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computers / comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action / Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

SubjectAuthor
* Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ant
+* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ant
|`* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
| +- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ant
| `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|  +- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|  `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Spalls Hurgenson
|   +* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |`* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Spalls Hurgenson
|   | `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |  +* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|   |  |`* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |  | `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|   |  |  `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |  |   `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|   |  |    +- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Zaghadka
|   |  |    `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |  |     `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|   |  |      +- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |  |      `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ross Ridge
|   |  |       `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|   |  |        `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ross Ridge
|   |  |         `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|   |  |          `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ross Ridge
|   |  |           `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
|   |  |            `- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ross Ridge
|   |  `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Zaghadka
|   |   +* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ant
|   |   |+* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |   ||`* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ant
|   |   || `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |   ||  +- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ant
|   |   ||  `- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Justisaur
|   |   |+- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Zaghadka
|   |   |`- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Justisaur
|   |   `* Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Mike S.
|   |    `- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!Ant
|   `- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!JAB
`- Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!rms

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Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: ant...@zimage.comANT (Ant)
Subject: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Ant - Sun, 2 Jan 2022 22:37 UTC

https://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&boardid=1&threadid=243910

I still remember downloading and playing its 50 (EXE)/56 (zipped) MB
demo file that took several hours in my college dorm back in
(19(96/97)). It was worth it since I got addicted! And then, I had my
suite mate buy it for me from Fry's Electronics (RIP :~() store! Again,
worth it and oops addicting again. ;)
--
:) NY! Let's hope 2022 will B betta than da last 2! :) NY! Let's hope 2022 will B betta than da last 2! :) BD 2 Diablo game that turned 25 on eve!
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Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: ant...@zimage.comANT (Ant)
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Ant - Mon, 3 Jan 2022 22:48 UTC

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2022 16:37:41 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

> >https://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&boardid=1&threadid=243910

> >I still remember downloading and playing its 50 (EXE)/56 (zipped) MB
> >demo file that took several hours in my college dorm back in
> >(19(96/97)). It was worth it since I got addicted! And then, I had my
> >suite mate buy it for me from Fry's Electronics (RIP :~() store! Again,
> >worth it and oops addicting again. ;)

> I only played "Diablo" some time after its release. It wasn't a 'real'
> CRPG, after all; it was just some 'dumbed down' action-RPG hybrid.
> When I finally did pick it up, it was in part to see what all the hype
> was about, but probably more because of its procedural-generation
> technology.

> I can't say my opinion of the game was changed much by actually
> playing the title; its superficial narrative, lack of any real
> character interactions and bewildering (to me, anyway) focus on loot
> collecting just didn't make for a very enjoyable experience. Worse,
> its success seemed to indicate that 'traditional' CRPGs were dead in
> favor of the rush of Diablo-imitators, which left me rather sore about
> the whole thing. These days, I'd like to think I've become a bit more
> mature and can accept that different people can like different things
> (and, anyway, traditional CRPGs have had their own resurgence), but
> for a while I was rather outspoken in my dislike of the game. ;-)

> So it's great that "Diablo" has reached its silver anniversary, even
> if I can't really share in the joy. I'll get a bit more excited in a
> couple of years when "Planescape: Torment" hits its 25th, though. Now
> THERE was a game worth remembering. ;-)

For me, I loved it since I was and still am an action type of player. I
always loved Gauntlet and other types. I'm not crazy about real RPGs
like Eye of Beholder, etc. Although, I don't mind turn based these days
since I'm old and slow. :(
--
:) NY! Let's hope 2022 will B betta than da last 2, but it's seems da same so far. :(
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\ _ /
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Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: rsquires...@MOOflashMOO.net (rms)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: rms - Tue, 4 Jan 2022 01:53 UTC

>https://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&boardid=1&threadid=243910

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/83684/diablo-1-only-needed-to-sell-20-000-copies-break-even/index.html

rms

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: Mik...@nowhere.com (Mike S.)
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 by: Mike S. - Tue, 4 Jan 2022 14:07 UTC

On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:48:35 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>For me, I loved it since I was and still am an action type of player. I
>always loved Gauntlet and other types. I'm not crazy about real RPGs
>like Eye of Beholder, etc. Although, I don't mind turn based these days
>since I'm old and slow. :(

I love Diablo style RPGs. I also love dungeon crawlers like Eye of the
Beholder. What I do NOT like are RPGs with pages and pages of text to
read.* You guys can have your Planescape Torments and your Disco
Elysiums. Give me Wizardry and Might & Magic - preferably good remakes
like what was done for Bard's Tale.

* I do really like Ultima 7 though.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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 by: Ant - Wed, 5 Jan 2022 02:50 UTC

In alt.games.diablo Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:48:35 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

> >For me, I loved it since I was and still am an action type of player. I
> >always loved Gauntlet and other types. I'm not crazy about real RPGs
> >like Eye of Beholder, etc. Although, I don't mind turn based these days
> >since I'm old and slow. :(

> I love Diablo style RPGs. I also love dungeon crawlers like Eye of the
> Beholder. What I do NOT like are RPGs with pages and pages of text to
> read.* You guys can have your Planescape Torments and your Disco
> Elysiums. Give me Wizardry and Might & Magic - preferably good remakes
> like what was done for Bard's Tale.

Yes, I hate reading too. I just want to run out and kill things! ;)

> * I do really like Ultima 7 though.

I could never get into Ultima games.
--
It's Spaghetti Day!
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Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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 by: JAB - Wed, 5 Jan 2022 10:52 UTC

On 04/01/2022 14:07, Mike S. wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:48:35 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>
>> For me, I loved it since I was and still am an action type of player. I
>> always loved Gauntlet and other types. I'm not crazy about real RPGs
>> like Eye of Beholder, etc. Although, I don't mind turn based these days
>> since I'm old and slow. :(
>
> I love Diablo style RPGs. I also love dungeon crawlers like Eye of the
> Beholder. What I do NOT like are RPGs with pages and pages of text to
> read.* You guys can have your Planescape Torments and your Disco
> Elysiums. Give me Wizardry and Might & Magic - preferably good remakes
> like what was done for Bard's Tale.
>
>
>
>
> * I do really like Ultima 7 though.

Horses for courses and all that. I'm not a big fan of Diablo type games
but one thing that does irate me is that they use the RPG title. The
reason for that is that I come from a table-top RPG background and
action RPG's really struggle even to get to the stage of what AD&D
typical was in the 80's.

I should add that Disco Elysium has for me displaced Planescape Torment
as my top CRPG of all time.

In terms of TT RPG's. my main game is Call of Cthulhu (where combat is
rather deadly) and last week I played a game called Fiasco. That takes
the idea of it's all about the story to the next level as it's GM-less
and a session of played with a bare bones structure for a setting and
the motivations for each character. From that it's very much a case of
the players trying to cooperatively write what can best be described as
a Cohen brothers' movie.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: Mik...@nowhere.com (Mike S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.diablo,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Mike S. - Wed, 5 Jan 2022 14:09 UTC

On Wed, 5 Jan 2022 10:52:53 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>Horses for courses and all that. I'm not a big fan of Diablo type games
>but one thing that does irate me is that they use the RPG title. The
>reason for that is that I come from a table-top RPG background and
>action RPG's really struggle even to get to the stage of what AD&D
>typical was in the 80's.

I have no idea about tabletop RPGs. I grew up with Wizardry, Might &
Magic, Eye of the Beholder, Bard's Tale and the Gold Box games. That
is what an RPG is to me. Diablo fits that mold better then story and
text heavy games like Planescape Torment.

For the record, I do consider Planescape Torment an RPG. But I also
consider Diablo an RPG. I never thought of it as anything else.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:22 UTC

On Wed, 5 Jan 2022 10:52:53 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>Horses for courses and all that. I'm not a big fan of Diablo type games
>but one thing that does irate me is that they use the RPG title. The
>reason for that is that I come from a table-top RPG background and
>action RPG's really struggle even to get to the stage of what AD&D
>typical was in the 80's.

I am very much in agreement with this.

CRPGs were - and still are - always an inferior representation of
tabletop games, often focusing too much on combat and the numerical
aspects of the game (well, no surprise, as numbers are what computers
do best). Still, I loved the genre even from the start, because they
were a as-close-as-possible representation of tabletop as you could
get, and a quick-and-easy way to get a role-playing-game fix without
getting the whole gang back together. I happily waded through Ultima 1
and Bards Tale and Wizardry and Dragon Wars and Wasteland and all the
rest because, for their time, they were the best at what they did.

But there was - fortunately - a slow but undeniable evolution to the
genre, with the games moving forward from their kill-everything focus
to games that put as much effort into their narratives, characters and
world-building. Even though the gameplay primarily revolved of those
games (and, for the most part, modern games too) around combat,
greater emphasis was being put into other ways of working around
problems. It was nowhere nearly as sophisticated as the 'immersive
sandboxes' we'd later see with "Deus Ex" and similar games, but it was
a very welcome first step.

Taking this into account, "Diablo" was, compared to its
contemporaries, a regression in form. It's story was simplistic, it's
world-building primitive. The characters - stats aside - were
completely interchangeable. The quests were one-note hunts or fetches.
There was practically no interaction with the world outside of murder
and looting. It was the antithesis of everything CRPGs had been
building towards and, worst of all, because of its extreme popularity,
its game style quickly dominated the genre for years.

I think that, had "Diablo" been released solely as a "hot new action
game" I - like JAB - would have felt far less antipathy towards the
game at the time. Unfortunately, it was marketed as an CRPG, and for
many it set the template of what a CRPG could be. It's less that I
have a problem with "Diablo" itself than how it displaced traditional
CRPG values for so many years.

But, as I initially said, I've mellowed over the years and anyway,
'old school' CRPGs have made quite a comeback, so a continued
grievance seems pointless. But back in the day, I quite disliked what
the game represented.

>I should add that Disco Elysium has for me displaced Planescape Torment
>as my top CRPG of all time.

In truth, I'm only a partial fan of "Planescape Torment". I absolutely
adore its story of conflicting philosophies, and there are parts of
its world and some of its characters which will forever remain
memorable. Its visuals were often startling, its voice-acting was
well-done, and its soundtrack is wonderful. But its gameplay was far
less engaging, and it didn't really start to become interesting long
after most players would have given up on it. When I replay it, it is
often a struggle to keep at it, even though I realize the pay-off will
be well worth the effort.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: Mik...@nowhere.com (Mike S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Mike S. - Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:56 UTC

On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 14:22:18 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>I think that, had "Diablo" been released solely as a "hot new action
>game" I - like JAB - would have felt far less antipathy towards the
>game at the time.

You and I have a different definition of 'action game'.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: JAB - Thu, 6 Jan 2022 09:18 UTC

On 05/01/2022 19:22, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

> I think that, had "Diablo" been released solely as a "hot new action
> game" I - like JAB - would have felt far less antipathy towards the
> game at the time. Unfortunately, it was marketed as an CRPG, and for
> many it set the template of what a CRPG could be. It's less that I
> have a problem with "Diablo" itself than how it displaced traditional
> CRPG values for so many years.
>
> But, as I initially said, I've mellowed over the years and anyway,
> 'old school' CRPGs have made quite a comeback, so a continued
> grievance seems pointless. But back in the day, I quite disliked what
> the game represented.
>

That's similar to my position. I'm not sure you could say it solely
killed off more traditional style CRPG's but it certainly changed the
expectations of what made a CRPG.

As you say though there has been a partial comeback for my taste there
is still too much of a reliance on stats, abilities, character
customisation etc. Saying that, you could level the same criticism at
the world's most popular RPG, D&D.

>> I should add that Disco Elysium has for me displaced Planescape Torment
>> as my top CRPG of all time.
>
> In truth, I'm only a partial fan of "Planescape Torment". I absolutely
> adore its story of conflicting philosophies, and there are parts of
> its world and some of its characters which will forever remain
> memorable. Its visuals were often startling, its voice-acting was
> well-done, and its soundtrack is wonderful. But its gameplay was far
> less engaging, and it didn't really start to become interesting long
> after most players would have given up on it. When I replay it, it is
> often a struggle to keep at it, even though I realize the pay-off will
> be well worth the effort.
>

I found it interesting from the start and I think a lot of that was down
to it having a rather different fantasy setting. The biggest weakness I
found was near the end the story kinda runs out of steam and the focus
shifts to combat.

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From: spallshu...@gmail.com (Spalls Hurgenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:21:00 -0500
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 by: Spalls Hurgenson - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 00:21 UTC

On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 14:56:50 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>On Wed, 05 Jan 2022 14:22:18 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>>I think that, had "Diablo" been released solely as a "hot new action
>>game" I - like JAB - would have felt far less antipathy towards the
>>game at the time.

>You and I have a different definition of 'action game'.

If success in the game is more dependent on the speed of my own
reactions than anything else, I tend to quantify it as 'action'.
Alternately, if the game revolves primarily around combat or physical
actions, it also gets shoved into Action. "Diablo" would seem to
qualify either way.

Anyway, as I discussed in length previously, it really doesn't work as
an RPG; there's no real "role-playing". And since it's not really an
Adventure game or Strategy game or a Puzzle game or a Simulator game,
Action seems the best fit. It is essentially just a remake of
"Gauntlet" anyway.

But feel free to classify it as you like. Arguing about which genre in
which to stick which game is as old as the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.*
hierarchy ;-)

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: Mik...@nowhere.com (Mike S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Mike S. - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 02:35 UTC

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:21:00 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>If success in the game is more dependent on the speed of my own
>reactions than anything else,

But this is not true for Diablo. It does not matter how fast your
reactions are if your in-game character was built wrong, has lousy
loot or is underleveled for where he is. These are all the hallmarks
of a CRPG, not an action game.

>Alternately, if the game revolves primarily around combat or physical
>actions, it also gets shoved into Action. "Diablo" would seem to
>qualify either way.

That isn't right. Wizardry, Might & Magic and the gold box games all
revolve around combat. They certainly aren't action games. And those
are just RPG examples.

>But feel free to classify it as you like. Arguing about which genre in
>which to stick which game is as old as the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.*
>hierarchy ;-)

Well, if it does not interest you, just stop responding. But I do
believe I am classifying Diablo as, I believe, most would.

Anyway, my definition is this.

If player skill is all that matters, then I would call that an action
game. You said it yourself above. 'If success in the game is more
dependent on the speed of my own reactions...". Yes Spalls, that's it.
I agree completely with that definition. Your wording is better then
mine. It is no more complicated then that. That definition simply
does not apply to Diablo. That is where I disagree with you, not with
your definition.

In Diablo, your in-game character plays a *major* role in how well
you, the player, can play the game. Player reactions play a minor role
at best.

I would be genuinely surprised if Diablo was discussed in this
newsgroup back in the day and taken seriously as an action game.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:29:58 +0000
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 by: JAB - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:29 UTC

On 07/01/2022 02:35, Mike S. wrote:

> But this is not true for Diablo. It does not matter how fast your
> reactions are if your in-game character was built wrong, has lousy
> loot or is underleveled for where he is. These are all the hallmarks
> of a CRPG, not an action game.
>

That's the point I was making, if you come from a TT RPG background that
wouldn't be the hallmark of an RPG but for CRPG's it seems as long as
your character has stats, abilities, equipment etc. that you can upgrade
then that gets you the RPG label.

That doesn't mean they are bad games but instead I struggle with the
idea that CRPG can be used as a genre that covers both Disco Elysium and
Torchlight.

Of course language is fluid but I still never quite understand how games
like Diablo gained the RPG label.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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 by: Mike S. - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 14:17 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:29:58 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>That's the point I was making, if you come from a TT RPG background that
>wouldn't be the hallmark of an RPG but for CRPG's it seems as long as
>your character has stats, abilities, equipment etc. that you can upgrade
>then that gets you the RPG label.

Well yes, that is correct actually. We have been calling those CRPGs
since Ultima 0: Akalabeth at the very least. That is the definition
used. It does not matter if you like it or not. It does not matter
what RPG meant for tabletop games. We are talking about video games.
Video games are their own thing.

>That doesn't mean they are bad games but instead I struggle with the
>idea that CRPG can be used as a genre that covers both Disco Elysium and
>Torchlight.

Since I can happily play everything from the Bard's Tale to Ultima 7
and most games in between I never had this struggle. Maybe it is
because I come from a video game background for RPGs, not a tabletop
one. We can leave it at that.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: zagha...@hotmail.com (Zaghadka)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Zaghadka - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 16:10 UTC

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 21:35:49 -0500, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Mike
S. wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 19:21:00 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>If success in the game is more dependent on the speed of my own
>>reactions than anything else,
>
>But this is not true for Diablo. It does not matter how fast your
>reactions are if your in-game character was built wrong, has lousy
>loot or is underleveled for where he is. These are all the hallmarks
>of a CRPG, not an action game.

I think it's both a floor wax and a dessert topping personally.

I think that's why they're called ARPGs "Action Role-Playing Games."

There is strategy in the character builds, and it plays very differently
depending on the choices you make in character build, which is a hallmark
of RPG.

It all comes down to are you a hack-and-slash RPGer or a story based one.
It's definitely hack-and-slash, but then so is NetHack, and I would
consider that an RPG as well.

Diablo is NetHack with a little less brutal difficulty and a lot more
interactivity. Floor wax, meet dessert topping.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: now...@co.uk (JAB)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:10:24 +0000
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 by: JAB - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:10 UTC

On 07/01/2022 14:17, Mike S. wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 09:29:58 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:
>
>> That's the point I was making, if you come from a TT RPG background that
>> wouldn't be the hallmark of an RPG but for CRPG's it seems as long as
>> your character has stats, abilities, equipment etc. that you can upgrade
>> then that gets you the RPG label.
>
> Well yes, that is correct actually. We have been calling those CRPGs
> since Ultima 0: Akalabeth at the very least. That is the definition
> used. It does not matter if you like it or not. It does not matter
> what RPG meant for tabletop games. We are talking about video games.
> Video games are their own thing.
>

Well no, you and some others have been calling games RPG's while others,
including me, have looked on thinking why on earth would anyone think
games like Diablo are RPG's just because they have characters with stats
in them. There's a meaning behind the R in RPG and it's not from stats.

>> That doesn't mean they are bad games but instead I struggle with the
>> idea that CRPG can be used as a genre that covers both Disco Elysium and
>> Torchlight.
>
> Since I can happily play everything from the Bard's Tale to Ultima 7
> and most games in between I never had this struggle. Maybe it is
> because I come from a video game background for RPGs, not a tabletop
> one. We can leave it at that.

They struggle to be classed as RPG's, where's the R in it. Are you
seriously saying the Torchlight and Disco Elysium are the same type of game?

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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 by: Ant - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 18:32 UTC

Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
....
> It all comes down to are you a hack-and-slash RPGer or a story based one.
> It's definitely hack-and-slash, but then so is NetHack, and I would
> consider that an RPG as well.

> Diablo is NetHack with a little less brutal difficulty and a lot more
> interactivity. Floor wax, meet dessert topping.

DId any of you like Nethack, Rogue, etc.? I could never got into them.
--
So tired and achy even without COVID-19. Need more tree and hair cuts! 2022 isn't any better and different so far. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

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From: Mik...@nowhere.com (Mike S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
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 by: Mike S. - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 19:56 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:10:24 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>Well no, you and some others have been calling games RPG's while others,
>including me, have looked on thinking why on earth would anyone think
>games like Diablo are RPG's just because they have characters with stats
>in them. There's a meaning behind the R in RPG and it's not from stats.

The stats are there precisely so I can (P)lay the (R)ole I want to
play in the (G)ame. That is why you always find them in RPGs. They
facilitate role playing in video games.

>They struggle to be classed as RPG's, where's the R in it. Are you
>seriously saying the Torchlight and Disco Elysium are the same type of game?

Same genre, different types. It is why RPGs are sublassed. If someone
liked Disco Elysium and wanted a game like it, I would not recommend
Torchlight as an alternative.

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 by: Mike S. - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:08 UTC

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 10:10:54 -0600, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>It all comes down to are you a hack-and-slash RPGer or a story based one.
>It's definitely hack-and-slash, but then so is NetHack, and I would
>consider that an RPG as well.

This was always the basic distinction I made. I always preferred
dungeon crawlers, MMOs and action RPGs which are all hack-and-slash
types.

I like storylines in my RPGs, to be clear, but there is just a point
where there is just too much text to read through. I feel like I am
not interacting anymore, but am just a passive observer. That is not
what I want from a video game.

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 by: Mike S. - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:11 UTC

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 12:32:26 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>DId any of you like Nethack, Rogue, etc.? I could never got into them.

I am guessing I would have liked them back in the day if I ever tried
them but I never did. I don't think I would like them today due to a
combination of things, like difficulty, permadeath and usually not
very good graphics.

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 by: JAB - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:17 UTC

On 07/01/2022 19:56, Mike S. wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:10:24 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Well no, you and some others have been calling games RPG's while others,
>> including me, have looked on thinking why on earth would anyone think
>> games like Diablo are RPG's just because they have characters with stats
>> in them. There's a meaning behind the R in RPG and it's not from stats.
>
> The stats are there precisely so I can (P)lay the (R)ole I want to
> play in the (G)ame. That is why you always find them in RPGs. They
> facilitate role playing in video games.
>

And that's the whole point, stats aren't where the R comes from in RPG
however much you think they are.

>> They struggle to be classed as RPG's, where's the R in it. Are you
>> seriously saying the Torchlight and Disco Elysium are the same type of game?
>
> Same genre, different types. It is why RPGs are sublassed. If someone
> liked Disco Elysium and wanted a game like it, I would not recommend
> Torchlight as an alternative.

Those two games have nothing to do with each other in terms of
playstyle. Why on earth do you think they are the same genre?

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: zagha...@hotmail.com (Zaghadka)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2022 15:00:11 -0600
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 by: Zaghadka - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 21:00 UTC

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 12:32:26 -0600, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Ant
wrote:

>Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com> wrote:
>...
>> It all comes down to are you a hack-and-slash RPGer or a story based one.
>> It's definitely hack-and-slash, but then so is NetHack, and I would
>> consider that an RPG as well.
>
>> Diablo is NetHack with a little less brutal difficulty and a lot more
>> interactivity. Floor wax, meet dessert topping.
>
>DId any of you like Nethack, Rogue, etc.? I could never got into them.

I played Nethack obsessively for a while. Got a few ascensions. Basically
you have to go at it with behavior somewhere on the autistic spectrum to
win, though. A winning player must be possessed of extreme attention to
detail and monumental patience.

It's just so easy to get complacent and make a dumb mistake and then YASD
(Yet Another Stupid Death). Dumb mistakes are so common that YASD is a
standard term in the Nethack community.

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Yet_Another_Stupid_Death

Brutal difficulty. Going down a set of stairs while encumbered causes you
to fall and take damage. Eating while your belly is full can kill you by
choking on your food (instadeath). A lowly gnome spawns with a wand of
death and kills you. There's just a million ways to check out. RNGesus
rules all.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: zagha...@hotmail.com (Zaghadka)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Zaghadka - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 21:01 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:17:12 +0000, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, JAB
wrote:

>On 07/01/2022 19:56, Mike S. wrote:
>> On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 17:10:24 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Well no, you and some others have been calling games RPG's while others,
>>> including me, have looked on thinking why on earth would anyone think
>>> games like Diablo are RPG's just because they have characters with stats
>>> in them. There's a meaning behind the R in RPG and it's not from stats.
>>
>> The stats are there precisely so I can (P)lay the (R)ole I want to
>> play in the (G)ame. That is why you always find them in RPGs. They
>> facilitate role playing in video games.
>>
>
>And that's the whole point, stats aren't where the R comes from in RPG
>however much you think they are.

Ha! Tell that to all the min-maxers in my 3.5 group.

"Roll" playing game. :^P

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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From: Mik...@nowhere.com (Mike S.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action
Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Mike S. - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 21:42 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 20:17:12 +0000, JAB <noway@co.uk> wrote:

>Those two games have nothing to do with each other in terms of
>playstyle. Why on earth do you think they are the same genre?

Both games *are* classified as RPGs. You sound shocked that I would
place both in the same category as if I am the only one doing this.

RPGs on the computer cover a wide range of play styles. That is just
the way it is. It is the same for action games and strategy games.

Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!

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Subject: Re: Diablo 1 turned 25 on New Year's Day (2022) eve!
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 by: Ant - Fri, 7 Jan 2022 22:31 UTC

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 12:32:26 -0600, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

> >DId any of you like Nethack, Rogue, etc.? I could never got into them.

> I am guessing I would have liked them back in the day if I ever tried
> them but I never did. I don't think I would like them today due to a
> combination of things, like difficulty, permadeath and usually not
> very good graphics.

I probably would hate it back then. I hate reading. :) Now, maybe if it
had graphics since I played Atari 2600 games.

--
So tired and achy even without COVID-19. Need more tree and hair cuts! 2022 isn't any better and different so far. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
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