For the last several days, the subject newsgroup is reported as none
existent on the eternal-september news server. Does anyone have
information as to what is happening?

I'm using Thunderbird V102.6.1 as my news client.
--
Jeff Barnett

Jeff Barnett wrote:
> For the last several days, the subject newsgroup is reported as none
> existent on the eternal-september news server. Does anyone have
> information as to what is happening?
>
> I'm using Thunderbird V102.6.1 as my news client.

The whole MS hierarchy has been removed from the server.
Have a look-in eternal-september.support for lots of details as to why.

Ed

"Jeff Barnett" <jbb@notatt.com> wrote

| For the last several days, the subject newsgroup is reported as none
| existent on the eternal-september news server. Does anyone have
| information as to what is happening?
|

I just posted about this yesterday. Look two posts up. :)

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 08:12:35 -0500, "Newyana2"
<Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"Jeff Barnett" <jbb@notatt.com> wrote
>
>| For the last several days, the subject newsgroup is reported as none
>| existent on the eternal-september news server. Does anyone have
>| information as to what is happening?
>|
>
> I just posted about this yesterday. Look two posts up. :)

A minor point, but what you see as two posts up is not what everyone
sees. Not everyone sees all the same messages and not everyone sees
messages in the same order.

Yes, Microsoft has gone from newsgroups to web-based forums, and that
was a step up for those asking questions, but in my opinion it was a
big step down for those answering questions, for a variety of reasons.

For while Microsoft had a combination of web-based forums and
newsgroups, so all messages would appear in both places. So someone
could ask questions, answer them, or follow threads in either place. I
continued using the newsgroups. Alas, they stopped, and now use only
the web-based forums. I still participate there, answering questions,
but I greatly dislike the way the forums work, and spend less time
there than I did in the newsgroups.. Not only were the newsgroups much
better, but the forums themselves could be greatly improved. A few
years ago, I made several suggestions for improvement to someone at
Microsoft, but my suggestions were ignored.

Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> wrote:

> For the last several days, the subject newsgroup is reported as none
> existent on the eternal-september news server. Does anyone have
> information as to what is happening?
>
> I'm using Thunderbird V102.6.1 as my news client.

Visit the eternal-september.support newsgroup where there is a heated
argument over Ray's decision to remove ALL of the microsoft.*
newsgroups. His excuse is they are getting flooded by Google Groups
sourced spam. Under that rationale, Ray could be deleting a lot more
newsgroups instead of filtering out the GG sourced articles (like I do
with filters in my NNTP client).

"Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote

> Yes, Microsoft has gone from newsgroups to web-based forums, and that
was a step up for those asking questions, but in my opinion it was a
big step down for those answering questions, for a variety of reasons.
>

You seem to be somewhat of an anomaly as an MVP.
When MS first came up with the forums, there was a lot
of pressure to move to them, especially from some of the
MVPs. Few MVPs stayed behind. Most just disappeared to
the web forums.

It was similar with .Net. MS tried to push people into it.
An MVP named Paul Clement used to harass us daily in
the VB6 group, warning that we'd have to move eventually.

On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 13:25:05 -0500, "Newyana2"
<Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote
>
>> Yes, Microsoft has gone from newsgroups to web-based forums, and that
>was a step up for those asking questions, but in my opinion it was a
>big step down for those answering questions, for a variety of reasons.
>>
>
> You seem to be somewhat of an anomaly as an MVP.

Maybe so. As I said "in my opinion."

>When MS first came up with the forums, there was a lot
>of pressure to move to them, especially from some of the
>MVPs. Few MVPs stayed behind. Most just disappeared to
>the web forums.

Yes, I know. Very few stayed behind. There soon wasn't much choice

"Newyana2" <Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote in
news:trjjid$1i091$1@dont-email.me:

> "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote
>
>> Yes, Microsoft has gone from newsgroups to web-based
>> forums, and that
> was a step up for those asking questions, but in my opinion
> it was a big step down for those answering questions, for a
> variety of reasons.
>>
>
> You seem to be somewhat of an anomaly as an MVP.
> When MS first came up with the forums, there was a lot
> of pressure to move to them, especially from some of the
> MVPs. Few MVPs stayed behind. Most just disappeared to
> the web forums.

From my experience, when I'm troubleshooting Windows, and a search hit is for a web
forum at answers.microsoft.com, and the answer is from someone that proclaims they
are 'from' MS and usually some type of MVP...

....I can be assured that what they offer seems like just a boiler-plate copy and paste and
there's almost no chance in hell that they will provide an actual answer that solves the
issue.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 21:19:01 +0000, DanS
<t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote:

>"Newyana2" <Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote in
>news:trjjid$1i091$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote
>>
>>> Yes, Microsoft has gone from newsgroups to web-based
>>> forums, and that
>> was a step up for those asking questions, but in my opinion
>> it was a big step down for those answering questions, for a
>> variety of reasons.
>>>
>>
>> You seem to be somewhat of an anomaly as an MVP.
>> When MS first came up with the forums, there was a lot
>> of pressure to move to them, especially from some of the
>> MVPs. Few MVPs stayed behind. Most just disappeared to
>> the web forums.

Alas, yes.

>From my experience, when I'm troubleshooting Windows, and a search hit is for a web
>forum at answers.microsoft.com, and the answer is from someone that proclaims they
>are 'from' MS and usually some type of MVP...

I am no longer an MVP, but I was from 2003 to 2020. And by the way,
nobody is "from" Microsoft and also an MVP. Microsoft employees can
not be MVPs.

>...I can be assured that what they offer seems like just a boiler-plate copy and paste and
>there's almost no chance in hell that they will provide an actual answer that solves the
>issue.

Two points:

1. There a number of Microsoft contractors (usually, but not always,
in India) who are exactly what you describe. Note that they are
contractors, not employees. Microsoft does a very poor job of weeding
out the poor, useless ones.

Yes, with an occasional exception, what they post is useless.

2. Not all MVPs are great, but most are very knowledgeable and very
helpful.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote in
news:7h720id4tc97t4vabr8655vohqelbb7o70@4ax.com:

>>From my experience, when I'm troubleshooting Windows, and a
>>search hit
> is for a web
>>forum at answers.microsoft.com, and the answer is from
>>someone that
> proclaims they
>>are 'from' MS and usually some type of MVP...
>
>
> I am no longer an MVP, but I was from 2003 to 2020. And by
> the way, nobody is "from" Microsoft and also an MVP.
> Microsoft employees can not be MVPs.

I seem to recall that, though. But they appear to be in some official capacity, even if it
doesn't state that specifically, that's the vibe one gets.

>>...I can be assured that what they offer seems like just a
>>boiler-plate
> copy and paste and
>>there's almost no chance in hell that they will provide an
>>actual answer
> that solves the
>>issue.
>
>
> Two points:
>
> 1. There a number of Microsoft contractors (usually, but
> not always, in India) who are exactly what you describe.
> Note that they are contractors, not employees.

While that is technically true, as a contractor, they still represent MS and get paid to do
so, to the random stranger on the internet.

> Microsoft
> does a very poor job of weeding out the poor, useless ones.
>
> Yes, with an occasional exception, what they post is
> useless.
>
> 2. Not all MVPs are great, but most are very knowledgeable
> and very helpful.

My experience with most was more so in the VB6 world years ago, of which many
were stellar.

DanS wrote:
> "Newyana2" <Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote in
> news:trjjid$1i091$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote
>>
>>> Yes, Microsoft has gone from newsgroups to web-based
>>> forums, and that
>> was a step up for those asking questions, but in my opinion
>> it was a big step down for those answering questions, for a
>> variety of reasons.
>>>
>>
>> You seem to be somewhat of an anomaly as an MVP.
>> When MS first came up with the forums, there was a lot
>> of pressure to move to them, especially from some of the
>> MVPs. Few MVPs stayed behind. Most just disappeared to
>> the web forums.
>
> From my experience, when I'm troubleshooting Windows, and a search hit is for a web
> forum at answers.microsoft.com, and the answer is from someone that proclaims they
> are 'from' MS and usually some type of MVP...
>
> ...I can be assured that what they offer seems like just a boiler-plate copy and paste and
> there's almost no chance in hell that they will provide an actual answer that solves the
> issue.

Although I've never posted a question to any of those MS forums, I do
often search for answers in them. What I've most often observed is what
you're describing. Quite often, the answer is provided by a non-MVP.

--
John C.

"DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote

| > 2. Not all MVPs are great, but most are very knowledgeable
| > and very helpful.
| | My experience with most was more so in the VB6 world years ago, of which
many
| were stellar.
|

Yes. And very generous with their time. Randy Birch
even stopped by recently. (Maybe it was a rainy day
at the assisted living golf course. :)

I know what you mean about the web forums.
They seem to be functioning under a directive to never
say anything that could be interpreted as critical of
MS products...

Q: Every time I open Explorer, the taskbar disappears. What gives?

Very Official Microsoft Team Member: Hi, and thank you
for contributing to the Microsoft family. Do you have a problem
using genuine Microsoft products?

Q: Yes, I do. Every time I open Explorer, the taskbar disappears.
What gives?

Very Official Microsoft Team Member: Hi. Thanks so much for your
response. Please list your operating system, computer specs,
social security number, and mother's maiden name.

Q: [long list of irrelevant specs.....]

Very Official Microsoft Team Member: Hi. And thank you. I
appreciate our relationship so much. I'm glad you posted. If
you post again in the future, please be sure to have your
computer's specs so we can figure out which OEM to blame
for your troubles. Also ensure that you're using only
Genuine (R) Microsoft Software. Also, note -- if you post 7
or more gushy compliments of Microsoft you can win a
medal icon next to your Official (R) Microsoft (TM) Account
Name. If you get 5 medals you achieve Super Duper status.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 15:17:01 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
> 2. Not all MVPs are great, but most are very knowledgeable and very
> helpful.
>

That's been my experience.

When people are searching for something technical about MS software,
particularly Office, I suggest including MVP in the search terms to
give priority to articles by MVPs.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 22:30:41 +0000, DanS
<t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote in
>news:7h720id4tc97t4vabr8655vohqelbb7o70@4ax.com:
>
>>>From my experience, when I'm troubleshooting Windows, and a
>>>search hit
>> is for a web
>>>forum at answers.microsoft.com, and the answer is from
>>>someone that
>> proclaims they
>>>are 'from' MS and usually some type of MVP...
>>
>>
>> I am no longer an MVP, but I was from 2003 to 2020. And by
>> the way, nobody is "from" Microsoft and also an MVP.
>> Microsoft employees can not be MVPs.
>
>I seem to recall that, though. But they appear to be in some official capacity, even if it
>doesn't state that specifically, that's the vibe one gets.

Yes, with some of them, But they are not.

>>>...I can be assured that what they offer seems like just a
>>>boiler-plate
>> copy and paste and
>>>there's almost no chance in hell that they will provide an
>>>actual answer
>> that solves the
>>>issue.
>>
>>
>> Two points:
>>
>> 1. There a number of Microsoft contractors (usually, but
>> not always, in India) who are exactly what you describe.
>> Note that they are contractors, not employees.
>
>While that is technically true, as a contractor, they still represent MS and get paid to do
>so, to the random stranger on the internet.

To me, they do not represent Microsoft, and I usually ignore
everything they post. Most of them are useless.

>> Microsoft
>> does a very poor job of weeding out the poor, useless ones.
>>
>> Yes, with an occasional exception, what they post is
>> useless.
>>
>> 2. Not all MVPs are great, but most are very knowledgeable
>> and very helpful.
>
>My experience with most was more so in the VB6 world years ago, of which many
>were stellar.

On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 08:11:16 -0500, "Newyana2"
<Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote:

>"DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@r.o.a.d.r.u.n.n.e.r.c.o.m> wrote
>
>| > 2. Not all MVPs are great, but most are very knowledgeable
>| > and very helpful.
>|
>| My experience with most was more so in the VB6 world years ago, of which
>many
>| were stellar.
>|
>
> Yes. And very generous with their time. Randy Birch
>even stopped by recently. (Maybe it was a rainy day
>at the assisted living golf course. :)
>
> I know what you mean about the web forums.
>They seem to be functioning under a directive to never
>say anything that could be interpreted as critical of
>MS products...

In all my years as an MVP, I never received such a directive, and I
don't know any other MVP who did. I have always spoken my opinion
directly--sometimes very critical (for example, of Edge), sometimes
complimentary (for example, of Windows 11), depending on the product.
I've always felt that if Microsoft didn't like my opinions, they were
free to remove my MVP status. Being free to speak my mind was always
more important to me than being an MVP

> Q: Every time I open Explorer, the taskbar disappears. What gives?
>
>Very Official Microsoft Team Member: Hi, and thank you
>for contributing to the Microsoft family. Do you have a problem
>using genuine Microsoft products?
>
>Q: Yes, I do. Every time I open Explorer, the taskbar disappears.
>What gives?
>
>Very Official Microsoft Team Member: Hi. Thanks so much for your
>response. Please list your operating system, computer specs,
>social security number, and mother's maiden name.
>
>Q: [long list of irrelevant specs.....]
>
>Very Official Microsoft Team Member: Hi. And thank you. I
>appreciate our relationship so much. I'm glad you posted. If
>you post again in the future, please be sure to have your
>computer's specs so we can figure out which OEM to blame
>for your troubles. Also ensure that you're using only
>Genuine (R) Microsoft Software. Also, note -- if you post 7
>or more gushy compliments of Microsoft you can win a
>medal icon next to your Official (R) Microsoft (TM) Account
>Name. If you get 5 medals you achieve Super Duper status.

LOL!

On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 07:15:37 -0800, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Thu, 02 Mar 2023 15:17:01 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
>> 2. Not all MVPs are great, but most are very knowledgeable and very
>> helpful.
>>
>
>That's been my experience.
>
>When people are searching for something technical about MS software,
>particularly Office, I suggest including MVP in the search terms to
>give priority to articles by MVPs.

That's not a terrible thing to do, but it doesn't let you see
responses from many non-MVPs (or ex-MVPs like me) who are also very
knowledgeable and very helpful.

And also not all MVPs are great. In particular, there was one MVP
years ago (I'll refrain from mentioning his name) whose responses were
almost always terrible, and sucked up to Microsoft in a big way.

On Fri, 03 Mar 2023 09:51:35 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 07:15:37 -0800, Stan Brown
> <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > [quoted text muted]
> >
> >When people are searching for something technical about MS software,
> >particularly Office, I suggest including MVP in the search terms to
> >give priority to articles by MVPs.
>
>
> That's not a terrible thing to do, but it doesn't let you see
> responses from many non-MVPs (or ex-MVPs like me) who are also very
> knowledgeable and very helpful.

Perhaps years ago.

But nowadays, even with the plus sign, Google results can include
pages that lack some, or occasionally all, of the search terms.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

>In all my years as an MVP, I never received such a directive, and I
>don't know any other MVP who did. I have always spoken my opinion
>directly--sometimes very critical (for example, of Edge), sometimes
>complimentary (for example, of Windows 11), depending on the product.
>I've always felt that if Microsoft didn't like my opinions, they were
>free to remove my MVP status. Being free to speak my mind was always
>more important to me than being an MVP

I was an MVP for 10 years or so, and I couldn't agree more. We were
never told to hype Microsoft products, we were being rewarded for
helping people in the MS newsgroups (I didn't follow when they moved
to web forums.) All - or at least all I knew of - would criticize MS
t=when the occasion called for it.

--
Tim Slattery
tim <at> risingdove <dot> com

On Sat, 04 Mar 2023 12:10:21 -0500, Tim Slattery <tim@risingdove.com>
wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
>
>>In all my years as an MVP, I never received such a directive, and I
>>don't know any other MVP who did. I have always spoken my opinion
>>directly--sometimes very critical (for example, of Edge), sometimes
>>complimentary (for example, of Windows 11), depending on the product.
>>I've always felt that if Microsoft didn't like my opinions, they were
>>free to remove my MVP status. Being free to speak my mind was always
>>more important to me than being an MVP
>
>I was an MVP for 10 years or so,

Yes, I know. I might even have a picture or two of you taken at
summits. I have a lot of pictures from several summits.

There's at least one other ex-MVP here, but I won't mention his name.
If he wants to, he can identify himself as an ex-MVP.

>and I couldn't agree more. We were
>never told to hype Microsoft products,

Right. One of the things I like the most about Microsoft. They could
have done that, but they didn't.

>we were being rewarded for
>helping people in the MS newsgroups

"Rewarded" is too strong a word, in my opinion . The rewards were
(still are?) pretty slight.

>(I didn't follow when they moved
>to web forums.)

I did, even thought I think the web sites of the forums are very
poorly designed. There are several ways they could easily be greatly
improved, and I've passed my recommendations on to Microsoft employees
at the annual summits several times. My recommendation have been
ignored.

I still go to the Windows forums, now and then, and look for
opportunities to help people when I can, but I do it less often than I
used to. It takes much longer to browse the forums than to use Usenet.

>All - or at least all I knew of - would criticize MS
>when the occasion called for it.

I knew at least one who wouldn't. As I said," And also not all MVPs
are great. In particular, there was one MVP years ago (I'll refrain
from mentioning his name) whose responses were almost always terrible,
and sucked up to Microsoft in a big way."

I'm sure there were others like him who I didn't know.