While most distros have submitted to the systemd decrees of RedHat,
there is one distro that not only resists but that also offers systemd-less
forks of critical GNU/Linux components. That distro is Gentoo.

For the standalone workstation, static device nodes are extremely
preferable, but certain autocratic projects, such as freedesktop.org,
have made it very difficult for the do-it-yourself user (in the Jeffersonian
sense) to continue in the traditional avenues of GNU/Linux deployment.

But the developers at Gentoo have come to the rescue of DIY users
by providing functional alternatives to the egregious hegemony of
systemd. Gentoo alone provides eudev and other similar forks to
those who eschew the odious systemd but must keep abreast of
the latest (and truly fascist) changes.

We all owe a great debt to the developers at Gentoo for keeping
GNU/Linux open and free in spite of the fashionable push to blindly
adopt the whims of RedHat.

--

Systemd free. D.E. free.

Always and forever.

On 08/18/2021 07:25 PM, F Russell wrote:
> While most distros have submitted to the systemd decrees of RedHat,
> there is one distro that not only resists but that also offers systemd-less
> forks of critical GNU/Linux components. That distro is Gentoo.

Gentoo is OK, but sometimes a bit too "do it yourself"
for practical convenience. Fine for "hobbyists" doing it
for fun, but for "get the server going TODAY" edicts,
maybe not so much.

There are a few other distros that cut out systemd too.

SystemD is not "evil" per-se. However it is rather opaque
and an over-complication in most situations. It has a slight
stench of Windows about it too. It makes you wonder just
WHAT it's doing in the background - when you want to be SURE.

You CAN de-systemd other distros if you want. A bit messy
but it CAN be done.

> For the standalone workstation, static device nodes are extremely
> preferable, but certain autocratic projects, such as freedesktop.org,
> have made it very difficult for the do-it-yourself user (in the Jeffersonian
> sense) to continue in the traditional avenues of GNU/Linux deployment.
>
> But the developers at Gentoo have come to the rescue of DIY users
> by providing functional alternatives to the egregious hegemony of
> systemd. Gentoo alone provides eudev and other similar forks to
> those who eschew the odious systemd but must keep abreast of
> the latest (and truly fascist) changes.
>
> We all owe a great debt to the developers at Gentoo for keeping
> GNU/Linux open and free in spite of the fashionable push to blindly
> adopt the whims of RedHat.
>
>

On 8/18/21 21:32, SixOverFive wrote:
> On 08/18/2021 07:25 PM, F Russell wrote:
>> While most distros have submitted to the systemd decrees of RedHat,
>> there is one distro that not only resists but that also offers
>> systemd-less
>> forks of critical GNU/Linux components.  That distro is Gentoo.
>
>   Gentoo is OK,  but sometimes a bit too "do it yourself"
>   for practical convenience. Fine for "hobbyists" doing it
>   for fun, but for "get the server going TODAY" edicts,
>   maybe not so much.
>
>   There are a few other distros that cut out systemd too.
>
>   SystemD is not "evil" per-se. However it is rather opaque
>   and an over-complication in most situations. It has a slight
>   stench of Windows about it too. It makes you wonder just
>   WHAT it's doing in the background - when you want to be SURE.
>
>   You CAN de-systemd other distros if you want. A bit messy
>   but it CAN be done.
>
>> For the standalone workstation, static device nodes are extremely
>> preferable, but certain autocratic projects, such as freedesktop.org,
>> have made it very difficult for the do-it-yourself user (in the
>> Jeffersonian
>> sense) to continue in the traditional avenues of GNU/Linux deployment.
>>
>> But the developers at Gentoo have come to the rescue of DIY users
>> by providing functional alternatives to the egregious hegemony of
>> systemd.  Gentoo alone provides eudev and other similar forks to
>> those who eschew the odious systemd but must keep abreast of
>> the latest (and truly fascist) changes.
>>
>> We all owe a great debt to the developers at Gentoo for keeping
>> GNU/Linux open and free in spite of the fashionable push to blindly
>> adopt the whims of RedHat.
>>
Hurray for Gentoo and for Devuan as well but I used systemd under
Mageia in its early days and as a result went to PCLinuxOS 64.
PCLinuxOS does not have a big name but a consistent policy of packaging
without letting systemd's nose under the tent. A rolling release that
lets us experience the latest updates even if we have a bit of trouble
with them from time to time. Linux 4.13.12, Thunderbird 91.0.1 and
Firefox 91.0.1 and the latest of KDE's Plasma 5. We have an Forum
with the feel of an old fashioned BBS and a wide range of posters
from artists in various ways, coders and testers and fools like
me. Free registration <https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php>

bliss - boots & runs a Pretty Cool Linux Operating System aka pclinuxos.

How do they get the hurricanes to arrive in alphabetical order?...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 13:25:42 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

>
> I agree w/ bravo and kudo/s to Gentoo dev/s. But, that strategy is for
> a relatively small cadre/niche.
>

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

Is it not the function of a democracy to protect its minorities from the
tyranny of the majority?

>
> I'm even /more/ glad that linux is *actually* such a much broader
> spectrum than Gentoo's,
>

I fail to comprehend your meaning. What can be broader than
Gentoo? In comparison, the majority of GNU/Linux distros are
severely circumscribed. Gentoo is dedicated to allowing user
choice and control. Are there others (besides Exherbo or LFS)
that practice this philosophy?

But Gentoo has been getting somewhat less flexible of late and
I am considering a move to Linux From Scratch. The only problem
is that LFS has no stable automated build system.

Other than Gentoo, or user DIY, no distro offers the user freedom
of choice and that sad fact subverts the entire FOSS movement.

--

Systemd free. D.E. free.

Always and forever.

On 08/19/2021 01:15 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 8/18/21 21:32, SixOverFive wrote:
>> On 08/18/2021 07:25 PM, F Russell wrote:
>>> While most distros have submitted to the systemd decrees of RedHat,
>>> there is one distro that not only resists but that also offers
>>> systemd-less
>>> forks of critical GNU/Linux components.  That distro is Gentoo.
>>
>>    Gentoo is OK,  but sometimes a bit too "do it yourself"
>>    for practical convenience. Fine for "hobbyists" doing it
>>    for fun, but for "get the server going TODAY" edicts,
>>    maybe not so much.
>>
>>    There are a few other distros that cut out systemd too.
>>
>>    SystemD is not "evil" per-se. However it is rather opaque
>>    and an over-complication in most situations. It has a slight
>>    stench of Windows about it too. It makes you wonder just
>>    WHAT it's doing in the background - when you want to be SURE.
>>
>>    You CAN de-systemd other distros if you want. A bit messy
>>    but it CAN be done.
>>
>>> For the standalone workstation, static device nodes are extremely
>>> preferable, but certain autocratic projects, such as freedesktop.org,
>>> have made it very difficult for the do-it-yourself user (in the
>>> Jeffersonian
>>> sense) to continue in the traditional avenues of GNU/Linux deployment.

Then you can't use their stuff, period.

The Linux way is to create an alternative.

At least for servers, Gentoo or Devuan and a few
others will work just fine.

For user desktops, then it gets a little bit harder.

In MOST places though, the servers are Linux (if there
are sensible people at the helm) and the users all are
on Windows (despite all sensibility).

Oh well, you CAN emulate a PDP-11 or MicroVAX server if
you want. No systemd there :-)

(Actually, VMS was a really good OS - a global data
viewpoint even back when 300-baud dial-up was the
communications norm. I'd love to see a VMS-2022)

>>> But the developers at Gentoo have come to the rescue of DIY users
>>> by providing functional alternatives to the egregious hegemony of
>>> systemd.  Gentoo alone provides eudev and other similar forks to
>>> those who eschew the odious systemd but must keep abreast of
>>> the latest (and truly fascist) changes.
>>>
>>> We all owe a great debt to the developers at Gentoo for keeping
>>> GNU/Linux open and free in spite of the fashionable push to blindly
>>> adopt the whims of RedHat.
>>>
>
>     Hurray for Gentoo and for Devuan as well but I used systemd under

> Mageia  in its early days and as a result went to PCLinuxOS 64.
> PCLinuxOS does not have a big name but a consistent policy of packaging
> without letting systemd's nose under the tent.  A rolling release that
> lets us experience the latest updates even if we have a bit of trouble
> with them from time to time.  Linux 4.13.12, Thunderbird 91.0.1 and
> Firefox 91.0.1 and the latest of KDE's Plasma 5.  We have an Forum
> with the feel of an old fashioned BBS and a wide range of posters
> from artists in various ways, coders and testers and fools like
> me.  Free registration <https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php>
>
> bliss - boots & runs a Pretty Cool Linux Operating System aka pclinuxos.
>
>     How do they get the hurricanes to arrive in alphabetical order?...

Alien tech ! :-)

On 2021-08-20 12:17 a.m., SixOverFive wrote:
>
>   (Actually, VMS was a really good OS - a global data
>   viewpoint even back when 300-baud dial-up was the
>   communications norm. I'd love to see a VMS-2022)

VMS is still actively developed by its current owners.
https://vmssoftware.com/

Le 19-08-2021, SixOverFive <hae274b.net> a écrit :
>
> SystemD is not "evil" per-se.

Like someone else said, systemd is the worst of all init systems except
everyone else which have been tested.

> However it is rather opaque and an over-complication in most
> situations.

No more than SysV and everything else are easier because it do nothing.

> It has a slight stench of Windows about it too.

How so? It's inspired by Mac OS, but I don't see any relation with
Windows.

> It makes you wonder just WHAT it's doing in the background - when
> you want to be SURE.

That's the way you find it related with Windows? In Windows, it's really
hard to understand what happens behind the curtains. With systemd there
are a lot of tools available to help you. I strongly disagree, on this
part. It's even the reason some consider it bloated.

> You CAN de-systemd other distros if you want. A bit messy
> but it CAN be done.

From what I understood, the real issue is to get Gnome without systemd.
As I like systemd and don't like Gnome it would be a waist of time to
find out. So, I don't really care, I stay on what I heard.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 08/20/2021 02:38 PM, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
> On 2021-08-20 12:17 a.m., SixOverFive wrote:
>>
>>   (Actually, VMS was a really good OS - a global data
>>   viewpoint even back when 300-baud dial-up was the
>>   communications norm. I'd love to see a VMS-2022)
>
> VMS is still actively developed by its current owners.
> https://vmssoftware.com/

Now we just need an open-source branch ....

I still have a huge thick VMS manual in the stack
somewhere. It was "ahead of its time" in many respects.
A "big data" POV long before that phrase was invented.

Oh, and they made it all work with primitive hardware :-)

The old Arrow-tie Dilberts really knew their stuff.
Can't deny it.

No, I was never one of the Arrow-tie Dilbert-esqe
crowd - more the long-haired country boy with a
practical bent. Good money in that. If it doesn't
do that, MAKE it do that - microcontrollers up
to mainframe.

But now I'm old, time for retirement is coming fast.
Can't, maybe shouldn't, keep up with the HyperConnectiVerse.
IMHO the all-permeating cyberverse means "all-consuming,
all-destructive" - no common sense anymore. Recent events
seem to bear this out. Just wait until they hack Con-Ed
and all the major banks down to the 'Smart'phone level.
"They" CAN now ... just waiting for the moment ....

Then comes the "Great Re-Think" - but maybe too late.

One of my favorite old movies is "Colossus - The Forbin
Project" ... best intentions ...........