I've just tried to get a wifi connection at a local hospital.
My browser, Seamonkey version 2.49.3, is configured to start up with
a blank page. My standard procedure when connecting to a public wifi
hotspot is to first go to http://neverssl.com, which makes no attempt
to use HTTPS and thus allows a captive portal to intercept my request
and let me jump through the necessary hoops to connect to the wifi.

In this case, however, I got the following message from NoScript:

request {GET http://192.168.63.254:1000/fgtauth?0500ef260d32a4b8 \
<<< http://neverssl.com/, chrome://browser/content/browser.xul - 6} \
filtered by ABE: <LOCAL> Deny

To the right of this message is a button labels "Options";
if I click it, the NoScript configuration screen comes up.
I'd rather that I got the NoScript menu with the various
"Temporarily allow <url>", but that option isn't offered.
Is there a way to work around this? Note the "chrome"
reference above; since I'm trying to live in a Google-free
zone as much as possible, this is a potential problem.

I have a copy of Firefox on my machine (which I use only in emergencies
since I hate its newfangled user interface). It hasn't been configured
to use NoScript; it allowed me to get to neverssl.com and establish
wifi access, which is how I'm posting this message. Is this another
of those cases where NoScript has been rendered unusable? Are we
doomed to live in a world where we have no choice but to let JavaScript
do anything it wants? Or is there a workaround?

Thanks in advance for any advice...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

In comp.os.linux.misc, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> I've just tried to get a wifi connection at a local hospital.
> My browser, Seamonkey version 2.49.3, is configured to start up with
> a blank page. My standard procedure when connecting to a public wifi
> hotspot is to first go to http://neverssl.com, which makes no attempt
> to use HTTPS and thus allows a captive portal to intercept my request
> and let me jump through the necessary hoops to connect to the wifi.

Their wifi, their terms? I try not to use free wifi any more, preferring
cellular data away from home.

But, I'll note that I have in the past been able to get though such
portals with ssh, which means I could use lynx remotely or ssh as a
SOCKS proxy to avoid interference in http/https. (Although I recall
such portals often interfere in DNS, so having a local DNS cache for
use with SSH can be handy. I keep a few regularly visited hosts in
/etc/hosts.)

> Is there a way to work around this? Note the "chrome"
> reference above; since I'm trying to live in a Google-free
> zone as much as possible, this is a potential problem.

Is Chromium Google-free enough for you?

Elijah
------
mostly uses Firefox and lynx

On 29 Jul 2021 04:52:39 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> I've just tried to get a wifi connection at a local hospital.
> My browser, Seamonkey version 2.49.3, is configured to start up with
> a blank page. My standard procedure when connecting to a public wifi
> hotspot is to first go to http://neverssl.com, which makes no attempt
> to use HTTPS and thus allows a captive portal to intercept my request
> and let me jump through the necessary hoops to connect to the wifi.
>
> In this case, however, I got the following message from NoScript:
>
> request {GET http://192.168.63.254:1000/fgtauth?0500ef260d32a4b8 \
> <<< http://neverssl.com/, chrome://browser/content/browser.xul - 6} \
> filtered by ABE: <LOCAL> Deny
>
> To the right of this message is a button labels "Options";
> if I click it, the NoScript configuration screen comes up.
> I'd rather that I got the NoScript menu with the various
> "Temporarily allow <url>", but that option isn't offered.
> Is there a way to work around this? Note the "chrome"
> reference above; since I'm trying to live in a Google-free
> zone as much as possible, this is a potential problem.
>
> I have a copy of Firefox on my machine (which I use only in emergencies
> since I hate its newfangled user interface). It hasn't been configured
> to use NoScript; it allowed me to get to neverssl.com and establish
> wifi access, which is how I'm posting this message. Is this another
> of those cases where NoScript has been rendered unusable? Are we
> doomed to live in a world where we have no choice but to let JavaScript
> do anything it wants? Or is there a workaround?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice...

Dunno NoScript. But can you add an exception for 192.168.0.0/16 ?
--
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0

On 29/07/2021 06.52, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> In this case, however, I got the following message from NoScript:
>
> request {GET http://192.168.63.254:1000/fgtauth?0500ef260d32a4b8 \
> <<< http://neverssl.com/, chrome://browser/content/browser.xul - 6} \
> filtered by ABE: <LOCAL> Deny
>
> To the right of this message is a button labels "Options";
> if I click it, the NoScript configuration screen comes up.
> I'd rather that I got the NoScript menu with the various
> "Temporarily allow <url>", but that option isn't offered.
> Is there a way to work around this? Note the "chrome"
> reference above; since I'm trying to live in a Google-free
> zone as much as possible, this is a potential problem.

chrome there may not be related to the Chrome web browser.

Assuming you have locate installed, do:

locate chrome | grep -i firefox

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

On 2021-07-29 10:51 a.m., Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 29/07/2021 06.52, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> In this case, however, I got the following message from NoScript:
>>
>> request {GET http://192.168.63.254:1000/fgtauth?0500ef260d32a4b8 \
>> <<< http://neverssl.com/, chrome://browser/content/browser.xul - 6} \
>> filtered by ABE: <LOCAL> Deny
>>
>> To the right of this message is a button labels "Options";
>> if I click it, the NoScript configuration screen comes up.
>> I'd rather that I got the NoScript menu with the various
>> "Temporarily allow <url>", but that option isn't offered.
>> Is there a way to work around this? Note the "chrome"
>> reference above; since I'm trying to live in a Google-free
>> zone as much as possible, this is a potential problem.
>
> chrome there may not be related to the Chrome web browser.

Exactly. The "chrome://" in the reference has nothing to do with the
Google browser of the same name. The chrome:// protocol pre-dates
Google's browser and refers to the user interface in Mozilla browsers.
There is no "potential problem" here, since the chrome:// reference is
to an .xul file that is part of your existing browser; you can stay
"Google-free".

I know that doesn't answer the actual question....

On 2021-07-29, John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart@personalprojects.net> wrote:

> On 2021-07-29 10:51 a.m., Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> On 29/07/2021 06.52, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> In this case, however, I got the following message from NoScript:
>>>
>>> request {GET http://192.168.63.254:1000/fgtauth?0500ef260d32a4b8 \
>>> <<< http://neverssl.com/, chrome://browser/content/browser.xul - 6} \
>>> filtered by ABE: <LOCAL> Deny
>>>
>>> To the right of this message is a button labels "Options";
>>> if I click it, the NoScript configuration screen comes up.
>>> I'd rather that I got the NoScript menu with the various
>>> "Temporarily allow <url>", but that option isn't offered.
>>> Is there a way to work around this? Note the "chrome"
>>> reference above; since I'm trying to live in a Google-free
>>> zone as much as possible, this is a potential problem.
>>
>> chrome there may not be related to the Chrome web browser.
>
> Exactly. The "chrome://" in the reference has nothing to do with the
> Google browser of the same name. The chrome:// protocol pre-dates
> Google's browser and refers to the user interface in Mozilla browsers.
> There is no "potential problem" here, since the chrome:// reference is
> to an .xul file that is part of your existing browser; you can stay
> "Google-free".
>
> I know that doesn't answer the actual question....

Actually, it's close enough. Damned ambiguous terminology...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?

Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.

So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.

For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
won't be able to implement any of that.

May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
to bleach and recycle newsprint.

This is the world we have made.

As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
"Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
left side of the spectrum ...

On 2021-07-31, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
> Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
> work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?

Here we are, usenet.
>
> Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
> SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.

For purpose of serving tageted ads.

>
> So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
> is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.
>

North Korea ->
China ->
In China, they used github to spread truth about Covid there...
And they shutted down even that.

> For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
> cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
> it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
> won't be able to implement any of that.
>
> May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
> Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
> they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
> probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
> coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
> sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
> paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
> to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
> to bleach and recycle newsprint.
>
> This is the world we have made.
>
> As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
> ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
> "Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
> to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
> the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
> left side of the spectrum ...

Well except anti smoking lobbist and LGBT lobbists,
and Marijuana lobbists, and other lobbists, you are free :P

>

--
bmaxa now listens Radio Student 100.5 FM, Zagreb, Croatia

On 7/30/21 10:19 PM, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
> On 2021-07-31, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
>> Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
>> work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?
>
> Here we are, usenet.
>>
>> Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
>> SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.
>
> For purpose of serving tageted ads.
>
>>
>> So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
>> is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.
>>
>
> North Korea ->
> China ->
> In China, they used github to spread truth about Covid there...
> And they shutted down even that.
>
>> For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
>> cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
>> it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
>> won't be able to implement any of that.
>>
>> May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
>> Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
>> they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
>> probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
>> coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
>> sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
>> paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
>> to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
>> to bleach and recycle newsprint.
>>
>> This is the world we have made.
>>
>> As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
>> ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
>> "Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
>> to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
>> the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
>> left side of the spectrum ...
>
> Well except anti smoking lobbist and LGBT lobbists,
> and Marijuana lobbists, and other lobbists, you are free :P
>

Exactly how do the proponents of any interest
Enslave you?
On Usenet?

Perhaps you are using a less adaptable tool
than Thunderbird which I can set to ignore any
thread I find boring or distasteful?

bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
here I am...

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> I've just tried to get a wifi connection at a local hospital.
> My browser, Seamonkey version 2.49.3, is configured to start up with
> a blank page. My standard procedure when connecting to a public wifi
> hotspot is to first go to http://neverssl.com, which makes no attempt
> to use HTTPS and thus allows a captive portal to intercept my request
> and let me jump through the necessary hoops to connect to the wifi.
>
> In this case, however, I got the following message from NoScript:
>
> request {GET http://192.168.63.254:1000/fgtauth?0500ef260d32a4b8 \
> <<< http://neverssl.com/, chrome://browser/content/browser.xul - 6} \
> filtered by ABE: <LOCAL> Deny
>
> To the right of this message is a button labels "Options";
> if I click it, the NoScript configuration screen comes up.
> I'd rather that I got the NoScript menu with the various
> "Temporarily allow <url>", but that option isn't offered.
> Is there a way to work around this? Note the "chrome"
> reference above; since I'm trying to live in a Google-free
> zone as much as possible, this is a potential problem.
>
> I have a copy of Firefox on my machine (which I use only in emergencies
> since I hate its newfangled user interface). It hasn't been configured
> to use NoScript; it allowed me to get to neverssl.com and establish
> wifi access, which is how I'm posting this message. Is this another
> of those cases where NoScript has been rendered unusable? Are we
> doomed to live in a world where we have no choice but to let JavaScript
> do anything it wants? Or is there a workaround?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice...
>

It's Application Boundary Enforcer.

I've had the same problem, my solution is to go to noscript prefs and
disable ABE. You can apparently create rules for it, but I haven't a
clue how to & since I also haven't a clue as to what it actually does
disabling it seems reasonable.

On 07/31/2021 01:19 AM, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
> On 2021-07-31, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
>> Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
>> work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?
>
> Here we are, usenet.

How many ISPs still even offer it ? Almost NO
decent anonymous providers anymore either.
Usenet is vulnerable to being squeezed out.
I think the only reason it still exists is
because it's rather obscure.

>> Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
>> SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.
>
> For purpose of serving tageted ads.

Bad enough - but there is other WORSE stuff.

>> So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
>> is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.
>>
>
> North Korea ->
> China ->
> In China, they used github to spread truth about Covid there...
> And they shutted down even that.
>
>> For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
>> cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
>> it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
>> won't be able to implement any of that.
>>
>> May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
>> Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
>> they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
>> probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
>> coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
>> sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
>> paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
>> to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
>> to bleach and recycle newsprint.
>>
>> This is the world we have made.
>>
>> As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
>> ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
>> "Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
>> to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
>> the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
>> left side of the spectrum ...
>
> Well except anti smoking lobbist and LGBT lobbists,
> and Marijuana lobbists, and other lobbists, you are free :P

There are lobbyists for every "great cause" ... and
most have something in common, they want to TAKE AWAY
your options. Doesn't matter if they are commercial,
political or religious, left,right or whatever.

On 07/31/2021 10:25 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 7/30/21 10:19 PM, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
>> On 2021-07-31, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
>>> Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
>>> work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?
>>
>> Here we are, usenet.
>>>
>>> Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
>>> SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.
>>
>> For purpose of serving tageted ads.
>>
>>>
>>> So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
>>> is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.
>>>
>>
>> North Korea ->
>> China ->
>> In China, they used github to spread truth about Covid there...
>> And they shutted down even that.
>>
>>> For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
>>> cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
>>> it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
>>> won't be able to implement any of that.
>>>
>>> May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
>>> Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
>>> they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
>>> probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
>>> coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
>>> sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
>>> paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
>>> to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
>>> to bleach and recycle newsprint.
>>>
>>> This is the world we have made.
>>>
>>> As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
>>> ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
>>> "Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
>>> to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
>>> the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
>>> left side of the spectrum ...
>>
>> Well except anti smoking lobbist and LGBT lobbists,
>> and Marijuana lobbists, and other lobbists, you are free :P
>>
>
>     Exactly how do the proponents of any interest
> Enslave you?
>      On Usenet?
>
>     Perhaps you are using a less adaptable tool
> than Thunderbird which I can set to ignore any
> thread I find boring or distasteful?
>
> bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
> here I am...

Simply not seeing what you don't want to see is NOT
"freedom" or real "empowerment" - it's just a deeper
hole in the ground.

The PROBLEM is that free and unexploited net access
is GOING AWAY. You will be USED, DIRECTED, CENSORED,
EXPLOTED, MONITORED - or you disconnect entirely.

So, contemplate a disconnected existence. How do you
get your messages and facts in and out ??? Ham
radio ? Easy to pinpoint transmitters. Not even
so easy to distribute pamphlets and such anymore,
surveillance cams are EVERYWHERE - they'll SEE
you handing out the literature, face-rec will
positively identify you. We've really let it get
THAT bad. Hope you don't let Alexa and friends
into your home or leave your phone on all the
time or have IOT devices .....

Even in Win-2k you could find, rather plainly labeled,
NSA backdoors in the registry. 21 YEARS ago ! I wonder
what they've quietly slipped into Linux kernels by now ?
The systems are now SO large that spotting subtle
backdoors and monitoring options is nearly impossible.

MIGHT be better off moving to "dead" systems - BeOS
or Plan-9, that nobody updates anymore.

On 2021-08-01, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
> On 07/31/2021 10:25 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 7/30/21 10:19 PM, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-31, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
>>>> Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
>>>> work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?
>>>
>>> Here we are, usenet.
>>>>
>>>> Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
>>>> SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.
>>>
>>> For purpose of serving tageted ads.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
>>>> is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> North Korea ->
>>> China ->
>>> In China, they used github to spread truth about Covid there...
>>> And they shutted down even that.
>>>
>>>> For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
>>>> cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
>>>> it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
>>>> won't be able to implement any of that.
>>>>
>>>> May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
>>>> Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
>>>> they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
>>>> probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
>>>> coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
>>>> sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
>>>> paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
>>>> to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
>>>> to bleach and recycle newsprint.
>>>>
>>>> This is the world we have made.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
>>>> ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
>>>> "Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
>>>> to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
>>>> the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
>>>> left side of the spectrum ...
>>>
>>> Well except anti smoking lobbist and LGBT lobbists,
>>> and Marijuana lobbists, and other lobbists, you are free :P
>>>
>>
>>     Exactly how do the proponents of any interest
>> Enslave you?
>>      On Usenet?
>>
>>     Perhaps you are using a less adaptable tool
>> than Thunderbird which I can set to ignore any
>> thread I find boring or distasteful?
>>
>> bliss - 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
>> here I am...
>
> Simply not seeing what you don't want to see is NOT
> "freedom" or real "empowerment" - it's just a deeper
> hole in the ground.
>
> The PROBLEM is that free and unexploited net access
> is GOING AWAY. You will be USED, DIRECTED, CENSORED,
> EXPLOTED, MONITORED - or you disconnect entirely.
>
> So, contemplate a disconnected existence. How do you
> get your messages and facts in and out ??? Ham
> radio ? Easy to pinpoint transmitters. Not even
> so easy to distribute pamphlets and such anymore,
> surveillance cams are EVERYWHERE - they'll SEE
> you handing out the literature, face-rec will
> positively identify you. We've really let it get
> THAT bad. Hope you don't let Alexa and friends
> into your home or leave your phone on all the
> time or have IOT devices .....
>
> Even in Win-2k you could find, rather plainly labeled,
> NSA backdoors in the registry. 21 YEARS ago ! I wonder
> what they've quietly slipped into Linux kernels by now ?
It can't sleep, kernel is regularly maintained and patches
from whoever must pass review. Only if reviewer don't want
to look just merges blindly...

> The systems are now SO large that spotting subtle
> backdoors and monitoring options is nearly impossible.
>
Nope, they are large, but you monitor patches, not oll code.

> MIGHT be better off moving to "dead" systems - BeOS
> or Plan-9, that nobody updates anymore.
Nope. if you have Intel system, rather disable ME (needs some
flash hacking :P

--
bmaxa now listens rts_4

On 7/31/21 9:14 PM, Mainspring wrote:
> On 07/31/2021 01:19 AM, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
>> On 2021-07-31, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
>>> Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
>>> work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?
>>
>> Here we are, usenet.
>
>   How many ISPs still even offer it ? Almost NO
>   decent anonymous providers anymore either.
>   Usenet is vulnerable to being squeezed out.
>   I think the only reason it still exists is
>   because it's rather obscure.
>
>
>>> Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
>>> SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.
>>
>> For purpose of serving tageted ads.
>
>   Bad enough - but there is other WORSE stuff.
>
>>> So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
>>> is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.
>>>
>>
>> North Korea ->
>> China ->
>> In China, they used github to spread truth about Covid there...
>> And they shutted down even that.
>>
>>> For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
>>> cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
>>> it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
>>> won't be able to implement any of that.
>>>
>>> May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
>>> Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
>>> they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
>>> probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
>>> coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
>>> sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
>>> paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
>>> to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
>>> to bleach and recycle newsprint.
>>>
>>> This is the world we have made.
>>>
>>> As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
>>> ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
>>> "Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
>>> to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
>>> the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
>>> left side of the spectrum ...
>>
>> Well except anti smoking lobbist and LGBT lobbists,
>> and Marijuana lobbists, and other lobbists, you are free :P
>
>   There are lobbyists for every "great cause" ... and
>   most have something in common, they want to TAKE AWAY
>   your options. Doesn't matter if they are commercial,
>   political or religious, left,right or whatever.
>

Your fear of discourse that extends the
freedom of previously repressed groups is interesting.
I personally have no interest in the extension of
commercial interests or religious discourse to the
Usenet.

The options being removed in real life are
largely anti-social as was the right to lynch gays
and similar people along with Blacks, Jews and
Catholics are rights or wrongs grieved by many on
the Right.
Fathers used to have the right to kill any family
member to whom they took exception. That right
extended to the people they owned. The repeal of
the right to own people is the result of another
great cause promoted by the media of the time.

Well there have many Great Causes that
were failures. Prohibition of Alcohol and the
further prohibition of less popular drugs did
not result in what was thought desirable i.e.
cessation of drunken abuse of family members.
Instead it enriched criminals giving them funds
for corruption of Judges and Legislators among
other influential members of society. This
gave unethical people control of drug supply
those being legislators and other criminal
types. The enforcement of drug laws was so
corrupt that J.Edgar Hoover stayed away from it.
JEH was one of the most closeted queens of the
20th century maintaining position at the FBI
by using it to keep politicians in line thru
the threat of disclosing information on the party
concerned.

Selah!

Up too late!

bliss- 'Nearly any fool can use a Linux computer. Many do.' After all
here I am...

On 08/01/2021 01:21 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 7/31/21 9:14 PM, Mainspring wrote:
>> On 07/31/2021 01:19 AM, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:
>>> On 2021-07-31, Mainspring <MSpr@zeex.net> wrote:
>>>> Ah ... remember when they said the internet could always
>>>> work around "damage", censorship and restriction ?
>>>
>>> Here we are, usenet.
>>
>>    How many ISPs still even offer it ? Almost NO
>>    decent anonymous providers anymore either.
>>    Usenet is vulnerable to being squeezed out.
>>    I think the only reason it still exists is
>>    because it's rather obscure.
>>
>>
>>>> Well, now there are MASSIVE $$$ in tracking/spying and
>>>> SELLING that info to parties, including very bad actors.
>>>
>>> For purpose of serving tageted ads.
>>
>>    Bad enough - but there is other WORSE stuff.
>>
>>>> So, for most purposes, consider the net to be DEAD. It
>>>> is not freedom, but slavery and oppression and exploitation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> North Korea ->
>>> China ->
>>> In China, they used github to spread truth about Covid there...
>>> And they shutted down even that.
>>>
>>>> For a little (very little) while yet you can probably
>>>> cobble together ever more complex workarounds - but
>>>> it's not going to last. Worse, 99.999% of humanity
>>>> won't be able to implement any of that.
>>>>
>>>> May I suggest, horrors !, printing presses and snail mail ?
>>>> Back to the 1770s. Oh, don't use modern printers because
>>>> they all put ID dots on your pages. A 3-D printer can
>>>> probably make printing plates - you know, the kind you
>>>> coat with INK (preferably home-made) and press on
>>>> sheets of paper. Wouldn't be surprised if commercial
>>>> paper has 'tags" in it too these days - might have
>>>> to make your own the old-fashioned way or find ways
>>>> to bleach and recycle newsprint.
>>>>
>>>> This is the world we have made.
>>>>
>>>> As usual, "easy" created greater horrors than
>>>> ever before. Just wait until the Chinese and/or
>>>> "Woke" fully leverage todays net environment
>>>> to identify "enemies". Read testimonies from
>>>> the Uighurs in China. And that's just the far
>>>> left side of the spectrum ...
>>>
>>> Well except anti smoking lobbist and LGBT lobbists,
>>> and Marijuana lobbists, and other lobbists, you are free :P
>>
>>    There are lobbyists for every "great cause" ... and
>>    most have something in common, they want to TAKE AWAY
>>    your options. Doesn't matter if they are commercial,
>>    political or religious, left,right or whatever.
>>
>
>     Your fear of discourse that extends the
> freedom of previously repressed groups is interesting.
> I personally have no interest in the extension of
> commercial interests or religious discourse to the
> Usenet.
>
>     The options being removed in real life are
> largely anti-social

WHOSE definition of "social" ???

That's the bit - people tend to pick a "side"
and work to silence all others.

Usenet really doesn't have any "side" - a relatively
free forum. The "sides" can't STAND that and will
always come up with reasons to drop Usenet. It's
mostly worked. The $$$ aspect of restricted forums
plays heavily into this too.

So, a few more years, no more Usenet. Better find
ways to create a new service, harder to disappear,
with similar properties.

And is this "off topic" ? Dunno, not really.
Any new, indestructable, service is going to
be built on a Linux/Unix backbone. Would you
trust Win/Mac ? Too many backdoor ways to
attack.

Oh yea, where/how to host the New Usenet ? Has
to be so broad and general that it cannot be
targeted by lawsuits, governments, activists,
fanatics. There's a design challenge if there
ever was one.

On 02.08.21 06:22, Mainspring wrote:
>
>   Oh yea, where/how to host the New Usenet ? Has
>   to be so broad and general that it cannot be
>   targeted by lawsuits, governments, activists,
>   fanatics. There's a design challenge if there
>   ever was one.
>

You could make it based on some kind of blockchain: everyone who wants
downloads a node and the hashing would prove the integrity of the node.
The messages are all contained in the blocks and can be retrieved by a
proper software. Posting new messages would be like the "transactions"
of blockchains are now.
You could even give some kind of anonimity to the users.
If there are enough people willing to host a node on their computer,
then lawsuits and governments can say goodbye to control. That's freedom
of peach on steroids, but it comes at a price (or, better said, it has a
downside).

On 02.08.21 18:27, Andrea Croci wrote:
> On 02.08.21 06:22, Mainspring wrote:
>>
>>    Oh yea, where/how to host the New Usenet ? Has
>>    to be so broad and general that it cannot be
>>    targeted by lawsuits, governments, activists,
>>    fanatics. There's a design challenge if there
>>    ever was one.
>>
>
> You could make it based on some kind of blockchain: everyone who wants
> downloads a node and the hashing would prove the integrity of the node.
> The messages are all contained in the blocks and can be retrieved by a
> proper software. Posting new messages would be like the "transactions"
> of blockchains are now.
> You could even give some kind of anonimity to the users.
> If there are enough people willing to host a node on their computer,
> then lawsuits and governments can say goodbye to control. That's freedom
> of peach on steroids, but it comes at a price (or, better said, it has a
> downside).
I obviously meant "freedom of speach". :D

On 08/02/2021 12:27 PM, Andrea Croci wrote:
> On 02.08.21 06:22, Mainspring wrote:
>>
>>    Oh yea, where/how to host the New Usenet ? Has
>>    to be so broad and general that it cannot be
>>    targeted by lawsuits, governments, activists,
>>    fanatics. There's a design challenge if there
>>    ever was one.
>>
>
> You could make it based on some kind of blockchain:

Remember though - Joe Average has to be able to use it.
The idea is a general-use uncensored forum. Text-only
is just fine, indeed superior for certain reasons.

As such, it's not so much the content that has to be
obscured/protected but ACCESS.

In short, it has to be generally hosted - hundreds or
thousands of "hosts" that you can bring up http. Access
via TOR-like portals around the world is a must. Any
one, or several, countries might be out to block all
access and/or persecute users. It HAS to be unblockable
and untraceable enough to meet that challenge.

CAN that be done ? Can it beat current and near-future
censorship threats ??? This is of the level of a
cyberwar-resistant military communications system.

> downloads a node and the hashing would prove the integrity of the node.
> The messages are all contained in the blocks and can be retrieved by a
> proper software. Posting new messages would be like the "transactions"
> of blockchains are now.
> You could even give some kind of anonimity to the users.
> If there are enough people willing to host a node on their computer,
> then lawsuits and governments can say goodbye to control. That's freedom
> of peach on steroids, but it comes at a price (or, better said, it has a
> downside).

On 08/02/2021 01:05 PM, Andrea Croci wrote:
> On 02.08.21 18:27, Andrea Croci wrote:
>> On 02.08.21 06:22, Mainspring wrote:
>>>
>>>    Oh yea, where/how to host the New Usenet ? Has
>>>    to be so broad and general that it cannot be
>>>    targeted by lawsuits, governments, activists,
>>>    fanatics. There's a design challenge if there
>>>    ever was one.
>>>
>>
>> You could make it based on some kind of blockchain: everyone who wants
>> downloads a node and the hashing would prove the integrity of the node.
>> The messages are all contained in the blocks and can be retrieved by a
>> proper software. Posting new messages would be like the "transactions"
>> of blockchains are now.
>> You could even give some kind of anonimity to the users.
>> If there are enough people willing to host a node on their computer,
>> then lawsuits and governments can say goodbye to control. That's
>> freedom of peach on steroids, but it comes at a price (or, better
>> said, it has a downside).
> I obviously meant "freedom of speach". :D

See my previous post.

Freedom Of Speech cannot happen unless there is
Freedom Of ACCESS. Assume the USA, EU and China
all want to destroy said system. How to keep
them from doing so ???

On 03.08.21 07:25, Mainspring wrote:
>
>   Remember though - Joe Average has to be able to use it.
>   The idea is a general-use uncensored forum. Text-only
>   is just fine, indeed superior for certain reasons.
>
>   As such, it's not so much the content that has to be
>   obscured/protected but ACCESS.
>
>   In short, it has to be generally hosted - hundreds or
>   thousands of "hosts" that you can bring up http. Access
>   via TOR-like portals around the world is a must. Any
>   one, or several, countries might be out to block all
>   access and/or persecute users. It HAS to be unblockable
>   and untraceable enough to meet that challenge.
>
>   CAN that be done ? Can it beat current and near-future
>   censorship threats ??? This is of the level of a
>   cyberwar-resistant military communications system.
>
>

Then you also have to have your own landlines. And they could cut those
too. You do it wireless... they scramble it. You do it laser... they
block it.
Plus, if Joe Average has access to it, so does Jim NSAman.
So, in short, the answer is: no, it can't be done!

On 08/03/2021 03:05 AM, Andrea Croci wrote:
> On 03.08.21 07:25, Mainspring wrote:
>>
>>    Remember though - Joe Average has to be able to use it.
>>    The idea is a general-use uncensored forum. Text-only
>>    is just fine, indeed superior for certain reasons.
>>
>>    As such, it's not so much the content that has to be
>>    obscured/protected but ACCESS.
>>
>>    In short, it has to be generally hosted - hundreds or
>>    thousands of "hosts" that you can bring up http. Access
>>    via TOR-like portals around the world is a must. Any
>>    one, or several, countries might be out to block all
>>    access and/or persecute users. It HAS to be unblockable
>>    and untraceable enough to meet that challenge.
>>
>>    CAN that be done ? Can it beat current and near-future
>>    censorship threats ??? This is of the level of a
>>    cyberwar-resistant military communications system.
>>
>>
>
> Then you also have to have your own landlines. And they could cut those
> too. You do it wireless... they scramble it. You do it laser... they
> block it.

The core HAS to be satellite - those little dishes.
StarLink is up now ... and there are numerous other
channels that can be run in parallel. Best to use
several countries resources - preferably countries
that are antagonistic towards each other.

There's the other advantage of text-only ... extremely
low data volume and it doesn't matter if there is a
few seconds delay. You read a Usenet message - and then
reply in a separate window. No flashing ads or videos
coming in to eat bandwidth or make delays annoying.

On the 'last mile', yes, many will have to use
hardlines - but selectively blocking content on
those has proven extremely difficult for a variety
of legal/practical reasons. They can't stop the
ransomware people, or the spammers or extremists
left right or whatever.

> Plus, if Joe Average has access to it, so does Jim NSAman.
> So, in short, the answer is: no, it can't be done!

Just means you haven't TRIED :-)

Oh, and if it really really CAN'T be done, kiss
liberty and reality goodbye. It's actually reaching
that level. We WILL be back to printing leaflets
on scrap paper using cow dung as ink ... and the
face-ID will identify you when you try to distribute
the info.

Free flow of info and opinion is THE challenge of
the 21st century. Forget global warming - life won't
be worth living if the totalitarians get a permanent
foot-hold.

I once saw a term - "Surreality" or "Dali-ocracy" -
to describe our modern "reality". This is very
very very BAD. Without trustworthy facts and
perspective you CANNOT make rational decisions.

So, how to construct the (mostly) unblockable
comm system ???