by the staff and officers where he banked. When my father needed a
> business loan to finance his inventory, it did not need a committee; it
> only needed a bank officer's okay. Thus, the processing of his loans
> was never delayed.

That's smart. I work part time at a local business; an antique mall in
town with a number of vendors. The mall owner does all of his banking
at the same local bank that I use. It's also nice to be able to cash my
check, drawn on the same bank; no delays or otherwise.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:56:31 -0800, David E. Ross wrote:
> Yes, I pay most of my bills via the Internet. For certain bills,
> however, I want at least the image of a cancelled check.

And does your bank not supply those? As far as I know, it's a
requirement that they must be visible on line, or else the bank must
provide a hard copy on request.

https://www.helpwithmybank.gov/help-topics/bank-accounts/statements-
records/statement-canceled-checks.html

https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/my-bankcredit-union-no-
longer-provides-copies-of-my-cancelled-checks-with-my-statement-can-
the-bankcredit-union-do-that-en-955/

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On 12/24/2022 10:18 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:56:31 -0800, David E. Ross wrote:
>> Yes, I pay most of my bills via the Internet. For certain bills,
>> however, I want at least the image of a cancelled check.
>
> And does your bank not supply those? As far as I know, it's a
> requirement that they must be visible on line, or else the bank must
> provide a hard copy on request.
>
> https://www.helpwithmybank.gov/help-topics/bank-accounts/statements-
> records/statement-canceled-checks.html
>
> https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/my-bankcredit-union-no-
> longer-provides-copies-of-my-cancelled-checks-with-my-statement-can-
> the-bankcredit-union-do-that-en-955/

The monthly statement from the bank includes a sheet of images of the
front and back of each check. That includes checks the bank cuts for
bills that I pay via the Web to recipients that do not receive
electronic payments. Initially, the bank only provided images of the
front of a check. I explained to them that, if a payment on a bill is
disputed, the payee wants to see the endorsement on the back. The bank
immediately started sending me images of both the front and the back
without charging me any fee. Actually, the account is completely no-fee
other than an annual fee for a safe-deposit box.

On the other hand, credit unions -- I also have an account with one --
are apparently prohibited from returning cancelled checks or their
images. I can still get the images via the Web for free and then save
them on my PC or print them. However, it is a bother if I want the
images of all my checks. The credit union checking account is also
no-fee.

Thus, I use the bank account if I want images and the credit union
primarily for electronic payments. I also use the bank account for
paying a few bills electronically; usually, there are only three such
bills with one coming only quarterly.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Beyond Meat and other such vegetarian meat substitutes
represent the ultimate in ultra-processed foods. Real
meat is natural. Beyond Meat is definitely not.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 20:39:51 +0800, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

> On 23/12/2022 2:25 am, Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> I always love it when people post links to "support" their statements,
>> but the links disagree with their opinions.
>>
>>
> Because I haven NEVER read the source codes of both Excel and those
> password managers. And I have to be indifferent when advising.
>
> Microsoft Excel might be too simple sometimes naive, but it's fine for
> general purposes, and it's available with Micro$oft Office.
>
> Whatever you choose, you just canNOT fight determinded attacks from
> professional hackers, notably dictionary attack against any form of
> password requests.

I disagree, a good password manager like keypass will generate random
passwords of any length. Even with a super computer breaking one is darn
near impossible. A little off topic, but the FBI couldn't get into an
Apple Cell phone.
These forums are full of people who can break passwords, recover data
from wiped hard drives etc.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 10:18:43 -0800, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:56:31 -0800, David E. Ross wrote:
>> Yes, I pay most of my bills via the Internet. For certain bills,
>> however, I want at least the image of a cancelled check.
>
>And does your bank not supply those? As far as I know, it's a
>requirement that they must be visible on line, or else the bank must
>provide a hard copy on request.

With my bank statement each month, I get images of canceled checks.
But since I almost never write a check these days, there are very few
such images. Almost all my bills are paid electronically, and usually
automatically.

On 12/25/2022 8:11 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 10:18:43 -0800, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:56:31 -0800, David E. Ross wrote:
>>> Yes, I pay most of my bills via the Internet. For certain bills,
>>> however, I want at least the image of a cancelled check.
>>
>> And does your bank not supply those? As far as I know, it's a
>> requirement that they must be visible on line, or else the bank must
>> provide a hard copy on request.
>
>
> With my bank statement each month, I get images of canceled checks.
> But since I almost never write a check these days, there are very few
> such images. Almost all my bills are paid electronically, and usually
> automatically.
>

On the Web, I can view a log of electronic payments through both my bank
and credit union. I capture a screen print of that log.

It happens that my quarterly payments of estimated federal income taxes
-- paid by check -- show in the bank's log as "ELECTRONIFIED CHECK US
TREASURY PAYMENT" along with the actual check number, date it cleared my
account, and the amount. I do not get an image of the cancelled check.
So I capture the image of the log as a PDF file and edit the file to
highlight the entry with yellow. I do this because the IRS once
disputed whether I made all four quarterly payments of estimated taxes.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Beyond Meat and other such vegetarian meat substitutes
represent the ultimate in ultra-processed foods. Real
meat is natural. Beyond Meat is definitely not.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2022 08:42:42 -0800, "David E. Ross"
<nobody@notme.invalid> wrote:

>On 12/25/2022 8:11 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 10:18:43 -0800, Stan Brown
>> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Dec 2022 17:56:31 -0800, David E. Ross wrote:
>>>> Yes, I pay most of my bills via the Internet. For certain bills,
>>>> however, I want at least the image of a cancelled check.
>>>
>>> And does your bank not supply those? As far as I know, it's a
>>> requirement that they must be visible on line, or else the bank must
>>> provide a hard copy on request.
>>
>>
>> With my bank statement each month, I get images of canceled checks.
>> But since I almost never write a check these days, there are very few
>> such images. Almost all my bills are paid electronically, and usually
>> automatically.
>>
>
>On the Web, I can view a log of electronic payments through both my bank
>and credit union. I capture a screen print of that log.
>
>It happens that my quarterly payments of estimated federal income taxes
>-- paid by check -- show in the bank's log as "ELECTRONIFIED CHECK US
>TREASURY PAYMENT" along with the actual check number, date it cleared my
>account, and the amount. I do not get an image of the cancelled check.
>So I capture the image of the log as a PDF file and edit the file to
>highlight the entry with yellow. I do this because the IRS once
>disputed whether I made all four quarterly payments of estimated taxes.

I pay my estimated taxes electronically rather than by check. One of
the reasons I do that is that I can schedule all four payments at
once, and not have to remember to make each one at the appropriate
time.

I've never had a problem with a dispute over a payment, but I did, I
assume that I could use the bank's statements to prove that I had made
them.